What would your response be to a post about reparations for slavery?

[itzamirakul]

This is my response to a post where the poster felt he/she would be penalized monetarily for oppressing blacks, something he/she did not do.

I would like to have your additions or suggestions regarding the appropriate Pro-African American response to this question.
*******


The issue for reparations for African Americans is probably no more complex than the issue of Jews seeking reparations for their treatment at the hands of the German people during WWII or that of the American Japanese who received reparations from the American government. It is the payment of money or some other form of restitution in payment for unfair, unequal and unusually cruel treatment.

Could you tell me even one thing that the American black leadership has said that makes you feel that their discussions are not "really based on anything remotely resembling a cogent reasoned plan to address the issue fairly and justly?"

You say that your family moved to NY in the late 1880s and that you had nothing to do with slavery or oppressing blacks, so why should you be penalized monetarily? Please consider the following:

1. From what I understand, African American leadership is not requesting individual payments of money to be made to each American black person. Therefore, no American citizen would be penalized monetarily. Rather, it has been suggested that some sort of financial arrangement be made to ensure college educations for black students, or perhaps some sort of income tax relief for a period of time - but certainly NOT ACTUAL PAYMENTS OF DOLLARS IN THE POCKET. So in no way are they requesting money from your pocket.

2. Slavery ended by law in NY in 1824, but was not fully implemented until 1827. In actuality, African Americans throughout this country were second-class citizens, living under a system of Jim Crow and institutionalized racism until 1963, so in that way, by participating in the segregation practices that were predominant in America, your family and perhaps even you, depending on your age, DID participate in the oppression of blacks. Perhaps you did not mean to do so, and probably never even thought of it like that, but you did participate in the oppression of blacks because that was "just the way things were in those days." Unless your ancestors and perhaps yourself were active in refuting such racial benefits to yourselves based on your skin color, unless they were abolitionists and unless you have been personally involved in the on-going battles for civil rights, then, yes, your family did benefit and you continue to benefit from the oppression of blacks, even today.

3. I am assuming that your family did not actively participate in the internment of Japanese during WWII either, yet they allowed that internment by going along with the government when that plan was implemented. Yet, for whatever restitution those Japanese families finally received, your family, and perhaps you, were a part of repaying because the money came from American tax dollars.

From what I understand, the proponents of reparations for slavery are requesting the same sort of policy - they are not requesting that you somehow be charged extra dollars to pay for those reparations. Today we are spending billions of dollars to wage war with a country for absolutely NO REASON. There is absolutely no reason to spend MILLIONS of dollars each month and BILLIONS of dollars each year to fight the Iraqis in a never-ending war. It would seem that Americans would prefer to spend those killing-dollars to instead finally settle its debt to black America.

For sure, the majority of today's Germans did not participate in the holocaust, nor was today's German government the cause of such cruel and inhumane treatment, but international courts have ruled that today's Germany is in some way responsible and must pay for the behavior of its' forefathers and thus many Jewish families have received various forms of reparations. They have been paid for confiscated property, art treasures, etc.

4. When your family immigrated to America in 1880, they arrived in a country that had largely been built on the backs of black slave labor...UNPAID black slave labor. Although your ancestors may have worked long and hard in order to succeed in America, they enjoyed the fruits of white privilege from the time of their arrival and you, their descendant and heir continue to enjoy those privileges (assuming from your post that you are white.) Just think of the many historical structures still in use today that were originally built by slave labor. Did you know that Wall Street itself was constructed by unpaid black slave labor? And Wall Street certainly plays strongly into all of our lives. Black slave labor allowed white leisure time...time to plan, time to create, all with the strong black bodies to implement the foundation for those plans and creations. Yes, the most ongoing gift that black slave labor provided was white leisure time. The gift that just keeps on giving.


Edit to add link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1749336#1750580

[bliss_eternal]

1. I don't think there is one appropriate response

Quote:
I would like to have your additions or suggestions regarding the appropriate Pro-African American response to this question.

There are probably as many different appropriate responses as there are different African Americans. I say this because I don't believe in the concept that all members of a particular sex or ethnic group, think or feel the same way on any given issue. I believe there is room for a variance of ideas, perspectives and points of view. Many of those may support each other, some won't--but they are all still valid in my view.

