Your opinions, please?

[benburch]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5305731&mesg_id=5305731

[BlueIris]

1. Despite my support for this idea, I'm going to spend a couple weeks...

documenting how many people still use this misogynist slur on this site to express misogynist viewpoints in a profoundly disgusting, disruptive way--not just in the "no big deal" "not trying to 'make trouble'" way some feel this term is "only" being used now. After that, if my concerns are still not seen as valid by...anyone and especially those still using the word 'bitch,' well...I'll Ignore for my own sanity, I guess. At this point, I have 100+ users on my Ignore list. I wonder how many this plan will add to it?

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nikia]

3. I have added my response

That is a good idea.

[politicat]

4. It's not a bad idea, but I have a nasty suspicion that I'll end up with a

big ignore list.

We have a bit of echo chambering going on as it is.

[ismnotwasm]

5. I just looked at that

Since I come from a place where "motherfucker" was in nearly every sentence,(as well as other choice expressions)"Bitch" wasn't far behind-- I had to stop and take a look at my own language patterns. I've far away from that place now, I still curse like a what do we say now-- sailor still? When I get angry.
I found I don't say bitch very often. I've always found it objectionable when it's directed towards women specifically. (It was actually good for a throw down fight at one time in my life)
I saw an extemely offensive lounge post the other night using that word, in fact, I wasn't sure what the point was--
When you come from a world where cursing is a free-for-all, and no-one thinks twice about it, then you get a little education, you find yourself with a volcabulary-- well sometimes I don't get it. Why bother with a word with such a wretched meaning for females?

I know all the words, in all the combinations, and while I don't agree with censorship, I already ignore men calling women such names. I've never put anybody on ignore but I guess I agree with you in theory. I think BlueIris said she's going to watch for a couple of weeks. I think that's a good idea. Your thread should bring out all kinds of silly little rebellious behavior (waah! I can say bitch if I want too!)So It will be interesting to see the mysogyny rear it's ugly head. Very sad on a progressive board, but interesting.

[bloom]

7. "silly little rebellious behavior"

I don't know if it's related to this or not - but soon after I noticed this discussion, I was reading a GD thread where I noticed calling women that the people didn't agree with "sluts" or "whores" seemed all of a sudden common.

[ismnotwasm]

10. It wouldn't suprise me one bit

The need to hang on to those words...There are some, I know, who grew up with that language just as part of them, and can't seem to understand the power of words. My husband is one of them, he grew up poor and ignorant, and to his benefit, (and a little help from friends) he learned. He has a very good Native American friend, many years ago when they met, my husband was still using the "N" word in reference to black people. The Native guy told him he hated white people. This started a conversation--it put them both on the path to realize the destructive nature of racism. That was over 20 years ago

My husband, when driving, would call out names to other drivers who pissed him off--like "fat bitch" He's no adonis himself. But we had a conversation, actually more one. We talked about the destructive nature of referring to women specifically--- to how they looked or their gender. It was hard for him because it was an ingrained habit, part of himself since childhood. But he understands, and usually is pretty good (slips up now and again, but then, so do I.)

So if someone like my husband, who grew up in housing projects with a racist, developly delayed mother (he got away with murder) can learn, there is no reason why other men can't understand and learn. The message that these words damage and hide covert, institutional sexism is NOT a difficult one, has nothing to do with free speech or the term I despise the most-- "The political correct" It damages everyone.

[femrap]

6. Well, thank you very much....I went over there and just

posted up a storm. Best time I have had all day. I, in particular, liked my final post. This is a great place to raise consciousness! And I just love to educate.

Hell....we'll probably take over the world in a very short time.

Thank you for starting the thread, Ben. You must be a kind and wise man.

I just discovered this Feminist Group....YIPPEE.

[geniph]

8. God, do the posters in that thread really not understand the difference

between, say, calling a woman a "bitch" and calling a man a "prick"? Or calling a man a "bitch"? They do not GET IT. An insult directed at a woman specifically for being assertive? An insult directed toward a man implying that he is assuming a feminine role? How fucking DUMB do you have to be to not get the point?

Until women have full equality (don't hold your breath), then calling a man anything that implies he takes a feminine role is OFFENSIVE. Until women have full equality, having specific insults for a woman who is not submissive is OFFENSIVE.

