"She was raped and killed. She's a slut and deserved it."

[Cerridwen]

There is a thread on DU in which a freeper is quoted:

like i said the little slut wasn't raped this
aint no damn islamic culture crap the
muslims are afraid when her body is dug
up there will be no evidence of rape and
the rounds will be from raghead AK-47s

this little slut screwed US Soldiers to try
to get Intel from them for her beloved
raghead jihadist scum when the stupid
little whore didn't get any her raghead
handlers murdered her

these Soliders need to be freed ASAP
and the ragheads who lied about them
taken to GITMO

hey, aeisha, who is named after history's
most famous victim of pedophillia, you are
damn liar of course, most followers of
muhhammad ibn iblis (PISS BE UPON HIM)
are

I wonder how many people will recognize this tactic frequently used by rape apologists?

PM me if you want the link: I won't post it here as I'm not sure the OP is a rape apologist nor do I care to "call out" another DU member.

[bloom]

1. It is so disgusting

to know that anyone thinks that way. What kind of poisonous society produces somebody like that?


Different people have their different approaches to hearing that. You can rant about it. Sometimes I have tried to talk sense into people who come up with hateful rants - that is very frustrating. It seems that some people would like to put a dome of happiness around everyone and hope that others will become less hateful. I don't know that you can get through to people who are so sure of themselves and their hate.

Hate is a very powerful thing. It feeds itself.

I am afraid that the media - including the internet - will make it easier for people to become more hateful instead of less.


When I think of a place with less hate - I think of an island. And yet - there was that Pitcairn Island - where the leaders of the island were raping many of the women - starting at a young age. Not all islands are like that, of course - and the rapists came from a European country - so that should be taken into account.

There have been studies of populations of people - that I've posted - that were nearly rape-free societies. It gives me hope to think that people are not everywhere so hateful. But it seems more likely in isolated groups. The opposite of the world today.

[ThomCat]

2. If the language was a bill less coarse

and it was about a woman here in the US I could believe it was written here at DU. It's a very sad shame that this kind of attitude is not only common, but thriving.

[ismnotwasm]

3. So sad and so true

Just use a different way of expressing what is basically the same sentiment and there you go--typical rape apologist attitude.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

4. It's just mind blowing

The racism and misogyny that resulted in such a hateful screed. What is it about American culture that produces this subset of savages?

[geniph]

5. As I said on the original thread:

how the hell did his brain even learn human speech? not that he seems to have learned it particularly well, but still...

[Cerridwen]

8. Thanks for posting in the original thread.

I just couldn't make myself deal with the hypocrasy I saw there. Some days I just don't have the stomach for it.

I'm glad you did.

Thank you.

[JI7]

6. i have suspected for some time this was why there is debate about her age

and how some want to refer to her as a "woman" rather than report that she was 14 years old.

this way, they can try to play the "she was a slut" thing.

[Cerridwen]

7. I remember a case, about '93/'94 in which the judge found that

one of the reasons an 8 year old girl had been raped was because she "overly sexual" for a girl that age. I wish I could provide a link but that was before many papers were on the 'net. I'm trying to remember if it was in New York or if I'm confusing the location with another case where a woman had to "kidnap" her daughter to insure she was taken overseas by her abusive husband who was not a U.S. citizen. I wonder if I still have the newspaper clipping.

We tracked so many cases without the use of the internet.

Regardless, the point is, it is not unusual for any female to be judged as having "caused her own rape," regardless of her age. We have made some progress, but as I tried to point out in the OP, not yet nearly enough progress.

[bliss_eternal]

20. It is devastating when women do this to other women...

...and girls. It perpetuates the myth that women can play a hand in being raped. It absolutely sickens me to hear women speak this way of victims, or themselves.

[Cerridwen]

21. HUGE typo alert...

All these days later I just noticed that I posted "a woman had to "kidnap" her daughter to insure she was taken overseas by her abusive husband who was not a U.S. citizen."

ARGHHHHHH!!! It should have said

"a woman had to "kidnap" her daughter to insure she was NOT taken overseas by her abusive husband who was not a U.S. citizen."

I'm so sorry for confusion I'm sure that typo caused.

[Branjor]

9. If I were his mother...

I would resign from motherhood.

[bliss_eternal]

10. A little off topic...

but I'm always surprised when mothers of criminals show up to support their sons, when they are on trial for violent crimes against women.

I recall Scott Peterson's mother was very vocal that Scott couldn't have done it. Rae Caruth(former Carolina Panther football player) that murdered pregnant girlfriend, so that he didn't have to support her. His mother was at the trial all day, every day which blew my mind. Day after day she listened to people say the most damaging (true) things about how her son planned to have this girl killed, and she never even flinched. :scared:

While their unconditional love is admirable (to a degree), I'm disturbed at the denial that must kick in for them in these situations.

[DawgHouse]

12. I think some it may be guilt on the mother's part

as mother's often bear the brunt of blame for society's ills.

