I think Blacks should leave the Dem party en masse. Check out the Green

[propagandafreegal]

party..... Dems are a joke right now.

[angee_is_mad]

1. Greens are not an option

but after today I wish there was a viable option for us. I am seriously thinking about re-registering as an independent.

I wish some of the CBC would become independents and make the dems work for their votes.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

2. Nope, Greens are not an option.

That guarantees that we will b e living under republicans for the next 50 years.

[ecstatic]

10. And how is that different than going with the Democrats?

I'm with the original poster on this one. Tired of being taken for granted.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

15. If you believe that the Democrats and Republicans are really inseparable..

then I really don't know what else to say. The Democratic Party may not live up to my expectations by a long shot, but there is no way in hell they are the same as Republicans. Ask any of the unemployed out on the streets now.

[Kahuna]

32. Ask anyone who actually live through the civil rights era.

:shrug:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

33. Bingo.

Republicans believe the playing field is level already. Republicans scream "reverse racism". Republicans believe that minorities are OPPRESSING whites.

Again, the democratic party lets me down a lot, but to allow the Republicans to roll over us all to "show those Democrats" is insane. It's cutting of the nose to spite the face.

[msgadget]

3. The only reason the Greens and other Independent parties have no chance

is because the dems and repubs have the rules set up to favor their two parties. Independents have to win their way on each ballot in each state and don't even get to debate the big boys if they manage to accomplish that. Why is it we accept a debate between two versions of the same corporate-controlled party? This, imo, is key to breaking the backs of the same ol' sh*t, different flavor game we call elections. If America en masse heard true alternatives our alleged representatives might actually have to dig deep and pay attention to *us* for a change.

As long as people are afraid the third parties aren't strong enough THEY WILL NOT BE and we'll continue to waste our votes on unworthy candidates.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

4. But how do third parties secure the vote of the people?

I'm not sure that I can wait the decades it is going to take to get a third party going. I agree that it would be great, but I can't just let the Republicans run free and completely unfettered for the next generation.

[msgadget]

5. I hear you and share your frustration

but I'm tired of voting for the least worst, aren't you? And, as long as we worry about how little power the third parties have, they'll remain insignificant. These are times for citizen action, personal responsibility for how we are treated. We should all be meeting with like-minded people, writing letters and visiting our local politicians. At the very least we cannot allow them to ignore us til right before they need our votes.

Further, is there anything the dems have done recently that lead you to believe they're going to do things any differently?

[angee_is_mad]

8. Become registered Independents

and vote on progressive issues and if there isn't anyone you like,do a write-in. We will lose elections, but it will not take the Democratic party a generation to realize that our votes will no longer be taken for granted. Basically we have nothing to lose and they have everything to lose, like a guaranteed bloc of voters.

They will have to work for our votes the same way they are working to get the Nascar dads, security moms and moderate repubs.

[Kahuna]

12. This is an option I could live with. But aligning myself with the party..

who is directly responsible for bush is not an option.

[propagandafreegal]

6. They are stealing elections with the complicity of the Dems. No diff. nm

[wildeyed]

13. I think we need to change the structure of the elections process.

Same day voter registration is a great tool for third parties. I believe that the only states that elected third party to statewide office have this. This tends to benefit Dems as well. I am working for this reform in my own state.

Also, instant run-off voting where you vote your top three choices. Everyone's first choices are tallied. If no one has a simple majority at the end of the first round, the lowest vote getter is kick out and those voter's second choices are added in. So you can vote Green first choice, Dem second and not waste your Green vote. This system also seems to encourage more civility between the parties since they have to negotiate with each other for second rung support.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

16. Yes, I think that is a good option..

the obvious question is where to begin.

[wildeyed]

20. I am starting with the same day voter registration.

I live in a 'red' state, but ironically, the Governor is a dem and both state houses are dem controlled. So I think if the grassroots works hard in my state, we can get this reform through! I am collecting petition signatures already. Also, I think this reform could have a big impact on the prez race in 2008. Voter turnout is significantly higher with this system, mostly helping the young and historically disenfranchised voters.

Here is a link for more info http://www.demos-usa.org/page18.cfm

IRV decreases the power of both the dem and pubs, and gives it to third parties, so that will be a harder sell. I think, get the same day registration, then use that as a tool to force the IRV issue.

[msgadget]

19. Great ideas, Wildeyed.

But, including them on the ballots as easily as the other two parties and allowing them in the debates is essential. Most of the US doesn't ever see more than a clip of a third party candidate's speeches nor do the 'two' main parties ever have to answer questions outside their comfort zone.

