Something messed up that's been happening to me.

[BlueIris]

God.

This is so irritating.

All of my young adult and adult life I have had classic "problem" skin. Nothing worked to clear it up--not any prescription med, (and before anyone posts it, no, not even oral contraceptives) no antibiotic, nothing. I had just learned to live with a moderate amount of acne on my face. No big deal, I've honestly never cared what people think about it. I still don't. I refuse to wear makeup because of my concerns about the toxicity of even natural/organic cosmetics. Also, cosmetics make me look worse, as opposed to better.

I recently discovered that my approach to skin care has been totally off. I always thought that I had oily skin with extremely oil patches. Turns out, I have dry skin with extremely dry patches. After just ten days of good moisturizing, my skin tone and texture have dramatically "improved" (the acne's gone and my skin is very smooth).

Here's the thing: since the improvement, people have been not just nicer but MUCH nicer to me. Men flirt with me. Women--especially the more "conventionally 'attractive'" ones--are more considerate, helpful and kind (especially in department stores). Folks open doors for me. One person yesterday even started up a conversation about my life (in line at a grocery store) and then wound up telling me he would "pray for my success in life." Because it "seemed like (I) deserve(d) it."

Now, it could be that I'm just having a good week. That the shift into the pretty autumn days around these parts has made the region's average citizen more gregarious and generous. But--somehow I doubt it. We've talked a lot in this forum about how a woman's appearance drastically impacts the way in which this misogynist society, with its love of the infamous 'mythical norm' for what constitutes a beautiful woman, views and treats her. I am...not feeling terrific about the sudden change in the way my fellow citizens treat me. What was so bad about me (or rather, what these shallow people saw of me) before? Has anything like this ever happened to any feminists here? What actions, if any, did you take as a result?

(And, please, especially to some of the newer contributors to this forum, I'd love it if people could avoid posting, "just take it as a compliment," and the like. To me, there's nothing complimentary about valuing someone more because she is "more 'attractive.'" It's actually really disgusting to me that people choose to alter their behavior toward others based on whether or not those others are physically pleasing in appearance.)

[VelmaD]

1. I know exactly what you are talking about...

Up until about 3.5 years ago I was obese...weighed up close to 300 pounds. I made a resolution to lose weight and have dropped to about half the size I used to be. It's stunning how much nicer people in general are to me at a size 8 than they were at a size 22. They smile at me. I exist where I seemed so often to be invisible before.

Basically...people suck. They're shallow and don't bother to look any deeper than outside appearances. *sigh*

[WildClarySage]

4. I've noticed that since I'm now "obviously" pregnant,

people are so much nicer to me than before when I was simply fat. Though I am also a very bountiful woman, now that people see the pregnant belly before the fat woman surrounding it, they're much more courteous, generous and talkative.

[efhmc]

2. Here's my take.

I think that often people have problems looking at and connecting with people who look different or less than the "norm". They won't look you in the eye when they speak or they avoid you all together (using the vernacular you and not the personal you here). However, often once they can get past that point and connect, things run smoother. Perhaps they are just getting to that connection point faster. Since I am small and cute, (cute is a four letter word for less than a grown-up)or so I have been told about a million times in my life, I have usually do not have problems connecting with people but I often have problems being taken seriously. I am glad to hear that life is treating you a bit nicer. I am sorry to say this since you ask that we not but... I would not over analyze the situation but would just keeping reflecting that positive flow of energy back into the world, expecting nothing but enjoying it when it flows back your direction.

[BlueIris]

3. I wasn't "over analyzing."

Thanks for making assumptions, generalizing and being disrespectful about my post. I'm not just going to "expect nothing" or enjoy it because in my opinion, it's based on vile, superficial, sexist judgments about what's beautiful and what isn't.

"I think that often people have problems looking at and connecting with people who look different or less than the 'norm.'"

Yeah...which is pretty offensive considering how rare that conventional beauty media tells us is the "norm" truly is. It's unacceptable to treat people differently because they don't conform to this standard. That's not something women--or anyone, really--should just kick back "enjoying"--it's something to be incensed about.

