I don't guess I can still call myself an atheist.

[varkam]

I'm not really sure how to start this post, or exactly what to say other than the fact that I'm no longer an atheist. I do believe in God...though I'm not quite sure how to articulate it. I don't think I can ever be a Christian, because I don't think I can get past a lot of the theology that goes along with that, but I don't think that it is an accurate characterization of my beliefs...at least not anymore...that I think that there's nothing else "out there".

I really don't know how to explain it...I mean, I know what my conception of God isn't. It's not about telling people that they're wrong or that they're going to burn. It's not about thinking that I'm going to get dropped into a Bentley if I'm pious enough. It's not about feeling like I'm superior or morally advanced. More than anything, it's about believing what I take to be reality and for me, and for a while, part of that has rested on faith. It has been so long since I have had faith in much of anything, though, and so like a muscle, it has atrophied.

I'm sure it's probably kind of strange that I'm posting all of this here...of all places. It's not my intent to say "fuck you" to anyone, or to tell anyone that they're wrong or anything of the sort. Mainly, it's because I feel like I need to let go of this part of my identity and if I keep all of this to myself then it's going to be a lot harder to do that. Believe it or not, it's very hard to do. My atheism has been a large part of my beliefs for a very long time, and many of my friends and family are atheists (including you fine folks here) and part of me fears very much that I'm going to lose some of them. I know, however, that it needs to be done.

Also, as I alluded to, I have friends that read and post here. I really don't know what the reception is going to be...but in some strange sense I feel like I owed something to you...to tell you. I don't know, it's hard to explain.

So I appreciate you reading this. I really don't know where things go from here...but then again, when did I ever?

:toast:

[beam me up scottie]

1. Why would that matter?

Do you remember when I told another person on this board that qualifiers are so 20th century?

You are not my atheist friend, you're not my theist friend, you are *just* my friend.

And you are one of the kindest, patient and most forgiving men people I know, G.

I am a better person because I met you, and you damned well better stick around if you know what's good for you.

[varkam]

8. Well, you already know how I feel about you, BMUS.

Suffice it to say, thank you, and you fucking rock.

[salvorhardin]

2. What BMUS said

You should know that the majority of people who post here could care less about your specific beliefs. We like and care about you as a person so if you've come to a point in your life where you believe in something outside of the natural world and it works for you then you've got to know we're going to be happy for you. I honestly doubt you could ever become the type of person who would attempt to force their beliefs on others, or think less of people who don't believe, and I know you're a strong supporter of science and reasoned inquiry. So honestly I can't see a single difference between you as an atheist and you as believer. And really, it sounds like your beliefs basically align with those of Spinoza and a million other intelligent people who feel very strongly that there is something more to this world. Even Dawkins wouldn't put you down for that.

[varkam]

9. It's odd, salvor...

I kind of worried that I would force my beliefs on others just by virtue of...well...having faith. I really don't want to be that type of person because I know how much it gets under my skin. I really don't think, though, that the things I believe are the types of things that lend themselves to allowing me to say "You're wrong!!!!1!" I think part of that is a sense that I have that I may never fully comprehend or be able to articulate what I take...well...my faith to be. It's kind of hard to be dogmatic when I really have no fucking clue what's going on.

Thanks, friend. :toast: I still owe you a beer.

[beam me up scottie]

12. What salvor said...

I grew up in Vermont and religion was never discussed because it made people uncomfortable.

My friends went to church, I didn't, no biggie.

[rrneck]

3. It sounds

like you are doing what human beings have been doing for thousands of years. You made your own. Keep us posted, I'm sure your connection with the divine will be a benefit for anyone and everyone.

[cynatnite]

4. How was atheism a part of your beliefs?

And what were those beliefs?

I'm trying to understand what you're saying but it's confusing.

[varkam]

7. Well it isn't so much that it was a part of my beliefs, but rather was a part of my identity.

In much the same way that anyone's belief system becomes a part of their identity. Atheism is...or well was I guess...my thing. And so it's kind of hard to let go of that. I guess that I used to believe that there wasn't anything beyond just this material place...and maybe I still carry many of my old beliefs (ie I still don't believe in angels or demons, etc), but a lot of other things have changed.

I mean, atheism wasn't just a part of my beliefs - it was the whole thing. Or perhaps it was necessarily entailed by a strict materialist mind-set...I'm really not sure.

[Deep13]

5. You just want to be dropped into a Bentley, don't you?

Oops, sorry, I just read the part where you said that it isn't what you want.