When Jeff Dahmer died, his mother wanted his brain donated to science. I can't remember the whole circumstance; his father was against it and he ended up being cremated without the donation being made. The mother spoke about how she hoped society could benefit from the study and that maybe someone could explain to her how this happened with her son.

Generally, when someone goes "bad" the world wonders what happened in his/her childhood to cause such horrendous crime to result. And often, the mother is the first person examined.

[bliss_eternal]

14. You're probably right...

it's probably not fair that we, as a society blame the mother. I think that some mothers do everything right, as best as they know how and these guys are just destined to be sociopaths. Sure, there's probably some out there that exhibited behaviours as children, that weren't discouraged...but who can say for certain?

[Cerridwen]

11. While I know this it tacky but I can't help think it...

that little puke is a good argument for retroactive abortion.

Damn, this administration is killing my karma!

/sarcastic joke

[bliss_eternal]

13. ..now there's a childhood I wonder about.

What the hell was going on in that house to make shrub turn out the way he did? Hell, Jeb is a womanizer and his kids are rotten, too? So you gotta' wonder what kind of mother babs is/was. Unfair, but I wonder.

Makes me think of a church we used to attend (VERY brief). One of the pastors decided one week to just go on ad nauseum about what a great wife and mother barbara bush has to be. :puke: I'm not making this shit up. He went on to say that her husband was vp then pres., her sons were governors and one went on to be pres. :wtf:

Dh gave me a look. We weren't there much longer. :scared: I was terrified they were going to try to make me drink some of the Kool-Aid they were obviously drinking.

[Branjor]

15. What kind of a mother Babs is?

What about the example set by GHWB? Their sons are classic male supremacists, they get that example from dad and model themselves after him. When all is said and done, Babs is just another woman in a male supremacist family. She can do so much and no more. Is this really FEMINISTS group, all mother blaming and no look at dad?

[bliss_eternal]

16. Excuse me, but I feel

...that you may be taking my comments out of context. I also feel that I'm being taken out of context.

My respose was based on the post prior and the situation I spoke of in my post. It goes without saying that the entire family is screwed up.

You are of course entitled to be offended by what was said considering this is a forum for women's issues. But if I may, I woud ask that you consider for a moment the woman you are defending.

She is the wife and and mother of MEN that have worked their asses off in their respective terms and states to dismantle women's rights. Am I blaming her for their actions? No. But I do not give her a free pass just because she happens to share my gender--no more than I would give Coulter, Condeleeza Rice or any other women that has been vocal on the behalf of that party or those men.

So forgive me if I spoke of her in a derogatory, non-feminist manner and you dislike that. She's in the party of personal responsibility--so I hold her accountable for having a hand in raising a monster, and being married to a greedy, misogynistic asshole. If one gives a shit about women, you wouldn't be in a relationship with a guy that hates them and wants to see them returned to second class status would you?

Given all the ass-kickings I've taken in GD for speaking up on behalf of women's rights and choice, I don't really appreciate someone questioning my feminist values based on one post, taken out of context.

edited for clarity. :)

[Branjor]

17. Excuse me, but I feel

you haven't the slightest notion of what I am talking about.

I do blame Babs for her loyalty to male supremacist men. I blame all women who are loyal to such men, including those loyal to so-called "progressive" male supremacist men, such as those DUers who are often complained about on this forum. Your question in post #13 was about "what kind" of a mother Babs must have been to have such sons, it did not in any way criticize her presence in that family in the first place. Unlike you, I do not blame Babs for how her sons turned out in that environment, as I think the father was their role model and the one who has all the institutional power in that family. Also guilty is the neo-con republican "world view" which formed the larger environment in which the Bush boys grew up and, last but not least, the choices of * and Jeb themselves to go along with all of that. I also do not give Babs a "free pass" for her gender as I do blame her for her marriage and loyalty to that family and those men who have, in your words, "worked their asses off....to dismantle women's rights."

[bliss_eternal]

18. ....ok.

I'm not going to get into a back and forth with you. My words are there and I stand by my intent. If you want an argument, look somewhere else. I choose not to bring that sort of energy here.

I didn't feel good about what you said to me, so I said so. I make an effort to speak to people on these boards in a respectful manner--and if someone says something to me that I feel is inappropriate, disparaging or divisive I call them on it.

You are entitled to feel however you want to about what I said.

Have a good day.

[Branjor]

19. Huh?

I disagreed with you about something I read in your post #13, which was not at all clear and was clarified more in your post #16. How is that inappropriate, disparaging, divisive or disrespectful? I also stand by my intent, as my post #17 also further clarified my own views. If you read our respective posts #16 and 17 closely, you will see that we actually agree more than disagree.

I also did not feel good about what you said to me.

I feel like I am being told I am "inappropriate" if I disagree about Babs' mothering being a cause of her sons' rottenness, and say it. She may not be a great mother, but I don't feel that any amount of good mothering could have made an appreciable effect on the outcome as long as it was done within the context of the Bush family. It was, of course, her choice to be a member of that family, and it was a very bad choice on her part.

