How do you view this case...?

[bliss_eternal]

the Mary Kay Letourneau situation? (I didn't place it in the subject heading to not attract negative attention of those from other areas of the board with an ignorant axe to grind).

Personally, it seems this woman was sick and needed help (bi-polar background, etc.) But I'm also troubled by some of the interviews with the young man where HE took responsibility for their sexual relationship. :crazy: As well as feedback from his mother that stated she didn't have ill will toward Mary Kay or felt she was in the wrong. :wtf:

This entire situation was so bizarre to me. Please share your thoughts... I can't even watch them on the news because the whole thing is so disturbing to me.

[cally]

1. I think she's sick and needs help

No adult should have sex with children. She hurt her other kids and damaged this young boy. I don't know how his mother can't hate her. Maybe that's part of what made the young man so vulnerable since he doesn't seem to have a protective mother.

[bliss_eternal]

5. The mother situation was weird...

...maybe she experienced some inappropriate behaviour in her lifetime, and because of it she doesn't understand healthy boundaries.

I've seen that sort of thing before, where a parent was abused physically or sexually, so they teach in turn seem to feel that children can have responsibility where the sexuality of adults is concerned.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

2. Even when I was 30 years old and teaching college students,

I would have found the idea of an affair with one of my students downright weird. There were some very bright, attractive, and personable young men among my students, but I never once thought of them as potential lovers. I always felt that they'd make nice nephews.

[bliss_eternal]

4. When I think of all the college professors

that seem to think it's "cool" to date young co-eds, I'm rather taken aback that more don't think the way you do. I sometimes wonder if male college teachers think it's part of their "right" somehow. I recall a few university administrators and male professors at my college that had no qualms about dating, sleeping with and coming on to young ladies regularly.

There was an administrator at my campus that manipulated my naivete' to his advantage :scared:. Thankfully for me, my intuition (and the fact that his comments were creeping me out) helped me. Things never progressed to the extent he apparently had in mind. I learned years later there were other young women that weren't as fortunate. :( :mad:

Like you, I would feel weird about such a thing if I was a college teacher.

[bliss_eternal]

3. What do you all think of the assertions

of the young man (and Mary Kay to a degree) that he seduced her?

Ultimately I would be inclined to think that as an adult she was responsible for taking charge of the situation, even if he did come on to her. She had to let him know it was inappropriate. Since she's never said it was an assault situation (where she was pinned down or forced), I don't really know how to feel about that. :shrug:

[lukasahero]

6. I'll admit to not knowing all the details of the case

but some things are black and white to me. One of those things is that the adult is always the responsible party. I don't care how "sexy" or "seductive" a kid is (just writing those words pretty much creeps me out), the adult is expected (IMO) to understand and enforce the boundaries. That goes for male and female adults equally.

Re: young people over the age of 18, the subject becomes grayer, but I do expect the older person to understand and consider the potential harm in pursuing that relationship. Of course, we all know that few do in that situation.

Full disclosure: my husband is 14 years older than I am. Even though we met when I was in my mid-30's, and therefore I don't find the situations comparable, he did actually give considerable thought to our involvement and what such an age difference would mean especially in regards as it would affect my life. Ah, the joys of grown-up, thoughtful and responsible men. (They do exist, they do exist. ;))

[bliss_eternal]

7. Hi lukaashero...

:hi: Good to see you!

I agree that adults must be responsible. I've always thought the "seductive kid" argument is a crock.

I guess this case was so weird for me, as it was the first time that I had heard of a female teacher sleeping with a male, underage student. Also, the fact that the kid TRIEDto assume responsibility and say that he initiated things confused the issue for many it seems. For me, even if he did "try" to initiate she should have said no and made sure to not spend time alone with him from then on, even transfering him to another class if necessary.

Maybe as a guy, he felt he needed to say he initiated so he could appear to be the one in control? :shrug: The whole thing is so weird.

