A complicated family situation

[funkybutt]

I just found this group after an upsetting phonecall I recieved from my mother. It's a long story but I'll try to give you the jist. Almost 2 years ago, my mother had a break down of some sort that involved her attacking my sister and her husband (mostly her husband). My mom's mom did a very similar thing to my mom. It seems to be a pattern where the mother decides that the spouse or S.O. of the daughter is some kind or sociopath and attempts to turn the family against him. My mom was hospitalized as was my grandmother due to behavior relating to this phenomenon.

Anyway, my sister made the decision almost 2 years ago that she did not want to expose her family to such abuse/terror. She has cut off all contact with her. My brother and I have remained in contact with our parents but on a different level than before. Our family is splintered. My parent's continued to get "help" from a doctor who failed to help our mother during two periods of the above described behavior. They have refused to seek out another professional in spite of requests from their children.

Today, my mom calls me at work and tells me how she misses the way we were "best friends" before. She still blames the whole situation on both of my sister's male counterparts of whom she doesn't approve. She basically still doesn't seem to accept much responsibilty for what happened or any remorse. I feel bad that our relationship is not the same as it was but I know that things can't just go back to being like they were before these episodes, especially when she still won't accept any blame. How am I the bad guy here? I'm just trying to make the best of things as they are and she calls me the day after mothers day to tell me that she doesn't think I've handled this situation fairly. I feel sick! WTF am I supposed to do?

[Droopy]

1. Do you know of any diagnosis that your mother has gotten?

It sounds as if she's got some paranoia going on. Did she physically attack your brother in law and sister or was it just verbal abuse?

I think you are handling it well so far considering the information that you have given us. I guess it would be good to try to be there for your mother, but you have to let her know that her behavior towards your relatives is unacceptable.

[funkybutt]

2. It was more of a 6 week long terrorism of my sister and bro in law

she snapped when my brother in law told her to watch her language around their kids..then after that it was crazy phonecalls, letters, threats. She said she was going to ruin him and his reputation. She claimed that he was physically abusive, a thief, ect.

Then she kicked my father out (her husband of 35 years) claiming that he was lazy and dependent.

It was very traumatizing for all of us.

[Droopy]

4. Oh crap

Sounds like your mom has more problems than I thought. Check out Borderline Personality Disorder. It sounds like she could be exhibiting some of the symptoms of that disorder from what I've heard others say about it.

[Sugarbleus]

16. I'm once again wondering about BPD in my daughter...

We are in the midst of a hellish crisis brought on by my sadly dysfunctional adult daughter.

I don't know what else to do but break ties with her altogether. It's all so sad and frightening. :(

[knowbody0]

3. i have a similar situation

with the father of my daughter. he went insane in a profound way. actually locked up for one year as criminally insane, chemically dependent.
i could not forget the things he did..my own spirit told me i needed to protect my child from him.
i visited him several times and just could never find the person i had loved.
it is just so difficult now after all the "chemical" therapy, it is as if the other him has left his body, and another has invaded it.
good luck with your mom. and i admire you for standing by her.

[DemExpat]

5. My thoughts.....

for self-preservation and protection I cut off all but the most necessary contact with my Mom for several years when she was using her children in a similar manner as how you describe your Mom doing.

Your last paragraph states that she called you twice in the past week to complain and work on your guilt feelings - this IMO will go nowhere fast, and is up to you to put a stop to it now.

It is such a painful situation, tears you up inside whatever you choose to do, but until she owns up to her behavior and apologizes to you all, there really is nothing you can do to make it all better again.

I told my Mom how I experienced her behavior one night when I gathered up all of my outrage AND love for her - so I did it in a calm and affectionate manner. It hurt her to hear the truth, but after that she did make much more of an effort to monitor her behavior to her adult kids.

Good luck, I know how painful this is.

:hug:

DemEx

[EFerrari]

6. Your mom may really have experienced the whole thing as she

describes it. Before Doug was stabilized, he did stuff like that when he was under stress and the paranoia kicked in. The aggressiveness was the only way he could figure to try to handle it. He thought I was attacking him, out to hurt him, and all the rest. It was just awful for everyone.

And at the time, everybody thought he was doing it on purpose, not "taking responsibility" and or lying about it. I know he was not.

I've often wondered if looking back, he has a different perspective on it all. In the past, he would gain some insight only to lose again the next time. That doesn't really happen much any more -- or if it does, it's so subtle that it's not visible to me very much.

One small thing you can do that will not solve everything but might make it easier for you to talk to her is to learn to use a communication tool like SET. (Sorry for the rerun, folks, if you remember this.)

SET is a tool that helps you talk to upset people -- even people who are upset enough that they're not really in shared reality with you.

SET stands for: Sympathy, empathy, truth. And the whole idea is, instead of arguing or contradicting or even agreeing when you really can't, you validate that person's feelings and then you speak your truth.

Your mom: I miss how we used to be, when we were best friends.

You: (Sympathy) I see what you mean, sure.
(Empathy) That must be hard for you.
(Truth) (you plug in what you need to say here)

It works. It helps everybody calm down a little. At first when you use this tool, it may feel a little awkward, but with practice, it becomes second nature.

Good luck with this and keep us posted,
Beth

[funkybutt]

14. I've never thought of it that way! Thanks

I'm going to try that SET.

[yardwork]

7. It sounds like you are facing a difficult, distressing situation

You know that there is something wrong with your mom. She won't seek better professional support. Now it sounds like your mother is trying to lay a guilt trip on you and manipulate your emotions.

There is a book called _Stop Walking on Eggshells_ that might help. It includes tips on dealing with close friends and family members who have Borderline Personality Disorder. It's hard to tell if that is your mom's problem, but it sounds like it could be, and maybe the book will help. The overall message is that the other person's illness is the other person's problem - you have to protect yourself.

Good luck to you. DU hugs!

Edit to add link to book on amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/157224108X/ref=pd_sxp_elt_l1/102-3867770-5024967

[EFerrari]

8. The problem I have with SWOE is exactly

what you describe: it says the other person's illnes is their problem and that you have to protect yourself. It's a classic "You're okay, but that guy is not okay."

Which doesn't finally work in families because it's never that neat. We interact all the time. So do our wacky places :)

I worked with both of those authors and when I started my own group, Paul Mason came over with me to see if we could find a more workable way for families to deal with these situations. He's been lending a hand with us now for years. Randi sort of never understood what I meant, that's all right.

I guess, I wouldn't recommend that book because it bottom, it tends to polarize the family where that's sort of the problem in the first place.

My mouthy .02.

[DemExpat]

9. What is a good book on borderline in your opinion?

:hi:

DemEx

[EFerrari]

10. Good question.

Marsha Linehan's workbook is hard to read on your own. My friend Valerie Porr has a book out with a specialist but, I've never read it. (Hmm, I should ask her for a review copy.)

To be truthful, Burn's book, "Feeling Good" has been the most helpful for us. Because it is clear and has exercises that make sense and work. It's for depression but really, it has worked great for dealing with BPD.

I'd be happy to mail out my little mock up. It's just a record, really, of the stuff we had to deal with for a year's period. It has some tools in it, some conversations I had with the support group. I don't sell it but have just been mailing it out to people who might be interested and who might have feedback for me.

But, Burns has been really helpful in trying to learn to manage feeling, thinking and moods - instead of being managed by them. :)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0380810336/102-2638650-7796941?v=glance

/typin'

[yardwork]

11. Thank you for your insider's insight!

I've been participating in a Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) group using Linehan's workbook. I don't have Borderline Personality Disorder. My diagnoses are depression and anxiety. Therapists have found that lots of people benefit from Linehan's DBT methods. I feel fortunate to have been referred to the group because it has had an enormously benefical impact on my life.

I agree that it would be difficult to use Linehan's materials alone, though. One needs a group and skilled facilitators. A lot of universities and medical centers offer DBT groups.

I'd recommend DBT to anyone struggling with a Borderline partner or close family member. The skills would be helpful.

[EFerrari]

12. Marsha's work is AWESOME. When we did it at our kitchen table

(there was no one in town available to us) we worked over the phone with a therapist who assigned us stuff to do and helped us interpret the different pages, their goals and so on.

At the time, we were living in the L.A. area. There was one clinic that did DBT and to this day, I have no evidence that they actually did it anywhere but on paper. So, we had to improvise.

[funkybutt]

13. I thank you all for your honest and respectful insight...here's an update

My mom called me last week and kind of apologized. I didn't know how to respond without anger, so I chose not to call her back after this initial phone call. I considered writing a letter but everything that I came up with to write about wasn't positive and it could be hurtful to her. Yet I still have a desire for her to hear MY side of what I've witnessed through this whole ordeal. Unfortunately I just don't think that would help the situation either. So I'm kind of mute.

Anyway, she called me a week or so after this conversation and said that she had been "feeling sorry for herself" when she called and didn't mean to upset me. I told her that it was alright and that I know this is hard for her but it's also hard for me and I really don't see how I'm supposed to do anything about it. I also told her that if she's aware that she was not sane during these terrible times in our family, then she should not try to defend her words and actions of that period b/c that gives ME the impression that she thinks what she did was justified and that everything is everyone ELSE's fault. I believe that if she was in a diminished capacity at the time of these situations that she gets so defensive about, then she could just say "i wasn't thinking straight" or "i wasn't myself" or whatever.

I'm not sure if she understood my point. But we are on speaking terms and I think she'll be coming to visit in a few weeks. Wish me luck.

I'm also a little disturbed by everyone's opinion that she is "borderline'. She has been in frequent contact (due to my father) with a Psychiatrist and several psychologists for OVER 15 YEARS! I believe she said she was diagnosed as bipolar after this episode 2 years ago (by someone I feel is incompetent). When I mentioned on the phone that I felt that she should have received help from them far earlier b/c she had taken pretty much every other member of our family in for a diagnosis yet she never was evaluated that I know of. The reason I'm disturbed by the Borderline thing is: she always accused OTHERS of being borderline. She said that my sister's husband was one and her significant other before him was also one, she claimed. Whenever she "waged war" against someone, she would claim that they were Borderline. I'm not saying that she isn't Borderline, I just know that isn't her current diagnosis (not that I necessarily respect this particular physician who diagnosed her). When she was breifly committed to a facility, i believe that they too diagnosed her as bipolar.

On edit: I believe she told me when I was a kid that her mom was committed to a psychiatric facility (very similar situation as this) and was diagnosed as borderline. Her mother (my grandmother) was claiming that my father was a spy for the KGB and was feeding cocaine to us kids! ( I was a small child then so this is hearsay)

[EFerrari]

15. Hi there,

Well, it sounds like you really know how to talk to your mom. :)

Three things: Borderline is not a death sentence at all. Ask me. I love my big old BPD managing husband, all 280 lbs of him. He's coming home today after headlining out of town and will probably be grumpy as hell from all the stress. lol

Two, Bi-polar and Borderline are often confused even by experts. And, to make things just a little more confusing, they often are co-occurring.

Three, when my husband was having an episode, he usually felt/thought/knew and "accused" me of what he was feeling, thinking, knowing or doing. This situation isn't special to being Borderline, but in my lay understanding, has much more to do with feeling really scared, and projecting -- in other words, being so afraid that you literally put those things on the nearest person in order to save yourself from feeling the pain of them.

Does that make sense?

Imho, the most important thing is to deal with the moment, and the labels can go take a hike. If they're not useful or right or whatever, who needs 'em? :hi:

/typin'

[Sugarbleus]

17. Got one helluva complication in family in last three days too!

My adult daughter whom we suspect is not only ADHD but also suffering BPD.

She's been living here since Jan. Helped clean house and run errands etc. I'm raising her son for five years also. She was released from prison in Jan. She's been a hyper little bugger but got things done. Then she became obnoxious and took over the house, so to speak.

I won't tell the whole tale but I will tell you this: I just discovered by accident that she's been robbing my bank for two months!!!! She hid my bank statments and stole my credit card too.

She took $2441 out of my bank via ATM withdrawals. We ARE BROKE. We have to pay back all the bounced checks and POS's. We are on fixed incomes: SSDI, Foster Care, and a small wage of about $357 per month<---that one is in the rears by four months (not getting that check continually)

My companion gets SSI $805 per month. I had to use his account yesterday to pay ALL the bills and rent. We now have about $400 including cash on hand to last the rest of the month!! More bills will be due on the 15th and the "overdraft" fees from bank keep pouring in each day since I found this out. :scared:

I tossed the bad girl OUT. Her son is crushed and sobbing about maybe he could have helped her...blaming himself. We are SO SCREWED. :( :(

[Droopy]

18. That's a hard life

I don't know what your daughter was thinking. It could be that she is suffering from a mental illness and it could be that she is just a bad person or a combination of the two. Every time I hear a story like your's I wish I was unimaginably rich and could help people out who fall into such a situation.

Why don't you start a thread here in the group and tell everybody what happened? I'm sure you will get more responses that way and possibly get some ideas for coping with your current situation.

[Sgent]

19. I'm so sorry

You have to make this decision, but if you turn her in for fraud you probobably won't be responsible for the amount she took from your account, and all overdrafts will be reversed. However, there's a good chance she'll wind up in prison again.

As for the original poster, can I suggest that maybe you ask your mom to attend a joint therapy session with you? This may give you both a chance to be more honest with your feelings in a safe place. It also might be a chance for you to learn more about her illness, and for her to learn more about how it has affected you and your sister.

[EFerrari]

20. Ack! That's horrendous!

I hope hope you've called your credit card company and your bank!

[Sugarbleus]

21. Yes, I've been in almost constant contact with bank...

It's horrendous. I cannot tell you how numb I feel. :wow: <--pretty much explains where my head is at right about now.

I cancelled one credit card but just today, even though I have another card back in my possession, I got a call from their offices. It's too late to call back but I'm hoping she didn't use that one to go off charging up the "Jersey Turnpike", to coin a phrase..

I called the bank again today to inquire on my balance... $0.00 w/$117 still in overdraft charges. They were suppose to take only half of my direct deposit until I could pay the entire amount in two months. Instead, they took the entire direct deposited amount....$1059.50

I have two checks in my possession (disability checks)that we could maybe muddle by on, but I'm afraid they will not cash them...I'll have to go in on Monday to see what I can do.

Until then, I guess we'll be living off of credit cards--there's NO food in the house and more bills are due on the 15th. :( :scared: :(

I chose not to press charges because I'm also raising her son and he went to Pieces worrying about his mother going back to prison. I just couldn't be the one to "pull the switch" on his mother. I chose instead to just toss her ass out on the street. Stay away, don't come back and don't call. PERIOD. I've lost a daughter

Yes, my adult daughter (38 yr) is suffering some mental illness; probably BPD and ADHD. She turns to drugs to ease her emotional pain. That's probably where the money went, but she also has a "spending problem" too. Very immature and reckless, but comes across as articulate and smooth and caring...(???)

Thanks all for listening to my horror story. As if living under Shrubya wasn't bad enough... :cry:

[Droopy]

22. Your daughter might be better off in jail

At least she will be getting meals, shelter and a bed. And in the mean time you could have a legitimate excuse to get the debt that she caused forgiven.

[Sugarbleus]

23. I can't argue with that. I wonder how long

I could wait before I filed a complaint, just in case. I mean sometimes there's a statue of limitations on when one can press charges...

We are in deep shit trouble, that's for sure.

[EFerrari]

24. So sorry you're having to deal with this.

Imho, it would be a good idea to call your local Bar Association on Tuesday. Because I don't think your bank can hold you responsible for ATM withdrawals that you didn't make.

