Plastic surgery - WHY?

[Ayesha]

I'm an intern at a support organization for people with cancer, and one of the staff members had a facelift last week. This apparently required FIVE HOURS of plastic surgery! I was shocked when I heard she was getting it done, as she's a therapist, and frankly didn't seem like the type. Yes, this is LA, but honestly, she's an average-looking, casual-dressing woman who wears little to no make-up and seems pretty natural. Not only that, she spends her days hearing about the horrible surgeries people with cancer have to undergo; why she'd choose to do this is beyond my comprehension.

In staff meeting this week, a get well card was circulated, and part of me didn't want to sign it. I'm REALLY not looking forward to when she comes back to work, because we'll have to hear all about it and be expected to feel sympathetic for all the suffering she went through. And you know what, I don't. It was her choice to go through it, and if the doctors screwed up and she ends up looking like Michael Jackson or half her face falls off, I'm not going to feel sorry for her.

I admit there are times I feel tempted to get liposuction done, as I gained a lot of weight recently and it's actually making it harder for me to move around and do things (I'm disabled). But to me it's just not worth the risk or the pain, and I'd feel like I was selling out my feminist beliefs.

How do you handle it when a woman you know does something like this? How do we reverse the trend of women's self hate and the extreme things they do because of it?

[ismnotwasm]

1. Well it's fear

I like what femrap has been saying about "The taming of women" to me, it doesn't apply just to those who get married and "settle down"

It also about not feeling good about your body, your face. your entire being because of patriartical imposed standards. Many Women particpiate in encouraging those standards, They are "tamed" The give in. The so called "youth culture" affects women far more than men. Part of me is glad that women are able to express their sexual selves into middle age and beyond (as opposed to dying in childbirth in your 30's as it used to be) but not in THIS way. If someone is vain enough, and I admit to vainity, I suppose some of the stuff we do to "look good" in context of what society says looks good is ok, I don't judge too much. But a face life? Ugh. prolonged dangerous surgery that doesn't always work very well. There are options, and the best one that works far better than creams and lotions and botox is to love the body within, and it will shine through. Even somethings as accessable as yoga teaches, and reaches, this. There are professions where this type of surgery is a method of survival, unfortunetly.

One of my favorite books, (which admittedly is hard to slog through) is "Women who run with the Wolves Myths and stories of the Wild Women archtype" By Clarissa Pinkola Estes. There is a chapter that I read regualarly called "Joyous Body: The Wild Flesh". I leave you with a couple of paragraphs:

"To confine to beauty and value of the body to anything less than this magnificence is to force the body to live without it's rightful spirit, it's rightful form, its right to exultation. To be though ugly or unacceptable because one's beauty is outside the current fashion is deeply wounding to the natural joy that belongs to the wild nature

Women have good reason to refute psychological and physical stadards that are injurious to spirit and which sever relation ship with the wild soul. It is clear that the instinctive nature of women values body and spirit far more for their ability to be vital, responsive and enduring that by any measure of appearance. This is not to dismiss who or what is considered beautiful by any segment of culture, but to draw a lorger circle that embraces all forms of beauty, form and function."
There is also a chapter I enjoy called "Battle Scars: Membership in the Scar Clan" that addresses joy, pride and acceptance in imperfection.

How do I handle it? As graciously as possibly. I have never been close to anyone who has had such surgury,(other than my sister who is so deeply damaged it's far too long a story) but If I was, we would talk. Definetly.

[politicat]

2. It's not my business to criticize another woman's choice.

For me, cosmetic surgery is a choice. If feminism is about women deciding for themselves, individually, what we will or won't do with our bodies, then it doesn't just stop at our uteri. If it's not okay to force a woman to bear a child she doesn't want or prevent her from bearing one she does want, then it's not okay to make judgments about the other choices she makes concerning her physical and spiritual being. If one doesn't like the fact that I prefer my head hair long and my other hair short/shaved/waxed/etc, one won't be invited into my bed, but no one has the right to have a governing opinion - or even a consulting one - about my body. Because if we say that the only place that choice matters is in reproductive rights, we are objectifying women as much as any airbrusher for Cosmo or Playboy. We are saying that her sense of self-governance begins and ends with her reproductive organs. I won't buy that. That's not what my feminism is about.