I don't personally have a view on the issue of reparations, so hopefully someone else will come along and share their perspective on this with you. :)

[itzamirakul]

2. The subject of reparations is one that seems to simmer just

below the surface for many people of different races. It is no longer just a black-white question, because now, there are citizens whose forefathers were not in America at the time of slavery and they feel imposed upon when the subject is raised. Hence, my post in another thread, which I then brought here hoping to stimulate some discussion.

It is a subject that many African Americans are actively involved in attempting to settle but very seldom discussed on message boards with any seriousness.

I thought I would bring it to the table, not to try to get a "unified" answer, but rather to generate a real discussion of the opinions of the many different African Americans that you mention.

Sometimes I just get so tired of discussing black hair and black celebrities and I would like to see us discuss some topics that have meaning for our coming generations.

But thanks for responding...your post may be the only one I get on this topic. :)

[bliss_eternal]

5. I understand and appreciate

your desire to have an intelligent, open and honest discussion that doesn't disintegrate into hate-filled accusations and defenses. I've given up on having such conversations in GD, GDP and most other areas of DU. Sad but true.

I see in my response, I didn't really express that so thought I would let you know.

I am sincerely sorry if I came across as not being in support of your post or discussion, as this was not the case at all. :) :hi: I thought you brought up some great points, and feel badly that such a thought provoking post feel upon blind eyes, so to speak. People in the main areas of DU just aren't capable...sadly.

I'm sure you'll get more discussion about it. There are a lot of interesting, thoughtful posters in this area. Most just tend to visit less frequently--so it may take a while for people to see.

[itzamirakul]

9. Thanks, bliss...I guess we both sort of misunderstood each other's

reasoning there for a moment.

I'm grateful that you took the time to respond.

[goclark]

3. I gave my thoughts about Reparations

at DU last summer.

I was SHOCKED at the hate filled responses, such HATE I have never seen here before or since. I thought I was in Freeper Land.

Just remembered, Tookie Williams was another battle royal.

I do recall a recent thread that was a bit better. There were a few that even thought it could be a good idea.

I tried to do a search for it but no luck.

[bliss_eternal]

4. Wasn't there some talk of that thread

in this forum? I don't recall entering it myself, but I seem to recall some talk of it. :scared: It sounds horrible!

The Tookie discussions were really disturbing. I fought almost the entire night of his execution with some loser that seemed to feel rioting was going to incite. :eyes: The very suggestion was beyond insulting, which of course I shared on a few threads. Doing so seemed to shut a few people up, thankfully.

The idea that people would tear up their own communities because Tookie was dying...:eyes: Then of course it was compared to Rodney King and those riots. They obviously had no understanding of the riots after Rodney King, or why they occured. Difficult to explain things to people that already have their minds made up about things.

[itzamirakul]

10. I think I understand how you feel, goclark...it's sort of like burnout

after you spend days trying to explain your own position on a topic only to be shocked by the often seemingly cruel inner beliefs of those that you had previously considered your colleagues.

In a way, what you are saying holds true for some of the Jewish posters on DU right now. Some of them are being viciously attacked or feel like they are being attacked by posts that do not support the same position on the ME conflict that they hold.

I bring this up because I feel that I understand how they feel, yet I don't want to lie about my own beliefs in the situation. I've been trying to explain that disapproval of policy does not equate disapproval of the people. So, when we discuss topics like reparations or slavery or discrimination, there are others who believe the opposite and often seem racist to us. Maybe we could just say (to each other) I believe we should...or I don't believe we should....or "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn...because...

For the most part we have one common denominator...we are all supposed to be Democrats and if we intend to have SOME kind of decent life in this country, we are going to have to try to remember that our basic goal/ideology is supposed to be the same.

My thoughts on reparations are that they should be paid...but I am willing that they be paid through educational opportunities. There are many African Americans in this country now, whose ancestors did not suffer the indignities of slavery and I sort of understand that argument.

[wildeyed]

6. We live in a collective.

If became a citizen last week or your ancestors came on the Mayflower, you are now part of the collective. I don't think it matters a whit whether your ancestors owned slaves or not. As part of the collective you have responsibilities, and some of those encompass responsibility for the wrongs committed by the collective at an earlier time. Slavery was a grievous wrong. Just because it happened a long time ago doesn't mean that we don't still owe a huge debt.

Myself, I don't actually know that much about the Reparations issue, but I would love for there to be a serious ongoing dialog in this country about it. But we can't even have a civil discussion about it here at DU where supposedly we are mostly left of center, I don't know how we could do in the population at large.