I just wondered what people here thought. I recall some odd conversations about the situation after it was announced they had reunited after her jail time, and I think even married. :crazy: You know how the GD conversations can go as far as such issues are concerned. :eyes:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

10. As women gain more power, socially and economically....

You are going to see more of them behaving the way men traditionally have. Opportunism and an entitlement mentality are not necessarily gender based IMO. Some people do things because they can and no one, or no compelling reason, stops them. I'll never forget Bill Clinton's answer in an interview as to why he succumbed to Monica Lewinsky's charms. It was, "Because I could". That's it. For millenia, women couldn't, for the most part, give in to their base desires vis a vis young boys and men.

Now the dynamics have changed. There was an article in my local paper today about the 'cougar' phenomenon. That is, the increasing tendency of older, successful women to prefer younger men. It's definitely a noticeable trend in that direction and I applaud it in instances when you're talking about a 45 YO woman with a 28 YO man. But when she's 35 and he's 14, something has definitely gone awry there. I think the willingness of the young man to take responsibility for the situation is similar to the self-blame you see in young girls who are sexually exploited, with a pinch of old-school patriarchy mixed in to make it more palatable to him and others. But it's really the same crap in a different form. Person in power takes advantage of someone who is vulnerable. Yuck. :(

[Finder]

13. I don't think it is a phenomenon or anything new.

I do think there are more people trying to dictate morality in society through laws and the media.

[lukasahero]

15. Hi to you, bliss!

:hi:

Good to see you, too. Good to see all of you (been off the boards mostly as of late).

This case is, to me, the quintessential "coming of age" as a man story. I have real problems with all the guys who think it's just the cat's meow that they lost their virginity to an older woman. It's like some awesome score on their part. To me, it's abuse. Lots of women who are abused don't think they're victims either so I don't feel I have to take the word of the "non-victim" in this case.

I know this is the "Feminists Group" and all but sometimes I can't help but pity the damage we've done to our sons as well as our daughters.

I have to assume this woman is mentally and emotionally damaged. That does not mean I believe she is not responsible. I also have to wonder how damaged the young man is and what the hell is up with his family. Is the world we live in still so f*cked up that we think it's a mark of virility/masculinity for young men (boys, really) to "prove" themselves by "bagging" an older woman? Sometimes I can't help but weep for this world.

[bliss_eternal]

8. Information on the case (long)...

...from the crimelibrary.com

http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/psychology/marykay_letourneau/1.html

I needed to refresh my memory about it as well...

From link:

Steve knew that 34-year-old Mary Kay suspected, rightly, that he had been cheating on her. But he had no intention of giving up the extramarital affairs that gave him both solace and excitement.

On top of all that, Mary Kay always had an ex-student from her sixth grade class over at the house. It was summer and school was out. Why should that boy, 13-year-old Vili Fualaau, always be hanging around? It seemed like his wife wanted to informally adopt that kid.......

He and Mary Kay had four children of their own. Moreover, Steve was tired of Mary Kay constantly singing that Samoan-American boy's praises. Maybe he was a good artist for a kid his age but so what? That didn't make him a genius. Like most people, Steve thought Vili was a nice enough boy but he was just a boy, gangly, awkward, sometimes shy and other times self-consciously daring. Mary Kay did not seem to want to put her foot down around her former student the way an adult should. She even allowed him to smoke cigarettes in their house.

--------snip-------

Caught kissing in her van...

Vili felt a variety of strong emotions churning inside of him. Despite a 21-year age difference, he had long felt a great closeness to Mary Kay. Vili would later claim that he had started puberty at 10 so it is perhaps not shocking that he sexually fantasized about this woman who singled him out for praise and shared so many of her most intimate thoughts with him. For a long time he had believed, or at least hoped, that she shared his feelings. In a display of adolescent bravado, he had even bet a friend $20 that he "could sleep with the teach." Some reports say that Vili was a gang member who always carried a knife. He was eager to grow up.

As he comforted the weeping woman, holding her, he felt emboldened to go farther. He kissed her. To his joy, she returned the kiss. The two were embracing, touching each other intimately, and kissing deep and passionately.

:scared::puke:

Flashing lights interrupted the scene. A night watchman thought the parked car might be suspicious and called police.

"What is going on here?" an officer asked.

Mary Kay gave her full name and said she was a schoolteacher. She was watching Vili overnight because his mother worked a late shift. The boy appeared to be hiding under a sleeping bag.


"How old is the boy?" she was asked. "Eighteen," she replied.