Well, some people have a sense of purpose, of connection to the world and even a sense of spirituality without thinking that there is a theistic god. I guess i tend to define "god" narrowly to fit what people typically think it means: an immortal being who probably created the universe, has a more or less human personality, answers prayers, punishes "sins", is seperate from the physical universe, but may intervene in it at will. For a long time I considered myself a "weak" atheist because I rejected what I described but still FELT that there was still an overall purpose to everything. It has only been recently that I have rejected even that.

I don't know what exactly your thought process is, of course. So maybe you are not an atheist strickly speaking, but it sounds like you are not really a theistic believer, either. Anyway, it's not like anyone is going to send you to hell or anything. You may end up changing your mind a dozen more times (or not). That's okay. Thinking honestly is what really counts.

[varkam]

10. re: thinking honestly

What I have found is that thinking honestly is fucking painful because you're forced into some conclusions that you don't otherwise like...which is sort of how I found myself here.

And no, I don't think that "my" God...or at least my conception of him/her/it is as you describe a theistic conception. I'm not particularly swayed by theistic apologetics regarding creation or anything like that. I'm still pretty happy to conceive of the universe having no beginning and no end. When I pray, I don't ask for things (well, except for a Bentley) to be given to me aside from some clarity, because I don't think that's how it works for me.

So no...I'm not a traditional believer by any stretch of the phrase. I'm also not a materialist anymore, either. I do think that there is something out of reach of science and rationality...conveniently, of course, my hypothesis is completely untestable...but I guess that's why they call it faith.

:pals: Thanks for your words

[Deep13]

22. "thinking honestly is fucking painful ..."

Ain't THAT the truth!

[Warpy]

6. It's a journey, not a destination.

Whether or not there's somebody on the other end of a prayer line is beside the point.

[varkam]

11. Word.

That's something that I'm starting to understand, specifically in how it applies to my life. I don't think I will ever have all, or even some of the answers. But I don't think that's really the point, either - just as you said.

[immoderate]

13. Well I don't judge a person by what they believe.

I've always said that everybody believes something. And it goes as deeply into the person as say, what their favorite flavor of ice cream is. So for me, it's what you do.

Now who do you wanna hang out with? :)

--imm

[PassingFair]

14. We must shun you now.

I have seen you post back and forth on this before,
and I am really surprised that you think you are
afraid you are "going to lose" friends.

It seemed like an on-going struggle for you, and
I am happy you are off the fence.

:hug:

[onager]

15. You'll have to give back the rubber chicken!

Otherwise I hope you keep posting here. I always enjoy reading your stuff.

I'm going to be very annoyed if I see you on The 700 Club, though.

[moggie]

16. Well, fuck

Now we'll have to change the locks on all the black helicopters, and that's not cheap.

[TechBear_Seattle]

17. If you need a label, why not "apatheist"?

Theist: "I believe in God."
Strong atheist: "I believe there is no God."
Weak atheist: "I do not believe in God."
Agnostic: "I do not believe we can know if God exists."
Apatheist: "I believe I'll have another cookie."

Basically, an apatheist is someone who holds that the question of belief or unbelief is not very important.



Edited to add link.

[varkam]

21. Because I do think that it is an important question, for me anyway.

I do care very much, so I don't think that it's a good description for me.

[FiveGoodMen]

23. Just a thought...

If there is any kind of god, then he/she/it didn't go to much trouble to explain themselves to us. (Contrary to what fundies think)

The big believe-or-burn organizations all claim that understanding the nature/wishes of their god is the critical factor; get it wrong and you suffer. But the bible doesn't make any sense and its adherents can't agree on what it really says anyway. Their god knows all, sees all, loves all, created everything that exists including the underlying laws of physics, dictated his word to us, but just couldn't make himself clear. (!)

I assume the Koran isn't much better.

Once you dismiss their ideas, what you're left with is either no god or one that's perfectly happy to let us wander through life without knowing the ultimate answers.

So, even though the question is interesting and seemingly important, it doesn't look like 'god' really cares if we know or not.

[trotsky]

18. Please leave your rubber chicken at the nearest EAC regional office.

We'll have to remove all knowledge of the secret handshake and black helicopter schedule, of course. Two special agents should be by your place in the next few hours.

Good luck with your ongoing spiritual journey, varkam. As long as you are the same person there will be no hard feelings between us, I guarantee it. :)

[Deep13]

24. Holy shit! You admitted that there is a secret handshake on the internet?!

Great! Now how will I know who gets the nonbeliever retail discount?

