A question for Vietnam combat vets

[unhappycamper]

A good friend of mine asked the the following question:

I wanted to ask your opinion about this some time ago, because I don't really know when it changed:

During WWII, you found four-star generals on Omaha beach, you found Bradley, Patton, etc. advancing with the troops getting under fire. If you were a P-51 pilot, you easily could have had an encounter with some Lt. Generals up there. High ranking officers were in actual battles.

I've never heard of these high ranks being at the front line since then, exposed to getting killed, leading their units.

Do you know when this has changed or when they just started to gather at nice office desks thinking about strategies and remote control the actual battles?

Do you remember what was the highest ranking officer you actually saw in a combat zone during Vietnam? Anything above Captain?

My reply to him:

The last field grade officer (LTC and up) I can recall leading his troops into battle was Hal Moore in 1965. Out of that battle for the Ia Drang Valley came the book and the movie "We were soldiers once, and young." If you haven't read it, I suggest you do. Even tho the movie starred Mel Gibson, I'd recommend that also.

During my first tour (67~68) I saw occasional LTCs out on operations riding their Command and Control Hueys. Majors would tend to be on the ground with their troops.

I was not a combat troop, so my views are anecdotal. Tell you what: I'm going to the VFP convention in Portland, ME next month. I'll make it a point to talk to combat vets and get their take on your question.

Any combat vets care to enlighten us?

[msongs]

1. "forward he cried, from the rear, and the front rank died, and the generals sat

as the lines on the map moved from side to side"

fighting wars to increase values of stocks owned by generals.

Msongs

[UTUSN]

2. I don't know that answer. But about ranks being revived: Commodore.

My ship (LST) traveled up and down the rivers in the Delta. They told us we belonged to a group of seven ships and that a "Commodore" was in charge of the group and that this rank was last previously used during the Civil War. Just a trivia tidbit.

The "captain" of LSTs was actually a LT.

[Glassunion]

3. Best I could find above captain...

It may be hard to find, as you only hear about higher ranking officers in combat when they receive an award. I do recall watching the History Channel one night and a Marine Col was talking about an ambush and firefight that he participated in. His location in the convoy when the ambush started left him in a position where he could not command, as he was cut off from the main body of his Marines. He could only direct the fire of his driver and 3 other Marines that were cut off from the remainder of the convoy while a CPT was able to flank the attacking position and end the fight.

Here is what I found as far as awards go...

In WWII

An LTC was awarded the Navy Cross
"holding a mile-long front in a heavy downpour of rain, a Japanese force, superior in number, launched a vigorous assault against that position of the line which passed through a dense jungle. Courageously withstanding the enemy’s desperate and determined attacks, he not only held his battalion to its position until reinforcements arrived three hours later, but also effectively commanded the augmented force until late in the afternoon of the next day"

In Korea

An LTC was awarded the Navy Cross
"exposed himself to rifle, machine-gun and mortar fire from strongly entrenched Japanese positions to move from company to company in his front lines, reorganizing and maintaining a critical position along a fire-swept ridge. His forceful leadership and gallant fighting spirit under the most hazardous conditions were contributing factors in the defeat of the enemy during this campaign and in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service"

A Col was awarded the Navy Cross
"Although the area was frequently covered by grazing machine-gun fire and intense artillery and mortar fire, he coolly moved along his troops to insure their correct tactical employment"

All of the awards above mentioned went to the same guy "Chesty" Puller. But that guy was superman.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

4. Since you mentioned Mel Gibson and "We Were Soldiers" ...

... yes, see the movie. It's not bad, and it seems to follow the book to a point. But, the movie ends with a battle-ending victorious glorious charge into the NVA encampment, helecopter guns blazing. I don't think that charge was in the book.

The book has two "halves" of the battle, and the movie only covered the first half. Based on the book, the movie seemed to cover the "easy" half of the battle. The march out of the valley was not covered, including the leadership meeting that pulled the officers away from the squads, leaving a leadership gap when the worst of the attacks came.