Not that my opinion doesn't have a mote of self-interest in it. In my case, if/when I can get my insurance to cover it or we have a spare $6000 that isn't in retirement money, I will have breast reductions. I'm 5'4" and wear a 34D/34DD... and I have a small waist. My back hurts most of the time, I have a hell of a time standing up straight and finding bras that fit is nearly impossible - and I cannot possibly go without one. My boobs get in the way of almost everything - I have to wear nastily heavy sports bras to exercise, I cannot run, I have to wear a lace-up flattener to effectively draw my bow, I can't get under a car to work on it without it being on jackstands or ramps.... Moving past people in crowds is an inadvertent opportunity for groping/molesting, sleeping on my front is like sleeping with a pillow shoved under my chest.... If I choose to have a child, the size would probably inhibit breastfeeding, as excessively large breasts make it difficult for baby to breathe while eating. So I'd have to pump, and I don't want to be a hooked up to a machine to feed my kid like a double-damned dairy cow.

Yet reduction is probably a cosmetic procedure in most people's minds. My breasts are not making me sick, they are not *really* harming me - if I was willing to bulk up the muscles underneath my breasts (and make them appear even BIGGER....) I would not have quite so many of the physical problems, though there would still be some. But I have enough issues with being objectified as it is - I really don't want to have to start wearing a button that says "My eyes are up about a foot, ASSHOLE."

A face lift is not my thing, nor is botox, a nose job or liposuction. But if a woman has earned the money to pay for such a thing and she wants to indulge herself, then that's her business. Her reasons are not mine. How is it qualitatively different than spending the money on some other self-beautification practice like a tattoo, a piercing or hair dye? How is it different than buying clothes that are not only practical, but also attractive to one's own eyes? My purple hair and cute new glasses (the latter necessary, as the frames on the old ones gave up the ghost at the same time the lenses needed to be changed) are not tools of the patriarchy - I chose them for my own pleasure and delight, not for the perceived attractiveness they will give me on the man-market. I don't think it's at all about self-hate - it's about self-pleasure. Sure, I could have donated the cost of the frames and the cost of my dye to some worthy charity; I could have used it to fund some subversive act of feminism, I could have socked it away in a gold coin and instead got the cheapest, most utilitarian frames available and not played with my hair. But the thing is - it's my money. I earn it. I get to spend it the way I choose. (And we put a lot of money into worthy causes....)

One of the things feminism fought for and continues to fight for is the right to self-determination. We may not agree with the woman who enters into a Submissive relationship with a man, or who gets a nose job or chooses to have her seventh child, but it is her right to choose to do these things. She also has the right to leave someone who would force her into a lifestyle that she doesn't want, to abort an unwanted child, or to have any elective surgery she wants from wart removal to a tubal to a boob job as long as it's her cash. Or to be a photographer's model, a dancer or a porn star. The lives they are living are their own, not mine. I have friends who make a living out of bilking ignorant men out of their hard-earned cash... they're strippers, and they're well aware of the choice they are making (work 10 hours a week for what they could earn working 60 hours at a McJob, and have a life in the other hours) and the objectification of the men they are using (their words, not mine) to make that living.

If a colleague of mine had a surgery like this, the note on her card would read, "Hope you're feeling better soon," and a signature. Because when feminists have won all the wars we need to fight to determine our own paths, and we are down to nothing but criticizing the individual decisions of others that affect no one else, then we're done! We've won! For me, this is not a fight I think is important when women are fighting for the right to work for the same pay as a man, walk without fear of rape, get equal access to drug and education programs in prison, keep their children when they're impoverished, keep their jobs when their children are sick.... We have real battles out there. We don't need to make them up.

[ismnotwasm]

6. While I agree that it's a choice

And one increasing numbers of men are making as well, (I just remembered My husbands then 77 year old uncle had a face lift. --He flat out said he didn't like the way he looked, or the way he was aging-- he had been an extremely handsome man in his youth. I stayed with him post-surgery because you need someone with you the first 24 hours)I also agree it's basicly not my business. BUT If I was close enough to someone who was considering this kind of surgery, I would want to know the motivation.

I like the art of self decoration, of personal style, of feeling good inside and having it reflect on your outsides.

I just don't like manipulative, imposed beauty standards especially for women. We've suffered from that shit long enough. Many cosmetic surgeries seem to be aimed at pleasing men, not the women getting the surgury.

