Hi

[undergroundpanther]

Just joined the feminist group.

Just saying hello.
Was moved to join by the recent posts I saw about feminism issues.

Great work Y'all.

I got a question..

What would be the feminist take on people like me who switch gender?

Interestingly statistics show most transgender female to males are more like female to androgyny..they do not always desire to"be a man" if it means the cultural gender lies.

(and I do not think this is all because the make dominated plastic surgery fields have failed to be able to construct decent penises)
I know I don't care about a penis.

I think some Female to male folks are more aware of the traps of binary gender because they felt the pain of them as women and they are painfully aware still as androgyny/men.

Transgender Males to females come at the issue of women's oppression very differently than females to males do.

Any thoughts?

[Heddi]

1. Helloooooo

What would be the feminist take on people like me who switch gender?

My take--it's none of my business.

My husband is a feminist and he's a man.

I don't think that one has to be biologically, to the X chromosome WOMAN to be a feminist.

More power to ya, ya know? Whatever makes you happy. I've known many transsexual and transgendered people throughout my life and I have to give them credit for just going through all the hoops required for sexual reassignment surgery. I don't know if I could do all of that like they did.

I had a friend--Terry---who I knew as a child. She was tomboyish and always said (even at a young age) that she just didn't FEEL right. She hated the typical Female Gender Role and skirts and dresses and makeup. Just didn't like it.

Terry was about 20 when she came out of the closet as a lesbian while in college. She said that she felt comfortable being WITH women, but still didn't feel comfortable being A woman herself.

Around that time, she went to an OB-GYN for her first pap-smear and the Dr asked her "So, when did you get sexual reassignment surgery?" and Terry was just STUNNED. She'd never had sexual reassignment surgery. She'd always been a girl--what's this Dr talking about?

Well---after much haranging of her parents and finally genetic testing, it was revealed that Terry was born with ambigious genitalia, and her parents had the option of either "making" her a girl, or "making" her a boy. The Dr's suggested that they go for "girl" because a vagina was easier to create than a Penis, which would require much more surgery during growth and would never be functional as a sex organ.

So they opted to "make" Terry a girl.

Whoops.

Genetic testing showed that Terry had XY sex chromosomes. Terry was born a BOY with ambiguous genitalia.

Whoops.

Much conflict ensued. It took alot of therapy before s/he was able to understand the position her parents were put in just hours after her birth and how they really were trying to do whatever was best for her.

She has since become a 'he', although just through hormone replacement. He still has a vagina, and isn't interested in getting surgery to create a penis. But FINALLY--after SO many years of feeling "wrong", he finally was able to feel "right".

Terry now lives as a man, and is married and has kids. I'm privleged to know such a person because it really showed me the strength and courage the human spirit has in it. THere were so many times when it would have been (in my eyes) easy for Terry to just throw in the towel and forget about the whole thing. But he didn't. He asked questions and demanded answers. He's gone through nursing school and works in the OB ward of a major hospital that deals with high-risk pregnancies and babies born with chromosomal abnormalities. He's counceld alot of parents who've had children born with ambiguous genitalia (it's alot more common than I realized!) and just let them know that before they make that choice, they really oughta get genetic testing to see if there is a prevelance of one sex or another, just to make the child's life easier later in life.

Sorry---this is about you, not me and Terry.

Welcome to the group! We have alot of fun here (and heartbreak sometimes with what we see posted)

[ismnotwasm]

2. To me feminism is a state of being as well as ideology

I just came over here also, BTW. To me, you are 'two spirit' embodying the male and female essence, which we all do to some extent. You probably know certain Native American bands revered the two-spirited, and considered them natural shaman. ('course other bands just killed 'em) Part of the problem is that the feminine has been subverted, dismissed, shunted off, used wrongly. There is a beautiful, powerful strength in the feminine, that has been choked off for centuries. We have painted it up, dressed it like dolls, presented it as a mother/virgin/whore trilogy, when it is so much more. Me, I'm a warrior. (I know I'm sounding a little mystical here, but I LOVE archetypes)So personally, I believe the trangendered have could have a very powerful voice in feminism--not to the masses who still hate and reject, but to the feminist state of being.

[Finder]

3. Welcome to the group.

Feminism is a state of mind. Our fight is about equality for everyone.

[noamnety]

4. Howdy

I don't know how to answer your question, because I don't really have "a take" on you, based on your gender.

And that's all I'd ask for myself, as well.

[Hello_Kitty]

5. Hi undergroundpanther!

Thanks for your post and I, for one, look forward to the insights you could bring to the discussion. I cannot imagine what you are experiencing in your journey to self-actualization and am fascinated by the implications of that. Because of that, I couldn't render an opinion of your situation as it pertains to feminism. Rather, I'd prefer to learn what you think of feminism and how it shapes your experience.

For me, feminism is about respecting the intrinsic value of all human beings in their infinite permutations of gender and sexual orientation. Forcing people into boxes labelled "male" and "female" has caused misery and pain for ages and has kept us all from realizing our true potential. Male, female, transgender, gay, straight, we're all expected to conform to some patriarchal expectation. The vast majority of us don't fit it and spend our lives compromising, living a blatant lie, or expressing our truth and reaping the punishment.

I'm interested in what you said about coming at the issue differently as M to F vice F to M. Maybe you could expand upon that. Thanks.

[undergroundpanther]

7. Well

For me it is less about"trappings" and Passing. I just have no gender in particular and it pains me when my body does not reflect this.

All of the males to females(MTF) trans-genders I have met, I hate to say it focus on becoming women by imitating how women look to men. They shop for clothes and shoes and make up.They crave"pillow talk" The cross dressing element in MTF is very prominent.until these trans-women discover the real femininity is in them has NOTHING to do with what people say a woman is.MTF tend to Exaggerate their feminine self in a way it's supposed to be, according to our cultural view of femininity (a male made view) of women to almost ludicrous levels until they learn to turn off the cultural programming and just be..



When I am around MTF who are just getting used to accepting their trans identities I feel a little uncomfortable.Like sometimes they are trying too hard to be"what men think women are" almost it seems they they cannot escape the "male gaze" This gaze that has long oppressed women that they now turn onto themselves. It's strange.

In Female to male trans-people,there is talk of "dick privilege" and 'passing too'..And I guess some guys go for that..But I wonder to myself how they assert dick privileges knowing full well the pain it causes women?

I myself feel sad about the "male gaze" the "dick privileges" and the shopping and appearances overcompensation in the trans community. Some people I guess take a long time to realize the entire idea of gender in of itself is a dual sided social delusion prison that hurts everyone different ways.

For me my gender is whatever gender I am expressing at the moment.For the most part I am not conscious of how others perceive me.I get Sirred and Maam'ed all the time ,because people get confused ..they correct themselves apologize and correct themselves again and again..guessing because they never know which pronoun to use.I tell them use the one you want because all of them are me...For me this genderless state is liberating. For others it inspires hate and terror.

Maybe it's time to go beyond male and female roles and realize we are co- citizens of Earth. Each of us are ever changing unique beings yet each needing others and have the right to be whatever we want to be and change ourselves as we desire to.. Because that no gender/all genders at once is what I am,and I am whatever I am at the moment and it's all good.

My genderless genders requires no trappings to fool the eyes of onlookers , no dick privileges to prove my worthiness of manhood to the guys to be in the males club .My transition is for only my own comfort and my expression as I define it,and my congruity between me and my body.For me I think when I am comfy in my own skin the issue of how others see me will become even more seamless and the discomfort people have around me will fade because gender will cease to mean anything at all,and I will not have that unconscious tension of fearing being labeled woman when I am not because of these big obnoxious unwanted protuberances on my chest..and my liberation from and to gender will be reinforced every time I look at myself when my chest is gone..


I ask you all,all you women here..please tell me, What does it mean to feel like a woman?
Can you tell me?Without relying on the cultural implications,roles and trappings of how womanness is defined..all around you?

What IS it?


I myself have never been able to honestly say I feel like a man or a woman,because I do not understand what those terms really mean to me and what I am supposed to feel if I look for a meaning or feeling outside of these cultural contexts or outside of what we are taught to believe that being a woman or girl or man or boy means.

This defining of a gender begins from the day we are born ,it is imposed on us when we are wrapped in a pink blanket,and the boys get blue,we are given a name that means girl,or boy in a way by proxy,and as we grow we get crammed into frilly dresses or overalls and are called daddy's little girl or mommies little man..as we imitate what roles gets us accepted..

Here is a story you might like
http://www.ubfellowship.org/archive/wwgender/gardner.html#appendix


And some links
http://www.thiswomanswork.com/MT/archives/002400.html
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/sci_cult/evolit/s05/web3/lpaterek.html

What does this gender mean really?
http://mentalhelp.net/psyhelp/chap9/chap9p.htm
http://www.aztriad.com/epilogue.html

Mystery of identity
http://www.unknownnews.org/040227a-panther.html

Comfortable state of mind
http://www.unknownnews.org/040131d-up.html

I hope this has helped.

[Hello_Kitty]

8. Thanks for the post

I haven't had a chance to read the links but I definitely will when I get a chance.

It's funny how you describe MTFs approaching their femininity through looking and speaking a certain way while ignoring their inner lives. That's exactly how many of us biologically-born females do it too. When I get dressed up to the nines, with heels, make-up, hair, nails, and the rest, I sometimes feel as though I'm putting on drag. I like all that stuff and it's fun, but it's not the real me. Yet, the message I've gotten is that's what is required of me to be "feminine". A woman looks like this and talks like that.

As I get older, and smarter (hopefully), I'm paying attention to a lot of qualities that I either didn't pay attention to or neglected to develop in my youthful quest to be desirable and love-worthy. It was all about the trappings and behaviors for me and the ironic thing is that I never got the love and security I was promised by society if I did all that. That's the ultimate lie of patriarchy IMO. No one can ever be feminine enough by its definition. It's impossible to eradicate your true self to the extent that it requires.

So basically, to answer your question, I also don't know what it feels like to be a woman. That's what I'm going to spend the rest of my life trying to figure out, while fighting to maintain my individuality in a world that relentlessly imposes conformity and punishes dissent.

[Finder]

9. "What does it mean to feel like a woman?"

Good question and I am sure you will get several different meanings.

I honestly think it depends on the circumstances a person is in. For me, it feels powerful at times and other times limiting.

I personally have never followed the stereotypical female role unless it suited my purposes. Most of my life I have felt androgynous for the most part. I do not feel feminine or masculine but can be either when I need to.

The only time I have ever felt truly like a woman(in a pure sense) was while giving birth and nursing and realized only as a woman could I have done so.(Although many other women in labor were also cursing the fact.lol)

Hard to explain how the event changed my perception of my femininity but it did. Logically, I believe it was the influx of hormones at that time but spiritually(closest word I can find)it was enlightening.

[spooky3]

6. Hi and welcome!