A couple of things that annoy me when discussing race or racism

[Raineyb]

This seems to happen every time there's a discussion on race. Actually, to be accurate, this seems to happen every time there's a discussion on racism and it happens without fail. There's a racist incident that gets the attention of people on the board, there's a link (or picture whatever) to said item. Without fail there is always someone who will declare with authority (that they don't have) that the item, incident whatever is not racist and people are being overwrought or PC. This person is always without fail white.

:rant:

<rant>

I am sick and tired of white people telling me that something is not racist as though they would know better than I would. I am especially sick of it happening when something is so obvious that a blind man can see it. (Literally as our Governor is legally blind!) If 99% of people say something is one way and you're part of the 1% that says it's the other way that doesn't necessarily make you a free thinker. Sometimes it just makes you wrong. I would suggest that these people learn the difference but they're generally too arrogant to concede that they may be wrong and generally delight in telling everyone else how stupid they are.

I am also sick and tired of having to be the one to make someone feel "comfortable" when it comes to race. Why the hell should I? Bigots and those who defend them are jackasses. I do not feel as though I am obligated to make them feel comfortable by not calling them jackasses just because it would hurt their little feelings. Will calling these people jackasses make them uncomfortable? Probably but then again, I'm not comfortable when I have to walk in a room of strange white people and figure out if I'm around decent folks or ignorant bigots. I'm not comfortable when as the only black person around people look at me to explain something as though I am the bloody spokeswoman for the entire black community. I am not comfortable when the only time some people want to talk about the black community is when they're discussing some sort of pathology as though that's all there is to the black community. And I am certainly not comfortable when some people tell me that they know better than I what is or is not racism when they have not had to deal with racism as it has manifested in this country! Why do you assume I am at all inclined to make you comfortable and how is lying to you about your level of dickishness supposed to be conducive to an honest conversation?

</rant>

Eric Holder is right about this country being cowards when it comes to discussing race in this country. Unfortunately he also said something about making people feel comfortable so said discussion can take place. I leave it to you to guess which part of that speech will be quoted the most on this board.

Sorry about the rant but I needed to get this off my chest and frankly this is the only venue I thought would appreciate it.

Regards

[Number23]

1. Love it!

I think part of the problem is that large numbers of white people in this country have been programmed to think that they are intellectually superior to EVERYONE. So if a non-white person disagrees with you and says something that is the polar opposite of something that you believe, that person simply must be wrong.

On the other hand, I think there are just alot of ignorant people, unexposed people, and just plain out jackasses in the world. And alot of them post on DU.

I take heart though because there are also many white people who perhaps may not know the BEST way to proceed in terms of racial issues, but they are genuinely interested in learning and trying. I've seen about a dozen OPs on that idiotic cartoon in the NY Post denouncing it and just about all of them are written by whites, or so I believe. So, I do believe that there is some hope. Hell, what other choice do we have but to have hope anyway??

[Raineyb]

5. So true

I do find some hope that there are so many who do seem to get it and sincerely try. And you're right about the dozens of post written by white people. That was good to see.

What gets to me is that the ones who don't do not know when to just STFU. They seem to just want to go on and on and on trying to explain why everyone is wrong and they alone are right.

It's like watching Don Quixote tilting at windmills. He thinks he's a gentleman on a magnificent steed fighting a giant; but when you look at him you see a broken down old man battling a windmill on an old nag.

I'm sure things will get better eventually. I'll hold on to that.

Regards

[firedupdem]

2. Great Rant

I agree with every word you said. The last few days here have been amazing. Some of the comments really let us know that racism is alive and well. If somebody tells me they are offended, then dammit they are offended. But when it's our issues is negotiating time.

Then I watch Hardball today and hear the racist crap he spewed today. What a week.

[Brewman_Jax]

3. So true

The number and tone of the posts show how right he is.

[bliss_eternal]

4. self delete...

try to post later...out of time.
:hi:

[bliss_eternal]

6. Good post...

I think I get more ticked off (these days) by the people that claim they share gender, ethnic background (or whatever status is being slurred, discriminated against in the topic thread) who announce they aren't offended, insulted, don't find something racist, sexist, and how dare anyone else think that it is.

Based on your post, it doesn't seem you've encountered any of these members, yet. You're fortunatate, in my opinion. I sincerely hope you don't. But I've been around this board long enough to think you probably will. Just wanted you to know it exists, so you won't be completely surprised (and shocked) when it happens.