The police were perplexed. According to a book on the case, If Loving You Is Wrong by Gregg Olsen, an officer "wondered if she was being held captive by the boy or perhaps he was being held against his will."

They prodded Vili. They could tell by looking at him that he could not be 18. He had neither a driver's license nor a state ID card.

"How old are you?"

"Fourteen," was the reply.

The police took the pair down to the station. Officers phoned Vili's mother, Soona Fualaau. The attractive, plump woman, who wore her black hair in waves cascading down her shoulders, told the police that she trusted Letourneau. "If he's with her," Soona said, "It's OK."

The two were free to leave.


A few days later, 34-year-old Mary Kay Letourneau and 13-year-old Vili Fualaau first had sexual intercourse. Vili would later claim they had sex some 300 to 400 times. The scandal would shock much of the country. No one would be more stunned than Mary Kay's friends and family. They had always seen her as a kind of "All American Girl" (a phrase that would become part of the title of a made-for-TV movie about the case). What they didn't know was Mary Kay was in some ways repeating a sordid chapter in her family history.

-----snip-----------

Her family background:

Soon after Mary Katherine's birth, her family began calling her "Mary Kay." John nicknamed her "Cake." No one else ever called her that. It was the special name from her Daddy. Cake was a daddy's girl, always closer to him than to her mother.

----snip-------
When Mary Kay was two years old, John began a political career. He ran for a seat in the state legislature. He was very conservative, as were most people in his district, and was a member of the John Birch Society.

----snip--------

The family continued to grow. Mary Kay's sister Terry was born in 1965. Her sister Elizabeth was born, then baby brother Philip. When Mary Kay was 7, she had a sexual encounter with one of her older brothers. She saw his penis, and he began fondling her. Later, Mary Kay would downplay the importance of these incidents. "I was not forced into anything," she recalled, "but when I decided it was wrong, I said no. And guess what? It stopped."

In 1970, John ran for a seat in the U.S. House of Representatives and won. The family moved to Washington, D. C. John sometimes took his lovely "Cake" to Congress with him and proudly showed off the well-behaved and bubbly young girl.

He was unabashedly homophobic. "They like to be called gays," he said. "I prefer to call them queers."

His wife was getting increasingly involved in conservative political causes. She campaigned against the Equal Rights Amendment and became known as the "West Coast Phyllis Schlafly." When the ERA went down to defeat, Mary put up a cardboard tombstone for it on her lawn.

----snip---------

First family tragedy...

On August 11, 1973, the family and some friends had a little get together in their backyard. Mary Kay, then 11, was supposed to be watching her 3-year-old brother Philip.

Suddenly Mary Kay asked, "Where's Philip?" and a panicked family began looking for the baby. They found him unconscious at the bottom of the pool. He was dead.

A police officer who was first on the scene would recall that Mary Schmitz kept repeating, "I only left him for a minute. Just a minute."

When asked about this tragedy, Mary Kay would say that it was just an accident and that "nobody" was blamed for Philip's death. Others close to her would say that Mary felt her parents blamed her.
---------snip--------

Here's the big incident that mirrored Mary Kay's....

On one Free For All, Mary Schmitz made an impassioned plea for the importance of marriage and the family on the program just a few weeks before a sex scandal involving her husband broke.



John Schmitz

It turned out that John Schmitz, champion of traditional morals and family values, had been having a longtime affair with a former student of his named Carla Stuckle. What's more, he had fathered two out-of-wedlock children with her.

----snip-------

The second family of John Schmitz became public knowledge because Carla was suspected of having abused or neglected her first child by John, a boy she had named John George.

Carla Stuckle, then 43, phoned her adult daughter from a previous marriage, Carla Larson, to tell her of some distressing news about John George, then an infant. Stuckle wept as she told her that the little boy's penis had been injured and would require surgery. "I took him to the doctor," Carla Stuckle sobbed. "He said the baby has a hair wrapped around his penis and it had been there for some time."

"Oh, my God!" Larson shouted. "Don't you ever bathe him? How could this have happened?"

"I don't know," said her mother.

Later, Stuckle called her daughter with more bad news. The surgery had gone well and John George would suffer no lasting damage. But Stuckle wasn't being allowed to take the baby home.

