The Atheism Movement's Misogyny Problem

[MountainLaurel]

Rebecca Watson of the skeptics blog Skepchick recently posted a video in which she speaks, in part, about being on a panel in an atheist conference in Dublin during which she spoke about misogyny in the atheist movement. The video, with transcript for the relevant section, is at the bottom of the post. (If the video does not automatically start playing at 2:20, skip ahead.) She then describes how the discussion continued at the hotel bar late into the night, and how a man who purported to be interested in what she was saying followed her into the hotel elevator and propositioned her. Missing the point award.

PZ Myers wrote a post in which the video was mentioned, largely making another point about naming people with whom one disagrees, but acquiescing that perhaps hitting on women and backing off when they signal disinterest possibly is not enough: "Maybe we should also recognize that applying unwanted pressure, no matter how politely phrased, is inappropriate behavior. Maybe we should recognize that when we interact with equals there are different, expected patterns of behavior that many men casually disregard when meeting with women, and it is those subtle signs that let them know what you think of them that really righteously pisses feminist women off."

I almost can't conceive of a more innocuous, virtually noncommittal ("maybe") expression of support for the idea that it's pretty gross to creepily pursue a woman who has said she is going to bed in order to invite her back to your hotel room to further discuss an idea she had introduced in a professional capacity, no less when the idea is not sexualizing women.

And yet, totally predictably, the thread erupted in a hideous gushing explosion of misogyny, anti-feminism, and rape apologia, not only proving Rebecca Watson's point, but illustrating precisely why it is that, despite being an atheist and online activist, I don't touch movement atheism with a 10-foot pole. Were it a place merely hostile to feminist women and outspoken survivors of sexual assault, well, so is the rest of the world. Of course, the rest of the world doesn't passionately advocate against ignorance, only to feign it when asked to examine its privilege.

http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/629857/the_athiesm_movement%27s_misogyny_problem/

[ZombieHorde]

1. If I ask a guy for sex, am I sexist against men?

Should we all just wait around and hope sex happens by accident? What is bad about asking an adult for sex?

[MountainLaurel]

2. That's not the issue

It's the asking for sex when you're all alone with a woman in an elevator at 4 am and not realizing that it's a creeper move, ESPECIALLY when the conference presentation you supposedly want to discuss with her is about how atheist women are treated.

[ZombieHorde]

3. Do you usually ask in public during lunch hour?

Why does the time of day matter?

:graybox:"ESPECIALLY when the conference presentation you supposedly want to discuss with her is about how atheist women are treated."

Asking for sex is not poor treatment.

Explain the logic.

[MountainLaurel]

5. I think Rebecca's reply says it best

http://skepchick.org/2011/07/the-privilege-delusion/

snip

And then I would make a comment about how there could really be more women in the community, and the responses from my fellow skeptics and atheists ranged from “No, they’re not logical like us,” to “Yes, so we can fuck them!” That seemed weird.

So I started speaking more about women. About how they’re not idiots. About how they can think logically but maybe there are other social pressures keeping them away from our message, like how we tell women they should be quiet and polite and not question what is told to them. I spoke about how people need role models, and there were so few women on stage at these events.

And I got messages from women who told me about how they had trouble attending pub gatherings and other events because they felt uncomfortable in a room full of men. They told me about how they were hit on constantly and it drove them away. I didn’t fully get it at the time, because I didn’t mind getting hit on. But I acknowledged their right to feel that way and I started suggesting to the men that maybe they relax a little and not try to get in the pants of every woman who walks through the door. Maybe they could wait for her to make the first move, just in case.

And then, for the past few years as the audience for Skepchick and SGU grew, I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.

And I said no. I learned more about modern feminism and about how their goals so clearly overlapped those of the humanists and skeptics and secularists, and I wrote and spoke more about the issues within that overlap because so few other skeptics were doing it.

So here we are today. I am a feminist, because skeptics and atheists made me one. Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought, and so I grow angrier. I knew that eventually I would reach a sort of feminist singularity where I would explode and in my place would rise some kind of Captain Planet-type superhero but for feminists. I believe that day has nearly arrived.

[ZombieHorde]

7. I completely understand touching and rape threats are unacceptable and disturbing.

I also understand being hit on by many people at once can be overwhelming.

What I don't understand is why asking a person for sex in private is wrong. I have had strangers and people I barely knew ask me for sex, and I never found it insulting. I usually turned them down, but I always took it as a compliment.

[dropkickpa]

8. look up elevator rape on google

The fact that you'll get a disturbing mix of accounts of the actual occurrence and rape porn says something.

Also, following a woman you'd never had ANY sort of interaction with into an elevator at 4am for the express purpose of propositioning her is just. fucking. creepy. RW's response was situation appropriate. Her point was simply to try to hit some guys with a clue-by-four in pointing out that's it's fucking creepy behavior. And it is. It creates a situation where the woman feels threatened, no matter how much of a "compliment" the guy feels it may be. What is it about a total stranger following her into an elevator in the middle of the night to corner her and proposition sex that you find flattering? And why can you not see that it is creepy? He'd never even said hello to her before the incident.

If the guy hadn't just been a clueless cad but a sexual predator, it could have ended very differently (and unfortunately).

What's fucked up is that there are so many people who just can't or won't see how this is a threatening situation for a woman to be forced into.

[ZombieHorde]

9. She did have interaction with the guy. They were drinking together for hours before he asked.

Your scenario is creepy; the scenario in the OP is different.

[dropkickpa]

11. They never exchanged one word

They, being attendees of the same conference, happened to be in the same bar as dozens of other people. And it's still a creepy fucking thing to do.

[ZombieHorde]

12. Oh. I thought they were chatting for hours and then he asked.

:graybox:"She then describes how the discussion continued at the hotel bar late into the night, and how a man who purported to be interested in what she was saying followed her into the hotel elevator and propositioned her."

I read that wrong.

A complete stranger following someone into an elevator and asking for sex is creepy. I was picturing them chatting all night, and then chatting on the way to the elevator, and then he asks her.

I concede the argument.

[TZ]

16. Wow you don't get it

Being alone with a creepy guy in an elevator at 4am (who is possibly drunk) is fucking SCARY for many women. But hey, clearly no woman was ever assaulted in that situation, so she's just being silly. I'm so tired of this "whats the big deal" crap! Its not a dark alley but its just as scary in this situation!

[ZombieHorde]

20. I misunderstood the situation. nt

[Taverner]

22. DING DING DING!

Empathy, folks!

Put yourself in the woman's shoes for just a minute!

I'm a total ASSHOLE and even I know that's bad form!

[sudopod]

4. It's sad that so many of my fellows are doomed to be forever-alone permavirgins

on account of this sort of behavior. What ever happened to, you know, getting to know people? Seeing a bit of the world with them? Learning about about their personality and dreams and aspirations? Exploring one another's lives and discovering surprising differences as well as commonalities BEFORE unsubtly propositioning a woman for a quick roll in the hay? The older I get, the firmer my belief that this sort of knuckle-dragging is an inherent design flaw (heh) that we must actively work to overcome. I plan to take it up with the robot overlords as soon as the Singularity is manifest.

However, I'll grant the swarming hordes that will no doubt fall upon this thread in e-triumph that a little circumspection counts as a minor positive benefit of threats of doom and damnation as punishment for unlicensed carnal knowledge.

[Warpy]

25. Context, sweetie, context

You do not pursue a lone woman into a hotel elevator at 4 AM to pressure her for sex. That is beyond creepy. It tells her either you've mistaken her for a pro on the prowl or that your "needs" trump her safety.

He's damned lucky she didn't Mace him.

[onager]

29. He couldn't have mistaken her for a pro.

He heard her lecture on the subject of women being harassed at atheist conventions.

Apparently he sat in the bar while that discussion continued, but did not participate. (Which sounds sort of creepy in itself.)

Besides that...a male would have to be awfully naive to miss a pro working in a major hotel. But I have misspent a large part of my life living in hotels all over the world, so I probably don't have a Geek Outlook on this.

Tip, since this is the tourist season in L.A. - that woman who appears to be a well-dressed, well-groomed pro in Hollywood is most likely not a hard-working hooker, but a hard-working policewoman. So the potential customer will certainly get screwed, just not in the way he hoped. Every summer we get a rash of news stories about yokels from Flyover Country snared in prostitution stings out here. Highly entertaining reading. Especially when the perps belong to the clergy.

As they say on one of my favorite TV shows: "Pain, humiliation and stupidity are funny...as long as they happen to other people."

[sudopod]

6. The more I read about this, the more enraged I become.

http://skepchick.org/2011/07/the-privilege-delusion/

It really makes a man despair for the species.

[onager]

10. Same here. Dawkins' response really disappointed me.

And pissed me off. He's going over in the Christoper Hitchens Corner - useful but just totally clueless in some areas.

I get Watson's feelings on this completely, and I'm a male geezer raised in the Deep South with some serious privilege issues. I'm really cracking up at all the people trying to claim Elevator Guy was just making "an innocent invitation."

At the very best, his approach was creepy and stalkerish. (Oh, and that's because atheist males are "geeks with poor social skills." Give me a break.) He's lucky he didn't get a good kick in the crotch.

[Warpy]

26. The problem with male entitlement

is that males aren't aware that it's there and that the other half of the human race completely lacks it.

That's where Dawkins is. He might be reachable but he probably isn't. I agree he's been demoted to Hitch's level.

[WhollyHeretic]

33. I was disappointed in Dawkin's response in a couple ways.

Not only was he a dismissive jackass but the argument he put forward was devoid of any type of logic. It basically boiled down to "there are worse things in the world so you have no right to complain." He also did a little cherry picking about what happened.

[onager]

13. Now this is useful...

For guys having trouble seeing the other POV:

Schrödinger’s Rapist: or a guy’s guide to approaching strange women without being maced by Phaedra Starling

http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger’s-rapist-or-a-guy’s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/

[darkstar3]

14. It was a beautiful piece when it was written, and it only reverberates more with age.

[Warpy]

41. I'd forgotten that

I've since dropped it like a bomb on a really small atheist board within a site populated mostly by women and it's spread like wildfire.

Thanks for the reminder. She nailed it.

[Odin2005]

15. I'm not surprised, sadly.

[MountainLaurel]

17. An update

And now I'm even more pissed off. Did the guy think she was kidding when she spent the whole fucking night saying "don't hit on me"? I want to know who this dumbass is so I can squish him.

http://membracid.wordpress.com/2011/07/05/a-letter-to-richard-dawkins-from-victims-of-sexual-assault/

here are two important things to note about Rebecca Watson’s experience. The first is that she had spent much of her evening telling the people around her, “Please don’t hit on me,” and finished by saying she was done talking and wanted sleep. This was ignored by the man now widely referred to as Elevator Guy. (Yes, it’s been established that he was in a position to hear her. Yes, it’s been established that he followed her out of the space in which she’d been saying this and got on the elevator with her.)

She had said, by unequivocal implication, “No.” He ignored this and did what he wanted to. This is important.

The second important thing to know is that her response was to say publicly, one more time, “Please don’t do that. It makes me uncomfortable.” That’s it. That was her entire response to Elevator Guy beyond telling him she wouldn’t go to his room.

For that response, Rebecca came under considerable fire. This is also important.

The entire drama-filled discussion came about because Rebecca asserted her right and the right of other women to say, “No,” and be heard. It happened because she asserted that men, as well as women, have a role to play in maintaining that right.

[laconicsax]

18. The problem isn't limited to "the atheist movement," nor is it a result.

As reprehensible as it is, the sort of thing described in your OP is a common occurrence everywhere. Patriarchy transcends.

[MountainLaurel]

19. You're absolutely right

But it's very disheartening nonetheless.

[laconicsax]

21. Only if you let yourself think that, against all odds, group X will be different. n/t

[Iggo]

23. A guy hits on a woman in an elevator, and now atheists hate women?

Hmm...

[Evoman]

24. Can't believe how fucking stupid men are.

As a guy who has had plenty of luck with the ladies, I owe it all to being able to pick up on signals. Subtle signals of posture. These fucking idiots can't even pick up on the not so subtle signal of women saying "leave me alone". Or they don't care...which is even worse.

Of course this is a problem in the atheist community. It's a problem in EVERY community. Women are not our play toys, and they don't owe us shit. If they don't give you clear signals, leave them the fuck alone.

[DavidDvorkin]

27. The inability to catch subtle signals doesn't equal stupidity

It's more like having a hearing or sight problem.

[Warpy]

28. What makes you think the signals are particularly subtle, Slick?

No means NO.

[DavidDvorkin]

30. Read the post I was responding to, Warpy.

[Evoman]

31. Christ, it's not fucking rocket science.

Do you have eyes?

Do you have ears?

Good. Now, when you say something to a lady stranger, look at her with your eyes and listen with your ears.

If she doesn't look at you. Go away.
If she doesn't say more than one or two words to you. Go away.
If she tells you to go away, GO AWAY.

Yes, picking up on signals may be a skill not everyon has. You may not be that great at telling when a women is interested in you. Too fucking bad, die a virgin.

But telling when a woman is trying to get rid of you....man, you gotta be pretty damn obtuse not to see that. Especially when she tells you to stop, like the lady in the OP. Also, trying to pick up a woman in a dark and lonely alley, or after she just gave a talk on misogyny and asked you not to hit on her,is almost flabbergasting in it's stupidity.

[DavidDvorkin]

32. Let's stick to subtle signals, not obvious ones

That's what I was referring to.

Some people simply are unable to pick up subtle social signals. This applies to social interactions generally, not just to interactions between men and women. This inability is not limited to men. It may not seem like rocket science to you, but to such people, it is.

Saying that they should simply pay attention is like telling someone who's tone deaf that he should simply pay more attention to a tune and then he'd be able to sing it properly. Or it's like telling someone who's color blind that he needs to concentrate more on the colors and then he'd be able to differentiate them.

[Evoman]

37. Maybe.

I understand that some people, like those on the autistic spectrum, may not be able to pick up on subtle social cues. And that's okay. I'm not expecting people to be as good at it as I think I am.

Still, I was talking about situations, like the OP, where all the signs are blaringly obvious. Maybe it is a restriction in the way my brain works, but I just can't fathom how someone doesn't pick up on it.

[Deep13]

34. For many men, a woman's perspective is a completely puzzling point of view.

For the most part, men don't see what we do as threatening or predatory in any way. It would never occur to many men than waiting until a stranger is in the confined space of an elevator when she has no way of knowing his intentions might be seen as threatening. (That's reading the best possible intention into this situation. For all I know, he planned it that way.) For the most part, if we are being fucking stupid, it is because we were brought up that way and most human beings are simply not sufficiently introspective to stop and question their basic assumptions about anything. Even if one is told that he or she is wrong about something, most people will resist changing his or her mind, especially if it is about some basic assumption.

The other thing is in this society, the onus is entirely on men to initiate contact which creates tremendous psychological pressure to do so. That makes men competitive and somewhat skews ones perspective. It also feeds into the alpha personality that this society values in males. Real men exercise initiative and go get what they want through force of personality. I am not suggesting that this is an excuse for aggressive behavior, but it does make it somewhat predictable. If that were changed and and people stopped thinking about dating and sex as something men somehow take from women by manipulating their emotions to something men and women give to each other; then it might reduce the competitive nature of dating.

[amyrose2712]

35. Something else it could be too,

who wants to get rejected in front of a large crowd of people. Not saying it can't be creepy, but just a thought.

[sudopod]

36. Man here.

It isn't like he said "Let's get pizza sometime!" or "We're going bowling, want to come along?" He cornered a woman in an elevator at 4 am who had just given a speech about people being creepers and asked her up to his room. He's a creeper.

There's really not a lot of wiggle room. It isn't rocket science. Her body language really doesn't come in to it.

You just don't do that.

[Deep13]

40. I agree it was stupid and creepy.

And again, he may have intended to put her on the defensive. I have no idea what he was thinking. I am merely responding in general to the previous post which noted that men can be fucking stupid sometimes.

[Evoman]

38. You make some good points.

After all, there has to be a reason men are so clueless. A big part of the cluelessness is lack of introspection about our own behaviours.

Many men are clueless. Many men are just assholes and don't care about the discomfort they cause.

[Odin2005]

39. I think this is less misogyny than it is social cluelessness.

Misogyny can exacerbate the problem, of course, but is the social cluelessness along with a sexist assumption that men are supposed to be the initiators that it the root of the problem. A nerdy, shy guy can look like a total creep without even meaning to. I should know, because I've been in that position.