Perhaps this women, felt her life would improve in all areas--career, love life etc. I've read testimonies of women who have stated such surgeries have changed their lives, and they couldn't be happier. And they'd do it again in a hearbeat. But I've also read about women (my sister I mentioned is one of them) who were very disapointed in the results. The results may have been fine, it was the expectations that how they felt about themselves would change. It doesn't work for everybody.

I'm glad dancers have developed some self determination,(I used to dance, and trust me, it hasn't always been and in many places still isn't a place where women are in control) I remember seeing an attempt to unionize exotic dancers documentery, and feeling so impressed. I was sorry it didn't work out. One of the dancers I know just rolled her eyes when I mentioned it to her
What I look at is the difference between men exotic dancers and the response of women, and females dancers, and the response of many men. It's very telling.(Some men love "the girls" and are very protective of their favorites-- they'll show up night after night, inquire how they're doing,try to help them with personal problems and seem to care very much. The women, depending on their personal life philosophy will either use these men, or form a type of platonic relationship with them, sometimes almost a surrogate father/brother)

BTW, I have a friend who had breast reduction surgery, she is a very tall, large women who had EXTREMELY enormous breasts. She said at night in bed if her husband rolled over he would roll on them. She was miserable with back pain, clothes that didn't fit, the whole nine yards.
She is happy as a clam. She was so excited she showed me her new breasts, (which are beautiful) She doesn't need to wear a bra if she doesn't want to, for support. So I'm sending good vibes your way, and hope you get to have your surgery as soon as you are able!

[bleedingheart]

9. I can empathize with you

my half sister has large breasts, when I was a young girl and praying that I too would have large breasts (cuz that is what teen gals do...) I had an experience that changed my opinion. I went shopping with my sister for clothes...she needed a blouse for an interview and I will never forget her trying on blouse after blouse after blouse....and finally she was just sobbing...the blouses were either too tight, to low cut or just not made for gals with larger breasts....I then realized it wasn't the "dream" I had thought it would be. Today she has back troubles due to it and decided long ago not to get surgery....but I wonder if she may not change her mind in the future...

[Katherine Brengle]

14. one quick note--

just a note on the breastfeeding issue--while breast augmentation surgery does not typically impede breastfeeding ability, reductions generally do.

not a reason not to do it, just an info tidbit.

my cousin had this done because she had terrible back pain and she feels great now--and she actually looks better too, which i'm sure is nice for her. :)

[politicat]

17. Not really wanting to have kids.

I like the life I have, and after having been a step-mother for several years full time, I know now that I am a much better auntie and adult friend than I am a mommy. My partner had a vasectomy many years ago (it's his body and he doesn't want children) and I'm good with that. If we change our minds, there are kids to adopt.

Thanks for the information, though - since both of my sisters need to have the operation, too, I'll pass it on that they should have their second kids before they have the surgery. (Aren't genetics WUNNERFUL?)

[BlueIris]

3. Maybe one too many folks called her "average looking."

Encountering too many judgmental characterizations like that over a person's life can really wear down self-esteem, even if you have strong self-esteem to begin with. Sometimes, after decades of that, as happens to many women in this material, superficial, misogynist society, in a "down" period of time, a woman might decide surgery is worth the expense, risk of complications and pain, as long as it makes her feel marginally less unhappy, judged or threatened when someone expresses something unsupportive with regard to her looks. Sometimes, even I have thought, "well, I know I don't 'need' it, and I feel fine about my appearance, but maybe if it would just get those jerks to STFU..."

[atommom]

4. I know a couple of women who have had multiple cosmetic

surgeries, and both are saving up for more procedures. For some women, it really does become an obsession. It's their choice, of course, but I hate to see people putting themselves through all that pain and expense for results that usually aren't that apparent to a casual observer (with the obvious exception of giant boob implants). I suppose it's a natural outgrowth of our culture's message that the average woman just isn't good-looking enough. The problem is, once you internalize that message and start altering your body, when will it stop? Will it ever look good enough?

[bloom]

5. a year ago or so

there was an analogy I heard that compared our "makeover" in Iraq to the "makeover" obsession shows on TV. It made sense to me.

It's like the selling of a mindset. That "professionals" need to come in and redo things - money must be spent. In Iraq it's totally out of control, of course. But our culture is rather out of control, as well.

I liked the "Wild Women quotes.

I don't buy any restrictions such as that I cannot criticize our consumeristic, plastic society. I wouldn't criticize individuals and coworkers - but the culture at large that is indifferent to destroying the planet - yeah - I'll criticize it.


One's persons suggestions:

I think two main factors underlie our predicament:
1. Patriarchy, which must control and exploit by its very nature. Today the power centre is with the global corporations,with tentacles around the world.They are ripping the heart out of the planet.
2. By focusing solely on the material side of existence, the pursuit of wealth and consumption, society has become corrupted. Morality is swamped under the rising tide of greed and selfishness.

...

What is to be done?

We are living in a dying civilization. The evidence is all around.What sort of a society is it that brainwashes little children with consumer values, destroying innocence and true wonder? That presents mutilated freaks as the ideal of womanhood?I refer to matchstick thin models and celebrities with silicone breast implants.(See Wolf .) A society that must destroy everything that is beautiful, natural, wild and free? This is a civilization in its death throes: take a good look.

We have have to get down to basics, and really think about such questions as: what is a human being? What are truly human needs? What is the purpose of life? People who lack imagination, compassion and soul have too much power in this world, and they are pushing us all to the brink.

Everyone knows that our external world is being polluted.Our bodies and minds are being polluted also.It is part of the same process.To make true human progress, people must eliminate the toxins from their bodies: alcohol, nicotine,hard drugs,sedatives,junk food, etc.They must also remove the toxins from the mind, which are conveyed by the mass media.This means giving up television,movies,glossy magazines,commercial radio, most newspapers,videos,computer games, rock/pop culture,etc.Is this too hard, too drastic? Tough it may be, but it is necessary to clear the mind, to see our predicament as it really is.The mass media and culture we have today has one purpose: to exploit people rotten. Only people who have freed themselves from its clutches will be able to create new and worthwhile ways of living.

In the long run we need a society that is based on spiritual principles. We need to heal our ties with Nature, and live within Nature in a reverent manner.Nature should be our guide and touchstone.Real change for the better will take generations and many upheavals to occur. Some people are waking up now and thinking about basic change. Current values such as materialism, sexism and patriarchy are being questioned. An ecological awareness that promotes the welfare of all life forms is growing. We have to create new, life affirming values, and implement them.There is a need to expand awareness and question deeply. Life itself has the answers for us, but we have to be free of much accumulated garbage before we can see with clear new vision.

http://www.personal.usyd.edu.au/~apert/consume.html

The problem might be something that can be blamed on the "patriarchy" - but that doesn't mean we don't have choices to make.

[ismnotwasm]

7. It all boils down to the human condition doesn't it?

Feminist thought at it's best (to me) tries to understand the human condition, acknowleges the areas where we're wrong, were we fail, and where we can improve, with a few options on how to improve.
And that is one thing about living in a patriarchy, as women and men, we all are the participitants and the degree of change is related to the degree of involvement and desire for change. There is so much apathy, that it's almost a sickness in itself
Accepting social sickness and social disease is not something I do very well. (The negative "isms" racism, sexism, ageism--is actuallly where I get my user name from)
I've often thought that we are in the middle of what historians and anthropologists will call "a revolution" some time of great social change, some huge influence on the direction human kind is going to go, with a fancy name like other "revolution ages"

Perhaps "a dying culture" is much more accurate than "revolution"

(Maybe I better go read the about the fall of Roman empire-- bet it's got some great insights)

[bleedingheart]

8. It is her choice

Perhaps the fact that she works with cancer patients is the reason she has decided to do something that she might otherwise forgo? While it may be due in part to how she wants to be perceived, perhaps she has done it for herself?

People clip their nose hair, and their ear hair to be more socially acceptable. Men shave their backs, they shave their uni-brow to create two eyebrows and they wear cologne to attract the opposite sex.

Women get rid of unwanted facial hair because the world isn't really ready for the number of women who have a mustache...

I can't judge someone's decision to change their appearance, I will however hope that she recovers and does well and that she is happy with her results....

[Ayesha]

10. There's a huge difference

between shaving, plucking brows, etc. and undergoing a life-threatening, five hour surgery to look "good".

I didn't mean that I hope something bad happens to her, it just bothers me that I'm expected to be all supportive and approving when what I really want to say is WHY are you doing this to yourself, and encouraging her to love her body as it is and value the life experience that comes with aging.

[Hello_Kitty]

13. That's kinda what I'm thinking too.

She's surrounded by the grotesque reality of disease and decay. Cancer is horrific in its final stages. My beloved stepmother died from it. When I kissed her goodbye in 1988, they had to knock most of her remaining teeth out in order to intubate her. To see her like that, this vital and creative woman, was just so shocking and disturbing, I can't even describe it. I went on a strict diet and exercise regimen shortly after that, in what I now believe was an attempt to ward off the ravages of what had happened to her. Honestly, I think that maybe the woman described in the OP is trying to "look" healthy enough to avoid the fates of many of her patients.

[femrap]

11. I grew up in the '60's and came of age in the '70's so I was very

lucky to have had my consciousness raised....to get the idea out of my mind that a woman's importance to society is how she looks. I hated putting on make-up and spending time on curling/straightening hair. And I certainly didn't want a man around me that thought those things were important.

But as we age there is a huge amount of pressure to look young....a couple of weeks ago, I went to an Aveda School to have my hair cut...cheap cuts, but one is a guinea pig. I got a 'newbie.' She did a good job...but it took her TWO AND A HALF HOURS to cut it.....!!! I am sorry but having to sit in front of a mirror for TWO AND A HALF HOURS looking at yourself and listening to everyone talking about shallow things like 'looks.' Well....it was horrid. By the time I got out of there I didn't know what to do....lol. I did realize that my left eye is sagging as well as my chin. I now understand what people mean about 'panic attacks.'

But look at a picture of Ann Richardson, ex-governor of Texas....or old pictures of Bella Abzug with her hats....those women have character...all of their beuatiful lines and wrinkles! I heard Gloria Steinem say that people are always asking her friends if she has had 'work' done. One of them responded to the inquisitor, "Oh no, Gloria has never had work done....I saw her last week and she looked awful." lol.

I certainly hate to see women going into debt with these surgeries....and they do. Actually....I think there should be a tax write-off for plastic surgery! If patriarchy wants women w/o wrinkles, then ante up, boys. Hell, the boys get write-offs for drilling for oil...women deserve their write-offs as well. lol. What's the old saying? "I'd rather be pretty than smart....men see better than they think."

[Hello_Kitty]

15. A tax write off is in order for ALL our appearance efforts

And I'm serious as hell about it. It's a proven fact that a woman's appearance bears DIRECTLY on her finances and employment prospects, no matter what field she is in. You can choose to what level you will participate in various beauty regimens, up to and including surgery. You can choose to opt out of it entirely as well. But there are undeniable consequences when you do. Here's an example having to do with weight:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/05/28/womens_weight_found_to_affect_job_income/

This is why it aggravates the shit out of me when some dipwad opines that "You women are soooo vain." As if we just conjured up beauty standards by our own little selves.

Oh, and the other one I hate: "Women just do all that stuff for other women!" My ass we do. Like if all men were beamed off the planet today we'd still be shaving, plucking, starving, botoxing, and having doctors stick bags of goop in our chests. Like we'd have to worry about looking too old or fat to maintain our livelihoods. Yah right. :eyes:

[femrap]

16. Amen...or should I say Awomen!

Just today on the radio I heard that more men were having plastic surgery....and I said Yippee! I guess I would feel better about all of this pressure to look young and buff...if men felt the same pressure.

I am always amazed when a rather ugly, fat man starts making comments about a woman's looks....I ask him when was the last time he looked in a mirror!

And men seem to be wearing more clothes while women are wearing less....go to the beach...men are wearing damn culottes. Where are the Speedos? Tight jeans? I'm sick of it.

Remember when basketball players wore short pants...? I refuse to watch basketball anymore...hell, they're running around in pedal pushers.

[Warpy]

12. Like it or not, we're judged on our appearance, first

and if our appearnce isn't conventional enough, a lot of people don't investigate any father.

I felt the same way you did when an acquaintance of mine had a nose job some years ago. Yeah, her nose was on the large side, but I'd never really noticed it that much. In the months after her surgery, though, she blossomed and suddenly had the self confidence she should have had all along. For her, the surgery went very well.

I also know women who got fake tits and regretted it later because of all the men who couldn't tell them what color their eyes were. They'd wanted to be attractive, but what they were attracting was a big disappointnent.

It's a very individual thing, whether or not to exchange the years on your face for a more cookie cutter, Hollywood face. For some, it's a good thing; for others, it's a disappointment.

[spooky3]

18. and that's precisely why we should not judge people

for making their own decisions about this very personal issue. Certainly it's fine to make a judgment for oneself.