Anyone who resorts to calling a woman a bitch has just lost the argument, right there - because the tactic is, "I cannot argue my own points, so I shall make an ad hominem attack on you based on the fact that you are a female who is not behaving properly."

Do they truly not get that?!

[bloom]

9. What I don't get

is how the words "slut" and "whore" continue to be negative words for people who are supposedly free-minded and who would supposedly like women to be unrestrained. :shrug:

(There are over 125 DU pages with whore used mostly in a derogatory manner.)

A Philippine article I linked to in a rape case with Marines mentioned:

"...Perhaps that is the impression Tiffany has of Filipino women, an image that will be more widespread when the new Adam Sandler produced movie, Grandma’s Boy, appears in movie theatres this Christmas. In one scene, shown in the trailer to current movies, the title character says he spent the night with “three Filipino whores.”

Manila newspapers do not use the word “prostitute” or “whore,” preferring “sex worker” instead, a sign of political maturity and respect for the women who rely on the money from their sex labor to put food on the table for themselves and their families."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5369668

http://www.philippinenews.com/news/view_article.html?article_id=add3c3378e95b4ae4b2131fb6cf153ce

-----

I think the words should be used in a positive fashion or not at all. Interesting that people in the Philippines see it as "a sign of political maturity" to not use the words.

[ismnotwasm]

12. A Filipina I work with just told me about those rapes

She keeps me updated on politics in the Philipines. She was under the impression it hadn't been reported in the media here. (I haven't seen anything) She was pissed that the first thing they said about this women is that she was a sex worker. She said it turned out the young women came from a middle class "good" family, and was NOT a sex worker-- And even if she was , so what? Rape is rape. Some of those she knows in the Philipines said "She shouldn't have been there in the first place, it's her fault" I told her I was going to write to the American Embassy.

I missed your thread, I've been working a lot, but I will be happy to tell her that some of us are paying attention.
http://allirense.com/writingsexist.html
The power of words..

[OldLeftieLawyer]

11. I don't limit my use

of the word 'bitch' to assertive women, since I'm a woman who's often been called 'assertive".

It's a word I use for anyone who behaves badly, meanly, in a negative or grouchy manner, regardless of their gender. As in "Quit yer bitchin'".

If you use the word in an argument, that's your matter. I don't argue with people in that manner, since namecalling isn't part of what I (or they) do.

Maybe people would do better to pick their opponents more carefully, along with their fights? If I were having an exchange with someone who called me any kind of epithet, that would be the end of the exchange for me.

As I've said, I don't hold with censorship of any words anywhere. Never have, never will. I believe free speech is free, absolutely.

It's up to me to use the words, and it's up to others to read them or not, as they choose. Since I write for a living, that's a great big responsibility on my part, and on the part of my readers.

[geniph]

13. My objection to the word is that it's used

to keep women "in their place." When they were about 15 or so, my stepsons picked it up from their friends, calling women and girls who disagreed with them or who weren't pleasant to them "bitches." I started calling them on it, asking them why that particular girl was a "bitch." Over half the time, the reason boiled down to a girl who didn't treat them with deference and admiration. THAT's my objection. I don't object to saying someone is "bitching" about something, although I prefer to use more gender-neutral terms like "whining" or "complaining." I do object to the use of the term "bitchy" when what the person means is "crabby" or "difficult."

I'm not asking people to censor their use of the language. I'm asking them to think about what, exactly, the use of a GENDER-SPECIFIC insult means in a larger context to a still-discriminated-against population. A gender-specific insult that is also specific to those who are "uppity" or "too big for their britches" or otherwise not conforming to an idealized feminine stereotype. In nearly every case, you can just as easily substitute the term "jerk" with far less offense.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

14. Yep, had that with my boys, too

They learned a whole lot from their first use of that word in their mother's presence. I'm sure they continued to use it, but never around me, and certainly they do not use it today.

That's part of being a parent, I think, making sure the kids know the power of words.

I've been called far worse than "bitch" right here on this forum, and by women, no less. They just used a lot of simpler words to try to achieve that same result. And, when I didn't see those posts, I got PMs from men - how's that for irony? - who didn't hold with what the women were doing.

As I said, there are words, and they all must be free.

[Kipepeo]

15. I LOVE the people who say

I have bigger and better things to worry about!!!!!

Well then, it won't be so hard for you to oblige a simple request from an equal then will it?