Bits of hair or other fibers often get trapped in babies' diapers and can cause infections and other ills. But at least one physician treating John George had become convinced that the boy had had a hair deliberately wrapped around the organ. He would recall it as being "tied in a square knot."

Child abuse investigators went to Stuckle's home. Still caring for her second child by Schmitz, a daughter named Eugenie, the woman appeared worn and frazzled. She had diabetes and worked long hours in two different jobs to support her youngsters in addition to caring for them. She answered all the questions that investigators put to her until they started asking about the children's father. She did not want to drag him into this.

"Until we find out and get this thing all done," a detective told her, "you're going to jail. Chances are you'll never see your son again. . . ."

"Well, it's John Schmitz," she said.

"John Schmitz," repeated the flabbergasted officer.

"John Schmitz, the state senator," she calmly stated.

Detectives thought the woman was almost certainly lying. Perhaps she wanted to make trouble for the outspokenly pro-family politician. Maybe she was deluded. But they had to check it out.

A detective took the politician aside at a John Birch Society meeting. "Well, is it your son?" the officer asked, after explaining why he was there.

"Yes, he is," Schmitz replied, "but I do not and will not support him financially. It is her responsibility to take care of him." He said he knew nothing of the hair on the boy's penis or how it happened.:wow:

Soon the second family of John Schmitz made headlines throughout the country. His political career was over. So was his wife's stint as a political commentator. However, their marriage survived. The couple separated for a period, then reconciled.

Investigators concluded there was not enough evidence to charge Stuckle with child abuse or neglect. John George was returned to her care. In 1994, Stuckle died from complications from the diabetes that had long ravaged her. John George was 13, his sister, 11. John Schmitz had no desire for custody of his two youngest children. The famous psychic Jeanne Dixon, who was a close friend of Mary Schmitz, took them in. When Dixon died in 1997, the children became wards of the state and went to an orphanage.

In the shadow of this scandal, Mary Kay took her father's side. She told friends of hers that her mother was a cold person and denied her father the affection he needed and deserved as a husband. When talking about it, she would comment, "She drove him to it."

She did not allow herself to become obsessed by the scandal swirling around her beloved father. She had her own life to live and she was enjoying it as a college student at Arizona State University. There she continued her party-animal ways.


Oh.My. Sadly, the apple didn't fall far from the tree. What a sick family... What's the deal with conservatives? Always some warped skeletons in their closets...:wow:

[ismnotwasm]

9. I read that back a while

Very damaged human beings. I don't think that Mary Kay will have a happy outcome in her relationship. I live in the neighborhood Vili grew up in (Yes, there are white people! That little inaccuracy was irritating. And "Rat city" did not get it's name from a rodent infestation. It had something to do with WW11) and my guess is that his Samoan background gives him strong family values, (I find the media rarely brought up his cultural background, not his race, but the actual culture he comes from. The probably were afraid of sounding racist) he personally is a thug. I hear little unsubstantiated rumors from this person or that.

The article seemed almost to pain Ms Letourneau as a victim, and perhaps to a point she was. Not to the point where she can be excuse for sexually abusing/raping a 13 year old boy. It was a classic case of grooming as far as I'm concerned. But the argument has been tossed around for many years now, she's out of prison and married to him, reconnected with her other children to some degree.

The story has always disgusted me. I do hope for the best for all concerned. If Vili was so promising, he has yet to fulfill that promise. The early sex/sexaul abuse, becoming a father at 14, the media extravaganza and everything else that went along with this situation may have destroyed that promise. I hope not.

[geniph]

43. Vili was arrested just a couple weeks ago

I think it was for drunk driving, but I didn't pay a whole lot of attention, just rolled my eyes and thought, what can you expect from a child abandoned to a molester?

[bliss_eternal]

44. I hadn't heard about his arrest..

Wonder why he drinks? :sarcasm:

[Finder]

14. The initial intimacy seems to have been when she was vulnerable...

and the boy took the opportunity--as most teens probably would. Most likely she cared for him in a platonic/maternal way prior to this. Emotional insecurity and lust can be powerful veils to common sense.