[melnjones]

22. I do hear what you are saying...

but I want to bring up one point just for reflection. Not trying to argue here but something you said struck me.

"but I don't feel that any amount of good mothering could have made an appreciable effect on the outcome as long as it was done within the context of the Bush family."

Is it possible to take an understanding of what women are up against (especially in families as patriarchal as Bush's) to such a degree that we have begun to DISempower women? Where do we draw that line between what a woman could have done in a situation and what was completely out of her control? IMO, there is always room for empathy, knowing that women have a tough battle in such situations. However, I think that in the little argument that has ensued on this thread both of you make valid points and I hope that you can both see where the other is coming from.

On edit...like you stated, I think too that both of you would agree on quite a bit!

[bliss_eternal]

23. Great points, melnjones!

I always appreciate your empathy, compassion and ability to see things from various sides. :) :hi: It's nice when people can do so--see things from more than one side, and take the time(and patience) to do so, without hurling accusations at others. I know I could benefit from more patience in such situations.

Internet boards can be a source of frustration, as you are dealing with words on a page. There's no inflection, as one can hear when people speak--you can't see the expression on the person's face. If it's someone that you don't communicate with frequently, you don't know their ideas, opinions, attitudes on certain issues very well. So it's easy to misunderstand, jump to conclusions, take things out of context, etc.

I've been guilty of taking a few parts of an entire post and reacting, as opposed to seeing the post in it's entirety. :P

But I was so upset by the one comment--I couldn't see anything else. :blush: I hate to admit it, but I've done it. It happens frequently on the internet.

It's also easy to overreact and respond angrily, feeling insulted that someone would imply things about you without all the facts--which I was probably guilty of in my response above to a degree. :blush:

For clarification: In my post I said I wondered about that family. I also said something to the extent of I wonder what's going on in that 'house.'

I would think that 'family' and 'house' would imply that I was questioning more than just one person or a singular influence. The mother, again was in response to the conversation on the sub-thread. In fact, I wasn't even the person that initiated conversation about 'mothers.' As one can see when they read the entire thread.

Your statements melnjones are very much appreciated. It is important to see how our systems have conditioned us in many ways.

[bliss_eternal]

26. ....

deleted.

[Branjor]

24. melnjones...

People often mix up the messenger with the message. If I say that I don't think women have sufficient power within patriarchal families to make an appreciable difference, *I* am disempowering women. No, *I* have not disempowered women, the *patriarchy* has disempowered women. Women seem to routinely overestimate the amount of power and influence they have over sons in patriarchy, sons whose hierarchical position in the patriarchy is much higher than theirs, and this keeps the mothers (a) isolated from each other and laboring away in these families and (b) pouring an enormous amount of energy into their "superiors" in an attempt at change. Women are powerful, but fragmented, cut off from each other, not organized. Patriarchy is weak and despicable, but highly organized, cohesive and with the patriarchy within the family perfectly coordinating with the patriarchy outside of the family. And in addition, they leach off of the love, power, strength and emotional nurturing of the women in the family, which is their main power source. The sooner women face these realities, the sooner we will begin to make real change.

[melnjones]

25. Well stated...

And I agree with you. I didn't intend to say that any one person specifically was disempowering women, and I do understand where you are coming from. My post was more in response to my internal reaction to the words in the post. People have told me for so long that I don't have the power to change things, that I should just sit back and not worry about stuff (I know that isn't what was being said), and my immediate internal response to anything that even resembles this is 'well screw that.' I do fit into the category of women who easily find themselves "pouring an enormous amount of energy into their "superiors" in an attempt at change," but I have also learned when to leave situations in which I am not empowered to affect change and move on to another area where I can. (It's taken a long time to get there!) I always have to remember, for myself, that I do have power. Even if that power is in being willing to risk my life for something I really believe in, it's still power. (That's not a decision to be made without much consideration, of course.) I'm always reminded of my Anabaptist ancestors in Europe...many of whom were tortured and killed because of their religious beliefs, and yet they did not retaliate with violence. Those were powerful people, in their own way. I hope that makes sense, and I do appreciate your words, as they are quite well-stated.

[bliss_eternal]

27. Silly me...

...I guess I shouldn't have responded to this--seeing as my comments addressing this post were ignored, apparently the comments weren't intended for me.

I should have gone with my gut and left this entire thread alone. Oh well, forgive me...to err is human and all.

:)

[melnjones]

28. No dear...

You were fine in your response! I didn't respond b/c I was tired from studying for a final and had run out of energy:-) I hope my lack of response didn't come across as an insult...I appreciated what you said.

[Greyhound]

29. But... but... these are the "family values" that we are all supposed

to emulate. :sarcasm:

Certainly it isn't ALL BB's fault but, for whatever reason, she is a major contributer.