I'm not sure why you would respond to my post or post in this forum if you have these beliefs, but good luck around here. My advice: go check out the group rules about respect we all agree to adhere to before we post in the feminist forum.

[efhmc]

5. I deserve everything you said. I really did sound condescending and

flippant. Wish I had given it more thought. I personally am a person who values all people. I am a blinders kind of person. Character and kindness are what matter to me and I rarely even think about a person's looks so am usually astounded when people make disparaging remarks about those I like. I was trying to guage this from "society's" point of view. I really did not mean to be unkind and I am truly sorry. What I meant by the "over analyzing" remark is that rarely but sometimes kindness, just like evil happens, and I try to enjoy it when it does.

[cally]

6. I've noticed the same thing recently

I've lost weight and my lifelong acne has gotten much better. Folks are just nicer to me now. We live in a shallow society. I'm just focusing on making sure I'm not doing the same thing to others.

I also notice changes since I'm older (47). It seems that folks treat me differently. It seems that I'm taken more seriously than when I was young. :shrug:

[spooky3]

15. but unfortunately, I find that younger people in particular

tend to treat me worse as I get older. Some of them seem to assume that they've achieved something of which people my age are automatically envious. I have to admit I stupidly probably did exactly the same thing at that age, and may do it to people older than myself. i can't control others, but I'm working on improving this and other biased behavior in myself.

[geniph]

7. I have a somewhat odd speculation about that

I wonder if some of people's reaction to a person with "problem" skin, bad teeth, who's overweight, etc., isn't basically a result of unconscious assumptions about health? I mean, think about it - many illnesses start out with a visible skin rash, so we'd have a genetic predisposition to keep away from people who looked unwell. Many people seem to have some sort of assumption that there's something "wrong" with a person that's heavy, for instance.

You can see people reacting in that way even to someone in a wheelchair, or who's hard of hearing - things that are clearly non-infectious. People seem to have a sort of subconscious aversion to being close to anyone different, as if they're afraid it's contagious. Some people even react that way to the aged. I think very few people are aware they're doing it. Perhaps if we talked about it more, as you're doing here, we'd make people more aware of what they were doing and how harmful it can be.

I've seen this with men, too, not just with women, although like anything having to do with appearance, people ALWAYS judge a woman more critically. I don't understand why that is, but it does seem to be the case. Until people are aware of their own subconscious reactions, they can't learn to react in a more sensible fashion.

I guess all I'm saying is it's the "pink monkey" syndrome. We're basically tribal creatures, xenophobic, with an inherent suspicion of those who appear different. It takes more work to overcome that than it does to simply give in to those assumptions, whether they're inherent or culturally programmed. Certainly it can't be overcome if people aren't aware of it.

[Hello_Kitty]

11. So why the admiration for extremely thin women?

If it were all about an underlying instinct to be attracted to health, then the plump should enjoy the advantage since that would be a sign of being well nourished and healthy. Emaciated models and actresses should be repugnant to people, as that level of thinness often accompanies infectious wasting diseases. But instead, they are viewed as the epitome of hotness and many women aspire to that appearance.

I think it has more to do with economics. If you've got money you can have nice teeth, clear skin, and you have the access to nutritious food and opportunities to exercise that the poor don't.

[geniph]

13. Interesting. You have a point there.

Up until the last century, certainly a plump woman was more highly valued than a thin one. It's only been since the 1920s - and much, much worse since the 1970s - that thin women have been prized.

[eridani]

18. There are many similar reversals, all having to do with social class

100 years ago, white bread was an expensive luxury, and whole grain cheap. Now it's white bread that's poor peoples' food, and whole grain much more expensive.

Being tan used to be associated with hard outdoor labor and no leisure. Now tan means leisure and pale means working in offices and factories and not having liesure.

[spooky3]

16. I agree. A long time ago an associate and I did a lab study about

attractiveness. In the pretesting phase we asked students to evaluate yearbook pictures on a long list of dimensions. We were surprised to find there was an extremely high correlation (.70) between perceived physical attractiveness and perceived socioeconomic status.