[CornField]

11. I agree there must be a mental anguish/illness there

Someone asked me if it made a difference that they were together now. That is, does it make the whole event more 'legitimate' somehow that even after all this time they still profess to love one another. IMO, it doesn't.

I have many people in my life that I love. I've also had several people that I loved/lusted. For those that I love, I would never want my actions to lead them down a miserable road. No matter what it was that I thought I needed or wanted, I would not place those things on top of consideration for the person. That's what true love is, isn't it? (Not only the ability to place ourselves second, but a true desire to do so in order to 'look out' for our loved ones.)

So, let's make the assumption that Mary Kay really did fall in love. Using my simple definition above, she would not have allowed the relationship to progress physically because she would have known it could only lead to trouble for him. As it stands, she is either mentally incapable of seeing the consequences of her actions and/or she's selfish. Either way, she was wrong and there is nothing that can be done to correct the mistake.

[Finder]

12. I think the case never should have been prosecuted...

and although I agree with having the laws on the books, I think all cases are not equal. Cases involving teen boys in particular are often victimless.IMO Each case should be evaluated on its own merit.

I doubt we have heard the end of the story yet.

I also think labeling this case as well as others involving teens as pedophilia is a big problem and says more about the accuser than the alleged crime.

[mzteris]

17. WHAT?

**Cases involving teen boys in particular are often victimless.IMO Each case should be evaluated on its own merit.**

He was THIRTEEN YEARS OLD!!!!!!!!! You think he wasn't a VICTIM?!?

[Finder]

18. A victim of the media for sure. n/t

[mzteris]

19. so you don't think

that this little boy was a VICTIM of that grown woman?

Are you serious?

[Finder]

20. Now that he is a man, what does he think?

Even in our judicial system we try juveniles as adults for crimes. All I am proposing is to deal with each case individually as we do in that area.

I do not feel he was a victim of the woman(in this case). I do feel he was a victim of circumstance and would probably be incarcerated or dead if he had not had this teacher as an inspiration in his life. That said, he is not an angel and was actually convicted recently for DUI.

[mzteris]

21. He was THIRTEEN YEARS OLD

yes - he was a victim. As much of a victim as any 13 yo girl is of a grown man MOLESTING HER.

What? You think because he's a "male" - it's ok. He "wanted it" or something? Geesh.

This teacher was an INSPIRATION in his life? OMFG...... that is about the sickest thing I've ever heard.

[Finder]

22. You obviously do not have teen male children...

but I do not think it is a matter of gender or age but circumstances. I think there are teen boys victimized by adults and those cases should be prosecuted.

[mzteris]

23. I have a 12.67 yo son

and a 7 yo son.

And if ANY ADULT (male or female) so much as lays a finger on them - I'll do to them what I would have done to any adult laying a finger on my now 25 yo daughter.

How can you POSSIBLY not believe that this BOY was a victim of this mentally ill adult woman?

[Finder]

24. I don't think she was mentally ill...

but emotionally weak. I don't think what she did is mature either. I also do not believe she had any malicious intent or plans to become intimate.

I think the facts support the above. I must add I have no respect for the woman since I feel she screwed up her children's lives but perhaps that blame belongs equally with their father too. In addition the other children she had with Vili will have to deal with the controversy as well.

What happened to Vili would not happen to our children/teens because we are involved in our children's lives more than his mother had the time or inclination to be.

I am in no way advocating adults have sex with teens. Like you, I would be a mother bear on anyone that dared. I just think we need to prosecute predators rather than well meaning although idiotic adults(age wise)through our justice system.

[Samurai_Writer]

26. What the hell?

I'm the mother of two grown boys, and believe me, if some teacher had taken advantage of them, seduced them, or raped them, I would not consider it a 'victimless' crime!

This boy was barely 13 years old when she started molesting him. You don't consider that pedophilia? THIRTEEN years old?

All I can say in response to your 'reasoning' is...

Jesus Christ on a trailer hitch!!!

[Finder]

28. I do not consider it pedophilia, nor does the justice system...

or the medical community.

[mzteris]

29. Criteria for Pedophilia

DSM-IV Criteria for Pedophilia

Over a period of at least six months, recurrent, intense, sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 or younger).


