Ok, I know I'm posting a lot tonight...

[VelmaD]

but I just needed to get this out of my system in a safe environment. I know the mods have been getting better about deleting sexist language. But sometimes it stills feels like I'm banging my head against a brick wall. Tonight in the Lounge is a prime example. I'm sick and tired of my DU experience too often feeling like I'm just the bitch-police. I shouldn't have to alert on that word nearly every day because PEOPLE SHOULDN'T FUCKING POST IT in the first place.

I shouldn't have had to pm Skinner earlier about the rising use of the term douche-bag since they figured out bitch will get deleted.

I shouldn't have to have the same goddamn fight with the same people over and over and over again because they just don't get that part of being a liberal is NOT offending people after they tell you you're being offensive.

I'm tired and I needed to spew. Thanks for listening.

[cally]

1. I usually see these threads after they're locked

or posts are deleted. I read the locked thread and I appreciate your comments and your efforts to educate folks. I know you take much of the heat and it's not fair.

I agree that it's amazing that 'progressives' are just fine with insulting others AFTER they are told it's offensive. :argh:

:hug:

[Lars39]

2. Or "he didn't mean to be offensive".

I should have known the context, ie it was song lyrics. :eyesroll:

[FizzFuzz]

4. and they only do this to WOMEN nt

[VelmaD]

5. Oh, sometimes they do it with gays too...

I've seen some ugly homophoia on DU. What's really great is when they hit both at once. (i.e. the little girly-man flap I had earlier)

[BlueIris]

19. The homophobic references are what get to me.

I know, I know, all forms of prejudice should irk me, and they do, but you think I'd be instantly more sensitive to the gender-based slurs than the slurs based on sexuality...but I'm not. Seeing otherwise sane-sounding posters use terms like "fag" with impunity? Ugh. I just think, liberals should know better. Liberals should know better than to use sexist language, too, of course, but: Ugh.

[FizzFuzz]

3. I hear you.

What drives me nuts is the arrogant, supercilious attempts to demonstrate how right they are by resorting to the same tired shit: you narrow minded, humorless, lacking logic, censor-crazed....probably ugly hag is in there somewhere,....

the endless refusal to stop and say, gee, maybe you have a point. The endless refusal to see the parallels to racist language/attitudes.

The endless immature refusal to see their own behavior.

I make it a point to look at myself and consider if I was in the wrong when someone calls me on something....it pisses the shit out of me to see people who refuse to rise to that personal challenge call me and my sisters a gang of idiots.

[cally]

6. Well said!!

I just don't understand it. It's so different than I react when I find out something I said or wrote is offensive. I don't understand their obstinancy.

[smirkymonkey]

35. I know this is immature, but I say fight fire with fire:

What if we started posts in the lounge that were purposely "anti-male" just to see what their reaction would be. Then, when they accused us of being male-bashers and sexist, we could say, "Oh, calm down, it was just a joke" or "Why do men always get so easily offended over NOTHING!" etc.

I know it would probably start a flame war and get banned, but I figure if sexist posts and responses are allowed toward women, then we could finally get some of these knuckle-draggers to see first hand what their chauvanism looks like.

They will never listen to a rational argument, but maybe turning the tables just as an experiment would wake some of them up.

[Hello_Kitty]

36. I'm a big proponent of turning the tables

When you suggest it, you'll often get the "but 2 wrongs don't make a right" argument. Generally speaking, that's true but for some reason, intractable double standards just aren't budged by anything else. We can complain about something until we're blue in the face but until the offenders feel it themselves, they're going to dismiss it.

Today's thread in this group about harsh beauty standards has me thinking we should go into the Lounge and start threads about "hot" guys. Celebrities and political figures we think are handsome, and specific physical characteristics make men attractive or not. Additionally, I think all the famous men mentioned should be under 40 and conventionally good looking.

Actually, we needn't go in the Lounge. We could do it here. We get plenty of male lurkers (hi guys! :hi: ) but it wouldn't be shut down right away. Or Women's World might be a good place to do it too.

Another effective thing to do would be to copy a sexist post from the Lounge or GD, change the genders around, and re-post it as something new from a female. See if any of them catch on.

[smirkymonkey]

37. This would work if we had an alert list for everyone in the

Feminists forum letting them know when there is a thread that could use support - a lot of time I find that only one or two of us are taking on an entire herd of puerile misogynists and it just gets tiring.

Feminists, Unite!

[spooky3]

7. I alerted on someone's calling Judith Miller a "bitch" but no action

was taken. To make it easy, I even spelled out that I thought that violated the language policy. So I guess I just don't understand the policy.

[FizzFuzz]

13. ok, there's something wrong there. Keep that thread saved for a bit.

incase it would be useful to make a point

[spooky3]

15. I see that post's now been deleted. Someone else must have

alerted on it, because it had been hours since I had.

[FizzFuzz]

17. oh good, phew! n/t

[Heddi]

8. I applaud your effort

because you're doing more than I do, I have to say, and I try to alert whenever I see sexist, racist, etc language being used.

and like others pointed out--funny how WE don't get it. WE need to get a thicker skin. WE don't understand the context. WE don't have a right not to be offended. WE need to lighten up.

Why is it that if some freep came on the board writing inflammatory posts about niggers, jews, wops, towelheads, slant-eyed rice eatin chink motherfuckers, they would be SO banned in a heartbeat.

There would be no cries from the Boyz Club that the BLACKS need to lighten up, that the CHINESE don't understand the context. That ARABS don't have a right not to be offended. That the JEWS need to get a thicker skin.

Oh no. That's verbotten. Please..respect all people...as long as they're not women, or ugly, or fat.

---
On a strange tangent, I just found an albino praying mantis in my house and put her outside in my garden to eat all the baddies. I took my digital camera with me to take pictures. As I was taking pictures, I thought about how the female praying mantis eats the head of her mate after they've copulated because he's of no further use to her, and she needs the nutrients his body brings more than she needs his ass hanging around all the fucking time, leaving shit-stained undies in the hamper and crowing all night about how them wimmen at work are out to take his job.

Wait...I was talking about an insect, right?

[knowbody0]

9. I'm with you

we all came out of the glorious cave to do something purposeful. eating shit appears not to appeal to me.

[Heddi]

10. Here's a picture of my mantis friend

ain't she pretty?

[lukasahero]

11. She is pretty

Of course, not to rain on your parade (I did chuckle at your rant - have made the same one on occasion :)), but because she is albino, you do realize that she is likely to become prey herself more quickly because she stands out, right? Wait, that sounds familiar too. ;)

Sorry, this should all be read with a touch of sarcasm, humor and irony - seems I missed all the fun last night and am just catching up on everything.

Heddi, I admire your strength, your straightforwardness and your willingness to share yourself and your stories with us and others. Just wanted to say that. :hi:

Edited because I simply refuse to learn how to spell "occasion" for some reason...

[FizzFuzz]

12. HAHAHAaa!!! Oh man that's good!!!!

the praying manits...hahahahahah :rofl:

----anyway, yeah exactly, oh my goodness, respect all people, except those b's who want to take away my right to call them b's for being b's who b-ily think I shouldn't call a b a b. They don't understand the context, the dumb stupid oversensitive b's.

[chicaloca]

23. and the assholes who tell us to get a thicker skin....

usually turn out to be straight white men if you look at their posting histories. So I wonder how the fuck they know what it's like to be the target of gender, racial or homophobic slurs. But of course, it's beyond them that they could ever not be the final authority on something. They're WHITE MEN. They KNOW. :eyes:

[Misunderestimator]

26. LOL

:spray: :rofl: :thumbsup:

[Bunny]

14. Thank you Velma and everyone else for fighting the good fight.

I just read through the threads from last night. You all are pretty articulate and polite - much better than I would be. I appreciate that you jump in and take a stand on this - so many times I see these kinds of things and I don't really respond. I guess I'm just weary of knocking my head against the wall. Better start pulling my weight!

[FizzFuzz]

16. hey right now I feel fed up

I've seen you jump in before, so don't knock yourself down here.

Right now I'm avoiding going back to one--I thought I got to a "teaching moment" when the person admitted he knew what the joke of the thread was from the start (he had been arguing in a real smarter than thou way that none of us women understood the context, that context means everything, we want to censor free speech....etc.).....
.....soooo, I caught him on the context of the thread we were in, he admitted that and then offered to "agree to disagree" and tried to end on a light note.

So, I took that as a sort of backing down but refusing to admit any wrong, and I had my say about that. And tried to bring forth some empathy for how women experience violence and assault tied up with words like b...

Well, shit, this AM, I see "WTF?"
Ya know, I don't feel like even reading the reply. I was absolutely clear, I vanquished the guy with logic, took apart every false inference and unsportsmanlike tactic (like using laughter at a point that I thought showed up his mistake pretty clearly).....And I see just by his subject line that its head-meet-cement once again.:banghead:

So, forgive me for putting down the whole story here, but its so typical of men (yeah I'm stereotyping. Quit earning the fucking stereotype, dudes.)---so typical that the ultimate fate worse than death is to admit a wrong, to be bested by a woman. Jesus H Christ on a ham sandwich.

I'm not feeling so polite now, I'd just like to do this :

[Bunny]

18. I read that. You totally kicked his ass!

Not that he'll ever admit it, or anything. :banghead:

[FizzFuzz]

27. Thank you Bunny!

Praise very much appreciated!

Hey what can I say, a high five feels good--see women have team spirit too. ;)

I haven't been able to bring myself to checking out his last, "WTF"---just haven't felt like putting up with whatever put down he has there for me.

[FizzFuzz]

29. OK I gotta brag!! Hope you don't mind?

?? :blush:

But oh man check this, to a new reply I got.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=3553567&mesg_id=3563531

I know I'm doing the "dig me!", but its too good! LOLOL I rule! Heeeeeeee!

And I support anyone here who has any "dig me!"s!! Please let me know anytime you want attagirls too!

[Bunny]

30. Fantastic!

You have a way with words, all right! These clowns can't come up with any meaningful response, can they? :thumbsup:

[FizzFuzz]

33. Thank you , big time, for humoring me, Bunny!

really, I feel really funny coming right out and saying "Lookit me!! Lookit!", but hey....isn't that what we're here for ?? To pat each other on the back? We should make this a habit for everyone.

:D!!

:woohoo:

[Hello_Kitty]

32. Did you catch his reply?

Deny deny, distract distract, whine whine, and then:

since you've opted to make personal observations, let me say it must be a real luxury to afford a post-graduate education in the wealthiest nation in the world, to better express how oppressed you are.

First of all, had you mentioned what your education was in any of your posts? Or is he simply assuming that anyone with a decent command of language and the ability to wage a critical argument must have a graduate degree? Illogical assumption there. Is he suggesting that a group cannot claim to be oppressed if some of it's members have access to higher education? This comment proves that the education of females is always the worst thing that can happen to sexist, patriarchal males.

Of course, I have a strong feeling that if a woman appeared to be less well-educated he'd use that to dismiss her argument as well. Can't win with these guys, can ya?

[FizzFuzz]

34. Oh hell yes, his reply was.....pretty darn bad. To put it gently.

I sure did notice ALL that...but I didn't even think of the "You can't claim to be oppressed" angle, but yes I see that now.

You are soooo right, this is the theiry in action right here, and the whole dynamic is right out there to see. Dang. The fear of being shown up, the projection, the pathetic act. He even did the "well my team backs me up, so I don't care if they're wrong, cuz they don't argue with me." *stick out lower lip* He really went throught the list. Tough guy....Intellectual Wiz;....Poor Disempowered Third World Canadian (huh? That one made me do a double take for a second.)

whew. I was mulling on whether or not to respond...it would have been too easy to follow the masculine aggression/warlike/ninja model, and jump in for one last Viking-like swipe of my sharpened Broadsword (Broad. Sword. Get it?)...

But that would be too cruel and unworthy of honor. ;)

But even more so, doint the Alpha Male Stomp, when you think about it doesn't really feel that good to do that to someone.

So I figured the kindest thing would be to just let him quietly slink away.

Actually, all joking aside, I feel like I wish I could teach the guy something, since I could also relate to alot of the fear he's stuck in. Been there....its weird how sometimes you can just see fear behind all the pathos and posturing. But I also know I'd be the last person he'd want to talk to, if he was ever willing to put down the defenses

(uh oh. Warning. Armchair psychologist at work... )

[Kipepeo]

38. Using class privilege to squash discussion of other privilege is

a common tactic: You went to school therefore I cannot comprehend how you are shat upon for your gender or race, or conversely, I am not a *rich* man therefore I cannot comprehend how I have any kind of white or male privilege. It's everywhere - the refusal to look at each kind of prejudice/privilege on it's own or in combination with others.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VelmaD]

21. It felt so good to know...

while I was beating my head against a wall in the Lounge, that I had this forum available as a safe space to post this. :)

[chicaloca]

22. Funny how....

once the word "bitch" is banned, people here, rather than simply looking for another name to call people, look specifically for another gender-based one like douchebag. That proves that people do consider the word "bitch" an insult because it's associated with women. And it proves that a lot of posters here do hate women and want to hurt them because they can't be happy with any insult that doesn't also degrade women. :fume:

[VelmaD]

24. I have brought this up to Skinner in a pm...

specifically the rise in use of "douchebag" recently. I'm still waiting for a response on how the mods will deal with it if we start alerting on that word.

[FizzFuzz]

28. good point there

people look for what will expiate their inner rage and contempt the best; femininity does seem to be the punching bag of choice.

for me, stupidity is waht really makes me spit: "fucking idiots" is an epithet of choice for me. And I know what hatred and disgust I feel when I say it. POS is another reallll hate expressor for me.

So, yeah, very good point you raise.

[all.of.me]

25. we need a short course on du (and other places)...

... in equality for progressives. lol

and you won't be able to call yourself a progressive, a liberal or a democrat unless you pass with straight a's and refrain from inappropriate language for a year. THEN you can be a progressive. ;)

[OKNancy]

31. Hi Velma

I don't know if it's good if I write anything or not. It makes me feel a little hinky when you discuss the mods and how DU is being run.
I will say this...we are trying.