You might want to check with a lawyer, and you can do it for free via the Bar association referral line.

:hug:

[Sugarbleus]

25. Well, from the start it was a choice between pressing charges or

not doing so. I'm also raising my g.son...daughter's son. He is utterly beside himself with anguish over his mother possibly going back to jail.

Sooooooo, WE ARE stuck with paying this thing off. We are not happy campers either way.

G.son, 17 yo, is out right now trying to get this mother into a detox facility, poor guy. When my daughter goes wonky, she turns to drugs or just "spending" to alleviate her personal suffering. G.son called to tell me they were at the janus house (detox) AND that his mother is promising to sign over part of her workers comp check to me as restitution. Ha, I'll believe the money when I see it.

For now, we are having to live off of credit cards, I guess. We'll be in debtors hell until we die!! WE have one loaf of bread, one dozen eggs, one gal of milk, some rice, and ZERO balance in the bank and no money at hand. The bank took my direct deposits already. I had to use hubby's meager SSI account to pay the rent and a few bills, now his account is at minimum; approx $291. More bills will be due on the 15th.

I'm sick to my stomach with grief.

What a mess but THANK YOU ALL for caring; I appreciate it so much.



Happy Independence Day all... :patriot: :cry:

[EFerrari]

27. Hey, I wanted to check in and see how you're doing.

I've been thinking about you and your daughter and your Gson.

[Sugarbleus]

28. Hi sfexpat!! Just dropped in to see what's up...

Since you asked... Daughter is gone. Haven't heard from her, don't know where she is. G.son took her clothes to her and that's that.

When I finally made face to face contact with the bank, they first told me that I may not have had a "case" against daughter because <I> actually gave her the card and pin number..soooo

Just as I had thought/worried, the bank TOOK the entire direct deposits for two checks on the 1st of July.(thank goodness I didn't write our rent out on that account) They applied it towards the outstanding debt. So, when I got my one "in-the-mail" check later on, I took it in to be face to face with a teller/manager. I told them I could NOT live on zero bucks for the rest of the month. I told them I WILL pay the debt--which was then down to $117--at latest by the next DIRECT DEPOSIT in Aug.. I asked them to cash the one I had in hand and NOT take any money from it...we NEEDED IT.

They complied. THANK GOODNESS! I still needed to pay more bills that come around in mid month so I put that cash into S.O.s account so we could write checks.

A week later, S.O.s sister sent us a large check after hearing our plight. BLESS HER. We are now current, paid up and feeling groovy. LOL

I've paid off all the over drafts, the misused and late fee charge card amounts, and have ALL cards in my possession. Everything else that comes to the house is shredded immediately.

We were REALLY really sick to our stomachs for several days. I was numb and unable to become angry even. Eventually, I went and joined a mental health group (online) for people who have family members with Borderline Peronality Disorder. I've received a plethora of info and support. I can't even begin to tell you the understanding I'm getting from those groups. NOW I understand my Dt. I don't have to have her around me, but I can love her from a distance.

It's her life, she needs to live it for herself. I can quit trying to live it for her.......enable, rescue, enable,rescue...:puke:

G.son is doing much much better. He is calm and his mood is "light". He's been pretty helpful and loving towards me.

I feel less stressed over this one issue; I went out to a demonstration/march today--met some very interesting people (AND got a shot of myself on TV news LOL), got my hair cut, dusted off the sewing machine, played in my garden, and just feel "calmer" these past few days. I bought a book today called: Stop Walking on Eggshells...'twas highly recommended. I will get off of here now, grab some chocolate and go start reading it.

Thanks for your concern and care........I cannot tell you enough how much I appreciate it. :hug: SB

PS: How are YOU doing?

[EFerrari]

29. Glad to hear your situation is resolved.

:)

[elehhhhna]

26. Cash the disability checks at an exchange, not your bank. VOILA.

Good luck, honey.

[Sugarbleus]

30. Thanks for the info elehhhhna

We seem to be on an even keel...for now. Thanks so much for your interest and care.. :hug: SB