[varkam]

27. You can pry my rubber chicken from my cold, dead, fingers.

Good luck...after all, I've got God on my side now. :rofl:

[pauliedangerously]

19. Identity is a weird thing

"Which category do I fall under?"

When I say I'm an atheist, I'm simply rejecting all of the claims I've heard about the existence of specific deities.

There's nothing that says an atheist can't sit around and speculate about the unknown. I've had deep discussions with hardcore evangelicals and a lot of them tell me that I'm not really an atheist, but a "seeker." Okay, I'm cool with that.

So you've taken on a new perspective and you're redefining who you are. Right on.

[Goblinmonger]

20. Dude, big whoop.

Like I care. You're a solid guy; that's all that matters.

Now if you start turning into Inland or something, I may have to PM you and tell you to stop being a douche (It's OK to mention him since he isn't posting anymore, right?) but I don't foresee that happening.

Enjoy your journey and do it thoughtfully; that's all I ask/wish for anyone.

[trotsky]

25. Holy crap, now that's a name I didn't expect to hear again.

Ah, memories. Hell though I'd trade Inland for all the anti-vaxers in a heartbeat.

[varkam]

28. Yeah, I don't think that's the destination for me.

I doubt I'm going to turn into something like that. I'm still pretty deeply skeptical of people who claim to know all the answers, or that claim to get all the answers from a single book. Personally, I think a lot of these questions are naturally those that are difficult to answer and come along with a good bit of uncertainty.

[charlie]

26. Not a problem

Just a matter of bookkeeping. I'll move you to the Theists I Like column and... we're done!

This calls for celebration. How about you buy us all a nice lunch? :D

[varkam]

29. Lol!

But I'm poor, you see. I was hoping that this God thing was going to get me dropped into a Bentley (despite what representations I may have made) but so far it's just not working out. I must need to pray harder.

[Deep13]

30. Ah-ha!

It IS about the Bentley!

:evilgrin:

[YankeyMCC]

31. Perhaps Freethinker is a better way

to identify yourself if you need to use a term when talking to others. As others have said it is a journey not a destination. Just now you feel you believe in something you'll call god, tomorrow you may felt otherwise or not.

The thing is You get to decide and you get to Change your mind whenever and however often you like.

I'll always welcome someone who feels free and brave enough to think freely and for themselves regardless of what they think of the idea of gods.

[NMMNG]

32. So long as you're not a jerk who cares what you call yourself?

:hi:

[lizerdbits]

33. Eeeww gross I can't talk to you anymore

JOKING!

It sounds like you're describing yourself as similar to a Deist, though I think they may support 'intelligent design.' I don't think it changes who you are here. Unless you start telling us we're going to burn. :)

[TZ]

34. I guess the vaccines have finally gotten to you!

Aww just kidding. I don't have a problem with that. You are one of my favorites here and nothing you posted above is going to change that. As long as you don't go around calling us all fundie athiests I think its gonna be alright!:)

[Odin2005]

35. I could be called their an Atheist, Pantheist, or both depending on the exact definition one uses

Screw labels, IMO.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

36. Hey, that's cool!

As long as you're still a shill for big pharma, it's all good! :)

In all seriousness, I've seen your posts in other fora here at DU and you're a solid person that isn't likely to lose friends simply because you've changed your viewpoint.

[Evoman]

37. As long as you keep THINKING, then all is good.

Whether you are a believer or not doesn't really matter to me. I mean, I have real fundies as friends, so it's not a big deal to me.

However, be really thoughtful about this stuff and remember that just because you feel that god might exist, doesn't mean he does. Our internal feelings don't tell us anything about the universe out there. I'm sure you understand that. Belief really doesn't count for anything.

Like I said, belief or not, your still a good guy and it doesn't change anything for me. Just don't ever ask me to accept jesus as my lord and saviour, or I will dragon kick you in the kidneys.

[progressoid]

38. Well...

I join the others wishing you the best. Even though according to the stereotype, we're supposed to be ripping you to shreds. :)

Hope you find what you need. Or at the very least, enjoy the journey.

[Strong Atheist]

39. .

:hug:

[Beetwasher]

40. I'm Curious, What Made You Change? Was It Some Specific Event?

Did you have an epiphany or something? Or was it something that just happened over time? Just curious how and what lead to you changing your philosophy.