(see also my post below for more anecdotal evidence)

[ismnotwasm]

8. I understand

I have a mild androgen imbalance and have lived with adult acne. I learned to control it years ago. BUT:
I stay in shape, and build muscle easily--call it a fringe benefit. I'll take a few zits, for decent metabolism and the muscle mass to maintain bone density as I age. Ok the point;
Sometimes I'll lost weight--too much weight, as my Army sargent daughter who is also a personal trainer will pointedly, point out. During this time of being too thin, I get far too many complements, from women. (you're so thin! How do you do it!) Right now, I'm in good shape -have put on a few pounds, but I look more "Buff" because of a thicker layer of fat over muscle. I'm NOT a body builder, nor am I a large women. I still get complements, but not that damn near in awe shit I was getting from women

Men either like muscular women or they don't, I'm 45 but haven't reached that middle age part where I become 'invisible' I still get looks and attention. I worry less about their reaction (actually could give a shit less at this point in my life) then I do the women's. That body dysmorphic admiration of "thinness." It's very sad.
And very annoying. And very telling about the values in our society.

[undergroundpanther]

9. Interesting...

I found when I was thin I got harassed. It was frightening,the hoots,the threats of rape..and the sheer bullying EVILness of the reactions to beauty made me desire to not be"pretty".. After an attepted rape(the guy was injured badly(in the groin ogf course and was left in a fetal position with two teeth on the ground by his head.. and his buddy ran away rather than try me, So I used one of his knocked out teeth as a "connection" to curse this bastard to death)..After that incident I gained weight in a very rapid way, there was no changes in my diet I was not in control of my food prep because the place I was staying you ate communal meals.It was very strange ..I went up two pants sizes in a WEEK!

And the threats stopped. No more guys fondling themselves on the bus,the mall or wherever letching. In fact it was a relief.

Anyways men tend to not know what to do when you look bigger stronger and more intimidating than they do.If your gender is indeterminate it turns into a round of guess the gender..and if they decide on female they can get harassing,orr insulting because they feel intimidated until you act in the male way to these dogs and bruise thier ego or thier face..Than they back down,but still are drawn to you because they gotr that conquest mentality.

I find it is very digfficult to navigate as a human being in this shallow sexually overcharged domination based appearance driven culture such as ours.

And when I wear my feline stuff my tail and all and show my stripes,and I dress in my punky wild style,I find in my town there is a papparazi, people out of the blue take my picture,cars full of teens hang out the window with a phone camera,I am approached by awkward fascinated customers who want my picture, Since I look very freaky I find the response to my extereme difference in my appearance is safe compared to the curse of beauty and the awkwardness of overweight based appearance hypocraisy.When you look as freaky as I do people tend to be fascinated ,yet intimidated so they dare not be rude to your face, because the curiosity keeps thier defenses in check,and they approach me in either a hostile indifference or in a freindly manner because they are both curious and scared or fascinated..There is very little ambivalence in how people take me and I like it this way..
In the past the encounters were hostile because I was scapegoated by the town bullies who knew me already and had thier silly predjudies built against me already because of thier insecurities and thier knowing of who I am.
Fortunately most encounters I get these days in public are freindly.The supermarket,a restaurant.I am seen as something way different so defying of social categories so when I am freindly back to the curious it is taken well. They ask the same sorts of questions like..,why are you wearing a tail,why all the tattoos? And I give them the same answers along the lines of because I like it and I can..
The hostile stuff most often happens where people are drinking,it's a charged environment,rowdy or the person has a posse and wants to puff himself up at my expense,(which they tend to say the same old thing..what you think it's halloween? ) A smartass retort on my part usually humiliates the uncreative insecure jackass to silence as thier buddies giggle at my crack back at him...And since I don't go to bars often(the band has to be really good)..so..I have found a way to feel safe in this horrifically unsafe and evilly apprance based discriminating culture of ours.By simply being the genderless cat person I always was. But I know exterme body mod ain't everyones path.
So for very human flaws I find opur culture is so very pathetic and insecurity eats people alive because of the sick quest for normal appearance and"beauty" that is really very sad and alienating to anyone seeking a relationship on a human level..