*The Latino that is just fine with inherently racist immigration discussions, and comments.
-The black guy that LOVES the n word (calls himself and 'his boys' that) and can't understand why you need to denounce it.
*The woman that defends men that rape, thinking the poor little lads were just seduced by some super slutty vixen of 12, and yeah--someone women do ask to be raped. :puke:

Being confronted by people like this, can make it challenging to address those needing to pull their heads out of their asses, but it's not impossible. ;) But it is maddening, and can feel a bit like being in one of those carnival fun houses--where nothing is fun (or funny), everything looks distorted and makes you nauseous.

[Behind the Aegis]

7. It is common in a number of threads.

The Rick Warren situation was an excellent example of what you are discussing. It even spawned a new term "poutage." Anytime some starts (or ends) with I can't be X-ist because I belong to X group, there will be a situation.

[Kind of Blue]

8. Hi, I'd like to address this part of your post:

:hi: "Unfortunately he also said something about making people feel comfortable so said discussion can take place."

I think this is the key to part of the cowardice Holder speaks about. I was listening to a segment of NPR's All Things Considered today and it was the Holder speech discussed by Joe Klein, a Time magazine columnist, and Professor Michael Eric Dyson of Georgetown University.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=100939348
Click on Listen Now

The conversation between the two men started to breakdown when out of nowhere Klein became agitated that Dyson had not acknowledged that we as country have progressed very far.

I have to agree with Prof. Dyson, the topic was not how far we've come but the meaning of Holder's speech, in so far as the need to be able to talk about where we are now to get to the next level. I think it's obvious and a matter of fact that doesn't need to be acknowledge every single time race relations is discussed. But Klein needed that acknowledgment (comfort?) in order to move on.

Very interesting. It just makes me wonder that when blacks and whites discuss race if somewhere in the backs of many white minds is a little phrase that goes, "be grateful because you've come so far." And we are thinking and saying, "we have not come far enough."

Please have a listen. Dyson handled the demand from Klein very well, IMHO. The whole piece is well done.

[Raineyb]

9. A very good listen

I always enjoy seeing, or as was the case this time, hearing Professor Dyson when he's allowed to finish a sentence. He was once again absolutely correct. The speech was about Mr. Holder's statement and the seemingly obligatory acknowledgment of how far we come wasn't really the point of the discussion although Mr. Klein did harp on it. Prof. Dyson was very good and was allowed to finish a sentence which was not the case in the Hardball interview with the puke-worthy Patrick Buchanan. (I have been rather suspicious of how his satellite feed cut out every time he was making a point.)

This does bring me to a peeve about gratitude. Societies have norms for how people are supposed to be treated when said treatment is considered decent. For several generations, our country had decided that black people were not worthy of such treatment. Now by law (although not necessarily by practice) black people are supposed to be able to expect to be treated as decently as any white person in this country. However, whenever discussions come up about rate you get the white person in the discussion (in this case Joe Klein) starts talking about acknowledgment that things have improved. I always wonder what the hell that has to do with anything. Do these people expect women to be grateful to their husbands for not beating them? Women aren't supposed to be beaten by their husbands, it certainly takes a lot of gall to expect gratitude for the basic minimum of decent behavior.

Yes, we don't have the blatant discrimination declared by law in this country but you know what, the fact that that is no longer a problem is not something to brag about. Not using the law to treat a portion of your citizenry as less than human is something you're supposed to do as a society. You should not expect a reward for finally doing the right thing. (Especially when you did it kicking and screaming to boot!) That's like my nephew expecting me to say "good boy" when he doesn't hit his sister. He's not supposed to hit his sister I'm not going to reward him for that.

So while I greatly appreciate that the law doesn't force me into black only fountains and (in theory) into neighborhoods where I know that the services won't be as good as that of the white folks on the other side of town, that fact that this does not happen by force of law anymore is not something for which you should get accolades. I expect not to be treated differently because of the color of my skin. You are not owed any bloody gratitude for behaving properly. That really needs to be emphasized in my not so humble opinion, when they have these discussions on race on the TV.

Regards

[noiretextatique]

10. a big part of the problem is ignorance

i will call it willful ignorance. many white people believe the magical negro version of american history, i.e., white people evolved because of the noble struggles of people of color. they believe this mythical evolution of spirit and consciousness is the REAL reason for the "progress" that constantly has be to acknowledged. it wasn't black people marching in the streets or organizing sit-ins, or the NAACP filing lawsuits, or black people making demands to the white power structure...nope. it was the munificence of white america that gave us our rights, hence the reason why we must be eternally grateful.

great rant, Raineyb :applause: i am sooooooooooo there.


a few weeks ago, our CFO told a room full of people of color to "use correct grammar" when communicating with staff. i found his comment insulting, offensive, and racist, so much so that i considered filing a complaint with HR.
i was still really anger about that comment when i got off work and met a friend for a drink. he's a real interesting type of jackass in that he has black ancestors, but his branch of the family decided to pass. anyway...i was telling him about this incident, and he actually said this to me:

"Well, I would be a better judge of whether that comment was racist or not because of my history and of course because I don't have a chip on my shoulder because I wasn't raised as a black person."

he reduced that offensive incident to "a chip on my shoulder." :argh: in one of the buchannan threads on friday, there was a person who thought his racist musings had enough merit to be discussed. how can i have a discussion with someone who i must first convince that i don't have a tail? that's exactly how i would feel if i tried to discuss that racist jerk's "opininons."

[bliss_eternal]

12. Inquiring minds want to know....

...how did you manage to NOT smack him upside the head? Or put your foot squarely in his ignorant ass?

[noiretextatique]

13. as a Capricorn, i have an especial gift

i have the ability to rip someone a new one with a few lashes of my tongue }( he hasn't spoken to me since.

[bliss_eternal]

14. omg...

:rofl::spray:

...that gave me a rather entertaining visual image.
He deserved all that your tongue lashing expertise could provide, and more....






























.....like a smack upside the head. :P

[noiretextatique]

15. i could have phrased that better

more like :spank: than the other visual :7

[Raineyb]

17. You're better than I am. If it were me I think someone would have ended up with a size 11 enema.

On second thought, it's too hard finding decent shoes to waste a perfectly good shoe leaving it in someone's behind.

Regards

[noiretextatique]

19. he was totally embarrassed...afterwards

but he was still stupid or arrogant or privileged enough to say it in the first place.

[Raineyb]

23. Probably why he's not spoken to you since.

Looks like he has just enough sense to be embarrassed about what he said but without the cajones to apologize.

Regards

[noiretextatique]

27. that is correct

i became the angry, unreasonable black woman, and he was the well-intentioned, but misunderstood white guy. some other acquaintances were there who were white, so they helped him lick his wounds. only the black people understood why i was offended by the CFO's comment and by my friend's comment. :puke: my friend didn't understand why i was so irritated, but i've read that script in this same play several times...i' over it.

[noiretextatique]

29. i am non-violent physically

but deadly verbally :evilgrin:

[Brewman_Jax]

21. That was incredibly rude of him

and shows that there are ignorant black people, also. You showed great restraint on that. :thumbsup:

[noiretextatique]

25. he's not black

he has some distant black relatives. for all intents and purposes, he's a white guy from indiana.

[SemperEadem]

43. what a sad little man your friend is

"Well, I would be a better judge of whether that comment was racist or not because of my history and of course because I don't have a chip on my shoulder because I wasn't raised as a black person."

Your boy is full of shit.

[noiretextatique]

45. his eyes are very brown

:rofl: he's classically clueless

[bliss_eternal]

11. This was linked a while ago...

...thought the participants of this thread may find this interesting:

How to tell people they sound racist
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=385&topic_id=159690

...cause you know, there's only ONE WAY to do this--to have this discussion.
Clearly we just need an instruction manual on how to have the conversation, and obviously this dude is THE expert on race relations. Don't you ALL feel so much better knowing you now have your own personal guide to tell you how to have this important discussion?

THE MOST important thing is to make sure we tip toe around the issues, coddle the bigot and make sure they don't feel badly about themselves. Nothing worse than insecure bigots, is there? I don't know about you, but I'm just so damned grateful to learn it is OUR responsibility to comfort the offensive....to make those people that say racist things feel better about their need to enlighten the world at large with their intolerant ideas.
:eyes::sarcasm:

[noiretextatique]

16. i saw the #1 reponse the racism threads

on DU. "Everybody is racist"

[Raineyb]

18. It never takes long to come up does it?

:grr:

Regards

[noiretextatique]

20. like clockwork

it's totally maddening, but also telling. racism to many people who never experience it = one or more stupid people with character flaws. institutional racism is completely dismissed as a reality. not to mention the slaughter of indians, slavery, jim crow, internment camps, imperialism, etc, etc, etc.

[Karenina]

22. Have you checked out the "brave enough" discussion in GD?

I've engaged the loquacious YWM's "Besserwisserei" and he finally has admitted that "poor whites" vote against their economic issues while cautioning that race not be brought into it by the left... That's cuz he doesn't "self-identify" as white. And you should too! Or something...

[Raineyb]

24. I canceled three replies to that one

I knew he'd show up and as usual he's completely clueless. I decided not to reply because I'm not in the greatest of moods and my reply would probably come off as nasty.

It seems as though he's under the impression that one should just give up one's identity and all will be well because... I have no clue; but then neither does he.

Regards

[Number23]

30. I just started a thread here about that OP.

Don't know how in the world I missed that one. Would have loved to see some responses from you.

I thought Vaberella's post was excellent.

[noiretextatique]

28. is that the "it's class, not race" mantra?

another DU favorite :hi:

[Karenina]

31. In ALL its glory!

:hi:

[bliss_eternal]

26. Ah yes....

...DU's mantra. Everyone is racist--therefore why is anyone making a big deal about (whatever the racist scenario is). Such a classic. lol.

[Raineyb]

32. I'd go with cliche but that's just me. LOL

On a thread about being brave about talking about race. (Spare me!) There's actually someone who is under the impression that state of race relations are equally the fault of both sides. Actually he didn't use the word sides, I did so I explained for the sake of argument let's choose black and white. Then he objected to that use and got angry with me about my definitions since I declared them as fact.

Why is it that when one discusses race around here you're accused of spouting opinion as opinions are like assholes everybody's got one. I suppose that this some people's way of dismissing what is said. "Well that's just your opinion" This way they don't have to seriously ponder what was said. However, if the people who suffer from racism define it one way, and the people who don't define it a different way, doesn't it make sense to use the definition of those who suffer from racism? Am I crazy or is there a serious lack of logic going on here?

I suppose he/she was looking for tentative statements prefaced with phrases like "in my humble opinion." I'm sure if he bothers to go back to the thread he won't like my answer. I see no reason to preface my remarks that way at all.

<sigh>

I probably should have kept my damn mouth shut

Regards

[Brewman_Jax]

33. You were nicer than me

I've done my share of DU race "discussions" in which the same obtuse white idiots appear with the same recycled clueless arguements. They'll say something about the obvious racists, like Pat Buchanan, but there will be as many defenders of him. I'm tired of seeing no change, or worse, that none of them has a concept of the whole racial caste system.

It's enough to make one stay in the Lounge. :beer:

[Brewman_Jax]

34. They just don't get it

and it seems that they can't. There's a world of difference betweeen having your feelings hurt and having your rights, choices, and opportunities limited because of your skin.

[Chovexani]

35. Credit to someone way funnier than me on Livejournal

[bliss_eternal]

36. no you didn't...

:spray:

I can't even read it all now...
I'm laughing so hard I'm afraid I'll wake my guy in the other room.
:rofl::rofl:

[Chovexani]

37. Yeah, I did

And you have NO IDEA how much self-restraint it takes to not post that in every race thread in GD/P. :evilgrin:

I'm thinking of making a knockoff Bobby Jindal version

[Brewman_Jax]

38. That's great!

:spray:

[kwassa]

41. my favorite is missing from the card.

"If you just don't talk about it, it will all go away!"

versions of this appear on DU all the time.

[Chovexani]

42. Another one

"You're the one that's racist for bringing up race!"

I got that one the other day on a Jindal thread.

:banghead:

[noiretextatique]

46. one of my all-times favs

talking about the thing is more problematic than the thing itself :wtf:

[bliss_eternal]

39. A novel approach...

..."just laugh off" the overt racist actions, so as not to "let them win."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5131243&mesg_id=5131425

:eyes:

[Raineyb]

40. We might have to expand the bingo card to include that asinine response.

I swear I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall.

:banghead:

Regards

[Brewman_Jax]

44. A testimony to the sanitized education system

If history, esp. US history, was told with the ugly, brutal parts left in, there'd be more common ground to have this "discussion". Not over-simplified, like all the Indians all died of smallpox and black people appeared after the Civil War. History without the "white" wash, showing the war and policies of genocide against the Indians into the 20th Century and the incredible oppression of Jim Crow segregation. Maybe if white people knew the complete truth of history, they'd understand the reasons for the HBCU's, the Miss Black America contest, the Negro Baseball Leagues, and the like, and not whine, "Why can't we call black people n******s like the rappers?" and wonder why black people won't take them seriously.