I had to go there.

[darkstar3]

I know, I know, being an atheist, or any religious minority, is not the same as being black, because one is a choice and the other is in-born. But goddammit these people need to understand that bigotry and persecution are inexcusable regardless of the minority they are directed at.

So clench and groan if you must, but I just didn't see any other way to get the point across than throwing down the "back of the bus" reference.

If anyone has any suggestions, that'd be great.

[laconicsax]

1. People who don't want to see it will never see it.

See: "Post racial" America.

[awoke_in_2003]

2. It all comes down to minorities...

African Americans are minorities in this country. Homosexuals are minorities in this country, Atheists are minorities in this country. We are all hated.

[laconicsax]

3. There's one majority that's hated--women.

[awoke_in_2003]

4. good point. nt

[cleanhippie]

5. I support you, but I think it is obvious that ignorance and hypocrisy is what they want.

But you are right. Go there. I'm there with you.

[Ninjaneer]

6. + 1 n/t

[Iggo]

7. I dunno about you, but...

...I sure as hell can't choose to believe in a god or gods.

[Deep13]

8. The only real question is if we are going to pretend we do.

And not believing are we going to pretend that we find the religious point of view to be reasonable.

[Iggo]

9. Ah, yes.

It is my choice on whether or not I (re)join their gang.

[awoke_in_2003]

10. I have another take on this....

atheism isn't a choice, religion is. I had a friend (who is kind of a believer) say "you know, we are born not believing in god- it has to be "taught" to us"

[FiveGoodMen]

13. I think we're born not having any firm opinion on the matter

But that's not atheism except in the most literal sense.

The kind of atheism that says, "I've given the matter some thought and don't find any of the religious narratives convincing. I think it's all probably made up," really IS a choice as far as I can tell.

(Of course, the "Does free will even exist?" battle rages on...if the answer to that is 'no' then there's no such thing as a choice.

But I don't find that argument convincing...)

[awoke_in_2003]

14. you have a point...

in my case, I grew up in a christian household. I never bought into those stories of walking on water, feeding 5000 people with a couple fish and a loaf of bread, and all those animals on Noah's Ark. Oh, I could the words, but deep down I never believed them.

[cleanhippie]

15. Correct, we are not born with an opinion on the matter, we are born with a lack of belief.

And a lack of belief IS atheism. Nothing more, nothing less.

[FiveGoodMen]

16. Well, that's a topic that generates debate.

PZ Myers over at http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/ has taken a stand against that definition.

I don't really care what we call things, but it IS important that we're all using the same dictionary.

[cleanhippie]

17. Sure, I guess we can debate what the meaning "is", but we ARE born with a "lack of belief"

And being born with a lack of belief is not debatable, right?

[FiveGoodMen]

18. I'm not sure that a considered lack of belief is the same as, "Huh? There's a WHAT in the sky?!"

[Ninjaneer]

19. Self delete

The PZ Meyer's article brings up some good points.

[Ninjaneer]

20. self delete n/t

[laconicsax]

11. No doubt you've noticed that the point was still missed. n/t

[onager]

12. Missed, then stuffed with straw and burned.

During the latest school-prayer argument, I got really tired of seeing the claims that Xian free-speech rights were being violated.

That's still boggling my mind. Many posters on that topic, me included, pointed out the obvious - this was a civil rights issue, not a free-speech issue. It became a civil rights issue when the school ignored well-established case law and decided to cram a prayer into a PUBLIC school ceremony.

I'd bet that if it was a school-prayer incident involving Sikhs, Muslims, Jews, Mormons, Seventh-Day Adventists or any similar minority, the same people huffing and puffing about free speech would be blasting the school officials as a bunch of ignorant Fundies. And correctly pointing out that the whole reason we have a Bill Of Rights is to keep the majority from trampling the rights of any minority.

Oh, I forgot. Civil rights issues are NEVER applicable to one certain minority. Apparently George H.W. Bush was right and we aren't citizens after all.