[Hello_Kitty]

10. I know what you mean

My weight fluctuates frequently between about 135 to 170 lbs. It's not a huge amount, but enough for me to notice a definite difference in the way I'm treated by people at either end of the spectrum. It's not that I'm treated badly when I'm heavier, just that I'm treated so much better when I'm smaller. It's astonishing, really. Like you've experienced, salesclerks are more solicitous, men are more flirtacious, people in general notice me more and show me more consideration and respect.

I think it sucks. I really do. And yes, I'm probably guilty of it as well, though I try not to treat people differently based upon their appearance. And it just makes me so much more pissed when guys bemoan that we women are so insecure about our looks. As if we conjured it up in our own minds! :grr:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

12. Consider this -

You might be beaming in a whole different way, and, thus, drawing towards you different kinds of people with different kinds of messages.

It might be that you're looking in the wrong direction - at them - instead of looking in the other direction - at you. A lot of times, I firmly believe, we cause the changes in others' behavior that we then - if we're not comfortable with the changes - attribute to them, when they're simply reacting to what we did, our own changes.

I knew someone who suffered a lot of facial injuries in a climbing accident in Aspen many years ago. She underwent a series of surgeries to put her face back together - for the whole time, she never went near a mirror, at her surgeons' suggestion.

When the final surgery was performed - oddly enough, it involved straightening her nose, lining up all that rearranged cartilage - everyone left her alone in her hospital room, and she went into the bathroom, and turned on the light.

It lasted only an instant, but she never forgot it, and the lessons she drew from what happened in that instant stayed with her all her life.

The light bounced off her face differently.

That's what she saw, and that fast, it was gone. Never again did she witness something so subtle, almost invisible, because, that quickly, her brain reset itself to what was now normal. If we were to see the actual light reflections on everything in our world, we'd go mad, I think. So, the brain accommodated the new angles and curves of her face, and that was the end of the story.

Yet, she still looked pretty much the same as she had before the fall. Inside, though, she was different.

So, there's a big, long story to tell you that maybe your light is bouncing off people in different ways.

If they annoy you, let me know, and I'll arrange something for them. <wink>

[BlueIris]

17. That's interesting.

It never occurred to me that it could be something other than the change in my appearance, because I don't perceive anything else about myself to have changed. I can't even claim that the improvement in my skin tone has made me feel better--at least emotionally (because, as I posted above, it really didn't bother me that much). I am however, slightly satisfied that I have figured out, at least for the time being, how to have better looking skin. It's an intellectual achievement, if nothing else. So perhaps I was in a subtly better mood because of that, and people were reacting to the positivity.

[spooky3]

14. the only parallels I've experienced were

1) when I was extremely thin (< 18 BMI) I got compliments on how great I looked, but I don't think very many people treated me any better/worse than at average weight.

2) when I was married and wore a ring, some women treated me a lot better, especially when I shopped.

This isn't based on looks but on status: I have a (fairly) high status profession that I don't mention when first meeting people (socially, commercially, or in other venues). I would say that a significant minority of people who happen to find out later treat me better than they did previously.

I meant to say: yes, I think you are right and that there are other examples of this. About the only good thing about it is that you've now discovered you have some control over some of these people if you choose to exercise it. But that doesn't address the bigger issue you identified. I don't know what can be done about it.

[funflower]

19. As I get older, I get more "invisible." Men in particular don't even seem

to see me at times. When I was younger, most men were quite solicitous and friendly (sometimes overly so).

This certainly is a feminist issue, as women are valued based on their appearance to a much larger degree than are men.

[Love Bug]

20. Oh, honey, there is no one more invisible than a woman who is

overweight and over 40! Men haven't seen me for years!

[funflower]

21. I don't know why it surprised me. Guess I should have expected it.

Silly me.

[bobbieinok]

22. my mother was in Europe with my dad who had a Fullbright teaching

fellowship

she was in her 50s at the time........she said she got much more notice at her age in Europe than she did in the US; she really enjoyed it