So, even if you see the movie, read the book. Far more detail, no doubt more accurate, and it honors each of the dead by first, middle, and last name.

This review is from a REMF.

:hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. The current CO who replaced McChrystal

came under fire during the early days of Iraqi Freedom IIRC.

That said, the reason for this move away from the field comes from Battle Space Awareness. You cannot really achieve it in the front lines, while in a command center you do and you can. Remember, Patton's field awareness came down to his Division. While large in area, a radio helped.

Today CENTCOM is controlling troops across several countries. There is no way you can find out what the hell is going on from the front lines. That said, they do go visit the front lines, or rather their deputies, often.

[Stinky The Clown]

6. I think the nature of the job changed

I'm not a combat vet.

Fighting is now as much a matter of information and Command and Control as it is charging up a hill, sword outstretched. I'm not sure at what specific grade level things change, but a field officer is today best used in a command and control center and not on his belly in the mud. In the mud, he's blind to the rest of the battlefield.

[westerebus]

7. 1969. The Rock Pile.

Marine one star. He was having some face time with the company and battalion CO's. Highest rank in the bush, Captain.

[pwb]

8. In the bush on company patrol we had Captains and Lieutenants.

In Cambodia in 1970 while we were hauling out the caches high ranking officers only came down after the area was very secure.
I feel strange saying this but it seems to me the officer casualties in our current wars are way lower than they might be. Technology seems to have them giving orders from a distance. Just MO.
The NCO's are always many on the casualty lists.

[unhappycamper]

9. Were you at a small air / fire support base in the Angel's Wing area?

I was NCOIC of a small maintenance team that repaired everything from mine detectors to radios to small weapons.

[pwb]

12. I was in the fishhook and parrots beak.

I can't recall the fire base, maybe David?

[unhappycamper]

13. I don't think I ever learned the name of that place.

It had a small PSP runway that could accommodate Caribous and 123s with two avgas fuel bladders at our end of the runway. There were two artillery battalions on one side of the runway with berms pushed up by a bulldozer. Next to the fuel bladders there was an asphalt pad for us to do our maintenance magic. On our left was the ammo dump and to the front we had a treeline about 75 meters out.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

10. I had a bird colonel in a hole with me

but that was during the evacuation, so shit was hitting the fan everywhere and no one knew shit.... before that, a Navy CDR was the highest I ever saw outside the wire, and he was a SEAL

although... there were Generals in helicopters, I know that for a fact


like someone said above, the job description has changed a lot with modern command, control and communications, it was not uncommon in the US Civil War to have 5 or more Generals killed in an afternoon, but they had to do their own recon in those days and were big targets on horseback.

[DustyJoe]

11. FrontLine

Believe it or not, General Frederic Ellis Davison choppered in to a 'Hot' NVA base camp we had just taken in 1968 at the VN-Cambodian border. Other that him I never saw anything bigger that the Battalion CO a full Bird come down from his chopper to give the CO personal instructions from his command chopper that usually circled overhead. Mainly I never saw anything higher that a Captain in the field. General Davidson was one of the the first Black one-star Generals in RVN. He commanded the 199th Light Infantry which I was a proud member of. Of course General Colin Powell got his star with the Americal Division which was the 196th, 197th and 198th Light Infantey Brigades. These 2 young generals were in control of some of the toughest Heliborne-Assault Combat Units in-county. Must have been something to the fact they both were put in command of the 'Light Infantry' LOL. But both of these men were revered by their troops.

[pinboy3niner]

14. The only one I saw was our Bn. CO (an LTC)

He may have been accompanied by one staff officer (our Bn. S-3, Operations). If we weren't in good terrain, and the CO really wanted to come in, we'd have to blow an LZ for him to land.

It's great for morale for the troops to see the brass in the field, unless the individual is despised. (In that case, you could always snap him a salute in the boonies and see what happens, if you know what I mean. :) )

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. You ARE EVIL

:hi:

[pinboy3niner]

16. LOL! (Yeah, but I couldn't help myself.) :)

My bad! :evilgrin:

:hi: