Women I know tend to dismiss my husband's future career as a Nurse

[Heddi]

Hi!

As many of you may know (or even more of you not know, and even more still not care one whit :) ), I'm currently in nursing school (yay!)

I'm 1/2 way done and will graduate in June 2006...and you're all invited :) (yay yay!)

At any rate--here's the situation.

My husband wants to go to nursing school BAD. He's qualified for many schools, both associates and bachelor's degree programs. He hopes to start in Fall 06, right after I graduate.

However, here's the thing:

Alot of women I know--friends, family, co-workers, fellow students...openly mock both the few males in my nursing classes, my husband, and other men who choose to get into nursing.

It has been outright stated (not implied, or inferred) that any man who wants to be a nurse must 'butter his bread on the other side' (as it was so eloquently put once). Uh, hello...he's MARRIED TO A WOMAN (and I am no beard!)

He's been asked why he wants to settle to do "women's work?"

How he thinks he could handle himself working with nothing but women all day long

How could he POSSIBLY be able to bathe, dress, and give personal care to a woman in the hospital--CERTAINLY, being male, his first and only thought is FUCK SEX VAGINA...ya know...especially when he sees the vagina of an 80 year old woman with an indwelling cathater and colostomy bag that has needed emptying since beginning of last shift :eyes:

Once, in clinicals, I mentioned to my RN-partner for the day that she should get used to my last name, because hopefully she'd be working with my husband soon. She said "You HONESTLY can say you don't have a problem with him being a nurse? Don't you think that's a little..you know..gay?"

mouth
drops
open

I'm most astounded when I hear NURSES--actual working, registered and licensed NURSES commenting about how STRANGE it is for a man to be a nurse, how it's ODD for a man to be a nurse, how it's GAY for a man to be a nurse...etc etc.

There is a NURSING SHORTAGE, FOLKS!!! Be happy that SOMEONE is willing to come into the workforce so that YOU can retire. Be happy that SOMEONE is willing to sacrifice 3 years of their lives so that our population can be better cared for both preventatively and acutely.

sheesh.

The feminist in me just wants to reach out and throttle some sense into these ladies---I mean, do they not REMEMBER (or care?) the time when nursing and teaching and all of those other low-pay jobs were ONLY for women?

My great-grandmother, who was an LPN, and who graduated from "NURSING SCHOOL" back in the 30's had to temporarily retire during the times that she was pregnant. Didn't matter if she 'showed' or not...as soon as she knew, she had to leave---it would give patients the 'wrong idea' about nurses. I remember her big goofy hat that had to be held in place by 47,000 bobby pins only to be knocked sideways when she walked out the door, knocked again when she got in the car....

I remember her getting up in her nursing garb---white stockings, ugly shoes, starched white skirt & shirt.

I suppose that the feminist in me doesn't see jobs as gender-specific. One of the reasons I quit working as a chef was because of the blatant message I was being sent by instructors, fellow students, and co-workers CONSTANTLY---women are to cook at home, not in a commercial kitchen (Unless you're a baker or dessert chef, then that's okay).

I look at it like who CARES if a male or female is your nurse? I'm not very discreet so I really couldn't give two shakes who sees my yoo-hoo, etc. I know alot of people do, but alot of those people just may be MALES who would prefer to talk about certain things with another MALE. But seeing as the hospital I worked in was literally 90% female nurses, the chance for a male patient to interact with a male nurse is really slim. Patients have a right to feel comfortable in their surroundings. They're already uptight as it is, being in the hospital, sick, surgery, terminal, whatever.

We recently got information for another nursing program out of state, and in ALL of the literature, the nursing students were referred to as 'she', or 'her'. I had to go back to the school's website to ensure that I didn't get info from a private women's-only college. Nope. It was a public community college---yet all nurses are 'she'. I'm sure for many Med Schools, all Dr's are referred to as 'he' as well, although I have no evidence to back this up.

SOrry for the rant....it just gets frustrating when I am constantly asked in off-hand ways whether my husband is gay, or can perform sexually, or whatever, because he chooses to be a nurse. It really gets him down and he's the one that has to carry this 'stigma' more than I do.

Also---and I should point this out---that my husband isn't a MANLY MAN. He's tall, thin, very young looking (he's 32 and gets carded to buy cigarettes all the time!), very soft-spoken, and I've been told (altho I don't see it myself) that he's slightly effeminate. He's not a muscle head, doesn't try to out-do another guy in the macho-department, hates sports, loves art, cooking, and is the most domestic one out of the two of us (he vaccuums--I lift my feet...hey...at least I'm doing SOMETHING!)

sorry for the rant (again). Ugh. Narrowmindedness really is annoying and tiring to have to fight every day, day in and day out. Sigh.

[Hello_Kitty]

1. You would think

That straight, single guys would WANT to be in careers with a proponderence of females. Hellooo, talk about increasing your opportunities! Nope, they'd rather work with a bunch of other sweaty, dirty guys. That seems more "gay" to me, if anything. But whatever. :shrug:

Your husband sounds great. I go for more androgynous men myself. I see nothing wrong with discussing the merits of various moisturizers with my man. Doesn't detract from his masculinity at all in my book. Also, nearly every guy I've ever been with has been a far better cook, housekeeper, and decorator than I'll ever be.

[Finder]

2. At the local VA hospitals...

there are more male nurses than female nurses. Good luck to you both.

[Heddi]

3. There are alot of male nurses at the hospital I do clinicals at

They don't seem to do the floor work, though. The majority of the male nurses I've seen work in the ER, OR, same-day surgery, IV therapy, etc---they're not up on the floor doing (imo) the grunt work of the med-surg floor---handling 10 patients at a time, giving meds, and all that other crap.

I also have found that nurses that work the floor really don't like nurses that work in other non-floor areas of the hospital. Floor nurses HATE OR nurses. I don't know why---maybe because the OR nurses have a bit of variety in their jobs (and they don't have to assist with toileting or give 2 bed baths a day) and the floor nurses don't. I don't know---I'm just an unsalted green nursing student who don't know nothin' from nuthin' :)

It's just hard, though, to see the way that (in this case) the women I've worked with in the hospital can be so negative towards a man who steps outside of the pre-established gender roles. I wonder if they feel the same way about female doctors?

Of course, I could have my husband go work on one of those Alaskan Crab Boats---sure, it's dangerous as hell, but you work 3 months and make more than most normal people do in 12 (A friend of mine's dad & bro. owned a crab boat and they each would make about $80k in 3 months. Of course, you can, you know, die several times throughout the day, but some people think it's worth the payoff :shrug: )

[spooky3]

8. I'm glad you're both strong enough to withstand these inane

comments. Part of the problem of course is in society's undervaluing of "women's work." It would be interesting to see whether these attitudes are as common in Canada, which began requiring comparable worth pay in the 80's.

[Heddi]

10. whaaa?

Canada has laws requiring comparable pay? FROM BACK IN THE 80's?

YOU
HAVE
GOT
TO
BE
KIDDING
ME

aye. one more reason I absolutely loathe this country.

[spooky3]

12. yes, ma'am! At least Ontario does...

edited to provide a link

http://216.109.117.135/search/cache?p=comparable+worth+Canada&sm=Yahoo%21+Search&toggle=1&ei=UTF-8&u=economics.ca/cgi/jab%3Fjournal%3Dcpp%26view%3Dv27n3/CPPv27n3p357.pdf&w=comparable+worth+canada&d=7067A09968&icp=1&.intl=us

[Finder]

13. We have a similar law here in the US

although we still have a gap. Our corporations are more creative with their discrimination.

[spooky3]

17. Do you have a link? There is no such federal law in the US.

There may be some laws in states and localities with limited coverage, e.g., for governments but not private sectors.

[Finder]

18. Here ya go...Equal Pay Act of 1963

here is an excerpt:

An Act

To prohibit discrimination on account of sex in the payment of wages by employers engaged in commerce or in the production of goods for commerce.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That this Act may be cited as the "Equal Pay Act of 1963."


http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/epa.html

[spooky3]

21. Finder, the Equal Pay Act is not a comparable worth act.

The EPA requires a man and a woman in the same or substantially similar jobs as a first step in determining whether discrimination in pay exists. It does not govern comparisons on pay where a woman is a nurse and a man is a tree trimmer, which is the classic comparable worth example. Comparable worth is intended to address those situations where a job, because it is held predominantly by women (such as nurses) is undervalued and paid less than jobs held predominantly by men but requiring no higher (and often lower) levels of skill, effort, responsibility, or other job evaluation factors.

Hope this helps!

[lukasahero]

23. Bless you

That's an important distinction of which we should all be made aware. Thank you.

[spooky3]

24. You're welcome! SC Justice Kennedy was, sadly, the primary reason

why the comparable worth movement died out in the US. He was an appeals court justice at the time and decided against the union representing people in female dominated jobs who were paid 20% less than what a systematic job evaluation said they were worth relative to "men's jobs".

[Finder]

26. I would think in this day and age...

with males and females doing the same job we wouldn't have that problem. Male and female nurses make the same wage, don't they? There are female tree trimmers as well--are they paid less? Maybe I am misunderstanding. Are there any studies that track the trend?

[spooky3]

27. Yes, there are many studies about pay discrimination and about

gender concentration in different jobs and industries. There are many studies in journals in the fields of labor economics, industrial relations and human resources.

And no, in many cases in which men and women hold the exact same job, the gender gap has not disappeared.

[Wetzelbill]

31. you are right....women get paid considerably less on the dollar than men

This inequity increases if the woman is a minority.

[lukasahero]

28. Rules please

"- If, for example, you believe that women have already achieved "full participation in the mainstream of American society..., exercising all privileges and responsibilities thereof in truly equal partnership with men... in all aspects of citizenship, public service, employment, education, and family life,"* then this is not the group for you. "

Do you really believe women are paid the same as men for doing the same job (never mind the "comparable worth" argument)?

[Finder]

29. I was asking a question...

and if male and female nurses are not paid the same wage then a law has been broken. Same for tree-trimmers.

If we can't discuss wage gaps, how the hell do you suppose it can be eliminated?

[Wetzelbill]

32. likely men and women don't know there is a pay gap because

many times two people who hold the same job and even work together never think to ask what the other is making. So, many times a woman will be getting say 80 cents on the dollar compared to a man who does the same job, yet she'll never know because they don't ever mention it to each other.

[lukasahero]

34. Additionally, there are always ways for a company

to "spin" the reasons for the discrepancy in pay - experience, qualifications, whatever.

I think part of the problem is that some people want to define discrimination as the actual act of an employer sitting across the desk from a female applicant and thinking "I can pay this person less because she is female" but discrimination is much more pervasive and insidious than that.

Discrimination is in how employers think about applicants ("A married man with a family is usually a better investment."), it is in how men and women approach the job market (men are taught that everything is negotiable, women are taught to acquiesce), and it is in how the opportunities available are valued in society.

Consider average salaries of "typically" male/female careers:
carpenter I $35527/year, administrative assistant I = $30082
automotive mechanic II $39076, LPN $36760.

source: salary.com

[Wetzelbill]

35. thanks for the info

Discrimination nowadays can be very subtle. That's what makes it so dangerous.

When you mentioned the "acquiesce" part, I was reminded of a story that car dealers will not negotiate with a woman. I heard a woman say she brought a male friend with her as she was going to buy a car and the salesman kept talking to man about the vehicle. She had to keep telling him that her friend had nothing to do with it. He wasn't making a decision, he wasn't there to give input, and he definitely wasn't paying. Yet, the salesman persisted,she said he just expected her to run off to the side while the men took care of the price. It was odd. She left, thank God.

[lukasahero]

36. Knew I should have used spell check before posting. ;-)

I think you will find the scenario you mention quite common - and yes, even today. In fact, I'm sure most here can tell the same story. Same thing tends to happen with mechanics as well. Rgggg.

[Wetzelbill]

37. yeah those mispellings and typos are tough to live down

:)

You know, this group has the most intelligent and informative threads. It's really nice. I sort of forget what it was to actually have a good discussion, GD gets crazy, and when I post in the Lounge it's always something goofy.

[Finder]

38. Depends the region apparently

I tried to verify your salary.com stats and couldn't. I was using Boston though. Actually the numbers for the "male jobs" was higher.

Your quote regarding better investments is a key factor that we need to change. Is it discrimination by employer or the way things are?

Where does the change take place? Should the employer forfeit time, productivity, money to facilitate change?

As far as women not negotiating, that is total bullshit.lol

[lukasahero]

40. I used the national average, please try again

"My" quote about better investments came from you here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=341&topic_id=11#373

"Is it discrimination by employer or the way things are?" You really do think married men are a better investment for your business. Nope, no reason to get up in arms about anything like discrimination, it's "just the way things are, married men are a better investment". Whatever.

And I'll have to find it for you tomorrow (it's late) but as for "bullshit", two years ago NPR did a story on women, their lack of salary negotiation skills and how it costs them in wages. Laugh all you want, I don't find it funny.

[Finder]

44. I don't think it is funny at all...

I think you are misunderstanding the point I am trying to make. I am not saying it is justified by any means. Like you, I want to change that perception not just accept it.

Look, I don't believe generalizations help when trying to find solutions. In a perfect world we wouldn't have to pull down the wall of inequality brick by brick. Unfortunately, we do--regardless of laws on the books.

Let me generalize and stereotype a bit for emphasis here--women are better able to get a bargain on a shopping spree. We DO have astute bargaining/negotiation skills. Women just need to apply those same skills in salary negotiation.

[lukasahero]

45. Do they haggle over prices for merchandise much in the malls near you?

Finding a bargain at a shoe store is not the same skill as negotiating salary, in fact, it's not negotiating at all unless, like I said, malls are more prone to accept bargaining over prices where you are than where I am.

In fact, I wonder if the underlying mentality required to "bargain hunt" isn't more supportive of my point than yours. Why do women shop for bargains? Could it have anything to do with the mentality that Loriel built an entire marketing campaign around in order to get women to spend the extra money on a name brand vs. a discount product: "Because you're worth it."? Sounds to me like women who are hunting for bargains may very well be interested in getting a good deal but could also be reacting mentally to different factors, among them "I'm worth it but only because I got it at a real good price", not simply "I'm worth it" or "I've earned it" (using earn in the literal sense).

Applying that mentality to the workplace, they don't ask for more money because they don't believe, or know, that they're worth more than they're being offered as a rule.

Some stats from "Women Don't Ask: Negotiation and the Gender Divide" http://www.womendontask.com/stats.html

• Men initiate negotiations about four times as often as women.
  
• Women will pay as much as $1,353 to avoid negotiating the price of a car...
  
• Women are more pessimistic about the how much is available when they do negotiate and so they typically ask for and get less when they do negotiate — on average, 30 percent less than men.
  
• 20 percent of adult women (22 million people) say they never negotiate at all, even though they often recognize negotiation as appropriate and even necessary.
  
• By not negotiating a first salary, an individual stands to lose more than $500,000 by age 60 — and men are more than four times as likely as women to negotiate a first salary.
  
• Another study calculated that women who consistently negotiate their salary increases earn at least $1 million more during their careers than women who don't.

Women Have Lower Expectations and Lack Knowledge of their Worth

• Many women are so grateful to be offered a job that they accept what they are offered and don't negotiate their salaries.
  
• Women often don't know the market value of their work: Women report salary expectations between 3 and 32 percent lower than those of men for the same jobs; men expect to earn 13 percent more than women during their first year of full-time work and 32 percent more at their career peaks."

Another interesting, and especially empowering read from an interview with the authors of "Psychology of Leadership: Some new approaches" which includes a chapter called "Claiming Authority: Negotiating Challenges for Women Leaders,"
http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item.jhtml?id=3711&t=strategy

This entitlement effect is a little hard to understand. Some of it is linked to perceived deservedness: In ambiguity, women perceive that they deserve less than men...

There is not just an effect of ambiguity. There is an effect of ambiguity where there's a "gender trigger" in the environment. We could argue for a long time where these triggers come from, but they tell women "You're worth less," or "This isn't a situation where you should push." Or, "Why don't you let the guy do this one?"...

A root cause, in addition to entitlement, relates to social role or behavioral expectations within society. We do have a greater expectation of niceness from women than from men. There's a body of research showing that when women step into the realm of stereotypically masculine behavior and need to use an authoritative or directive leadership style, or need to aggressively claim, saying, "You should give me more money and resources," that this doesn't feel right coming from a woman. There's some research that shows there's a backlash to women stepping into these masculine roles.

Again, discrimination isn't simply some employer sitting across the desk thinking "yay a woman - I can get more work from her for less money". But it is in how we are taught to think of ourselves, what our expectations should be and how we perceive our worth.

I think because you are a business owner, you think I'm telling you that you have to do something to make up the wage gap. I'm not. I'm saying that a wage gap exists because of pervasive discrimination against women in society that begins with our very first perceptions of ourselves and our worth. That is propagated throughout our schooling and follows us into the workplace. If we are taught, and we believe, we are worth less than men then we will continue to expect less than men and get less than men as a result.

However, if an employer is socially conscious of this phenomenon among women and wanted to do something to help amend for it, they could consider it when making an offer to a woman. If one knows that a man is going to negotiate salary, then the initial offer is usually lower than what the employer is willing to pay because they expect to be talked up. If one knows that a woman isn't as likely to negotiate salary, then why not just come out and make a reasonable offer that would be comparable to what the male will get after negotiations? Too much to ask? Probably.

[Finder]

46. Good points

Thanks for the links. My only issue is it puts the blame on women in a sense for something THEY are lacking. Depending on the position,(sales, marketing)lack of negotiation would disqualify a candidate in the eyes of the one hiring.

The self-worth argument is another point we seem to always come back to. Only an individual can fix self-esteem, self-worth and self-confidence. It is easier to change ourselves rather than society, no?

In reference to another thread, it seems that women who do have high self-esteem and self-worth are seen as selling out or trying to be white male powermonger like. Damned if we do and damned if we don't.

As far as offering different salary starting points, that is illegal--an employer must offer the same no matter what gender the applicant is when they are equally qualified.(for most positions)

[lukasahero]

48. Re: your points

An employer usually has a salary range even for the most menial jobs. Once responsibility increases, so does flexibility in that hiring range. Qualifications and experience are often used as a basis to support a higher salary offer for specific applicants. How exactly are men able to negotiate for better salaries if the employer is restricted to a specific salary?

Where does an employer document the initial offer made to an applicant anyway? I know that an employer is supposed to pay employees who perform the same work the same rate, and that this is supposed to be documented and analyzed but which is also, as evidence supports, not reality.

If you read the second article, you would have noted that women are not being blamed for this. They are being educated about it. This is something real, something tangible that women can do to begin to correct the wage gap in this country and should be shouted from the hilltops. Once a problem is identified, it can be worked on and, as you yourself say, "it is easier to change ourselves rather than society, no?"

Actually, I'm a bit confused as to where you really stand on things. In the first paragraph you are concerned that giving women the skills and teaching them to negotiate puts blame on them as something they are lacking but in your second paragraph you blame their self-esteem issues for the problem and suggest that only they can fix that. I disagree. Most of the self-esteem issues women face come from how they are viewed by and treated in society. Yes, only you can change your self-esteem, but to expect one's self-esteem to be healthy and hearty when constantly faced with a society that pays you less, values you less and what value it does give you isn't based on your skills and ability but on your looks is naive.

I think the issue in the other thread isn't about women who have high self-esteem, it's about women who care more about their own situation and aren't particularly interested in advancing the role of women as a whole. People like Ann Coulter have benefited from feminism and now she thinks she'll be immune to the diminishing rights of women she is espousing. (Read The Handmaid's Tale lately, Ann?)

I think the point is that just because a person in power is a woman, doesn't mean she's a feminist, interested in the rights and success of other women or any better than any man who will sell out the rest of mankind to advance his own self-interest. (Bush comes to mind.)

[Finder]

49. Noted

That is why I said most jobs and when the same qualifications are involved. Today with the job market the way it is, negotiating is pretty much mute. Most candidates tend to be over-qualified. Depending on the industry, most job openings are posted. Teaching jobs(public schools), most corporations have the job req on their sites, union jobs, etc.--too many industries out there to cover here. The Dept of Labor actively tracks salary stats by demographics. The Census bureau is a bit different since they track unverifiable although self offered data.

I agree 100 percent as far as educating women on the skills you mention and feel we have done a lot in the past couple of decades in that area. Many community orgs, Chambers of Commerce, SBA are constantly offering seminars and courses to the public as well as in high schools and colleges.

I don't know where you got that I was saying educating was blaming, I just don't agree that all or even a majority of women lack that skill. I also do not think the influence of society or the media should be used as an excuse since it portrays us as weakminded. I agree the media and the standards in society are ridiculous but they have no power unless you give them power.IMO

I agree again with your opinion on Coulter but she is far from being a leader...she is an entertainer for the most part. An opposite of Stern, someone most love to hate or hate to love.lol

[lukasahero]

50. Two years ago I negotiated myself an $8/hour increase in starting salary

It's not a mute point regardless of the economy - it is something women have to learn and use.

[Finder]

47. Also, as far as malls in my area...(a digression)

you and I are only a few miles apart. I do haggle--even over shoes. If I find one little scratch or tear,(I look for repairable defects)I will find the manager and get up to 50 percent off. I hate shopping myself but when I do go, I am likely to bring flyers from a competitor for a product and get that price.

I do the same thing for vehicles and property with success.

[Wetzelbill]

51. Note to self.....never argue with Lukasahero or Finder......

I was going to jump in but the discussion got way over this poor male's meager brain power about 4 posts ago. Fascinating stuff though. Both of you made some great points. Lots of info too.

:D

[Beaverhausen]

4. My boyfriend is a nurse

and I count myself lucky to have such a nurturing, caring man in my life. Nurses spend far more time with patients than doctors.

He does home health care and his long term (10 years) patient is a 29 year old man with Muscular Dystrophy. My boyfriend has made a huge difference in the quality of his life that I think no female nurse would have done.

Not too many people question his sexuality...at least to my face.

You have to just let people think what they will.

Best of luck to you and your hubby in nursing! It's a wonderful profession! and like you said...there is a shortage now. You will never have to worry about finding work.

[Heddi]

5. we wanna work overseas

or at least get out of the country for a while since the Nursing Degree really opens pretty much doors around the world.

My nursing class has three guys in it now (it started off with 7), and my husband just looks up to these men like they are Jesus reincarnated. It really gives him hope that yes, Virginia, there ARE male nurses. And the number is growing each year. And I can see why--Registered Nursing is a relatively short degree to get (2 year program + 1 year of pre-req's) and you can be SO rewarded both financially and personally in this line of work.

I love it. I love working with patients. I love talking to them and getting to know them, know how they feel about being hospitalized, etc. Very short personal relationships, but relationships that give meaning to the person in the bed, you know?

Congrats on your boyfriend's job. I looked at doing home health care over the summer and I just didn't think I could do it. I didn't enjoy working at the Nursing Home when we had to do that for clinical work. I like the ER & OR & Same-Day-Surgery. I'm not too fond of the day-to-day patient care like they do on the floor.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

6. Male nurses are cool

A couple of weeks ago, a member of my choir (who has had a variety of health problems) felt faint in the heat before we were supposed to march in, and we took her to lie down. Although there are three or four nurses in the choir, only one, a man, happened to be there that Sunday, and he stayed behyind to take care of her. He sat next to her, wiping her face with cold water and later helping her walk to a cooler room. He was so kind and gentle, and if I were ill, I would be delighted to have someone like that taking care of me.

A bit earlier, I was attending the screening of a documentary, and I met a man who is running for local office. His bio said that he works as a nurse in a burn unit. Now that must take some kind of inner strength, dealing with patients who are in great pain and perhaps on the verge of death.

[ismnotwasm]

7. Times, they are a changin'

As a nurse I'm seeing more and more male nurses. It's an excellent profession for both men and women. I do see men used for "muscle" (can you help me boost a patient) In general, a male nurse is every bit as tough as a female nurse. That's right, I said tough. Ask any nurse in pediatrics who has had to code a dying baby. Ask any ER nurse dealing with trauma. Ask any surgical nurse after a long complicated surgery. Ask any long term care nurse dealing with an alzheimers patient. Or any hospice nurse who sits with family of a dying loved one. Me, I'm a transplant nurse, and I work with a few male nurses. Transplants nearly always have some sort of complication, if not right away, then later. Watching the hope turn to fear, finding the right words, making them get up and move when all they want to do is lay in bed. Helping them control pain, anxiety and fear. Trying to give them back that hope, when it seems like everything is going wrong. Nursing is so much more than technical skills, (Ask the general population about how they would feel about suctioning a trach patient--for wimps? I don't think so.) There is no profession that requires more internal fortitude than nursing. You can't get more "macho" What it takes inside to be a nurse some of us have. And it has nothing to do with gender. Some old school nurses may have a tough time with male nurses, but they'll get over it. They know. Good luck to you, you sound like you'll be and excellent nurse. We need you, AND your SO.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

9. Congrats on being halfway through!

And best wishes to your husband.

I understand what your husband is going through. My husband is also called "effeminate". That is such bullshit. It takes character to be who you really are in the face of neanderthals trying to label you. It takes character to be a strong woman in a man's world and it takes just as much character to be a strong man in this same man's world.

a "man's world" doesn't just mean a world ruled by men. Its a world ruled by a certain kind of man and accepted (and even enforced as evidenced by some of your friends) by some women.

[Heddi]

11. I find that

the people who label him "effeminate" are usually muscle-headed goons who have to use their fingers to add 1+1 (and use a paper and pencil just to double check).

I suppose I find it refreshing to find a man who's head isn't up the ass of the NFL, NBA, MLB, etc. Who can find time for me on the weekends EVEN IF there is a game on. You know---we've been together for 8 years and never ONCE has a single sports event EVER been watched on our TV.

Actually I lie. I like to watch the lumberjack competitions to see who can cut down a stump quickest, and the iron man things where guys pull fully loaded 747's with their nipples. But I do that out of the enjoyment of watching people make fools of themselves while doing silly things, not because I enjoy the sport of it.

I love that he doesn't have to engage in dick-wagging contests with other males on a regular basis. That everything in life isn't a competition. Every off-handed comment doesn't deserve a smack-down or a fight or some other penile-compensation measure. He's quite secure with his penis, thankyouverymuch.

I guess he's not a typical in your face HOO-HAA type-A personality. AND I LIKE THAT because I'm not a type A personality. Besides--Type A personalities generally find themselves in Sales, and I hate sales (even though I did it for about 5 years) and hate salespeople (no offense...unless I've worked with you...then you suck :) )

It's crazy how awful stereotypes are. I just hate them. They're simple minded thoughts for simple minded people. Yeah, honey, my old man is a fag because he's a nurse. Yeah. Sure. whatever. :eyes:

I guess I have pitty on someone who really is so ignorant to facts and logic. You try to tell them differently and you can just SEE them tune you out and go la la la la inside their heads. they don't want to hear it--it would shatter their beautiful mental image where every woman is a damsel in distress and every man is toned and has muscles the size of small cars. Oh. That's original :eyes:

My fantaasy---tall thin man with intelligence out of this world who can paint and play music and do all kinds of fun things. Fantasy is sitting around talking about deep subjects and using multi-syllabic words without having to explain them. Ah. I live that fantasy every day.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

16. Your fantasy?

Mine, too. If I find a tall thin man (actually, "tall" and "thin" are negotiable) who can paint and play music and do all kinds of fun things, talking about deep subjects and using multisyllabic words, I'm keeping him!

I have been trying the personals lately, and the preponderance of Typical American Guys, with their sports fixation, their idea that I should be impressed because they have a job and a house, and their overwhelming ignorance is truly discouraging.

[Heddi]

19. This is a secret, so don't tell anyone

but I met my husband through a personal ad. I was 21, living with a roommate and we decided to just increase our circle of male friends, meet some guys, go out to dinner, etc, and see if we could find some diamond out there that would treat us nice. We certainly weren't meeting any winners in bars and such, and our circle of male friends were, uh, not the type I'd want to date.

It was one of those singles phone line things, where you make a message about yourself and can listen to messages from others. I figured what the hell....it's only $7 to be a member for 2 months. I wasn't expecting much, and until I met my husband, I got just what I expected.

We talked on the phone for about 2 weeks before we met. This was years before the internet, so I had no way of seeing pictures of him. When we met, it was a double-date with my roommmate at a restaurant. As soon as he walked through the door I knew it was him.

On the 2nd date, he bought me flowers for no reason, and I told my mom that night that this was gonna be the man I married because not only did he buy me flowers for no reasons, but he didn't get me trite roses. Rather, purple daisies and a big fluffy yellow flower. For no reason other than politeness.

A few months later, we moved in together.

Three years later we got married.

The 29th of this month is our 5th wedding anniversary and our 8th year of being together.

I never would have imagined that I'd not only meet someone of quality from a personals ad but end up loving them and marrying them as well. I never thought I'd meet someone who was the perfect complement to ME. I really do believe that we were meant for each other. I think had we not met, we would have fallen into the boring life that we were heading towards. I'd probably be living in a trailer, with no ambitions, with several babies, probably divorced, living miserably with no hopes, dreams, or aspirations.

Don't get discouraged. Before I met mark, I went out on a date with a guy that was a complete freak. He carried 9 guns on him at all times (3 in the car, 2 in the trunk, and 4 on his person. Seriously. He showed me). That was freaky.

I met another guy who was into low-riders and 40-oz beers. Uh, no thanks.

I had to sort through the trash to find the gem. You'll find your gem. I promise. I did, and I'm happy I didn't get discouraged (which I was getting close to getting) before I did.

As an aside--My husband's message on the personals line was the last message I heard and replied to before my subscription ran out. Had I waited one more day, I would have never gotten to get ahold of him. Fate works when you least expect it, I suppose

:)

[Beaverhausen]

20. You described my boyfriend (the nurse) in your fantasy

well he isn't as thin as he used to be but all the rest is him.

Add to that he has long hair (a personal fav of mine), is a fairly good cook (makes amazing spaghetti sauce among other things), he adores smart women and he is the kindest most forgiving person I have ever known.

yum!!!

oh...what were we talking about again?

[atommom]

14. He sounds like a great guy, and I'm glad the two of you

are smart enough to ignore all those boneheads. We could use more men like that in this society!

[noamnety]

15. heh, it's good I'm not married to a male nurse

I know I would become obsessed with finding the perfect comeback.

(long blank stare) "I never would have figured you for one of those people that thinks there is such a thing as "women's work."

etc.

[spooky3]

25. ooo, that's a good one!

[all.of.me]

22. wow. i hardly thought this was an issue anymore!

how sad to see such shallowness in people! if women can drive trucks and be firefighters, there should be no question about men being nurses.

i think your husband is wonderful! good for him for doing what he wants to do. best of luck to both of you.

[bleedingheart]

30. I see nothing wrong with male nurses

sadly old stereotypes are there but hopefully they will all die out soon.

[Wetzelbill]

33. I wonder are the ones that say that about your husband old school?"

Because from a male point of view, I know that the more older conservative type men are highly threatened by women. There are men who can barely think of a woman as anything more than a secretary or a schoolteacher, so it freaks some of them out if say they had to work with a woman as an equal. Don't even mention having a woman for a boss!

I bring this up because the nurses you mentioned seem to have that same mentality. Whereas, a man will denigrate a woman with derogatory terms, a woman will also do the same to a man as a way to feel power over a perceived threat. Them calling your husband "gay" would be along the same lines as a man calling a woman a "bitch." As a nurse, your husband is nurturing and compassionate, so that makes him an easy target for name calling because us males aren't supposed to be like that. Now, in a Fortune 500 company, a woman would have to be ambitious and probably ruthless, which would make her and easy target for name calling because you women really aren't supposed to have those traits either. In theory anyway.

It sounds to me that the older guard nurses -and/or ones of that mindset- are threatened by having a man come into a historically female oriented career. They don't like that, in the same manner a man may not like a woman being his boss and making more money then him. In the end, your husband will be accepted because there is a nurse shortage and he's good at what he does. Also, nursing is a tough profession. I assume that it is the same as any situation where there are difficulties. In times of duress, people tend to bond. Once your husband shows his worth on the job, others will begin to care for him anyway. You nurses have a sense of community and mutual respect for your abilities right? Well, your husband will work his way into the fold wherever he goes. Plus, you love him, right? So he must be a pretty charming and nice guy, he sounds like it anyway. That'll all work in his favor.

Right now, he is a threat. Once he gets on a job and new people warm to him, he'll become an asset. I suspect this will work out alright. It's important that you just keep loving him and supporting him the whole time. It may be rough going here and there, but it isn't something that cannot be overcome.

As for him being effeminate, who cares if he is or not? You love him, he loves you and that's what is important. Nothing else. Being macho is overrated anyway. I'm a former bullrider and wrestler and a huge sports fan. I never miss pro wrestling. That all sounds hypermasculine right? Well, I'm also a published poet and author, I love film and art and I have wonderful platonic relationships with some truly beautiful and wonderful women. I could be construed in all kinds of different stereotypes from all of that, haha. But, it doesn't matter. I know who I am and the people who love me do to. So what I'm saying is, you know what a special person your husband is, and he knows what kind of person he is too. Anybody who wants to judge him as being anything less, simply doesn't matter.

[Heddi]

39. thanks for your thoughts

It seems as if his family has a hard time accepting his future career.

He was always the odd kid out. Has 2 older sisters who were the apple of daddy's eye. They were the typical over-achievers and even now, as 30-something adults, seems to get more pleasure out of pleasing OTHER people than they do doing things that would make THEM happy.

His dad, though, is just beside himself with disgust. My husband was always a disappointment to him. Not sports-minded, not competition-minded, not a rough and tumble boy. didn't like fishing, or hunting, or playing golf, or football, or baseball (all of which his father forced him to do as a child, then would get super-pissed when hubby not only didn't like it, but didn't succeed at it.)

So to his dad, this is almost like the final nail in the coffin. NOT ONLY did he get some faggy boy as a son, but NOW this faggy boy is goign to do faggy women's work as well. Oy vey!!! The horror, right?

I think the thing that pisses me off the most about this (well, not the most, but most pertinent here) is that I spend SO many hours fighting bigotry of all kinds--against women, gays, marganilized groups, religions, etc. I feel like I'm on this personal crusade to educate people whenever they make hateful comments. AND NOW I have to defend not just my husband, but men in general who choose a decidedly non-male profession. I mean, does it matter if he wanted to be a welder or a nurse? A commercial fisherman or a ballet dancer? Why is the quality of a person judged by what they do between the horns of the day? Why can't people look beyond the name-tag and uniform and see this guy would be the same REGARDLESS of the job he chose?

I suppose that, to some people, it's better to suffer in a gender-appropriate job that they hate than to break stupid, superficial, and meaningless boundaries and do something that they ENJOY?

[Wetzelbill]

41. you are welcome

Yeah, big disappointment, he has an excellent noble career, he's a good person, and has a wonderful intelligent wife who loves him.

Why can't all us guys be that disappointing? :)

[Heddi]

42. Yeah. What a loser

I bet he's gay too :)

[Wetzelbill]

43. probably

hahahaha

That made me laugh so hard. Thanks. Made my night.

[Logansquare]

52. It's a highly genderized profession, much like MDs used to be

When half of all med students were women, nearly everyone agrees that this is a good thing. But god forbid a man who tries to go into a traditionally female profession--nursing and librarianship are two that stand out for me. It's insulting, really. Like our female cooties will infect any man who does what we do and turn him into a big sissy.

[Nikia]

53. Good luck to you and your husband in your nursing careers

Men should not be ashamed to take careers in female dominated career fields and neither should women. Good for your husband for wanting to pursue it anyway and good for you for being supportive of this pursuit. Ideally, careers wouldn't be so genderized. This is bad for individuals, both male and female, who have intersts in the fields of the other gender. It also tends to be bad for women because in most societies, "women's work" tends to be equated to lower wages.