A little help here please

[Stuckinthebush]

I come over here and lurk a bit, and have posted some in the past. I consider myself a feminist and love feminist research. Ever since my first woman's study course during graduate school, I have become hyper aware of misogynistic language in our society. I like to point out when such language is used, and suggest ways to use language that doesn't attempt to maintain male control. As a male, this puts me in some interesting positions with other men, but the way I do it is kind and I like to think that a few guys have become a tad bit more aware from these interactions.

So, I'm reading a thread over in GD:Politics about Obama appearing on Leno. He referred to his wife as "my girl". I point out that this is misogynistic language. There is a guy over there that is amazed that anyone would be offended by calling a woman "my girl". In fact, he says that he's never heard of such a thing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the use of such language even in a close, committed relationship considered to be misogynistic?

Here's the thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3620904&mesg_id=3620904

Thanks.

[Gormy Cuss]

1. While I won't make a stance against Obama's use of the language on a personal level,

I do think the subthread was going off the rails. There is no acceptable reason for describing adult women in the workplace as 'girls,' just as there's no reason to describe adult men in the workplace as 'boys.' Anyone with a sense of the history of using these terms to describe racial minority group members ought to be able to see the parallel.

[Stuckinthebush]

2. Thank you

and thanks for posting in that thread.

I find it interesting that a calm discussion about misogynistic language will become a shout fest in short order. Is it that people do not wish to analyze their own words or is it that their is a subconscious desire to maintain the power structure? I'd hope that it was the former.

[Ellen Forradalom]

3. I don't think it's appropriate in public

In private, of course, you can call each other anything you like.

I think Obama was participating in a different line of political discourse, the nexus between love and power. There is a lot of anxiety about that now because of the changing definition of marriage, the heavy expectations we place on that institution, and the rise of women to power. But I don't think an affectionate diminutive should be used in reference to Mme Obama, a high-powered, highly intelligent, potential First Lady of the United States.

[Stuckinthebush]

5. Nicely stated

Indeed, Michelle Obama is a highly intelligent, high-powered spouse. References to her as "girl" in any public context is inappropriate.

[iverglas]

12. ditto

Good straight statement there.

[BlueIris]

4. I consider the use of the term "girl" to describe any woman over the age of 18

to be sexist and inappropriate. So, if you're looking for validation, there you go.

Sadly, I'm not surprised that you've encountered a poster here (as you would no doubtedly encounter him/her in a lot of places) claiming he had "never heard" anyone say that a grown man calling his adult female spouse his "girl" was offensive. There are all too many folks (most of this society, in fact) who are totally ignorant of the misogyny that pervades it.

[Stuckinthebush]

6. Thanks for the validation

I am always amazed at the level of animosity that comes out when one uses the word "misogyny". It seems to me that some people (men and women) see this as a personal attack. When critically analyzing our society from any perspective (gender, race or class), one usually does it from a global perspective. The criticism of using "my girl" is a societal criticism as opposed to criticizing Barak Obama specifically. I believe that if people are exposed to critical thought in a non-judgmental way then it is easier for them to start critically analyzing their own actions.

Sadly, I may be mistaken.

[noamnety]

7. Thanks for taking a stand.

No kidding on the animosity that appears if you use the word misogyny. I discovered on another forum that the mere use of the word results in people calling me a man-hating bigot. (Actually far worse than that, that's the milder reaction)

I know the men who speak out against that also get their share of nasty attacks, I am very grateful to men who are willing to take some of the heat off us from time to time.

[Stuckinthebush]

8. One thing that was burned into my mind

while sitting in the women's studies courses was that this is not a women's issue, it is a issue for all of us. By accepting misogyny even at a small level, then I am not fighting for my daughters and I am not exposing injustice. My comfortable position as a white male is easy to sit back and enjoy. That would be cowardice.

I felt very affirmed and valued in those courses then, and now by my feminist colleagues in academia. Many people think feminism is anti-man. It is no such thing. It is anti bigotry.

[BlueIris]

9. Thanks for politely ignoring my huge, horrifying typos.

I had some Benadryl earlier. It...does things to my proofreading abilities.

[Stuckinthebush]

10. I didn't even notice

Benadryl gives me weird dreams!

[bliss_eternal]

11. Little o/t but still related...

...over the weekend, I happened upon one of the shopping channels. A woman called in to share that she owned the item they were selling, and was buying more (testimonial line).

Anyway, I was about to turn the channel was struck when I heard the following from the woman:

"...yes, I'm buying another one today, to show appreciation for the girl that works with my husband. She's just a great girl, such a hard worker..."

Comments from the host followed. Then she says,"...she has two kids." Which let me know the speaker clearly wasn't referencing an actual "girl" (under age 18) but a woman.

While I was irritated by her use of language, I also realized (sadly) that this was an older woman (based on voice tone and expressions she used while speaking). For too many of her generation, woman=girl. She also had a slight southern accent, and that seems to be the norm for that region. :shrug:

[Branjor]

13. Yes...

What would that poster's reaction be if Hillary referred to Bill as "my boy"? Or indeed if any woman referred to her husband as "my boy"?

[iverglas]

14. at the risk of repeating myself

(we did talk about this a while back here) -- the big problem is that there is no generic casual term for female persons like the one we have for male persons: guy.

A woman in Obama's position could have said "my guy" and no issue would have arisen. She wouldn't have had to say "my boy", or even considered saying it, because there's a term readily available.

"Guy" is North American. England, say, has "chap" (falling into disuse, but earlier, the counterpart of "guy"). There's also "fellow".

For women, there's nothing. Woman, girl, lady. Man, boy, gentleman, guy, chap, fellow.

One is almost tempted to resurrect "gal", just to have something to express an idea/feeling the way one can in relation to a man/men.

Oh, forgive me, I'm completely forgetting. Chick, broad, babe. Doll.

We just don't get to be generic. The words have to refer to (and judge) our sexuality, not just identify us by our sex.

It's not just English. In French, you have les gars et les filles. A garçon is a boy; a gars is, well, a guy. A fille is a girl is a girl.

Which problem shall we solve first: the lack of a generic casual word for female persons, or the lack of a generic pronoun?

Gimme Farsi. No gender at all, for anything; hardly ever bother with pronouns in casual speech. Smart, those Persians/Iranians.

[Gormy Cuss]

15. I'm all for resurrecting 'gal' if we need a gender-specific term.

"Guy" for everyone would be even better IMHO.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

16. It didn't really bother me when I heard him say it, but you make a good point

In thinking of what he could have said instead: "my wife" or "my lady" or "my woman" it's interesting to consider how those terms are viewed. Wife would be fine, but maybe wouldn't convey the emotional message he wanted. Lady is laden with all kinds of sexist baggage. Calling her his woman would be problematic as well, because unfortunately, "woman" is used so often in a pejorative context. :(

Anyway, good on ya for fighting against sexist verbiage! :hi:

[Stuckinthebush]

17. My partner?

Yeah, I know what you mean. What does he use instead. My wife would have been the most appropriate I guess.

Thanks for the post!