[wildeyed]

21. I agree.

Including more third party candidates in the debate does encourage the sharing of ideas and challenges the entrenched parties somewhat. But it doesn't solve the 'wasted vote' problem. Same day voter registration and IRV do, IRV particularly.

One of the things on my to do list is to contact the Greens in my state and find out if they will help collect petition sigs for same day registration. I am a dem, but I think EVERYONE would be better served by a system that introduces more civility and more points of view into the debate.

[msgadget]

28. I hold more hope for IRV than same day voter registration

because it is the verification of the registrations that will, as per usual, continue to be problematic in local precincts. Besides which, the nation as a whole won't hear about either of these alternatives because the third parties have very low visibility by design. It isn't a matter of including more third party candidates in the debate but of allowing them in at all.

The current system is set up and run by the two parties and excludes third party candidates altogether. How is this a democracy if ALL candidates aren't heard by the nation?

[angee_is_mad]

7. Black republicans

say the same thing to try to attract blacks to their party.

[msgadget]

9. Not at all. What they say is

"The Democrats take your votes for granted without doing anything to earn them." And, then they talk about responsibility, against abortion and welfare and promise they can sit in the front of the bus to worship big business and rich people with the other repubs.

[Kahuna]

11. I am not checkin out no 'effin Greens. I hold them directly responsible..

for the mess we're in now. Remember 2000? They gleefully put us in this position so that they could come along afterwards and say, "see."
:puke: on the Greens.

[FrenchieCat]

14. Where does the Green party stand on

Issues that interest Black people specifically?

What chances are there for Black folks to hurt their own interest by splintering to nationally support a party that has no chance.

I think locally, supporting Green may make sense....but nationally, I don't think that it would be a wise move. It would only insure the complete and utter setback for important African-American issues....as GOP candidates would be assured wins everywhere without even trying.

[undergroundrailroad]

17. No. Green is not an option IMO. (n/t)

[Pithy Cherub]

18. Nope, It isn't easy being Green.

Rather than gratuitously paint in coarse broad srokes, your treaty could be taken a tad more seriously if you were to reason with facts and hopeful statements. You are certainly welcome to the limits of your own opinion.

[Kahuna]

22. Sorry to disappoint you again, PFG...

I'm certain another one of your wild notions is just around the corner. :eyes:

[propagandafreegal]

23. Maybe that is what we need... a seemingly 'wild notion' to shake things up

you go and support your bought and paid for Democrats. See where it takes you.

[FrenchieCat]

24. As asked of you earlier in this thread.....

although you never did answer my questions ,and therefore I am copying and pasting the same post again (in hopes of an answer from you this time)....

What do Greens stand on the issues that interest Black people specifically?

What chances are there for Black folks to hurt their own interest by splintering to nationally support a party that has no chance.

[msgadget]

30. My eyes can't follow these threads and I keep

finding things days after they're posted.:eyes:

ANYWAY, since PFG hasn't answered, I found this on the Green site:

2. SOCIAL JUSTICE AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY
All persons should have the rights and opportunity to benefit equally from the resources afforded us by society and the environment. We must consciously confront in ourselves, our organizations, and society at large, barriers such as racism and class oppression, sexism and homophobia, ageism and disability, which act to deny fair treatment and equal justice under the law.

On the national level the republicans, the DLC and DNC have already splintered the democratic party. The issues I hear the democratic leaders yacking about on camera have little to do with us specifically except those advanced by members of the Progressive Caucus and Congressional Black Caucus. The party as a whole seems merely tolerant of these two factions most of the time.

A friend sent me this archived article today:
http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2004/09/jesse_jackson_l.html">Jesse Jackson Leads the Charge Against the Corporate Lobbyists Running Kerry's Failing Campaign (But The Press Blacks it Out) and I've included a clip below to illustrate how cavalier the party has become towards the black vote. Kerry is featured because he was the candidate but this seems the general direction the party has taken:

>Yesterday, on CNN's Inside Politics, Jesse Jackson delivered a blistering attack on the Kerry campaign for running away from the Democratic base and the issues it cares about. ...Jesse sneered at the inadequacy of the Kerry campaign's much-publicized "shakeup" and its whitebread, retread Clintonista imports, snarling that "it can't be just a vanilla shake." ...

