That Dirty Word: FEMINIST

[nashville_brook]

I'm having a discussion about That Dirty Word: FEMINIST, and was wondering if I could enlist the help of ya'll in the Women's Forum.

-- How do you respond when people insist that being a "feminist" dilutes the cause of progressivism?

-- Have you ever heard someone to say, "If everyone simply quit seeing the differences that don't matter, there would be no reason for anyone to be an '-ist' (feminist, environmentalist, etc.)?

-- How do you respond when people claim that the term "feminist" is somehow a "fighting word." Incommodious. Unfriendly.

-- How do respond to people who believe it is DIVISIVE to be a feminist?

-- What do you think when people tell us to quit using the term "feminist" because it "lends itself to the pejorative."
__________

To my thinking, when someone claims my ideals our divisive they are worse than blowing me off. They are claiming that my interests injure democracy. It feels like they are telling me to get on the program -- their program -- or stop taking up space. Why is this so common in the realm of gender issues? It would be clearly unacceptable to say this to a person of color or different sexual orientation. When it comes to womens' issues folks feel quite comfortable saying the tent isn't big enough.

Right now I'm not interested in my thoughts on the subject. I'm interested in others' experiences and thoughts.

[Eloriel]

1. These are all arguments intended to disappear the phenomonon if

at all possible, AND (most of all) hang onto their cherished (white, usually) male privilege.



-- How do you respond when people insist that being a "feminist" dilutes the cause of progressivism?

Men are FOREVER putting women's rights, women's issues, women's bodies, women's deaths LAST, after everything else. NO! The answer is NO! Our concerns and issues are human concerns, our rights are human rights, our bodies and lives are just as important as anyone else's.

Anyone who thinks feminism "dilutes the cause of progressivism" has no right to call HIMself a progressive. None whatsoever. There's nothing progressive about telling women to get on the back of the bus where women's rights or equality go.

-- Have you ever heard someone to say, "If everyone simply quit seeing the differences that don't matter, there would be no reason for anyone to be an '-ist' (feminist, environmentalist, etc.)?

Yes, and it's akin to the argument that "we should stop calling ourselves hypohenated-Americans," which is the point I made up top: it's an effort to try to eliminate the subject from all discussion, and if it can't be discussed, it can't be acted upon. If women's rights can't be discussed because we can't call ourselves "feminists," then we can't point out what's wrong and sexist, and therefore sexism flourishes.

Same for the racist verson: If African-Americans and Hispanic-Americans, and so forth. can't self-identify precisely as they please (and trying to prevent that is in itself racist!!!!), then the racism against them can't be discussed at all -- so, viola everyone gets to continue to be just as racist as they want wihtout ANYone being able to call them on it.

-- How do you respond when people claim that the term "feminist" is somehow a "fighting word." Incommodious. Unfriendly.

The people who find it unfriendly and incommodius are those who (a) don't understand it, OR (b) find it ultra-threatening (now who would THAT apply to), AND/OR (c) would like to see it go away so (am I repeating myself:) they can continue to be just as sexist as they want to be.

-- How do respond to people who believe it is DIVISIVE to be a feminist?

Yeah, and the Southern racists thought it was DIVISIVE to be a civil rights worker too. They called MLKJr divisive. The racists among us STILL like to try to claim people who want equality among the sexist are divisive. (See discussion above re racist version of "quit seeing the differences".)

-- What do you think when people tell us to quit using the term "feminist" because it "lends itself to the pejorative."

I think they're sexist pigs not worthy of a single 'nother minute of my time. EVER. No man is who isn't "educable," and this one doesn't sound that educable, frankly, but good luck -- maybe you have more patience and tolerance.

Here, btw, are some links on male privilege:

First, a great post by our own chicoloca:





chicaloca
102. All the posts here from irate white men....

Edited on Tue Jun-28-05 09:26 PM by chicaloca

perfectly illustrate a point I once heard about privilege of all types. The essence of privilege is that you can be completely blind to the fact that you have it, and then take offense when somebody dares to point it out.

on edit: I just realized that my signature also explains this concept pretty well.

"When we are inside a culture of power we expect to have things our way, the way with which we are most comfortable. We may go through life complacent in our monoculturalism, not even aware of the limits of our perspectives, the gaps in our knowledge, the inadequacy of our understanding. We remain unaware of the superior status and opportunities we have simply because we’re white, or male, or able-bodied, or heterosexual. Of course a culture of power also dramatically limits the ability of those on the margins to participate in an event, a situation, or an organization. They are only able to participate on unfavorable terms, at others’ discretion, which puts them at a big disadvantage. They often have to give up or hide much of who they are to participate in the dominant culture." --Paul Kivel
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=229x2478#2669


and this is a very good link:
White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack
http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~mcisaac/emc598ge/Unpacking.html

I'm sure some others will be along to share some of their wisdom.

Good luck! Let us know how it goes.

[nashville_brook]

3. wow, what a great reply!

i got into this discussion replying to a post that hit the "greatest" page where someone had equated feminism with rascism. i could tell the person wasn't familiar with the terms of the debate and didn't want to get into a bruhaha, so i asked him some basic questions to unpack where he was coming from and these bullet points came from his answer.

his demeanor has been just this side of not nice, which is ironic considering his concern with coming up with a more "friendly" word than "feminist." kinda gave me the feeling that he was demanding something he wasn't willing to give. friendliness.

the issue of privilage is the key here, i believe. his "voice" intimates privilage in the way he demands we get in line with his thinking in order to play "his" game. wow. writing these words is amazing to me. i haven't had a discussion like this since freshman year of college. and it's not like i live in a progressive utopia!

this is very helpful, thankyou!

[Eloriel]

6. And ain't it the blankety-blank pitts that a discussion like this

is required NOW?

Go get 'em, tiger. Soiunds like you've got the jerk pegged. Sooooo predictable, these sorry asses, aren't they?

[nashville_brook]

12. it's really sad. a failure of education.

i read the thread again and found where he had said:
"I'm liberal, damn it! I'm proud of it, and i want my adjective back!

i'm framing my answer using his own words. lets see how that sits with him. :)

(ya'll are wonderful, btw -- i can't believe i didn't know this forum existed!)

[Ripley]

2. It's really sad that on such a liberal site as DU there are so many

nasty remarks about "PC" - which almost always boils down to men being angry when they are told to stop posting sexist crap. I just read a thread in Editorials I believe, where someone posted something about how the PC stuff is killing Liberals. And the responses he got were not surprising. Lots of low-post count DUers and some of the regular sexist guys.

It's sickening to see when push comes to shove about what to do to get more people to vote for Dems....feminists, homosexuals and minorities are usually the people kicked to the curb.

I haven't seen anyone here use the term Feminazi like Rush does, but their description of PCness sounds exactly like Rush. When it comes down to it...liberal men will reign women in not unlike the Talibornagains when they feel the women are getting too uppity. Pathetic.

[nashville_brook]

4. and the thing about "PC" -- if they only knew -- it was a RW construct

pushed by dinish d'sousa and folks like david brock back in the 80s. it didn't exist. it doesn't exist -- it was a rhetorical device used by conservatives to marginalize progressive voices.

[nashville_brook]

5. here's the feminism=racism thing:

i'm not going to be a feminist, any more than i'll be a racist! I just want to be a "people-ist". I'll do right by anyone who just wants to live their life in a way that makes them happy, and hurts nobody else. Gender, race, orientation, do not matter. I'm looking for a simple, light-hearted term that describes it. But, i sure know we're not there yet. But, some of us are.

like wow!

[Eloriel]

7. Oh, yes, let's all be light-hearted and gay, and not bother our

pretty little heads worrying about ugly thigns like sexism and racism and homophobia. Ewwww. Let's not even LOOK at those things, let alone think about them. That way nice, white males like me who really prefer a much more light-hearted approach to life don't have to be pulled up short on our RESPONSIBILITY to make changes so we can have a little genuine equality for the other damned half of the human race, and people of color and gays and lesbians and such.

:grr:

[Ripley]

8. He sounds like an ignorant fool.

So he equates being a feminist (equal rights for women) with being a racist (unequal treatment of minorities). Uh huh. Light-hearted term... :wtf:???? Yes buddy, when talking about forced pregnancy, rape and discrimination in the workplace, by all means let us wimmin folks be polite and light-hearted. Dare not we get angry. He's probably one of those guys that gets very un-light-hearted when he hears Hillary voice concerns over pornography in kids videos.

[nashville_brook]

9. the thread originated in

the lounge -- and was voted up. i never spend any time in the lounge, so i'm unfamilar with the personalities and was floored by the discussion -- the whole discussion. it was really kinda embarrassing.

have a look:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x3814645

[Ripley]

11. No thanks. I should have known.

I think DU would be 100 fold better if it deleted the Lounge all together. Notice how the usual suspects who post sexist and racist crap don't post anywhere else on DU but there? It's like our very own KKK high school locker room.

[nashville_brook]

13. when all this happened yesterday i took a peek in there and

all i could think of was that it reminded me of the playground at nursery school. i know everyone needs to just chat sometimes. but isn't that what AOL is for?

[Ripley]

14. Hahaha! AOL.

I remember years ago when AOL was the only Internets around ;) and I discovered Chat rooms. I found one on Metaphysics that was kind of interesting to me at the time. However, within a couple of months it was infiltrated by teenagers and guys trying to get "laid". I started looking at other chat topics and they were ALL like that.

Left AOL and never looked back.

[nashville_brook]

10. self-delete

hit the button twice

[nashville_brook]

15. here's my final response:

this is what you said earlier in the thread:
"I'm liberal, damn it! I'm proud of it, and i want my adjective back!"

Feminist is MY adjective. no one gets to take it away. if my issues are going to be addressed, they are going to be addressed by feminsts. who is anyone to say i can't or shouldn't use this word? if it weren't for feminists working on reproductive health issues, fair-pay, child care and violence against women -- no one would. that's how the terms came about. from people doing the work.

it's not a zero-sum game. Feminists don't steal your ability to do your work as a liberal. feminists don't injure your ability to reach your goals. there isn't a finite amount of progressivism in the world. as a matter of fact, everyone benefits when progress is made.

if there is a reason that the term feminist isn't friendly enough for you -- there's most likely a reason that has nothing to do feminists working toward equality. perhaps you are comfortable with a level of sexism that women and men who call themselves feminist, aren't.

bottom line is you are defined by what you do -- if you aren't doing the work to save forests; or to protect reproductive rights -- then you don't DESERVE the title environmentalist or feminist. if you were engaged in these issues you would insist on having the privilage of using the adjective, feminist.

peace out

[nashville_brook]

16. i just realized -- it's not clear that this was my response in the guy

not to ya'll -- hope it wasn't taken the wrong way :) i was in a hurry to sit down to dinner.

thanks for the help with this! everyone's input helped me gather my thoughts. it's my hope that i cracked this open for him rather than just ruffling his feathers.

i remember back in school... feminism classes or phil classes where we worked on liberation issues -- there would always be a few people who didn't get it. they'd be the most outspoken, disruptive students in the beginning. but by the middle of the semester, with reading, understanding and perspective no one remained lost in their dogma. my hope wasn't to put him "in his place," as my mother would say. it was to show him the larger world he's missing.

[lukasahero]

17. Not to worry,

I didn't find your post confusing (i.e. - I knew which post your "final response" was referring to). :hi: Thanks for trying - some people, though, will never learn - they don't want to.

[nashville_brook]

18. the best thing about that is

i enjoyed the exercise. i enjoyed meeting ya'll. i needed to re-examine these issues. who really cares where he is in his mind -- this was a great thing for me! :)

[Eloriel]

20. Excellent. Well said and right on.

There's so muich intelligence and spirit in this forum. :toast:

I'm glad the damn thread in the Lounge is now "archived" -- but I will be reading it.

Edited to add: Actually, as the Lounge goes, that was a very GOOD thread.

[undergroundpanther]

19. Bullies used to privelege

are loathe to grow up,they got thier status on the submisson of others.Equality and speech that is direct,fair,clear and RESPECTFUL of others these biullies deem lesser yjan themselves scares the HELL out of any dominator fool who likes his ill gained perks.