Or - if you think that he wasn't "prepubscent" anymore cause he could "participate" - then pick one of the these:

Ephebophilia has been variously defined as a sexual preference in which an adult is primarily or exclusively sexually attracted to postpubescent adolescents or a criminal behavior consisting of sexual abuse of pubescent or post-pubescent minors.


And whether you "believe" she's mentally ill or not - she was most certainly guilty of statuatory rape.

Or do you think a 13 yr old - of either sex - should be able to "volutarily" engage in sex with an adult without repercussion?

[Finder]

30. So why did she marry him as an adult?

If she was a pedophile, surely she would be out looking for a child, no?

[mzteris]

33. Many pedophiles

ARE married.

I don't think she's necessarily "a" pedophile - though she most certainly is guilty of child molestation and statuatory rape.


And even if she isn't "a" pedophile - I'd never leave one *my* children of any age alone with her. Would you?

[Finder]

34. Well our discussion is about her case in particular...

and I agree she was guilty of statutory rape per the law but the extenuating circumstances should have been taken into consideration by the prosecutor. As far as leaving my kids with her, I honestly do not see her as a threat. As I said before, I have no respect for the woman but do not feel she is a threat to society. I do not see her as being a "Pamala Smart" type of criminal.(My views on that case align closer to yours, I am sure.)

I really think this case, and some others that have been portrayed in the media, have done major damage to the progressive/feminist side of the spectrum. This case is cited by all fundie homeschooling advocates, anti-union forums and the religious right wing in general to make women, and in particular female teachers, look idiotic.

[mzteris]

35. Care to elaborate?

**but the extenuating circumstances should have been taken into consideration by the prosecutor.**

WHAT "extenuating circumstances" could POSSIBLY excuse a grown woman from having sex with a BOY? (And most especially a teacher abusing her position of authority.)

And no, I haven't heard anyone say anything about this damaging "feminist" issues. I've NEVER heard one fundie hs'er even mention it as a "reason" to hs - and I know plenty. (FYI - I AM a hs'er - and no, not the fundie kind.) Though we all have talked about "abusive teachers" in general.

How does this make women "look idiotic"? I think it makes her look mentally ill. Just like any grown man who'd have sex with a child.

[bliss_eternal]

36. Delete...

thought better of my post and deleted it...

:hi:

[Warpy]

16. The whole thing is weird

but having her in jug while Vili grew up was probably a good thing.

They're both grownups now and I wish them well raising their daughters together.

I have a cousin who married a lady 20+ years his senior. They have been married for 35 years and seem happy with each other.

To each his own, and if it involves consenting adults, it's none of my business.

[Solly Mack]

25. She was the adult and she was a teacher

Call me old fashion but the adult has to be responsible and a teacher is in a position of power/authority (as is an adult) and said position should never be abused.

What bothers me the most about such cases is the idea that the boys in such situations aren't a victim. The thinking behind such an assertion is pure sexism.



1 - rape of boys is somehow not rape because males want sex from older females

a. this goes back to the double standard of women are sluts that have sex and men are studs...

b. and the "strong" male can't be seen as "weak" and if he can be raped then he is like a "woman"...it's another way of blaming the victim and marginalizing women in the process(men also marginalize themselves but few see it). Weak gets raped. So as a defense mechanism, males use bravado..."you can't rape a willing soul"..."I'm not a victim!" "I'm not weak"..."I'm not a woman" "real men aren't victims"

c. it's acceptable to condition males that they are the sum total of their sexual experiences...it's macho to get laid. real men have sex....you're a stud if a woman wants you..

2 - that a female loses something by being raped and a male doesn't
(this thinking suggest)

a. that people are judging females by their sexual experience and rape is seen as a blackmark against the female's sexual experience...
1 - and you have to see rape as a sexual act to think this way to begin with
2 - that a value is being put on a female's "purity"...being "ruined" or "spolied"
a. and that means people are thinking with the "good girl" mentality and blaming the victim


I'm just repulsed when I see men brag how they would love to be "so and so" student or that they wish their teachers did that to them.

Such statements just don't speak well of them.

To me, anyway.

[bliss_eternal]

27. I agree, Solly Mack...

:hi: Good to see you! I recall after the case where another teacher was arrested for molesting her young, male student--Bill Maher made similar comments which I found vile.

