Proposed: that God is pro-choice, since God gave us freewill.

[elshiva]

Discuss.

[RevCheesehead]

1. What's to discuss?

Nail squarely hit on head. :)

[elshiva]

2. Thanks, RevCheesehead!

:toast:

Have you ever seen those bumperstickers that say, "God is Pro-Life?" Have you ever commented about abortion in one of your sermons?

[RevCheesehead]

3. Not directly.

I do mention that Jesus says nothing about abortion, gay marriage, homosexuality, etc.., but he DOES say to feed the poor, clothe the naked, visit prisoners, etc...
It's all about context. :)

[elshiva]

4. Yes, I understand that there is other more important issues, but

in the context of poverty? Is that what you mean by context?

[RevCheesehead]

5. The context of whatever the lectionary text is.

I always try to stay on topic. If the text says "give to the poor," it's pretty obvious. But if it's about hypocritical pharisees, I go to town, comparing them to modern-day Fristians. You know, attack SpongeBob, Harry Potter, because of some perceived "evil" that doesn't exist.

I'm not a "topical" preacher. I had a great homiletics prof, who insisted that we "preach the text," not preach whatever we want. I think it's one of those things which marks a great preacher. You can't "insert" stuff into the bible, but you sure can mine some gems, if you dig around long enough!

[elshiva]

6. True, true. Our pastor is on the text, too.

Just interested I guess in the pastoral context of what to do?

[Sgent]

7. Very important idea to follow....

In the old Levitcus laws, the penalty for killing someone intentionally was death.

The same laws described the penalty for killing the fetus of a pregnant women depended...

1) If after the quickening, then it was a monetary compensation.

2) If before the quickening, there was no penalty for killing the fetus -- just what would have been imposed for assault.

So we know God doesn't conder a fetus the same as a life -- and in fact recongizes a continum.

[GOPBasher]

8. I don't know, but I want to echo RevCheesehead, and say

that Jesus never said anything about abortion, yet he talks a great deal about helping the poor and destitute, not judging others and being more concerned with your own sin, forgiveness, turning the other cheek, blessing the peacemakers, etc. So, those Christians who vote solely on abortion seem to be missing something in my eyes. I still don't know about God being pro-choice though.

By the way, Hello Elshiva and RevCheesehead! :hi:

[RevCheesehead]

9. Pro-Choice = Free will.

It's just part of the human equation. God sets the planets in motion, then says "go. love. learn. forgive."

It's a question of control. Do we have self-determination, or not? I still contend that while the fetus is in the woman's body, it's HER choice. For some reason, many men just don't get that.

Nice to see ya, GOPBasher! :hi:

[GOPBasher]

10. Just to clarify, I'm pro-choice.

I'm pro-choice due to a belief in the separation of church and state, and the inside of a mother's womb belongs to her and God, not the state. I appreciated hearing your take on it, too, being a pastor and all. :-)

[usregimechange]

11. Even if Jesus opposed abortion would he support Gov. intervention?

But of course Jesus had no idea what abortion was 2,000 years ago.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

12. I see you and up you one

When man over regulates individual choices (i.e. abortion, gay rights etc.) doesn't that effectively deny an individual God's gift of free will, which in turn denies God's gift of free will?

It is hard for me to express my thinking on this, so don't take it the wrong way.

[elshiva]

13. Excellent!

[funflower]

21. Jesus might not have been aware of it, but women have been

terminating pregnancies through various means for a very long time.

[I Have A Dream]

22. I'm sure that abortion existed even 2000 years ago.

Women have always found ways to not be pregnant when they didn't want to be pregnant.

Therefore, I'm sure that Jesus knew what abortion was 2000 years ago.

[More Than A Feeling]

14. He did indeed give us free will

at the same time, in every moment we are called to live out the highest potential human nature has to offer. Not that we live up to that, but that is what is the forgiveness of the Lord is for.

Also, there is a difference between sins which must be banned by law because the community could not survive them (murder, assault, theft) and acts which to regulate would be the greater evil (consensual adult sex, abortion...)

[JVS]

15. Rejected. If that line of reasoning is used, we could justify any sin...

imaginable under a "God let me do it, so He must approve"

Also the matter of our will being truly free is dubious at best.

[auburngrad82]

23. I was told that any sin is forgiven if you accept Jesus

Even murder. That seems to be why the Right Wingers that get caught with their pants down always say "I'm sorry for my indiscretions, but I know that God has forgiven me. Now let's move on."

[FreedomAngel82]

16. He did give us freewill

and with freewill comes choices and consequences. I believe as a woman and a person who was given the freewill from God that I should be the one to make up my mind on when I will have children along with my husband since in a marriage we are seen as equals. I don't want any politician or preacher or whatever telling me how to control my body.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

17. JVS I'm not sure what you are trying to say

I'm my opinion, we ARE given free will. We are also given a conscience, and laws that are man-made and God made (I use Ezekiel 20:25 to illustrate man's knowledge of God's laws.) to guide in our usage of that free will.

As a new convenant Christian (my definition of myself), I have just two commandments: 1. Love God above all else and 2. Love my neighbor as myself. That's it period.

When man tries to dictate God's laws as in the Fundamentalists of Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc., they are behaving like the Pharisees and will incur God's wrath. You see, to try to enforce things that are possibly harmful to only the individual (I am not speaking of murder, sexual or physical abuse of another, etc.) is to make a JUDGMENT on that individual and we are called to not JUDGE LEST we be JUDGED.

Our gift of free will IMO is not suspect, perhaps are utilization of it is not. Did you ever feel really guilty about so meting? Imagine an eternity of it.

[regnaD kciN]

18. Of course, Calvin's followers would disagree with you...

...since he held that free-will was just an illusion, and that everything was predestined by God. :crazy:

[I_Make_Mistakes]

19. Regna

I spoke to my pastor a couple of years ago about pre-destination, she said "I don't think anyone is teaching that anymore".

I used to watch C-span and someone called in and stated that that pre-destination was alive and well. Those poor, illiterate, ignorant Southerners's just don't get it.

I have a question, didn't Calvin teach, that some people are without choice, they are going to HELL no matter what they do?

That is just, well, NUTS!!

[funflower]

20. I am firmly pro-choice, but this line of reasoning doesn't work.

The fact that we are capable of committing an act doesn't mean God is in favor of our committing it.

[I Have A Dream]

24. I don't agree with the logic here. However, I am absolutely...

pro-choice. In fact, it's one of the most important things to me, politically speaking.

I believe that I can't make this extremely important decision for any woman other than myself. I must search my soul and determine whether it is something that is the correct thing for me to do. I can't make that choice for anyone else.

Personally, I don't think that I would ever have an abortion unless I was raped. However, I would in no way judge any woman who would decide that this is something that is correct for her.

However, to say that God is pro-choice because He gave us free will would allow the same logic to be used in reference to murder, rape or anything else like that.