Anybody read/study Mary Daly?

[Finder]

what feminist theory do you most ascribe to, if any?

[lukasahero]

1. I subcribe to the "feminist theory" that women are people too

Sorry, haven't read much Daly. I do understand that she considers herself a "radical feminist" and is often accused of "hating men".

Interesting first post for a new "Feminist" group. Would you care to actually add your own thoughts on your subject?

[Finder]

4. She is accused of a lot of things...

as are most activists.

I am a feminist and see a lot of the work our foremothers did for us has been swept under a rug. Most younger women don't see we still have a ways to go. Feminists who speak out are labeled "feminazis" and fundy women are seen as the new women's movement.

The Women's movement has always been diverse though. I do get frustrated when I attend a women's meeting and the topic is soap operas and talk shows or on the other extreme only about abortion issues.

[lukasahero]

5. That's why I used the word "accused"

Thanks for responding. I really wasn't sure from your post whether or not you were suggesting we are in "male hating" mode here. Thank you for not being offended.

I must say "male-hating" is not my MO and I get a litte concerned when any blanket statements are used. Not having read much of Daly, I don't know how accurate those "accusations" are although I seriously doubt it. Seems any woman who speaks out against the patriarchy is labelled such but that also doesn't mean women like that don't exist. Hey, there are all kinds of people (even women!) in the world.

I absolulely agree with you on many points you've raised. (young women, "femi-nazis", fundy women :puke:, soap operas, and yes, abortion - yeah, I'm pro-choice but that's not the only issue that should be important to women.)

Perhaps you can give me (us) some info on Daly from your perspective? Part of why I was interested in this group was to learn.

[efhmc]

2. Never thought about a theory. I subscribe to raising 2 feminist

daughters and telling everyone that looks at me, petite and unyoung, here is how scary a feminist actually is.

[redqueen]

3. Theory?

Who needs a theory?

Women have been shit on since the dawn of man. I want it to end. That's pretty much it.

:hi:

[OxQQme]

7. Actually redqueen

there's more than you seem to know of herstory.
Prior to Mose's meeting on the mount with god/yahweh and the edicts that were passed down to the tribes belittling women, humans lived in matriarchal times for thousands of years. Inanna was the goddess.
There was even a pharoah or two who were women during the early egyptian era.
And if I'm not mistaken, the Age of Aquarius ushers her back into the spotlight, so to speak.

[redqueen]

8. Well...

We have women Prime Ministers now, but there's no pay equity, no equitable sharing of duties in the home, etc. etc. etc... People in Greece and Rome worshipped female gods, yet still women were not equal. Due to this, I have a hard time assuming that simply because there were female dieties that that means women were treated as equals in societies which predated Moses. Aren't there matriarchal societies that exist now which still do not treat women as equals?

[Finder]

9. Depends what you consider "equal"

Males and females throughout history and now, have different needs as well as common ones. Feminism is about equal "opportunity."

Should a single woman(or man)get equal pay to a married man raising a family? Most would say yes--that is equality. But is it?

A married man with a wife and 3 kids at home is going to spend a lot more time at work and focus and invest on advancing in his career than a 24 yo right out of college with no responsibility and an active social life regardless of gender. A married woman with small children usually puts her career second, has limited hours, etc. Sometimes common sense is seen as discrimination. That is not to say in some cases it is not blatant discrimination, but overall it is not.

That said, if family dynamics were flexible--husband sharing equal responsibility--then there would not be the issue for businesses to consider. Actually, the issue does not exist in the upper classes at all but in the upper middle working class down.

Women can have it all through careful planning but frankly--if one chooses to be a wife, mother or both, there are concessions. That is why choice is such an important right.

If you look at the statistics of the pay between women over 40 and males...the gap is non-existant for childless women.

[Ripley]

10. Bullfuckingshit.

That sounds eerily similar to some "Men's rights" rightwing crap. You seriously think a man "raising a family" deserves to be paid more than a single person?

That gap is absolutely not non-existant for childless women over 40. In fact I bet it is larger, since women don't get promoted up the ladder as fast as men.

[Finder]

12. From a business perspective

You want employees who are dedicated. A married man with a family is usually a better investment. Most young single individuals(male or female)are not as dedicated either because they are gaining experience in the field or just want to be employed.(I am talking about the "9-5 and not one moment more crowd"). I am generalizing so there are those who definitely do not fit this scenario.

Women with no children are the ones most discriminated against in some industries. It really depends on the industry. For the sake of this dicussion, I am talking about the corporate, middle management and higher jobs.

[Ripley]

13. That is a sexist statement.

You want employees who are dedicated. A married man with a family is usually a better investment.

Maybe you don't really belong in this Group?

[redqueen]

16. Okay I'll second the Bullshit! call now...

First of all... why should we give a SHIT what the excuse is?

Employers want slaves to work for free? FUCK THEM!

Don't limit it... there's only a few places where the wage gap really does disappear: union shops, the military, and porn.

[lukasahero]

23. "A married man with a family is usually a better investment"

Did you really just say that on a board called the "Feminists Group"? Perhaps you meant to say the "sexist corporate business world views a married man as a better investment"?

If "Women with no children are the ones most discriminated against in some industries.", how do you support your assertion in post 9 that "the pay between women over 40 and males...the gap is non-existant for childless women."?

[Ripley]

27. Your initial instincts were right.

It appears. I have alerted. Gawd, they couldn't even wait a day. :nuke:

[lukasahero]

31. Ditto with evidence. eom

[Ripley]

39. Again, bullshit.

Here is some news for you:

The General Accounting Office compiled data from the Current Population Survey regarding the ten industries that employ 71 percent of U.S. women workers and 73 percent of U.S. women managers. The pay gap between full-time working women and men managers widened between 1995 and 2000, in seven of the ten industries examined.

Guess that blows up your assertion that the pay gap is "non-existent" for that particular group huh?

[pmbryant]

52. This attitude explains why gender discrimination still exists

A married man with a family is usually a better investment. Most young single individuals(male or female)are not as dedicated either because they are gaining experience in the field or just want to be employed.

I hope you are merely echoing the rationalization of those who perpetuate gender discrimination. Unfortunately, attitudes such as this are far too prevalent, even today.

--Peter

[Finder]

53. I was parroting the "business perspective"

and I must point out it is not gender specific but the myth of singles being less stable.


This is applied as the bar for politicians as well.

For the record--I do not think it is right.

[redqueen]

11. Equal pay for equal work, period.

Letting the employer subjectively decide who they think needs to be paid more based on whatever extenuating circumstances they see fit to address is a ridiculous idea.

You have a source for the nonexsistent wage gap between 40 year old childless women and 40 year old childless men?

As for your claim that we have different needs... what exactly do you mean?

[Finder]

14. I agree with equal pay for equal work...

most definitely. That is one of the biggest fights in the feminist movement as well as other movements.

[redqueen]

15. But you just rationalized that there's a good reason for it.

:wtf:

Source?

"Different needs"?

[Finder]

17. Hmmm.

How can I source the different needs of a single person vs a person supporting a family--it is quite clear. I stated that family dynamics were the reason for this in most cases.

I think you are misunderstanding or I am not stating it correctly. I do agree it is a problem, but I am stating the perspective of a business owner.

[Ripley]

18. Make that "sexist" business owner.

And what other movements are you referring to?

[Finder]

20. Civil rights movements

The inequality in pay is not just a gender problem--many minorities were/are discriminated against.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

19. No, source for your claim that the wage gap disappeared

for childless women over 40, as compared to men over 40. (Notably, you didn't state that the males in that scneario also had to be childless, only the women... reinforcing the societal expectation that regardless of whether a woman works out of the home, it is SHE who is expected to do the lion's share of the childcare / housework, which - may I say - is utter bullshit.)

Family dynamics are the bullshit excuse... that's much different than a valid reason. You are most definitely stating it as if you are accepting this bullshit as a valid reason... if you think it's a problem call it what it is... don't post their bullshit excuses for their unfair treatment of women. We already know their bullshit excuses quite well.

[Finder]

22. Let's back up a bit...

Look at starting a small business. Males and females(regardless of whether they have children) both have the same opportunities--do you agree with this?

[redqueen]

24. I'd rather not, thanks.

I'd like for you to address the two questions I already asked above before we get sidetracked into any other discussions, thanks.

Source for disappearing wage gap?

How do men and women have different needs? I'm sure we do in some ways, however when the subject of this subthread is the wage gap... I'm expecting that you mean basic needs... so I'm really interested to know what you were referring to there.

[Finder]

34. Not ignoring your questions

Had to run an errand.

I do agree there is a wage gap. I was trying to state why there was a gap--outside of discrimination as a reason. I do believe we need to focus on the discrimation.

I do think the gap varies depending on the field with a narrowing only with those who have been in the same career and over 40. For example salaried positions where both candidates have equal experience and education regardless of gender.

I do not agree with the rightwing explanations like the dangerous job excuse.

I think to broadbrush all gaps as having to do with discrimation is disingenuous since many businesses are run by feminists and some gaps are due to circumstances and not discrimination.

[redqueen]

37. Well you answered a later post than mine...

so you skipped mine, then did your errand... so I'm sure you can understand it appeared that you had indeed ignored them.

I still don't see a source. I see you stating the same things again, though. Why? Why won't you tell me where you read it? Are you in fact just making it up? Or what?

You can't just sit there and type what you think and expect me to take it seriously. The gap varies but it exists in every profession save three circumstances: union shops, the military, and porn... maybe fashion. There is no evidence to support your contention that salaried positions somehow magically have pay equity.

Since you specifically state that you don't agree with the "dangerous job" excuse... does that, by contrast, mean that you DO agree with the "different circumstances" excuse.

Wait, I see that you do... you say later that some pay gaps have good reasons.

I disagree vehemently.

[Ripley]

25. You guys just can't stay away can you?

You just had to jump in here with your pretend feminist posts; but you hate women so much your true self came bubbling out within one day. 24 hours!

Bye.

[Finder]

28. I think we disagree but I am a feminist

and hope I do not get kicked. I think I may have misstated my position or I am not coming across correctly.

[Ripley]

29. Feminists don't use RW talking points about females and business.

You made an outright sexist statement. A few. Which one did you misstate? Or did you misunderestimate us dumb broads?

[redqueen]

30. Is there a reason you're ignoring my questions?

:shrug:

[Ripley]

32. Because he pulled that number out of his ass.

Where are those mods?

[redqueen]

33. .

:rofl:

'Swhat I thought...

:hi:

[Finder]

35. I am a woman

and seriously I didn't state any numbers, I was generalizing.

I do think there is discrimination against women, mothers in particular, in a lot of fields.

[redqueen]

38. You were not generalizing... you were stating something you made up

as a fact.

Bad form.

[lukasahero]

26. Per the group rules, no we do not

You ask: "Males and females(regardless of whether they have children) both have the same opportunities--do you agree with this?"

From the group mission statement:

"We believe that women do not start on the same rung as men on the ladder of success;"

[Finder]

36. What I asked was regarding "starting" a business.

"Look at starting a small business. Males and females(regardless of whether they have children) both have the same opportunities--do you agree with this?"

[Ripley]

40. You specifically state upstream that the gap is nonexistent in CORPORATE

management. So, why are you now switching to small business?

[Finder]

41. I was responding to the post right before it.

My other post "upstream" was regarding males and females over 40 with equal experience/education. I do agree we are not treated equally "on the ladder" and was offering areas we needed to work on. We have come a long way but do have a ways to go.

[Ripley]

42. Yep, we've come a long way baby.

:eyes:

Where are you offering areas "we" need to work on? In your statement that married men with families should be treated better, not equally with single women workers? How does one "work on" that? Get married and have kids?

[Finder]

43. You are representing my statements incorrectly...

Perhaps I should start a thread regarding the "wage gap" and we can start there. I do agree much work still needs to be done in this area. I also think there are explanations outside of discrimination to explain the gap in many instances.

There is still a difference in the amount of women vs men in management and/or high paying jobs. Since the law states males and females cannot be paid differently, a wage gap per actual position does not exist. It is women being able to secure these positions which needs to be focused on.

Let me start a thread so we can discuss with a focus rather than blanket statements.

[redqueen]

44. Please do.

I'd like to to clarify what these "explanations" of the wage gap are, outside of discrimination.

I'd also like you to cite this law which requires that males and females cannot be paid differently.

And also I'd like to know why you think a wage gap per actual position does not exist.

Unfuckingreal...

[Ripley]

45. Why start a new thread?

Trying to run away from your previous statements?

Are you going to tell me that the wage gap doesn't exist because the law states males and females can't be paid differently? It does exist. And I don't buy into that theory that it is because women don't act aggressively enough to get that promotion.

The new meme: the victims of wage discrimination are to blame for their plight. If only they would ask around about salaries and demand a raise at their next review.

[Finder]

46. well wage gap has nothing to do with Mary Daly...

and I didn't state any of the theories you are referring to.

[Ripley]

47. Your post #9 started this particular conversation.

Other than your OP, you have not put forward any information about Mary Daly. Do you ascribe to her particular view on Feminism? Who stopped you from discussing her?

[Finder]

48. Having a bad day?

You asked "Why start a new thread" and I responded.

Mary Daly has had a lot of influence on my thinking but I am a cafeteria feminist when it comes to theories. I chew it all but spit or swallow depending on the taste.

Nobody stopped me from discussing her, I just got distracted by a few accusations and sorority cliquish antics.

[lukasahero]

49. Why the personal jibe?

"Bad day"? "Sorority cliquish antics"?

Actually, I think you've been asked some legitimate questions concerning your statement that a married man with a family is a better business investment and I haven't really seen a legitimate answer to any of them myself. In fact, I'd say any answers you have given float periliously close to suggesting you think women do indeed have equal opportunity with nothing holding them back but their own choices meme.

I think a new thread about the wage gap would be a good idea but this thread was started by you on a different topic and your post titled "depends on what you consider equal" turned this whole thread on it's ear. You don't think that suggesting that married men are better investments and that the definition of equal is debatable are topics likely to raise hackles in this group?

These statements are worthy of explanation, not personal and glib retorts.

[Finder]

50. err...ok, here goes...

My statements are sometimes being taken out of context--I will deconstruct for you.

Here is my original post:


Males and females throughout history and now, have different needs as well as common ones. Feminism is about equal "opportunity."

This was in reference to the former post about whether matriarchal societies were equal.

Should a single woman(or man)get equal pay to a married man raising a family? Most would say yes--that is equality. But is it?

A married man with a wife and 3 kids at home is going to spend a lot more time at work and focus and invest on advancing in his career than a 24 yo right out of college with no responsibility and an active social life regardless of gender. A married woman with small children usually puts her career second, has limited hours, etc. Sometimes common sense is seen as discrimination. That is not to say in some cases it is not blatant discrimination, but overall it is not.

Notice I am not comparing married males to only single women but males as well. I am not saying they are better but trying to give a business owner's perspective. Employers tend to want stability and common sense directs the choice rather than discrimination in some cases. I also state sometimes it is blatant discrimination.

That said, if family dynamics were flexible--husband sharing equal responsibility--then there would not be the issue for businesses to consider. Actually, the issue does not exist in the upper classes at all but in the upper middle working class down.

Here I try to to identify why the above is an issue and a solution.(having husbands share responsibility)The upper class has nannies and nurses and drivers to do those things.

Women can have it all through careful planning but frankly--if one chooses to be a wife, mother or both, there are concessions. That is why choice is such an important right.

If you look at the statistics of the pay between women over 40 and males...the gap is non-existant for childless women.

Here I am trying to point out that women who don't marry or choose not to have children are beneficiaries of the equality while those who chose to have families have had to make concessions. I don't like that things are that way of course.

[donsu]

6. I've read and valued most of Daly's work and made and sent

her two of my political art pieces:

Snools in the Garden - a large painting with fingernail polish as the medium (a political act in itself)about corps. (suits) killing the earth with their toxins

and a medium sized sewing (embroidery) metaphorically depicting women squeezing the penis down to it's proper size.

Daly will open your mind.

[tishaLA]

51. I'm not big on Daly.

I don't think she's that important, really, because others have done similar stuff more effectively than her. That school of thought it cool and fun to learn, but I don't think Daly is the best example of it.