We're still talking about children here--male doesn't matter. He was a child.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

32. According to something I read a while back

I wish I could remember the source so I could post it. A therapist was working with a grown man who recounted his teenage sexual experience with a grown woman. The man had a difficult time with life and relationships and the therapist observed that he demonstrated many of the same post-traumatic signs she saw in female rape victims, though the man insisted that he'd been a fully willing participant. This led her to explore the issue of woman-on-boy sexual exploitation, which is apparently much more common than you'd think. And it DOES hurt boys as much as girls.

A while back, I saw an HBO Real Sex show about a Nevada brothel. Apparently, a lot of men will bring their sons there for their first sexual experience. I posted about it and there was that one certain poster (ahem) who chimed in that this was a custom in a lot of places. Which, of course, makes it okay :eyes:

There were a couple of segments where they showed this. In both cases, the boys looked extremely uncomfortable. One of them, during his time with the sex worker, admitted to her that he thought he might me gay! People are so frigging clueless it's amazing. Those guys who say "I wish it had been me" don't know what the hell they are talking about.

[bliss_eternal]

37. I wish you remembered the source, too...

as it sounds really interesting. I love studies that challenge ideas so many just accept as the norm.

Your observations of the boys at the brothel--:wow: :scared: My heart goes out to them. I don't understand men (or women) that think it's their responsibility to introduce a human being outside of themselves, to sexuality in their way; as opposed to allowing others to figure it out for themselves in their way, in their time...

[Solly Mack]

42. Thank you for adding this

It seems obvious to me that young boys are harmed as well.

[Finder]

31. Rape is not sex but a crime of violence.

I do agree with you about the abuse of authority.

[Solly Mack]

38. Yes, I'm well aware that rape isn't about sex

I never said otherwise.

I was addressing how some people think and what they would have to believe in order to arrive at that way of thinking.


hence the "this thinking suggest" and the outline format and the part about such thinking being pure sexism.

[lukasahero]

39. "they wish their teachers did that to them."

But you forget their usual caveat (and, their true opinion of a woman's worth): "if my teacher looked like that". These same men are quick to speak differently if she's not a "hot babe".

[Solly Mack]

40. Yep. So true

[geniph]

41. No person in a position of real or perceived authority

should have sex with a person under that authority, until said person is no longer under it. Period. End of story.

And adults having sex with 13-year-olds is insanity. No matter how physically mature the 13-year-old is, they cannot fully consent to intercourse, as they cannot really understand its consequences. But no matter what you think about what the age of consent should be, or what the doctrine of harm should be, it still remains that there is such a thing as professional ethics - and teachers shouldn't screw students. Doctors shouldn't screw patients. CPA's shouldn't screw clients. Presidents shouldn't screw interns. One should wait until one is no longer in a position of real or perceived authority before making, or responding to, advances. Anyone who is unable to thus control themselves should probably seek another field of work.

Oh, and I have to say some of the assumptions people make about this case are ... misinformed, shall I say. I work at the school district MKT and Vili came from, and started here about a month after her first conviction. Most of the people I work with here knew her, and we all knew Vili - a very troubled boy from a very troubled family. (He went here through his high school years, until eventually dropping out.) Hell, they still call that one classroom at Shorewood "Mary Kay's room." Over the course of the years I've been here, the district has gone through several lawsuits related to the case.

She was well known throughout the district as a piece of work.

[bliss_eternal]

45. That must be kind of surreal--

at least it would be if I had a constant reminder nearby of such an infamous incident.

Case in point, during the OJ Simpson trial, I was in college and had to take a bus through downtown and past the courts. To this day, if I see those court buildings (on the news, in person, etc.) I think of the trial and all that entailed. :puke: :eyes: I avoid Downtown LA--I don't like to be reminded of any of it.

Reading from the source I provided above, filled in some blanks for me about her. I can see why others would see her as a piece of work. It's ironic to me that she comes from a conservative upbringing--those that (allegedly) stress the importance of personal responsibility. Yet her father (nor she) seem to have the ability to do so in their own lives. So typical of those on the right--that whole "do as I say, not as I do" attitude. Party of family values my ass. :eyes: