Doctor lectures woman about weight/marriage prospects

[Hello_Kitty]

I saw this covered on CNN yesterday and my head about exploded
Here's an article

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9035236/

It's one thing for a doctor to counsel a patient about possible complications of obesity but to make her future marriage prospects and attractiveness to men an issue is really stepping over the line. He was interviewed on CNN about it and claimed that while he was sorry he upset the woman (he did write a letter of apology), he doesn't regret the lecture. He said he gives the same speech to all his obese patients, but a slightly different one to men. Gee, wonder what the 'difference' is - the marriage part maybe?

And some people think that we're making too big a deal of beauty standards and women being judged by how we look and how much we weigh. But here's an example of how a woman can't even go to her frigging doctor without her looks being brought up!

You know, since our looks are the most important thing about us, since our mating and job prospects hinge upon whether or not men find us attractive, I have a proposal. I propose that all, or a large portion of, any funds used toward maintaining our appearance be a tax write off. If we have to look a certain way in order to get a job, a man (still needed for financial support by many women given wage gap and glass ceiling), and even basic respect from a physician, then we should get some financial respite. It's goddamn expensive and arduous to comply with the ever shifting and arbitrary beauty standards imposed upon us. I should be able to write off my gym membership, clothing, make-up, hairstyling, and the various and sundry other expenses I incur in order to not offend the ever assessing eyes of the males around me. Any surgical procedures I might want to get should qualify as well since I'll need them to stave off the ravages of aging that cause my marriage prospects to dwindle, according to the good doctor.

Seriously.

[kalibex]

1. Amen.

"I propose that all, or a large portion of, any funds used toward maintaining our appearance be a tax write off."

Troo, dat.

-B

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spooky3]

3. What's your evidence about the gym memberships?

Do you have a link?

Without one, I have a hard time agreeing with "many". Some corporations will subsidize gym memberships and a tiny, tiny % have onsite gyms. But I've never heard of health insurance covering these.

[Nikia]

4. My health insurance pays $50

Per year (Blue Cross Blue Shield of Wisconsin). Most gyms cost a lot more than that.

[Ripley]

10. No kidding!

I almost pay that in one month. And our insurance (BCBS via a huge corporation) does NOT cover it.

It seems some people like to use the Feminist's Group to innocently post flame bait. Like posting things are "silly" when a woman files a suit for sexual harassment.

[spooky3]

15. this is not the first time that misinformation was used for that

purpose, either.

[Finder]

21. Many insurances do cover health clubs...

including a lot of plans under BCBS.

It was not my intention to post any sort of flamebait. Nor is this thread about sexual harassment lawsuits. The article was about a woman filing an ethics complaint because a doc told her she needed to lose weight. The doc was an idiot to use marriage or relationship prospects to scare her but idiots are not rare in this country by any means.

[spooky3]

23. As I asked previously, you need to support your assertions.

I happen to have professional knowledge of this topic and what you say is at odds with it, so I don't see why you are so reluctant to provide evidence. I'd be glad to learn of contrary information but that means a link to this evidence.

You have posted factually incorrect statements before (e.g., in the post about the definition of obesity, in a prior post about comparable worth vs. equal pay legislation). Therefore I'm not inclined to take an unsupported statement as fact.

Please understand that there is a difference between offering a subjective opinion, and making a allegation of fact that is not supported.

[Finder]

28. Factually incorrect? Doubtful.

Many health plans cover health club memberships in part. A poster in this thread even stated hers did.
What did I ever post that was generally not factual regarding wage legistlation or obesity?

My health plan(UShealth) covered my health club membership(family membership at a private club)up to 75 percent 3yrs ago. Here are a few of plans that offer fitness club memberships. Many diagnosed with morbid obesity may be eligible to have the whole thing covered. Depends on whether you attend a wellness program or a specific health related program(CardioCare).


http://www.bcbswny.com/

http://www.bcbsma.com/common/en_US/pdfs/FitnessBenefitForm.pdf


http://www.bluecrosswisconsin.com/visitors/healthyLiving/lifestyleblue/FitnessFlyer_000.pdf

http://www.co.sanmateo.ca.us/vgn/images/portal/cit_609/8/21/690229hfCL02_HealthPlans.pdf

http://www.quitnet.com/q_corp/q_news/CIGNA/press_release.htm

http://www.refityourself.com/refit/awards.html#metlife

[spooky3]

36. Like Ripley, I'm not willing to play games with you.

In the belief that you are sincere, I'll try one more time to explain the concerns to you.

You HAVE been mistaken in facts, as Ripley pointed out below re: obesity definitions, and also in your assertions about comparable worth legislation, which I pointed out to you earlier this summer.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=341&topic_id=2612#2650

This is particularly a problem when inaccurate, exceptional, or outdated material is used to dismiss issues of concern to women in this forum. Now, let me explain my problem with your assertions this time.

I'm glad you added a few links, but did you look closely at them? All of these are individual examples. Anecdotes alone do not support the use of the word "many", and covering a bit of a membership or offering a discount is nothing at all like providing memberships, which is what your first post claimed. Let's look at each link:

--the BCBS New York link describes only a fitness benefit for SENIORS and those eligible for Medicare. These leaves out the vast majority of employees. And there is no indication that the full cost is covered.
--the San Mateo link specifically notes that some of the plans do not provide even gym discounts, let alone full memberships, and the best the others seem to do is offer discounts of unknown amounts. Likewise the BCBS MA shows no amount of coverage, and specifically notes that employers may not have adopted this benefit.
--The BlueCross Wisconsin link (undated--how do we know it's current? see the point re: the last link) provides only $50 PER YEAR toward a membership. As others have pointed out, that probably doesn't even cover one month of the expense at most clubs.
--Your "quitnet" link says nothing about gym memberships which is what you talked about in your linke; it deals with other types of programs.
--In the last link, the examples are from the 1990s and evidence is that employers have shifted much more of benefits costs onto employees and cut benefits compared to the 1990s. This same link provides no evidence at all as to who is paying for the programs, and describes many programs other than gym memberships, such as taking classes or weight-loss programs that involve changing diet.

More convincing evidence would be a survey of a random sample of employers or insurance programs showing that a large % (i.e., "many") of employer-sponsored insurance programs fully covered these memberships or even a significant proportion of the costs. Ideally, this should appear in a refereed journal, reviewed by experts who have examined the methodology. Therefore, I don't see anything in these links that refutes my original reply to you, other than that I appreciate your showing me that there are some health insurers that partially cover gym memberships.

[Ripley]

24. The ethics complaint is in part due to sexist language used by the dr.

Feminists Group Rule: - Attempts to minimize or dismiss women and/or the issues being discussed are not welcome.

I've had BCBS insurance under three different companies. None covered health clubs.

[politicat]

6. Have not had one covered yet....

We get a discount at CU because I'm an alum and DH works for a company that's partnered with 'em, but it's still more expensive than using the community centers, and they're more expensive per year than the treadmill, recumbent bike and multi-weight system I've got at home.

Cigna did not cover a gym membership, nor did BC/BS or Kaiser. Since those are the big three....

And as far as the complaint being silly... what if the woman had been black, and her doctor had said, "You know, you really should get these skin lightening treatments and your hair straightened. That will improve your job prospects, marriage prospects and get you better access to money and health care." That would be called racism. So what is the difference?

Further, the fact is that the jury is still out on some aspects of appropriate weight. This is still a very poorly understood area of medicine, and will probably continue to be poorly understood and patients with weight management issues will continue to be poorly cared for as long as attitudes like yours and the doctor's are considered gospel handed down from on High. We don't understand metabolism at all well... ask any endocrinologist. A GP? Most haven't a clue.

[Hello_Kitty]

7. What if you don't have insurance?

Screw that anyway. I want a tax write off. This isn't about health. It's about a proven correlation between my weight and my lifetime earnings. http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/05/28/womens_weight_found_to_affect_job_income/

[Nikia]

5. I think that his speech was inappropriate for a doctor

I think that he was really assuming a lot. I am assuming that he really did know that her husband was obese. If he was just assuming that, it would make things even worse. That aside, he was probably not near death at that very moment so it is presumptious to assume that he would be dying in the near future and inappropriate to bring it up unless she expressed concern. It is also presumptious to assume that she would want to remarry if her husband did die. Even so, as a doctor he is supposed to give out health advice not dating advice to someone who probably doesn't want it. If he wanted to lecture her about her weight, he should have cited health effects.

[Hello_Kitty]

8. There was more elaboration on the CNN segment

Her husband was obese as well. The doctor launched into a defense of his marriage comments based upon the probability of her husband dying sooner than her and his assumption that "men want to marry runway models". That's what he said. Seriously.

Now, if all women were able or willing to heed his advice and get skinny, there would still be fewer eligible males for them to marry as they got older so I still don't get how he thinks he's being helpful there. He just came off as a smarmy control freak to me.

[lukasahero]

9. "men want to marry runway models"

Unless the men are models themselves, I suggest they get over it. :evilgrin:

[Hello_Kitty]

12. I dunno about you but

The vast majority of married folks I see out there are NOT runway models, male or female. Actually, a lot of incredibly good looking people spend their evenings alone. In the case of beautiful women, it may because they are tired of being hit on by shallow jerks like Dr. Fuckwit there in New Hampshire.

[Ripley]

11. Awww, isn't that just oh, I don't know, maybe SILLY?

That silly silly woman and her silly silly lawsuit. That male doctor has every right in the world to tell her she MUST BE THIN in order to find a mate if her husband dies. He has every god damned right to explain the facts of life to her. "men want to marry runway models" and so you fatties better lose that fucking weight or you'll be a lonely old maid FOREVERRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Silly women. Isn't silly such a nice word when referring to women?

:sarcasm:

[Hello_Kitty]

13. Yes of course, we are just being silly

When the beauty standards actually, you know, bother us.

Otherwise, they are incredibly important, as we are reminded on a continual basis by everyone and everything that our number one obligation in life is to be an attractive object.

[spooky3]

14. the doctor claimed he had to be extreme to get through to his obese

patients.

Maybe it's just silly me, but diabetes, heart attacks, etc. seem to be just a LITTLE more extreme than hypothetical dating prospects in your 70s. And as an added bonus, I doubt that anyone would question a doctor's talking about those health risks if he did so in a professional manner.

Maybe all those women who are supportive of him were treated more professionally, or maybe they are among those women who have also internalized the sexist messages we've received all our lives and have no problem with being denigrated or with piling on when another woman is.

It just seems very unlikely to me that any board that investigates its own, is very reluctant to get involved if there isn't at least some fire where there is smoke. Most of them err on the side of letting complaints go when they shouldn't, rather than the reverse. That makes me think that the doctor really is not giving us the straight scoop.

[Ripley]

16. How about practicing without a license?

It sounds like he was trying to play Dr. Psychologist, not General Practitioner. Is he licensed to give psychological advice? Or does he just learn his spiel from Dr. Phil?

[Nikia]

18. I wonder how he handles women w/ eating disorders

Most runway models are under weight. Most women cannot look like runway models. Some women purge or restrict in order to lose weight in order to look like a runway model (actually eating disorders are more complex but that is often a reinforcement if not cause). In most cases, a woman who does not have a small frame is doing herself more danger by looking like a runway model, weight wise, than by being mildly obese. When a young woman presents herself in his office, 30 pounds lighter than the previous year and is underweight does he ask her about it or does he tell her that she looks perfect or perhaps could lose another 5-10 pounds.
In the case of the obese woman, she is not likely to look like a run way model regardless of how much she diets. She won't believe that she will ever look like a runway model so what is the use of trying. She would be more likely to succeed if she were given a more reasonable goal that would benefit her health. For example, some people do well healthwise and live long lives even though they are in the overweight weight range. I don't know how old she is, but antedotally it seems like women naturually gain weight around menopause. Sometimes they lose it without trying in their 70's and 80's. I don't know if this weight loss is good, bad, or neutral. It is just something that I have observed and no these people didn't have cancer.

[spooky3]

27. My experience was consistent with what you're saying...

When I was significantly underweight for my height for about 8 years (BMI below the "normal" threshold, as a mature adult), NO health care pro, including several physicians I saw during this time, expressed any concerns or even asked me about it. Although one of the doctors weighed patients routinely during yearly visits, and I had a significant change from one year to another, he didn't ask about it. A friend told me she didn't know why doctors bothered weighing women, since they seemed to pay little attention to changes (at least not to reductions), and it only served to make women reluctant to come into the office to get on the scale if they were overweight.

Of all the people I knew, only one (a boyfriend) asked if I might be anorexic. I wasn't, but I was pretty thin. Everyone else who commented was very complimentary on how "great" I looked, "like a model", how "jealous" they were, etc.

[lukasahero]

29. Ditto here

I had an eating disorder and the only people who ever said anything were either complimenting me about "how small I was" or asking me how I "stayed so thin". This started in college and went on and off for 15 years. I've always been small (I'm only 5'2" and my whole family is "small boned") but when I was thirty-five, I dropped down to 88 lbs. No doctor ever said a word.

(BTW, I'm happily weighing in at 110 now. No worries, ok? :))

[Nikia]

37. My experience has been mixed

When my eating disorder started, I was also seeing a gastro doctor. He did notice that I lost weight. He commented "IBS shouldn't make you lose so much weight so quickly." He asked if I was menstrating. When I said that I was, he said "As long as you are menstrating, you aren't too thin. Try eating more or higher calorie food."
My regular doctor didn't say anything to me about my weight loss until she and my therapist, who I was going to for anxiety, talked about it. That was for my yearly physical which did involve her seeing more of me than usual. Still, she didn't say anything at that appointment. Instead she had my therapist confront me. For the follow up appointment, both she and the nurse made it a point to tell me that I had lost more weight and that it was unhealthy. When I saw her, she told me about some of the health risks, but that she didn't really know much about eating disorders.
I had seen several doctors in between my gastro doctor and regular doctor who didn't say anything about my weight loss. I had seen them for things like fatigue, dizziness, feeling cold all the time and achiness. I later found out that these symptoms can all be caused by eating disorders.
I am attending a support group lead by a therpist who specializes in eating disorders and who is in recovery. She said that many doctors don't even want to deal with eating disorders. Often, the family has to bring it up and she has had to advocate medical care of many of her patients. Often medical professionals don't take them seriously until the patient has gotten in very poor health, even though eating disorders have greater success of treatment if caught early.
As for me, I have been eating somewhat normally for two months. I haven't gained weight, but I am not losing it like I was either. I am attending weekly support group and weekly individualized counseling. It is a struggle everyday.
As for people in my personal life, my husband initially didn't think I was really anorexic until he went to the family group of eating disorders and became educated. My father, best friend, and boss all commented that they already knew or strongly suspected that I was when I told them. They commented that they were afraid to say anything to me about it though. As for other people, it is annoying to have people compliment you on being thin when you have a problem. It reinforces the eating disorder. I really don't know what to say.
They say that people are concerned about others being obese because they are concerned for their health, yet we glamorize women who may be harming their health. It is messed up.

[Samurai_Writer]

17. This doctor is an idiot as well as insensitive

For one thing, not ALL men want skinny women. Heck, SOME men even find fat women sexually attractive. I'm a BBW model, and I have NO problems getting dates. I could get married if I wanted to, but I'm happy being single. But just as with those conventional 'thin' models, I have guys approach me who are ONLY interested in my physical appearance! Shocking, I know, that a guy would be physically attracted to a fat chick!

This doctor was not only unprofessional but uncaring as well. As a BBW, it took me years to learn to like myself the way I am. Many, MANY fat women are insecure about their looks. Those women can get very hurt by stupid remarks like this doctor made. If it had been me, I would have told him to keep his nose out of my love life and walked out of his office, never to return.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ripley]

22. Have you read the rules lately?

1. You are breaking general DU rules by calling ccbombs and others liars when they give examples of what the doctor said on CNN.

2. Why would you doubt he is promoting skinny? Are runway models known for being normal, let's say healthy weight for their height? No. The vast majority are all very thin.

3. Your definition of obesity is incorrect. http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=4607

Obesity: The state of being well above one's normal weight.

A person has traditionally been considered to be obese if they are more than 20 percent over their ideal weight. That ideal weight must take into account the person's height, age, sex, and build.

Obesity has been more precisely defined by the National Institutes of Health (the NIH) as a BMI of 30 and above. (A BMI of 30 is about 30 pounds overweight.)

4. Feminist Group rules state - Attempts to minimize or dismiss women and/or the issues being discussed are not welcome.

[Finder]

30. This is the info I was referring to.

I called nobody a liar.

Definition

The term morbid obesity refers to patients who are 50 - 100% -- or 100 pounds above -- their ideal body weight. Alternatively, a BMI (body mass index) value greater than 39 may be used to diagnose morbid obesity.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003102.htm

[Ripley]

31. You know what? I'm sick of playing your game.

I can't retrieve your exact words because they were deleted by the moderator. But you know damn well you said something to the effect of "the doctor did not say what people in this thread are saying" (if that is not calling someone a liar, what is?) and "I seriously doubt any doctor would tell someone to be skinny" and "the clinical definition of obesity is 100 lbs overweight" (you never used the word morbid obesity)

Deny any of that?

[Finder]

32. Honestly not playing games, just trying to discuss.

I also stated I thought he went over the line by discussing marriage or relationship prospect issues.

I was discussing the article posted by the OP in particular and I did see him on CNN but not once did I hear or read him state he promoted runway model weight.

I do find the definition posted above regarding obesity as being 30lbs overweight questionable since as I stated, studies show that those considered overweight outlive or have less health concerns than those falling within "normal weight". I am really on the same page as the rest of you except when it comes to the health aspect of obesity(meaning medically diagnosed "morbid obesity")

[Hello_Kitty]

35. On the segment I saw

He said "men want runway models". I believe it was the live one and they interviewed him via satellite. Often, when CNN replays a segment they cut part of an interview.

[Hello_Kitty]

34. I missed the deleted post entirely

So I'm gathering that the implication was that I'm dishonest because the doctor didn't say exactly this or that.

My OP wasn't meant to be only about that doctor anyway. It was meant to be taken in the larger context of how looks-ism permeates every aspect of our experience as women. Here you have a doctor telling a patient to lose weight because if her husband dies no one else will want to marry her and then said doctor goes on TV and says "men want runway models". Interesting choice of words from someone who is supposedly concerned with health. Okay, maybe he didn't say women need to get skinny but how else should one interpret his remarks?

I'm also tired of the word games and 'gotcha' bullshit. If someone thinks fat-bashing and appearance based discrimination is fine and dandy, then they shouldn't bother responding to those of us who want to discuss those issues. If it's silly and it's no big deal and we should just not let it bother us, then why are some so quick to defend it?

[spooky3]

39. definitions of overweight, obese, morbidly obese

http://www.obesity-online.com/patientinfo/concepts_of_overweight.htm#f1

This url defines terms with reference to BMI, not number of lbs., and cites American Society for Bariatric Surgery as its source.

[Hello_Kitty]

26. There are women who refuse to see a doctor

Because of being ragged on about their weight. I realize doctors are in a tough position with regard to balancing concern with the overall health of their patients and encouraging good habits with respecting them as autonomous human beings. But getting a physical examination is intense and awkward under any circumstances, let alone introducing the added humiliation of a patronizing lecture about how your weight affects your marriage prospects! That's just wrong on so many levels.

Something else I'd like to add is that although I'm "normal" weight, I smoke and drink. Both are unhealthy habits that contribute to various diseases and can shorten one's lifespan. As far as my doctor is concerned, I do neither. I just make sure I haven't smoked for a long enough duration prior to the appointment for him to smell it on me and I say "none" when he asks me how much I drink. I know it's dishonest but I just don't want to hear the lecture. But you have no idea that I smoke and drink unless you see me engaged in those activities. And I'm fully aware of the risk I'm taking. Why wouldn't I be? If I want help quitting smoking from my doctor, I'll ask him for it.

On that note, I think it's kind of disingenuous when people presume that they are being helpful when they point out to an obese person the risks of being heavy. Excuse me, but do you honestly think that anyone who has not lived under a rock for the past few decades doesn't know the purported risks of obesity? Yes, a kid or an uneducated adult would be an exception but the patient who made the complaint is neither. Similarly, what woman doesn't know that she is judged by her looks? Being fat or a woman are things that you can't disguise, unlike smoking and drinking. That's why I think this doctor is a total control freak jerk for saying what he said to someone who was basically a captive audience. He should definitely be disciplined.

[Finder]

20. And just to make things interesting...

Dr. Terry Bennett, a family doctor to the Binladins, discusses the family
Nov. 6, 2001



http://www.courttv.com/talk/chat_transcripts/2001/1106bennett.html

[Hello_Kitty]

25. Is that the same doctor?

I can't tell from the article because it doesn't say where this Terry Bennett currently practices. Very odd.

[Finder]

33. Seems to be.

I found another reference that said he was a NH doc.

[Kipepeo]

38. Tax write off

For women? Heeeheeehee. They are more likely to tax us more.

Does anyone remember when Australia implemented a new tax for all "non-necessary" items a few years ago? Food did not have this new tax, neither did men's shaving gel or razors (all considered necessary) - but tampons and pads sure got the tax.

Sorry - just a bit of an off topic rant.

As for the topic - just plain disgusting. But it doesn't surprise me anymore. The doctors' offices where I live are all packed with leaflets on bowtox, liopsuction, nose-jobs, boob-jobs, face tightening, chemical peels, etc. You know the little plastic brochure holders that used to hold info on different illnesses? ALL filled with every cosmetic surgery under the sun now. I feel *assaulted* just walking into the lobby of my doctor's office. It's like, "you're supposed to help me be healthy asshole, not chip away at my self esteem."

[ismnotwasm]

40. As a nurse, I see the effect of obesity in MEN and WOMEN

I think we can all agree that obesity, especially morbid obesity, is bad for your health. Does the good doctor discuss future marital prospects with his male clients? He comment that that the patient would likely outlive her spouse is bullshit, if we're talking morbid obesity. It's the, excuse me for yelling VERY LAST THING THEY NEED TO HEAR. As a health care professional, I understand the frustrations medical persons go through, when despite their very best efforts, destructive behaviors do not change.(And I'm not talking about weight--there is a long list) Folks begin to appear, and then reappear at emergency rooms and subsequent admissions at hospitals--we call them frequent flyer's.
That being said, A doctor is not a parent. I don't need "tough love" --facts given in a open, professional manner will do. What I choose to do with the information is out of the doctors hands. Even If someone went to her doc, and told him/her she was afraid of outliving her spouse and never finding another one because of my weight, she should be referred to a different professional who deals with things like fear and poor self esteem. I believe they are usually called counselors, psychologist, psychiatrists. There are also support groups for those whose insurance doesn't cover such things. A good doctor would refer his patient to the most appropriate professional. I've seem too many doctors overstep their expertise.
One word-- for those who have time. I don't belong to a gym,(can't stand them) I'm 45 years old and I stay in good shape. I do this by fast walking partly using hills and stairs and using light weights at home. Sometime I put on music and dance by myself. I'm far from the current fashion of what womanhood is supposed to look like, but I'm healthy and happy with myself. If someone is overweight, and feeling down on themselves, gyms can be intimidating and discouraging. I'm not discouraging them, they're just not for me. And It's always an inside job-- how you feel about yourself that is.