Jesse's right-on slamming of the top-heavy-with-consultants Kerry operation was echoed by my old friend Hank Sheinkopf--a well-known veteran Democratic campaign consultant himself, Hank worked on the Clinton and Gore campaigns as well as on many races in the South--in a New York Observer diatribe that flayed the consultant-ocracy now running the party and JFK's downward-slaloming campaign. With wealthy Kerry message czar Bob Shrum obviously among those he had in mind, Hank raged that "what really motivates these never-out-of-work, never-in-pain and never-needy operatives is their next high-paying gig. Winning matters not; nor does losing. Chance the gardener would have loved it. Speak in platitudes but, unlike Chance, take the dough—and take it quickly, even if it means breaking the fingers, the hearts and the reputations of those who might show sufficient idealism to want to do otherwise." As a result, the Democrats, Sheinkopf lamented, "have become an almost permanent minority party" (a view I share, and then some).<


We have tremendous untapped power yet we remain loyal to a party that, nationally, is uncomfortable fighting for us (I'm talkin' elected officials here, not candidates). During this past election the black vote splintered just a little more toward the right and, certainly, those of us who seek alternatives for the next cycle will hurt them even more but, perhaps they need to take us more seriously, be more afraid of losing our support. The two most prominent black faces during the presidential elections aren't even elected OR respectable but they're hauled out each cycle, right before dems visit black churches. It's insulting.

I say all of this even though I hate long posts and am not a Green. I'm just sayin', they owe us more than we owe them.

[Kahuna]

25. Your support of the Greens is directly responsible for the

current mess we're in now. Unless maybe, you weren't old enough to vote in 2000?

AL Gore would have been a great president, but the Greens had their little "message" they had to get out at all costs. :eyes: I'll never forgive them for bush. Never!

[propagandafreegal]

26. Oh brother, I love the assumptions... *rolls eyes* nm

[Kahuna]

27. I didn't assume anything. did you see the question mark at

the end of the statement. That means it was a question. Not a declaration. Got it?

If you're referring to my statement about you supporting the greens in 2000, as far as I'm concerned if you support them now, it's the same as supporting them in 2000, because you apparently condone what they did. You may as well ask us to join the republicans. Same difference. If you vote Green, you'll end up with a republican anyway.

[msgadget]

29. Oh, Kahuna, I'm so sorry you feel that way

because the GOP machine in Florida and the Supreme Court lost Gore that election.

[Kahuna]

31. Well, the truth is, the Greens weren't at all bothered that bush could

actually win. In fact, they were cheering him on, so as to "shake up the Democrats." So, as far as I pretty much feel the same animosity for Greens as I do for republicans. Because they are both responsible for bush being able to claim a win in 2000. Like it or not, them's the facts.

[msgadget]

34. Yep, thems the facts alright

and I completely respect your position. It's Democrat or nothin', right?

The third parties don't see either of the the two major parties as allies in way, shape or form. Instead they have disdain for their governance for a variety of reasons and that's why two parties that loathe each other (in public) got together to exclude them from ballots and the debates. But, what if something they have to offer reasonates? How will you know if your loyalty is warranted if you only hear from these two teams? That's a rhetorical question because I KNOW already, Kahuna, that you cannot be swayed! :)

[Kahuna]

36. Low blow, Ms. If you read up further,, you will see what I posted about..

registering and an Independent. So, the first part of your post has totally, turned me off to reading the second part of your post. I've always viewed you as intellectually honest. You let me down this time.

[msgadget]

37. Low blow? No way would I disrespect you, Kahuna

Never. I thought you were a truly loyal Democrat and was trying to respect that. Obviously I missed where you said you registered Independent because I don't do snide posts to people I like and I like you.

[GOPFighter]

35. I feel some loyalty to the Democratic Party

John Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson put a lot on the line when they gave civil rights their full support. They knew the Democratic Party would lose a lot of votes for decades to come because of it. I'm old enough to remember how much political courage it took to take on the comfortable segregated system that had been allowed to develop in America.

But my loyalty is running thin. If the Democratic Party caves in and tries to become Republican-lite, then I will probably leave the party. I think it's just a matter of time before the two big parties fracture into smaller parties anyway.

[SemperEadem]

38. No way

Greens are no more interested in advancing the black agenda than the rethugs. They are only concerned with their own limited agenda. There is nothing the green party has to offer the AA voter. How many black candidates are the green party advancing in upcoming elections?

yeah, I thought so.

I'm not saying the Dems have done a sparkling job, either; but blacks stand to gain more from liberal dems than any other party out there.