Do you agree that there is a great deal of anti-feminism on DU and if

[efhmc]

you do, why do you think it is so and what can we do as feminists who want things to change to make a difference?

[Finder]

1. Ironically, I see more anti-feminism by females than males...

recently. I think the word feminism is misunderstood by many. Even those that call themselves feminists, unfortunately.

There are many feminist schools of thought so there is bound to be some differences and disagreements but there are basics.

[efhmc]

3. Well how do you define the word? When I use it here, I always mean the

types of response and post like those by Spinzoner one gets when any woman's issue is introduced.

[lukasahero]

7. Per the group rules

"The terms "feminist/feminism"...have established meanings in the context of women's history."

From www.dictionary.com "Feminism: Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes... A doctrine that advocates equal rights for women".

That's probably a good basis from which to start.

[efhmc]

12. Well there it is, well defined and clear. I think I'll add it to my sig.

[ananda]

2. It's everywhere

With a lot of people, there's a kind of backlash kneejerk reaction against being pc (politically correct) or using pc language like "human, humans, humanity" for man or mankind, etc. They don't even try to avoid calling "God" he or him. It makes me sick every time I read their sexist language. I feel so slimed on and disrespected.

Are women part of humanity or humankind or not? Does God have to have a gender in order to be divine? I think not.

Sue

[efhmc]

5. Once got so angry at a pastor (gone now) who said that when women

objected to the use by the church of male language that they had other "issues". No stupid DUH!. But changing language might be a really good place to start. Don't have these issues with the young female or male pastors.

[merh]

4. Definitely Agree.

The sad thing is, the admin, the "final say bunch" are men, so we will always be missing the balance here. I actually have a poster that replied to on of my posts letting me know that he will be following me to challenge my every post. He typed that and it is in the thread. I alerted the mods about my DU stalker, but they won't do anything until things get out of hand, just like in real life, silly female over reacting. :argh:

:shrug: Our little community is a micro-ism of the world.

So glad this group was formed! Thanks so much. :thumbsup:

[efhmc]

6. Sad about that. I sort of started the brouhaha about "bitch-slap" which I

find so offensive and I know for a fact that any type of description that had to do with ones color would not be allowed but that term is????????

[merh]

10. Thanks for the empathy.

Words or names don't bother me half as much as tone and attitude. My moniker is gender neutral, most give my posts credence until they learn I am a female, then they will nit pick them. It is actually quite comical. Doesn't happen all the time, but often enough.

:hi:

[efhmc]

13. I can tell almost within a sentence worth if a reply is agressive,

that it is written by a male especially if it involves something or someone defending women. That is not always accurate but about 99% of the time.

[BlueIris]

8. Anti-feminism? Yep. Misogyny? Yep. Sexism? Yep.

Why is that happening (on DU)? It's emblematic of what's happening in society in general. In America, I've been noticing the rise in anti-feminist rhetoric and attitudes in our society (since the end of the brief resurgence of post-seventies respect for and awareness of feminism that I saw during the Clinton years) mainly since 2000. Gee, I wonder why? We've all seen the serious effort the Bush Administration and organizations that support it (including much of the media) have made to suppress and disempower women--in the workforce, with regard to their healthcare, and in government. But in addition to the misogynist bent to the Administration--more and more feminists I know have been complacent in protecting and defending their civil liberties, in correcting misperceptions about feminists and women, and in discussing feminism with young women and men they know, as well as with those they know of the same age or older who need information about feminism. My suggestion for how to stop the anti-feminist/misogynist/sexist crap on DU from continuing? Take action whenever you see a post with this sort of content in it. Hit alert to notify a moderator of a post with these kinds of offensive, prejudiced remarks. If it's possible to explain to the person who posted the crap why they're statements are inaccurate, inappropriate or wrong, using clear, respectful language, you may want to consider doing that, too.

[efhmc]

9. Responding to those posts seems to get one absolutely nowhere, but

am still putting out the effort. So much of it is insideous and passed off as "just joking".

[BlueIris]

15. Oh, I CANNOT stand the "I was JUST kidding" justification for

offensive statements, misogyny or sexism. Why is it acceptable to couch that shit within the cloak of humor? Are other posters not supposed to be offended because you were (allegedly) joking? The other response I can't tolerate is: "It's just my opinion." So the fuck what? It's still misogynist/sexist/offensive. How is it not disgusting just because it's your opinion?

I agree that some posts are not worth responding to--I hit alert and hope for the best with the really extreme ones. With a lot of others, though, I try to remind the truly ignorant among us why their statements may contain untrue information about women, feminism and/or both. Because I don't think we're going to be able to get the ignorance at least a little paired down if we don't start trying to well, re-explain Feminism 101 to the generation Reagan and Bush failed to educate, and the ones they're trying to brainwash. Not to mention the members of the one who should know what is and is not acceptable to say in polite, civilized society about women and femism--because they grew up during an age when the term feminism was understood and respected--but somehow didn't get the memos about any of it. It's exhausting, it's frustrating, and I don't have the energy to give in 100% everyday, but I try, too. Because anti-femisim is that unacceptable to me.

[Eloriel]

22. Whassamatter, honey, cantcha take a joke?

THE No. 1 defense, probably, by any man challenged by any woman for their sexist remarks and/or, sadly, sexual harrassment on the job and elsewhere. And I despise it too. In fact, I've challenged a number of men on it right here at DU. And will continue to do so.

And yes, it's quite wearying. Sometimes I just put abortion threads on Hidden because it's such a hot button issue for me and I get very tired of fighting it -- especially HERE, of all places!

I've also started saving some of my posts in an effort to put together a set of boilerplate responses. We could do something similar to that here, too -- gather some links and other resources, as well as good explanations for why pix of scantily clad women is, indeed, sexist. And/or do some work in Demopedia.

[efhmc]

36. I think that is a brilliant idea. Also, alert members when very blatant

sexism starts in a thread so we will have a chance to respond.

[geniph]

42. Almost nothing offends me as much

as being told, "oh chill out, calm down, relax, it was just a joke, my opinion, yada yada, why are you so sensitive." Even when it's not directed at me, responding to a criticism of one's ideas by telling others to calm down is a really offensive tactic. It immediately changes the focus from the TOPIC to whether or not the respondent is overly emotional. Time-honored tactic to discredit a female's opinion!

Sometimes I think the best thing to do is to create MALE identities on sites like this, and use those to challenge the misogynists.

[efhmc]

44. So we go into those threads with fake male persona?

[geniph]

49. It's crossed my mind

dishonest, but sometimes I think you have to fight fire with fire...

Not that I'm endorsing it, mind you!

[efhmc]

53. Will you be bold and wild, macho and jerky, kind and thoughtful? What

characteristics will you display as your alterego?

[Chovexani]

54. Going "Undercover"

I think it does help, and not just on explicitly political-based sites.

I play a lot of online games, particularly MUDs, and I was so sick and tired of my female characters constantly being hit on and subjected to harassment, paternalistic treatment, etc. that for a long time I almost exclusively played male characters.

If nothing else, it's a real eye-opener. People in general online tend to assume you're male if you have a gender-neutral handle. It's interesting to me to see how (some) males interact when they assume they are solely in the presence of other males. In gaming environments, misogyny tends to run rampant (though this varies from game to game...you'll probably see more of it on, say, a Quake 3 server than a Pern MUSH). I find that, 9 times out of 10, if my male character said something to challenge a sexist remark I'd be called a pussy or a fag. Neanderthals like that are why I've pretty much given up playing FPS games online with strangers and just go to private servers with my friends. (FPS games are a petri dish just waiting to be examined themselves, what with all the Freudian weaponry and boasts about "owning" other players)

I've had similar experiences with racial issues, to the point where I've felt forced to keep my blackness "in the closet" so to speak when playing some online games.

[efhmc]

55. Are these people Neanderthals or is it just the anonymity that makes

that behavior possible?

[Chovexani]

89. I think it's a little bit of both

I think they harbor Neanderthal attitudes but most of them don't behave that way in real life because to some degree it's socially unacceptable. I think anonymity emboldens them and they feel more comfortable letting loose their inner jerk.

[geniph]

91. Yup, keyboard commandos only.

Most wouldn't dare utter a peep of that kind of nonsense in person. The Fighting 101st Keyborne!

[LisaLynne]

67. That's a brilliant idea.

I was hoping that was what Demopedia would be used for mostly -- gathering responses to the crap the RW spews out there. I think it would be great to get some stuff together that can be used to counter the sexist balony that gets posted here sometimes. Usually, I'm so mad I can't think straight, so I would appreciate the help. :)

[UCLA Dem]

60. They just don't understand that its offensive...

So much of our language revolves around insults that demean women that I don't think many people, especially men understand what they are really saying.

[redqueen]

11. I'm not sure, but someone I discussed this with

claimed that they believed it was a sign that things are changing.

They said in nearly every instance throughout history wherein a previously disadvantaged minority group starts to gain power, that the hostility toward those minority groups grows along with the minority group's power.

Now that women are earning more degrees than men and starting more businesses than men, this person said that we're approaching a watershed moment. Sometime in the next few generations, things should change significantly. Those men who are afraid of losing their power over women are reacting to this situation by ridiculing and trivializing what they're afraid of.

[efhmc]

14. That makes sense but I am not so sure that we are going forward.

Look at the types of radically right female judges the repukes put into power just so they can show their diversity and we look bad if we criticize them.

[redqueen]

16. True, but those are older women.

The change will only start to become apparent as younger women (and men) displace those with outdated views.

[efhmc]

17. Hope you are right but I do not see it in the young women that much

if at all.

[redqueen]

18. Oh well I'm just passing on the opinions of someone else.

I was basically giving him your side of the argument, and what I've posted were his responses. :)

I agree with you that many (most?) younger women don't seem to have any concept whatsoever of what it means to be a feminist. However I have to hope that watching as their right to choose whether or not to carry a pregnancy to term is slowly chiseled away, that many will realize what it means.

[geniph]

43. In general, women become less conservative as they get older

(this does not apply to individuals, obviously, it's a generalization). Probably because they accumulate a lifetime's worth of slights, resentments, bigotry, etc., women generally tend to grow more radical with age. The younger women who protest "imnotafeministbut" for the most part, will slowly change as they realize things really ARE weighted against them in this society.

[efhmc]

45. Once my sister, told me that she had never been treated as less as a

woman in her work, etc. (She is a teacher.) I almost fell on the floor. She was going through life with blinders on. She has since changed her mind.

[noiretextatique]

96. it's not just younger women

:hi: redqueen
unfortuntately many of the black women i know haven't been exposed to feminist thought much...except of the essence magazine variety, which tends to be very male-indentified. of course there is that old stereotype of the black superwoman, and the equally strong stereotype that feminism is for white women. i've also been surprised by the lack of feminist consciousness in the lesbian community in my area, particularly among working class women.

[spooky3]

50. I strongly recommend "Backlash" by Susan Faludi.

She deals with this in painstaking detail and tons of evidence, and it is absolutely fascinating.

Basically, she believes that when women make a little progress, there is a huge backlash against this progress, and regression takes place. Therefore, the hostility toward women should not be seen as having a silver lining as "growing pains" or a natural part of changing that will dissipate as progression naturally continues. Instead, the backlash, if not resisted further, will push women back into "their place."

[Ripley]

19. Yes, Faludi had a huge book about that...it's called Backlash.

Sometimes I don't really think it is a backlash at all, just an underground river of resentment that bubbles up to the surface when it appears that it is socially acceptable. Such as when Reagan was President and now.

And this boiling cauldren of anger towards women can only happen when there are females out there encouraging these attitudes. Coulter is a poster child for this.

[MuseRider]

20. That was a great book!

It really helped me to understand what was happening. I was not in on the beginnings of feminism, born in 1953, but was of age when the "bra burning" started and followed along. All of a sudden it seemed to disappear and I thought it was just me living my life and not paying attention. I had recently married and was expecting a child and I woke up, Reagan was president and it was now again acceptable to treat me with a patriarchal pat on the head and a chuckle. Wow, it seemed to happen overnight and now again, it happened so fast. How is it that we are now having to worry about things that we thought we had already moved past?

Yes, it seems that always there are women out there ready to sell the rest of us out and I just do not get it, never have and I never will.

Edit for spelling

[Finder]

23. I do "get it"

but there is not just one explanation. Some women do not even realize they are doing the bidding of the other side. They have been "handled" for the purpose of doing exactly what they are doing. They feel equal, empowered, successful--think Coulter and Malkin. Can you imagine if they were on our side?

Another group has been brought up to see romantic love, marriage, family as the brass ring. Psychologically they see feminists as a threat.(the myth that feminists are all into free love, sex and keeping men from settling down or trying to steal their husbands)

Also, unfortunately there is a group that is focused on victimhood a bit too much. They put up their own barriers and blame discrimination on any and all failures. They see successful women or those that do not feel helpless as the enemy for some reason.

The funny thing is women from all three groups sometimes call themselves feminists as well.

[Eloriel]

26. Ah, yes, Patriarchy's women, such as Coulter, Schlaffly,

and too many others. These are women who support Patriarchy and are amply rewarded for it (of so they think and hope), even tho it means betraying their own sex. I never understood women like that until I read Jean Shinoda Bolen's "Goddesses in Every Woman," (and I ought to read it again), when I understood it -- well enough at least not to go mad over what I considered an irreconcilable incongruency. If I get a chance I'll pull the book down and skim that chapter (Pallas Athene, I think it is) and excerpt it here.

[Chovexani]

35. That is a powerful book.

It really opened my eyes.

I think you're referring to Bolen's concept of the Athena woman as "father's daughter". In Greek mythology, Athena was the only other Olympian who was entrusted with Zeus' thunderbolts (symbolic of his power). She was his chief strategist in war.

In Bolen's book, the "father's daughter" idea manifests itself in women like Phyllis Schafly who do things like fight against the ERA. More recently, you see it in the Ann Coulters and Michelle Malkins who use their power and status--ironically, things that were earned thanks to the gains feminism made for women--to fight tooth and nail to defend the patriarchal status quo.

[Maat]

116. Why do they do this?

Could you give me a hint until I find the book?

[MuseRider]

47. Thanks

I will look for that one, never heard of it. But what is it that they gain? Wealth? Jewels? A man to take care of them? Are they really satisfied with that? If so then I can at least understand them because that is what we all seek, some kind of satisfaction within ourselves. I have to say, I have never understood being satisfied with ourselves by being "proud" of our husband's accomplishments or the "gifts" he bestows on us. Mrs. Jim So and So.

It makes it very difficult to be what the traditional woman is supposed to be. Sometimes I do take satisfaction by cooking a good meal and cleaning my house but then I get those reactions that make me feel like it was not done because it needed to be or because I wanted to do it, it somehow becomes something else. See what MY woman did for me her MAN. That kind of stuff gets in the way for a lot of us. Does that make sense?

I have to go play a concert so I can't stay and play as happy as that would make me. I think I will be very happy in this forum. Feels good here.

[BlueIris]

21. Faludi lost me with "Stiffed." And I mean LOST me, people.

It's hard for me to say that I have any respect for her as an author anymore because of the content of that book. I almost feel as if that should be its own discussion topic, though.

[Finder]

38. I would love to hear your reasoning

and discuss.

[lukasahero]

24. Ripley!!!!!!!!!!

Was worried about you. Glad to see you here. :hug:

[Ripley]

30. Lukasahero!!!!!

:bounce:

[lukasahero]

40. Cool, isn't it?

:woohoo:

[efhmc]

31. You are so right. The undercurrent is always there just waiting for its

chance to be legitimized.

[spooky3]

51. oops, I just saw your post as soon as I made my post!

[Samurai_Writer]

25. It's everywhere, not just on DU

But you would think it would at least be a bit curbed on DU. It's not. Every single rape, abortion, birth control, or any other feminist thread is viciously attacked by both men and women who don't 'get it'. I posted about a rape that happened the other day, and while most were polite and understanding, there were some in there that were just clueless. You can read it here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=229x2275

And since we are in a safe group now, I can admit, I am the 'girl' in the story. :(

[lukasahero]

27. I'm so sorry Rad

I'm sorry it happened, I'm sorry you were treated so badly in that thread and I'm so sorry I was too obtuse to realize you were speaking of yourself - I remained detached and shouldn't have.

In truth, it was another rape story shared by another member in that same forum that made this group happen. You are safe here. :hug:

[Eloriel]

28. One thing we can do is post links here so we can support one

another, AND help educate the rest of DU when there are threads needing our, um, "attention."

And yes, RadFem, now that I've read your horrifying story, it was definitely rape. Please consider reporting it -- after all there are other women who will suffer if someone doesn't stop him, and please also see your local rape crisis center or a therapist or counselor.

And remember this above all: it wasn't your fault.

Big hugs.

[Bunny]

29. Some of those posts were just despicable.

It's unfortunate that you had to go through that in your thread. I'm glad you have a safe place to talk, if you want to.

[efhmc]

34. If there ever was a straight line back to my question about bias on

DU, there it is. I feel horrible that we (DU)caused more pain but so glad that there is now a safe place for each of us to come.

[Bunny]

37. Amen.

[Chovexani]

32. That thread made me sick to my stomach

I am so sorry for what happened to you, Rad. I really am. That thread made me angry and sick to my stomach. The "Blame the Victim" mentality was in full force. That people were insinuating that it was somehow deserved because you *gasp* owned porn (and only bad girls like porn!)...just...there aren't any words. That thread was 31 flavors of wrong.

I know what you're going through. I was very young when I was date raped (I was only 14), and due to my sheltered, very religious upbringing I was very naive and didn't understand that what happened was in fact rape until years later. Ten years later it is still hard to talk about, mostly because of people like the ones that were talking out of their asses on that thread. I never told anyone about it until I had a very supportive boyfriend come into my life. I am still working through those issues...I had a lot of guilt put on me that I was a "bad" girl, that it was my fault, that I "made myself available" to this pervert (who was nearly twice my age). It really messes with your head in ways people can't really understand unless they've been there.

If you need someone to talk to, I'm here. We all are. :hug:

[efhmc]

33. So, so sorry, sug, Please, please go for some help at a rape crisis

center.

[Generic Other]

52. Rad, call your local Rape crisis center even if just to talk to someone

They have trained advocates who can help you make a third person report to the police. The cops want to know what this guy is up to even if no charges are pressed. You may be helping another woman avoid a similar encounter.

Also, you need to be able to talk about your experience with someone who understands what you are going through. I used to work at a rape crisis center, and I can assure you that we would have taken your story seriously. If you need emotional support, or help negotiating the legal or medical system, you will find plenty of women ready to extend a hand.

You are the victim here. You did not do anything wrong.

:hug:

[redqueen]

56. I'm so sorry...

Reading that thread made me want to cry... I hope you're doing better and getting good help.

Wish I could give you a comforting hug and a shoulder to cry on if you need it...

[geniph]

57. The people who doubted that that was rape

have obviously never been on the receiving end of forced sex themselves. I have. That was rape. I'm sorry it happened to you. I'm sorry it happens to anyone.

Is your back going to be okay? I hope that bastard didn't cause too much physical damage. And I hope there's someone you can talk to about the emotional damage.

I don't use the word hate lightly, but I hate rapists. I really do.

[UCLA Dem]

61. I'm so sorry. All my thought and prayers are with you. I hope that you

find some counseling to help you through. There are many women's groups that help with this stuff.

There's an organization here in CA called "Project Sister" and they might be able to help you find a good person to talk to.

I also hope you have gone to a hospital and had an exam to make sure you are okay. These women's groups will also send someone with you to go the hospital if you don't want to go alone (I know, I used for work for a Rape Crisis Center).

Please PM me if you want to talk.

ABOVE ALL IT WAS NOT YOUR FAULT. YOU DID NOT ASK TO HAVE SEX WITH HIM AND VERBALLY, REPEADEDLY SAD "NO." IT WAS NOT YOUR FAULT!!

Much love,

UCLA Dem

[OzarkDem]

62. If its any consolation

I still suspect there's a significant number of cons posing as Dems on DU. No doubt many of them take every opportunity to use a discussion of women's issues to disrupt the forum and create ill will.

I have a conservative acquaintance or two who have bragged of posting here.

[Senior citizen]

106. I think so too.

I suspect that the people who made our porn rule necessary, i.e., those who think that anyone concerned about porn is an uptight prude, are the SAME ones who say that any female who owns porn is bad and deserves to be raped. First they manipulate you into accepting porn, then they say you're therefore bad and deserve to be raped. They're manipulative, but they're rarely female.

The cons have had decades of practice infiltrating, silencing others, and pretending to be the majority. If you can't find many of the "moral majority," they'll claim they're the "silent majority." Often it turns out they're neither silent nor moral. If the majority disagrees with them in the media, they buy up the media and only permit their own viewpoint on air. If they can't get the votes, they'll buy and rig the voting machines. Freeping a poll refers to when a handful of freepers vote thousands of times to make it look like people agree with them. Disruptors on DU have had multiple user names so they can back themselves up when everyone else disagrees.

The conservative agenda is precisely the opposite of the progressive agenda, and you can tell where someone stands by their attitude towards the issue that effects more than half of all Americans: feminism. Since conservatives are against equal rights, and make no bones about it, progressives can't hem and haw and hedge their attitudes. That's not how progress is made.

[mogster]

63. Hugs to you

It was rape if you think it was rape, that's the bottom line. Always is.
But the circumstances described also points to the same thing.
Good to see you're getting some help in dealing with this.

[Misunderestimator]

75. Holy shit, Rad...so sorry.

And I can't believe the post saying that rape was "just" a form of assault... Unfortunately I know that that is the feeling of some men... it would change if they were raped, I'm sure.

:hug:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

93. same thing happened to one of my friends

who posts here. It took her many many years to get her feelings about it to a point where she was no longer controlled by the aftermath.

Good luck to you in overcoming the weight of that experience.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

102. I Am So Sorry

Words fail. That's all I can say. :-(

DTH

[atommom]

103. So sorry to hear that happened to you ... and that you then got

treated so badly here! :(

[EFerrari]

108. I hate this.

(((((((((((((((((RADFEMFL)))))))))))))))))

[geniph]

39. You're going to see that anywhere on the Internet

because, like it or not, most of the internets (sic) is still dominated by men, and most especially by young guys who are still wet behind the ears. The stereotype of the pasty geek in his mid-20s living in mom's basement and spending 90% of his waking hours on the 'net is not dead. Sure, there's a lot of us who don't fit that - and some of those pasty geeks HAVE actually spoken to actual, live women and formed reasonable opinions of them - but there's one whole hell of a lot of guys on the Internet who still see women as commodities, primarily because they don't actually know any.

What we can do to make a difference - well, if it's your son, educate the little sucker! Other than that, to me one of the biggest things we can do is not buy into the whole stereotype of women as certain things that the media pushes on us so hard. Don't be that bitchy wife who makes lists of chores for her husband on Saturday and then goes out and puts $300 on the credit cards for clothes. Do some of the chores yourself and spend your own money, not his. We can only change stereotypes by making sure we, ourselves, do not embody them - and sadly, I still know too many women who DO fit right into the nastiest of cultural pigeonholes. Materialistic women who judge men by their bank accounts, women who use bitching and nagging instead of reasoning to get their way, women who cry to win an argument, women who flutter about and exhibit learned helplessness. If you find yourself engaging in such behaviors under circumstances where people will use it to reinforce cultural stereotypes, STOP.

[efhmc]

41. When ever I get that argument about "female" behavior used to

manipulate men, "women who use bitching and nagging instead of reasoning to get their way, women who cry to win an argument, women who flutter about and exhibit learned helplessness", I like to remind people that these were indeed the "learned" methods used by the oppressed to gain things from the oppressors. Thousands of years of being controlled and ruled over by men tends to make developing some type of coping skill necessary to survive.

[Hello_Kitty]

46. Geniph

I'm not going to get into the belittling broadbrushes you made in that post - I'll leave it to others this time.

I do suppose there are women who fit that description. There are all kinds of people out there and just because someone is female doesn't necessarily mean she's a good, worthwhile person. That's the thing about us feminists. We believe that in a truly equal society, all people would be judged by their individual merits.


I'll just say that it's been my observation that some guys think it's awesome when women defer to them, downplay their intelligence, and act helpless and incompetent to make them feel "manly". Well dudes, the gals who do all that to get you to fall for them are usually the same ones who turn around and treat you like a wallet and an unpaid handyman as soon as they get you. The real man haters are so-called traditional women. So if you want to avoid them, keep raising your own gender consciousness, challenge the stereotypes, and pursue women who identify as feminists.

[efhmc]

48. I really like your advise but I srongly doubt that it will be heeded

because of male egos and the desire to be stroked.

[geniph]

58. I agree with you...

the guys who bitch the most about women being manipulative users are the very ones who enable that same behavior. But it still makes me grit my teeth when I see women displaying learned helplessness to attract males. The kind of males that behavior attracts aren't worth your time! I've found that exhibiting confidence and competence attracts a much better class of male, overall.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

113. 'The real man haters are the so-called traditional women"

That is so true.

If men could overhear what some of the traditional women or the real social butterflies on the college scene say about them when they're in an all-female environment, they wouldn't be so enamored of the "submissive and feminine woman" or the "really hot babe."

[UCLA Dem]

59. I've seen a lot of insults towards repukes that demeans women...

and that bothers me.

For example:

"They're crying like little girls."

[A-Schwarzenegger]

64. How about "bitch-slap"?

I will never understand how such a word, combining
misogyny and violence, is allowed on a progressive political
site. The reason it is allowed, if I recall, is that it is
used on television. Yeah. And the rationalizations from those
using it are laughable: Oh, it's not gender-specific. Oh,
it's just a word. Even: Oh, it means that it's a woman slapping
a man. Yeah.

[UCLA Dem]

66. Thats exactly what I'm talking about.

[efhmc]

83. I absolutely despise that term almost as much as I do bush. It seems

like something that would flow naturally from his filthy little mouth.

[chicaloca]

95. how ridiculous that that's the logic behind allowing "bitch-slap" here

So it's allowed on television. Bill O'Reilly is also allowed on television. Does that mean we should permit him to post here?

[geniph]

65. It makes me see red every time I hear a joke like

"don't trust anything that bleeds for a week and doesn't die." Even otherwise decent men can be heard making that kind of joke, or jokes about the smell of women's genitals, things like that. That kind of shit matters. Every woman who hears a joke about smelling like tuna becomes a little more self-conscious about her own vagina, a little less comfortable in her own skin. Every woman that hears something demeaning about a woman with large breasts, or one who's overweight, becomes a little more insecure. I frigging hate that kind of "humor" and verbally object to it whenever someone uses it in my presence. It's insidious and very destructive.

"Oh, but cantcha take a joke, honey?" No, "sweetie," not one whose sole purpose is to make someone else feel bad for who they are. Never.

[efhmc]

82. Those "jokes" are totally demeaning. Imagine being allowed to tell a

joke relating to the smell of a person that was different in other way besides her sex (and a truly normal smell at that). Yes I can see it now banned forever for telling a ethnically slurring joke.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

69. ....

:cry: :eyes: :boring: :banghead:

whatevah....

[beam me up scottie]

71. nevermind

nt

[beam me up scottie]

72. I believe the question was

about anti-feminism.
This is the Feminists Group.

[Bunny]

73. Yes, that is an important point that bears repeating:

THIS IS ABOUT ANTI-FEMINISM, not ganging up on people!

[Misunderestimator]

74. Did you mean to post this on this thread? In this forum?

Because, if so, why?

[noamnety]

70. The DU fashion police wear me down

As much as I can't stand Laura Bush for a thousand reasons, the threads that go on at length wondering why she can't dress herself properly for "her role" as first lady to me are the height of anti-feminism. There is always the underlying message that to be a worthwhile woman, you need to follow the rigid rules that advertisers and the fashion industry have created for you. It's one of the most shallow and destructive anti-feminist things on DU, in my mind.

Some of the stuff she's worn has been flattering, some hasn't been. None of it is really of concern to me, we have more pressing matters than being outraged that a particular dress reveals that a 50 year old woman doesn't have a flat tummy.

It goes hand in hand with the republican talking points that Teresa was a disgrace because she didn't flat-iron her hair. It's pathetic.

[efhmc]

80. I so agree with you on this. Women and fashion can they ever be

seperated? Plus Americans are just way to hung up on looks and image. You can see where that has gotten us.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

76. There Is a Lot of Anti-Feminism on DU, and Not All of It From Disruptors

As a feminist, it always disturbs me to read so many posts where women are:

1) denigrated in sexual terms (since when is it somehow OK to call RW women with whom we disagree a bunch of sexist slurs);

2) dismissed as hypersensitive (maybe the reason feminists are sensitive to an issue is because it's -- gasp -- a legitimate issue);

3) presented solely or primarily as sex objects (but hey, The Lounge is just completely harmless, innocent, "red-blooded American" fun, right? Right?);

4) split into wedges whenever there is a difference of opinion within the community itself (obviously, all women are a monolith and think the same way, and so if an anti-feminist can find even a couple of counter-examples in a thread, that obviously invalidates the entire point that feminists are trying to make...revert to 2 above);

5) expected to walk in solidarity with other aspects of agendas held by certain anti-feminists, but can never expect any solidarity or sensitivity in return.

I think some of the people who act like the above are probably disruptors, but I think most of the people are "good liberals" in many other ways. They're just liberals who are really, really, really ignorant on women's issues, or they're just too entrenched in their male privilege to want to give that up, even on an anonymous message board.

Anyway, I'm glad this group has been formed and I congratulate the people who organized it!

:toast:

DTH

[Misunderestimator]

77. DTH

:loveya:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

99. Aww

:loveya: back!

DTH

[lukasahero]

78. Great post

If you need evidence that they're not all disruptors, see this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3826523&mesg_id=3826523

The formation of this group has really brought out the best (and worst) in people.

[Finder]

79. Wow

I didn't catch that thread. People just don't understand definitions-or fall for the rightwing definition-frustrating.

We have a lot of work to do in society....

[DoveTurnedHawk]

100. There Are a Lot of Problem Threads Lately

So much defensiveness. So many men, even "progressive" men, are threatened by feminists and, more importantly, feminists who ORGANIZE and speak out. Another reason I'm glad this group was formed!

DTH

[beam me up scottie]

104. Just start a thread with the word "feminism"

in the op and watch the hyenas.
I noticed the same phenomena on the reichwing forums, strangely enough.
Maybe we should get David Attenborough to make a documentary, I love his narration skills.

[efhmc]

81. I was utterly AMAZED when I came to this "liberal" site and saw all the

anti-feminist remarks. The reason given is that many are "young" men and don't know better. What the flim-flam does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Why don't they get slapped down, get re-educated or get booted?

[VelmaD]

84. Simple answer...

because the admins are male. That's not a slam on them. I've had long discussions on this subject with Skinner and he "gets it" more now than he did when we started talking. But the rules are still set up so that if we "slap" them down...we get in trouble. And they don't get booted because they admins don't feel the insult to the degree we do.

[lukasahero]

85. I'm not sure it's that simple

Remember the admins also gave us this group. In my discussions with Skinner over this, he pushed us to be more clear, more specific in our mission statement - in a way to define the rules so he could follow them. I think he's trying but watch the people who do this - they know what they're doing and they follow the rules to the letter, never stepping over the line. We get pissed off in responding to their obvious incitement and we get deleted.

I was even going to start a topic about "stealth misogyny on DU" this morning but haven't had a chance (been too busy keeping up on things here! LOL) It's the ones who write one line in their subject and make no other comments. EVERYBODY knows their intent but they haven't said or done anything wrong. When we call them on their "intention", they deny it and accuse us of attacking them. It's f*cking priceless.

[Finder]

86. I think a few are too paranoid

but understandable since there are those that come to DU to disrupt. I think a thick skin is a prerequisite to posting on any messageboard.

[lukasahero]

87. A few of who are too paranoid?

The disruptors are usually misogynists so I can't imagine why the men being called out are paranoid about them. Do you think the women who call them out are just being too paranoid and need to grow thicker skins?

[Finder]

88. Some on both sides

The men who take any mention of feminism as a bash against males and feminists who feel any questioning of feminism is an attack.

Disruptors are pretty obvious but sometimes the person may say something that rubs the wrong way out of lack of knowledge or "approved" language. Education rather than accusation is the way to deal with them.

[noiretextatique]

97. i think some of that does happen

but i think also some have great antenna and can spot a disruptor...or worse. i recall having a BIZARRE discussion with an individual here who was attempting to explain why men didn't respond to rape the way women did...all his theory, mind you.
now...i could sense this guy was a nut, but i'm a woman...i know when a guy is being creepy in a sexual way, and not all men have that experience. i alerted on this guy because of that, but of course, others didn't interpret his words the way i did. even in cyberspace, sometimes you can get a sense of people, and the feeling i had about this guy: not someone you'd ever want to meet in person, and certainly never alone. some months later, he uncloaked and posted something so foul, vulgar, and digusting he was finally banned.
i've been on DU since @ the beginning when there were less people and it was a bit more intimate. the dynamic has changed a lot since those times, but if i have an instinct about someone, i make sure i let the moderators know all about it. i haven't been wrong...yet :D

[Senior citizen]

107. Like upper body strength is a prerequisite for practicing law?

Sensitivity is labelled a feminine trait, and males who are sensitive are labelled sissies. The ideal, from a conservative viewpoint, is for males to be cruel, unfeeling, have no empathy, and absolutely have no sensitivity.

So we should turn ourselves into pukes in order to post on DU or any other message board?

I think it is those who don't care about the feelings of others who are the problem, and I'm not going to grow a thicker skin just so that they can poke me and I won't feel it as much.

The techniques for subjugating and silencing females and feminist males had been refined over 5,000 years of patriarchy before the internet came along. The only difference is that technology has taken away some of the physical violence. No, I don't have to grow a thicker skin (be more masculine) to post here or anywhere. All I need are enlightened administrators and other feminists to recognize that when you hurt somebody and they say ouch, it is your fault for hurting them, not their fault for feeling the hurt and saying ouch. The solution isn't for those who are hurt to "take it like a man," but for discussion to be able to take place without verbal assaults.

DU rules do not allow personal attacks or attacks against specific groups (excluding freepers). But slurs against females have become so much a part of our language and culture that they are difficult to recognize for what they are: attacks against females. The military has taken a few steps towards achieving this, in that drill instructors are no longer supposed to call recruits girls or women as put-downs. But many still do and some of them are completely flabbergasted that they are supposed to make "men" out of recruits without being able to remind them of what they are if they're not men.

The techniques for silencing free speech have been called free speech by conservatives, and too many liberals believed it. If you look at prime time MSM TV, most of it these days seems to have the purpose of desensitising people to violence and cruelty. Progress, by definition, cannot mean a return to barbarism.

Those who call me too sensitive or too easily offended, and say I need to grow a thicker skin are simply saying that they themselves are insensitive, offensive, and thick-skinned, not to mention thick-brained, and want me to be more like them. This group is a major victory for progressives and for telecommunications. You can be an empathic human being and still post here without being attacked for being so vulnerable. Until this group formed, it was true that a thick skin was a prerequisite to posting on any messageboard (with some membership-only exceptions). Reptiles have thicker skins than humans, and they ruled the boards.

Hooray for our reptile-free zone! (And apologies to non-human reptiles, many of whom are more sensitive than the human kind.)

[FizzFuzz]

110. well put!

We need to "toughen up", in so far as it would enable us to respond to attacks effectively, rather than explode and then get deleted.

The hardest thing is to stay calm enough to dialogue. That is what's most effective; in somecases, understanding can progress. Other cases, you can't change 'em but you can make them prove their own dipshitosityness.

[FizzFuzz]

105. this brings me to the question that I go back to again and again

How come almost EVERYONE here can see it perfectly clearly if its a boorish show of racism? Or homophobia? Or disability-ism? Regardless of the race, sexual orientation, or physical health of the participants?

(rant about looksism here. Germaine to sexism, because I see looksism as a strong amplifying factor in sexism.---> ) Looksism rarely gets seen for what it is. So sad, to me, to see the "judge who's pretty" threads, and the response of folks who know they won't "measure up". I always notice the very strained replies of those few people who try to show compassion by assuring the "ugly ducklings" that they're beautiful on the inside. True, but the very nature of those threads depends on the disqualification of the unattractive in the first place.

Part of the problem is the turn-on factor. If it gives a guy a stiffy, or if it makes a woman feel powerful by garnering male attention, there henceforth and forever more shall be no criticism, because criticism could lead to restrictions on the free play of libido. If you know what I mean.

That's only one piece of the situation, though, I realize. Still, I don't think the titillation factor should be ignored when considering why sexism is particularly difficult to challenge.

[EFerrari]

109. I agree. n/t

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

94. Just one more reason to love and appreciate you, D

[DoveTurnedHawk]

101. Thanks T

We should definitely get together again, and soon! :-)

DTH

[Chovexani]

90. My personal pet peeve

My personal pet peeve is when people pile on Ann Coulter by attacking her appearance, especially that "Mann" nonsense (which, really? Such a lame insult...try something creative). When you compare this to all the ogling of women that goes on in the Lounge, it's a really fucking twisted atmosphere on DU where you have a committee of mostly men sitting around deciding which women are worthless or not based on what they look like. The cracks about her weight also really irk me because I'm naturally skinny (I'm tall and have high metabolism, it just runs in my family) and have had total strangers come up to me and tell me I'm anorexic, I need to eat something, etc. We don't know if she's skinny because she has an eating disorder, likes the nose candy, or was just born that way and you know what, it's none of our goddamn business. It's never cool to pick on someone because of their size.

I'm not saying don't hate Ann Coulter, I hate her too, but if you have to call her names, do it because of the bile that flies out of her mouth and not because of what she looks like. "Ignorant Nazi asshat" works just fine. :P

[geniph]

92. I can't abide that loathsome creature,

but I still grit my teeth when I see people attacking her for a) her appearance, b) her sexuality or lack of same, c) the presumption that she's transgender. What lame things to attack her for - it's like Oxycontin-boy attacking Michael Moore because he's fat. Who gives a flying shit if she's skinny and ugly? What I care about is that what she says is ugly beyond belief. Attack her words. Attack her ideas. Attacking her personally is the tactic of children. Ill-behaved children, at that.

(Made me remember another hot-button word I hate. "skank" That one always gets dredged up with sweet Annie.)

[Chovexani]

98. That gets on my nerves too

Because, really, "skank" is a club used against any woman who speaks her mind about something. That pisses me off almost as much as the shit Coulter talks.

[Senior citizen]

111. Last time I saw that club used was on DU.

It was used against feminist legal activist Catharine MacKinnon by someone who claimed to be female and leftist.

[efhmc]

112. To me those words go across the board and effect all women even

those we hate and whose views are very anti-fem. Although they would never defend us, I will still defend them and their right not to be attacked because of their race, creed or sex no matter how much I disagree with the person/persons involved.

[Cerridwen]

114. Yes, most definitely.

And I believe the anti-feminism goes fist-in-glove with misogyny; both of which come from fear of women - gynephobia. Much of the fear is wrapped up in and manifests as an almost pathological need to control women's sexuality, psyche, and bodies, i.e., rights of choice, rape as war weapon/strategy, ""alpha" male as norm" definitions of "appropriate" sex/sexual activity, ""alpha" male as norm" definitions of women's "acceptible" role in society, etc.

I've read many articles and treatises about why it may be that men fear women (generalized statements used to keep this post from becoming a treatise); everything from psychological indications due to mother being the first care giver/disciplinarian in a child's life (which doesn't explain why all girls don't also grow up to hate/fear women) to ancient archetypes of women/Goddesses with vagina dentata the "toothed vagina" which has permeated our "race memory" and caused boys/men to feel that all girls/women are out to devour them or rob them of their masculity through the use of our "toothed vagina." Much as Delilah "robbed" Sampson of his "strength" when she cut his "hair." (Oh the symbology.)

If you'll read the Malleus Malificarum "Hammer of the Witches," a Middle Ages Inquisitors' guide to identifying and torturing "witches," you'll see frequent references to witches stealing or shriveling men's "manhood." Many references to "witches" make the same claims. It was no coincidence that Pat Robertson's diatribe against feminists included, "The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians. (Fundraising letter, 1992)" (emphasis mine)

Until men deal with their fear (see previous note about generalizations), I don't know that we as feminists can do much about anti-feminism, mysogony and gynephobia; except, continue to do what we do.

Recognize and point out "the lies of the fathers' tongue," (Penelope, J. (1990). "Speaking freely:" Unlearning the lies of the fathers' tongue. New York: Pergamon Press) and reclaim our Power to Name and therefore define ourselves and our message, and so much more that this post is becoming a treatise.

Here, this says it better than I am able:

"How To Be A Fabulous Feminist"

Fight Sexism. Do it Now Say Yes to Female- to Justice- to Freedom. Love Yourself, Love other Women. Say No! Get angry, Get Active. Don't Agonize- Organize. Fight racism- classism- ageism- homophobiasizism and ableism. Lower pain and isolation. Raise Consciousness, Raise self esteem. Think Globally- Act locally. Avoid Burnout. Be Woman identified. Create Safety. Take Risks. Take Your Power Back. Do it Now! Live equality. Thank Yourself. Celebrate Women Survivors. Invent Herstory. Shatter Myths, pioneer, trailblaze. Discover She-Her-We-I-Woman. Honor lesbians. Say Yes to Power. Love Your Body. Decorate yourself anyway you like. Have Happy Sex. Visualize Perfect Birth Control. Keep Abortion Safe, legal and accessible. Help A Mother today. Make every child A Funded Child. Praise Rebel Spinsters. Do it Now. Be A woman's movement. Vote, March, Girlcott, Lobby, Write letters. Elect Progressive Women. Win the ERA. Stop the Violence Against Women. Demand Economic Justice For All. Say Yes to More Money. Fun-raise, raise Hell. Do it Now. Cherish Your Mother Earth. Be anti-war. Liberate Oppression. Think Humanarchy. Make peace with Men. Be a Mover and A Shaker. Support Bad Girls. Join A Feminist Political Organization. Volunteer, give love, give money. Get Powerful, Get Respect. Heal Yourself. Heal the World. Collect Fabulous Memories.

Do it To Win!!!

From the poster "How to be a Fabulous Feminist"

[efhmc]

115. Well, that really deserves a thread of its own. How about posting anew

for all to read because it might be buried down here. (Also edit note: repeated "'alpha' male as norm" twice in first paragraph). Great post. Verrry interesting. Thank you.