[itzamirakul]

11. I really like the "live in a collective" response. I had never thought

of it that way and I usually base my argument on the fact that those who are not African American benefited from and continue to benefit from the labor and contributions of those men and women who were held in bondage.

I know that there are groups that work on nothing but gaining reparations for African Americans but I don't belong to any of them. I would hope that perhaps someone at DU could enlighten us a bit more the topic here on the AA Forum, where there won't be such vitriolic posting traffic.

[Brewman_Jax]

7. Having read past threads on this topic

and made the unfortunate choice of participating in one, society is in severe denial. They can't even agree that black people are still discriminated against in the 21st century, much less acknowledge the evil deeds of the past. If anything, there should be reparations for the time of Jim Crow segregation. Black people had to pay taxes for services never received (this was one of the bullet points in the Brown vs. Board of Education case), government at all levels colluded with private industry, for example, the insurance industry and the prison chain gangs hired out for private employers.

From what I've seen in general, civil discussions are out of the question. :(

[itzamirakul]

12. Do the uncivil discussions take place on this forum or only if we

post these controversial (to some) topics on GD?

One reason that I brought the topic to this forum is because there are some African Americans who do NOT feel that reparations should be paid and I guess I just wanted to hear some reasoning on both sides from African Americans or anyone else interested enough to come to this forum.

I would like to see a bulleted list of ALL the reasons that reparations should be paid. Maybe we could all contribute to such a list. You have started us out pretty well with the Brown v. BD of Ed point.

The topic is like anything else of importance. If WE don't make it important, then no one else will either.

Democratic leaders are saying that the reason they don't "fight back" about the rw bias in the media and all of the other GOP tricks is because they will be accused of being "whiners." Our leaders say that we don't CARE about these things, so that's why they don't do anything. I'm just trying to be a provacatuer and stimulate some outrage about a couple of topics because outrage means energy and energy will perhaps lead us to action.

[bliss_eternal]

8. How do you all feel about the "affirmative action" argument...

...and of course, welfare? I seem to recall some talk of those issues enevitably being brought up whenever reperations is discussed.

Trying to keep your discussion going, itzamirakul! ;) Hope this is helpful!

[itzamirakul]

13. Bless you, bliss! Keep helping me...I really appreciate it...

I think affirmative action was a great start on paying reparations, but in some strange way, whites were able to convince the courts that despite the fact that the caucasian race has been favored in the American education and business arenas since the birth of the nation, nevertheless they were being discriminated against. And, apparently it worked.

I'm sure that every reader of this post is well aware of the fact that people like Colin Powell, Clarence Thomas and Condi Rice got their toes in the door thanks to Affirmative Action. I think Powell is the only one who still admits to supporting the idea. The other two don't even mention it.

It definitely is/was a program that should still be in effect.

Welfare...well, now..I saw absolutely too much fraud going on in that program for many years. I know people who didn't even live in this country on a regular basis,(people who came back and forth every four months or so) get monthly checks and one family member who lived here and looked just like the one who did not live here cashed the check every month because they looked the same on the photo id. That infuriated me. But when I questioned the one who lived here, she said she believed the money came from Washington. So I asked her how Washington got the money and her response was, "They print it." She had no concept of gold backing paper money. She also did not realize until I told her, that her own tax dollars were going to pay the money her relative was collecting fraudulently.

Another thing about welfare that infuriates me is WELFARE'S BLACK FACE.

Think about every commercial of picture ad you have ever seen that talks about some welfare prgram from food stamps to health to poverty and the children you see are ALWAYS black with only a mother.
The implication is that ONLY blacks are on welfare.And that there are no black men in these families. In reality, there are and have always been far more whites on welfare than blacks.

If you watch Judge Judy you will see that white welfare is often called "disability" and is usually paid to people who are bipolar. If that many white folks are bipolar, then I'm really scared.

If you go into the welfare offices here in Manhattan you will see mostly Hispanics and blacks and Asians. But there are welfare offices in Brooklyn in totally Jewish and Russian and other European neighborhoods. Some of those coming from Russia have been seen driving up to the welfare office in limos. Now that story was in the newspaper about a year or so ago. So it is grossly unfair to paint welfare with a black face, but do we complain in a massive letter writing or telephone campaign to the offending programs that place the ads? A big resounding NO!