I don't get it

[mrgorth]

How can the radicals who are for keeping Terri Schiavo alive at all costs be so certain that God does not want her? How can they not see themselves as interferring with God's will? How can people who believe that Heaven is the afterlife be so against people getting there. I was raised RC and I lean towards the pro-life sign but I have no understanding of this.

[ElectroPrincess]

1. That makes two of us mrgorth ...

There's no simple answer but it does have a lot to do with these folks NOT fully understanding that it's the "higher brain centers" within the cerebral cortex that makes a person conscious and aware of their surroundings.

An Intact Brain Stem (all that's functional with Terri) will allow you to track objects, react to touch stimuli and other housekeeping features (breathing etc.), but PAIN and CONSCIOUSNESS are experienced *only* within the cerebral cortex.

Terri's cerebral cortex is dead ergo for all cognition, Terri's brain dead. These people are interpreting her reflexive reactions as awareness.

No scientific evidence will sway them otherwise.

But yes, I believe that it's right not to use extra-ordinary medical measures such as a feeding tube to keep her alive. I believe God wishes to have her with Him in Heaven. To keep force feeding her through artificial means, would be to delay her release to be with Our Savior.

[DemBones DemBones]

4. God would have taken her if He thought it was time.

The right to die is becoming the duty to die once you become an inconvenience to someone.

How long before some husband petitions the courts to remove a feeding tube from his wife who is conscious but unable to cook his meals or do his laundry? Surely a person who is unable to work is not fully human and therefore better off dead?

[ElectroPrincess]

6. I don't see it happening - she's cerebrally brain DEAD not damaged /eom

[hedgehog]

34. I beg to differ

People die every day due to sin - whether it's from murder or hunger. If free will makes it possible to kill people before their time, why couldn't it make it possible to hang on to people who are ready to leave? I've never believed that it's God's will that terrible things happen. I do believe that God mourns with us and for us. After all, "Jesus wept."

[Midlodemocrat]

38. I disagree.

Free will on the part of the doctors and her family have kept her alive. The medical community has far outpaced the religious community in terms of what is 'medically necessary'.

[etherealtruth]

2. Make that three of us ...

Electroprincess "said" it all.

[DemBones DemBones]

3. If God wants Terri, He will take her.

I'm for everyone going to Heaven but I am against KILLING them to get them there.

This is a very big issue in DISABILITY RIGHTS. That is being widely ignored by the media and by most people on DU. Check out the Disability Issues Forum and see how disabled DUers feel about it -- and how some self-proclaimed liberals trash us for it.
It's no surprise to us as we have been talking for years about the problem that liberals don't understand or care about disability rights issues. We were saying this on DU long before we had a forum to discuss our issues, a forum that is rarely visited by the abled unless they find out there's a thread to bash us on.

This society is going to Hell in a handbasket and fast.

[ElectroPrincess]

8. That's what our mortal existence was meant to be - strife and testing

We suffer and serve the Lord to the best of our human ability because later, in the afterlife, we will receive our reward.

Because of "free will" and "original sin" we were NOT meant to experience a just world. We were meant to suffer.

And for the Humanists <eg> don't make me break out into a verse of "I never promised you a rose garden." <teasing>

[XanaDUer]

11. Here is the problem I have with this argument

It makes it too easy to dismiss injustices when we perceive them.

Catholics are required to also fight injustices, make the world a better place (as are Jews), as well.

Stepping back and saying, "Well, due to free will, I guess X will just have to suck it up" is not an excuse to let the weak be preyed upon by the strong.

[ElectroPrincess]

13. Sure we should fight injustices, but this is a personal FAMILY matter

I don't want laws passed telling me that I HAVE to keep a feeding tube in my body when I'm permanently brain dead.

Jesus NEVER would want laws dictating how we should treat our sick. Would he? He would want *the individual* to make the right choices. In this case the person who is chosen (her Guardian) is her husband.

[XanaDUer]

14. Well, he raised Lazarus from the dead.

Now, as for this "family matter" stuff: domestic violence was once considered a family matter. Does that make it correct and just?

So was child abuse. And it's still wrong.

[DemBones DemBones]

18. If you want to play WWJD,

Jesus said that what we do to the sick and the dying is done to Him.

Think about that when you want to call this "mercy."


We are killing Jesus, in the person of Terri Schiavo, by denying Him food and water.

[DemBones DemBones]

22. That doesn't sound like Catholic theology to me. nt

[XanaDUer]

5. She is into day 10+

How are you so certain she wants to die?

How does pulling a feeding tube (not breathing ventilator, but a feeding tube) and killing someone from lack of food and hydration not be playing god?

We are all going to die anyway, why hurry it along?

[ElectroPrincess]

7. Dehydration is a beautiful and natural way to die ... our ancestors

have done so through the ages.

A feeding tube is a "medical intervention".

Terri is NOT being killed, she is FINALLY receiving her reward that was unduly delayed by medical science. Her cognition has been gone for years. I find it cruel that they artificially kept a brain dead woman fed just because her brain stem was functional.

Terri will soon be in Heaven. We should be happy for her. May God help her parents understand God's love.

[Cuban_Liberal]

9. She's not being killed?

But for the removal of hydration and nutrition, she would be very much alive.

[XanaDUer]

20. No, she's just being nudged along on the path to Heaven.

Eom.

[XanaDUer]

10. A feeding tube is NOT medical intervention

anymore than me eating an apple and drinking a glass of water is medical intervention. But it keeps me alive, if I do it reguarly (eat).

I would actually find giving her a shot of morphine a less cruel way to die that dragging it out in the "beautiful and natural" way of dehydration/starvation.

Getting ripped to shreds by hungry lions might also be a natural way to die. So might a whole lot of other ways.

[ElectroPrincess]

12. We disagree - I believe that a feeding tube IS a medical intervention ...

If one of my ancestors back in South Dakota suffered from the Flu in the late 1800s, they would be taken to "the barn" so as to prevent the other family members from becoming ill. The foregoing is not cruel, it's survival of the family. If that person became so ill so as to be unable to take in nourishment, they would be made as comfortable as possible. However, they would die a peaceful death from dehydration.

ALL OF NATURE has been using this very peaceful way to die. The invention of the feeding tube does not give us the right to INTERVENE when a person has no ability to "feel" or "think".

Terry Schiavo is no longer "Terri." What was left of the person known as "Terri" died when her higher brain center's died. A functioning brain stem is NOT a cognitive human being.

IMHO it's cruel to prolong life of a Cerebrally brain dead human being through the *intervention* of a feeding tube.

Even wild animals are permitted to die in peace when they are old and mortally wounded. These creatures choose an isolated place from which to pass on through dehydration. There's no better or peaceful NATURAL way to die than the above.

[Cuban_Liberal]

15. I can't accept a definition of life that is dependent on brain function.

That relativistic position of what life is is the very precipice of a VERY steep slope that, once we begin our descent, we may well find that we have no 'brake' to prevent our further precipitous descent.

[Princess Turandot]

33. If you don't think life depends upon brain function..

does this mean that you think that Jesus came to redeem all other species on the earth? It seems to me that could be one interpretation of your statement. We are human because we have highly developed cerebral cortexes. It not only separates us from other animals from an ability perspective, but it also puts humans in the unique position to know right from wrong, and have views on all of the moral things which get bandied about in this group. To say that human life has nothing to do with its higher order brain says that we are no different than our evolutionary cousins, the Great Apes. That makes no sense.

I do not believe that the evaluation of life from a review of brain wave function is a slippery slope. It has been going on for decades, and whatever potential evil some folks think this case can stir up, doesn't seem to have appeared in all of that time. Go visit a ventilator ward at a nursing home, even a Catholic one. You will see lines of beds with mostly elderly comatose people who lay there unconscious on vents because a relative chose to to put them on life support, or no relative or DNR was present, so the hospital had no choice but to put them on life support. (This is in NYS; laws may vary elsewhere.) My mother was in a Catholic nursing home for over a year with one of those wards on her floor. I never saw anyone visiting these patients. They lay there until some organ fails and they die. Medicaid, rather than the Church foots their bills. No one rushes in to turn off these folks ventilators. They are alive in the sense that there are higher brain waves recorded for them but do not have working brain stems, so they cannot breath on their own. No one is rushing to take them off of ventilators, but whether there is any dignity to their lives at that point is very questionable.

[XanaDUer]

16. I don't mean to sound rude

but how do you know all this? How do you know that what was left of Terri is gone?

I would like to see an independent medical look into just what is and what is not there.

Now, let's say that she is totally gone. No higher-brain function at all. She is still alive. She can still feel. How is it not cruel to starve someone and, even worse, dehydrate them to death?

In other words, she is alive with the feeding tube. Pulling it kills her. Over quite a while.

Just so you know, if she had had a written directive, then I say pull away. Out goes the tube.

EDIT: I don't know if Terri is still Terri, whatever that means, but I believe in erring on the side of keeping her alive rather than killing her. Which is why I also do not support the death penalty.

[ElectroPrincess]

17. I don't claim *absolute* expertise, but I did work hard ...

and earned a Masters Degree in Physiological Psychology from a State University. My thesis was on "Divided Visual Field Studies."

That's precisely why I'm so frustrated by lay-people who will not listen to medical science.

Why are you people so intent on delaying her entry into Heaven? Terri's not like those people who they parade as miraculous recoveries ... not at all and that's cruel and false hope.

Terri does NOT have brain waves, just a functioning out pocket of neural tissue that performs the BASIC housekeeping function.

I hope and pray you are not successful in delaying her soul from heaven ANY longer. IMHO it is those who wish to re-insert medical intervention (feeding tube) who are in error.

Why you refuse to believe that God wants Terri now, I am at a complete loss. As I mentioned in my previous post, God often allows wild animals the dignity to roam into isolation and "let go" of their bodies by not taking in nourishment.

Why can't you show the similar thoughtfulness for this dear woman to die a NATURAL death?

[XanaDUer]

19. Well, first of all, I am at a loss at the

let's-kill-her-so-she-can-get-into-heaven philosophies you are espousing.

This type of attitude is what turned me into an atheist. If God wants her, I wish He would take her. I just found out that she was administered a morphine suppository.

So, you examined her brain-wave patterns? You are privy to her private medical information? You have met with her and assessed her particular situation?

Starvation is not a natural death, my very point. Each side, the parents' medical consultants, and the husband's medical consultants, each will find what they are paid to find. I feel the truth lies somewhere in between the two. Each have their own agendas. I tend to feel that her parents' and family's agenda is somewhat more pure than her husband's.

[DemBones DemBones]

21. You are comparing the natural inclination of a dying person to

take in less and less fluid or nutriment to a woman who was physically healthy until nurses and doctors shut off her supply of food and nutriment suddenly.

A child thrown in the water will generally learn to swim, more or less, as a matter of self-preservation. It's not now considered an acceptable method for teaching swimming (although, by God, our ancestors used it, you might say.)

Terri is like a child thrown in the water with her arms and legs tied.

She won't be able to make it out of this alive so you are arguing this is a "natural" death.

We'll ALL be in Heaven one day. Why don't you just go now? Could it be that you think that is God's decision and not yours?

[ElectroPrincess]

24. I'm a pro-life practicing Catholic ... and with the points made

within my last post, I rest my case.

Peace be with you :-)

[XanaDUer]

25. Hell yeah.

Let's all start whacking each other. We can fill up Heaven even faster.

This is 14+ years of Catholic education talking here, and I don't believe this is Catholic dogma, unless something has changed in the last 15 years.

[elshiva]

26. I just wish that people would be consistent and

help EVERYONE who is sick like her. It is unfair to use this woman as a political tool. The Bush Administration has not cared so much for many, many people for instance they have basically pull the plugs on the vets by not supporting their medical care.

[XanaDUer]

28. I agree with that 100%

I am angry at Terri being used as a political football, tossed around to score a winning goal, but then tossed aside when polls indicated that this issue was not popular with the American public.

I am especially angry with Jeb Bush. How dare he get her family's hopes up like that and then drop her when she became too hot to handle.

All sick, ill, and disabled people need help everywhere.

[elshiva]

29. It's window-dressing.

RW supports a culture of life? NO! Pro-war, pro-screwing the poor IS NOT pro-life. I am so tired of that. And Tom DeLay made the decision to take his dad off of life support, but wouldn't bloody shut the hell up about Terri.

[DemBones DemBones]

30. In fairness of Tom Delay (words it PAINS me to have to say), his mom was

the one who had the final say-so about his dad plus his dad was on a ventilator and his kidneys were failing. It would have been a lot more pain for the elder Delay to, um, delay the inevitable.

[XanaDUer]

32. I know, I cannot stand the man myself

but that is correct.

[XanaDUer]

31. Of course they are full of it

In Terri's case, I was hoping they would do the right thing, if even for the wrong reason, since a person's life was at stake in this case.

[XanaDUer]

27. As my mother's cancer metastasized

and she became more ill, she stopped eating as much food. I certainly did not withhold it from her!

She grew weaker and weaker. She was not basically healthy, as Terri Schiavo is.

[DemBones DemBones]

23. I'll try one more time to get the message through by

quoting a disability rights slogan:

I support the right to die.

YOU go first.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

35. If it's truly God's will, she'll die when he wants her to.

We all have a time when we're going to die, and we'll meet our maker then...Not a minute sooner or later. Thinking that we as humans can interfere with that is arrogant of us.
Duckie

[DemBones DemBones]

36. Hi, Duckie! Where have you been? We've missed seeing you here!

:hi:

[YellowRubberDuckie]

39. My star lapsed...

then last night a good Samaritan gave me a star. Just goes to show you that you should be nice to EVERYONE.
Oh, and by the way, I'm officially a catholic now...:)
Duckie

[Cuban_Liberal]

41. Welcome back, lovely Duckie!

We've MISSED you!

:hug::loveya:

[mrgorth]

37. For all you people that think removing a feeding tube is murder

How about if "all she needed" was a ventilator and a feeding tube. You see a slippery slope one way and I see it the other. My wife's grandfather is currently being kept alive well after his time because his son, who has power of attorney, thinks he still might come out of it. While I disagree with him I know he has PoA so I have no dog in this fight.

[Misunderestimator]

40. I completely agree... it makes no sense...