The discussion I've been TRYing to have in GD....

[Sparkly]

(Can I say that?)

I have to believe feminism has grown to the point that we do recognize gender differences, biologically and environmentally (although we can argue where one leaves off and the other begins!); and we recognize that we live in a culture that holds DEEP biases against women.

I posted three threads in GD...

The first was a poll for MEN here, re: the Debra LaFave case. (I hope this is a link to the OP; if not, scroll up.)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2147869

75% of men responded, "I'd have loved it sexually, and loved the hi-5's, and it probably wouldn't have harmed me as an adult."

The second was a post questioning the implications of that. (Again, I'm getting these links from searches of past posts so I don't know if they're going to the OP -- scroll up.)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2148639

The debate, I think, involved a lot of "knee-jerk" responses, claimed the poll was invalid, and claimed I was anti-feminist for even SUGGESTING that women be treated differently from men under the law -- as if there were NO physical or cultural differences.

The third, tonight, was a post questioning OTHER legal and philosophical stances acknowledging inherent inequalities -- whether physical, socio-economic, or cultural (via bias).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2175124&mesg_id=2175124

I thought the results were very interesting on many levels!

First, because my motives were suspect (which I can't figure out).

Second, because there were so FEWER responses than to the earlier posts about "sex." (Were the questions harder?)

Third, because so few who responded argued AGAINST gender-bias being accomodated by law.

I'm not thoroughly convinced of one side of the argument or the other re: gender differences implied by the LaFave case, which started this. There's much I don't know (particularly from the male side of it). I wondered about the common "I'd have loved sex with a hot teacher like her" as well as the common "It's exactly the same as a 23-year-old man raping a 14-year-old girl."

So I wrote the poll; then the post challenging issues involved; then the list of other such accomodations.

And what I've learned is this: THEY DON'T GET IT.

I can't even HAVE a debate among people in GD (I hope I'm allowed to say this) because they just don't get the basis of the argument, no matter how I try to lay it out for them.

I think -- God, I HOPE -- you on this forum understand. (If not, it's throwing in the towel or going back to 1972 square one... as I see it.)

How far behind ARE we when a progressive forum can't GET what seems to me like a simple, basic foundation on which we can stand, and from there have a debate... It astounds me to conclude that we just aren't there on a forum like this.

Is it ME? Did I assume too much? Did I say it the wrong way?

And you can disagree with the finer substance of my opinions... It's just the thoughtless, knee-jerk, non-consciousness-raised reactions that astonish me.

Perhaps I should have raised all the questions here, and not there... I don't think they were ready for it...

[melnjones]

1. Interesting posts...

I hear what you are saying and fully trust your intentions in posting, but I do disagree on quite a few levels. Keep in mind that I'm writing this as one sexually abused as a child by people of both genders...

One thing that is dangerous is to try to assume the level of harm that can be caused to a victim given certain circumstances, because the amount of damage takes into consideration so many factors. Some of these factors include past abusive experiences of the child, personality of the child, whether or not threats were given if the child were to speak about the abuse, etc.

A form of abuse that is often dismissed is covert sexual abuse. Experts will say that the damage done by covert abuse can be and often is huge, but because the abuse doesn't even necessarily include physical contact society tends to dismiss it.

The sexual abuse I got from a male when I was a child was violent and painful. The abuse I got from a female wasn't violent, but because of the relationships it damaged or threatened to damage and because of the length of time the abuse continued it was by FAR the more damaging experience(s). I wanted to add my two cents in the discussion because I know for me I hate hearing people speculate that abuse from a woman must not be as big of a deal as abuse from a man. Granted, I'm a female and the kid abused by the teacher is a male, but there are still some similarities. It is pretty typical for adult women who were sexually abused by both men and women as children to say that the more damaging abuse was that at the hands of a woman. It isn't always the case, but it is what I usually see.

For me, accepting that I was sexually abused by a woman has been the big turd in my feminist punch bowl.

on edit, i think this link is excellent... http://www.menweb.org/panofull.htm

[Finder]

2. I found the above threads interesting...

and feel I am in the same camp as you and agree there were many knee-jerk reactions.

Similar reactions can be seen when any mention of nudity, sex, breastfeeding, polygamy is brought up.

DUers are such a diverse crowd.

[cally]

3. I was fascinated by the discussion that I read

and I think too many don't understand the implications of what they are saying. I chose to not respond to those threads because I rarely get into these flamefests at DU anymore. I think you helped many of us think by your posts even though much of the discussion annoyed me.

[politicat]

4. I actually want to respond to one of the comments you made...

Perhaps from a combination of biology and societal messages, I think girls do NOT want ACTUAL sex at 14... Women, correct me if you think I'm wrong.)

I don't think you're wrong. In fact, I think you're spot on, and my observations and my own sexual history back it up.

One of the reasons that parents of teenage girls bring their child in for care is a fear of lesbianism (not the biggest, not the most common, but it happens. Yes, in 2006.). A daughter will get caught with another girl, engaging in sexual or sensual play, and this will freak out a number of parents. Usually, in the therapeutic environment, it comes out that the children were experimenting in a safe and equal environment, learning how their bodies react to stimuli and what they like. A common term that comes up is "practicing" as in, "we were practicing for when we have boyfriends."

Now, I don't see this as a problem. In fact, I see it as a positive solution to a societal problem -- girls, thanks to the lack of easily available contraception, the social mores that label them slut if they sleep around, and the physical pain and embarassment that comes with prime sexual experience, have fewer outlets for their sexuality than do boys. (Of course, I'd love to know why it's okay for a group of Boy Scouts to have a circle jerk but two girls kissing is not okay... but that's another discussion entirely.) Sensual play between equals in size, knowledge and gender for mutual satisfaction strikes me as creative problem solving in action. There's little risk, most girls literally do grow out of the attachment, and other than the socially demanded shame (that I find utterly unfathomable) that some girls are subjected to, either internally or externally, there's little to fear or be worried about. In most cases, such activity is just practice and an outgrowth of normal, intense adolescent friendships.

Now, from asking females of my acquaintance (when possible) and other sources of information in the literature and in professional experience... I'd say that about half of all girls do this at least a few times as young teenagers. And most never get caught, and put it behind them when they outgrow the phase. (I am talking about girls who are primarily heterosexual or bisexual leaning towards heterosexuality, not full lesbians and bisexual women who lean towards homosexuality. That's another circumstance altogether.)

But a girl of 12 -14 (when this phase is common) and an adult woman? That passes into abuse because it is no longer a relationship of equals. And pretty much whenever I hear of a case of a large age spread involving someone under 16 or so, I suspect that the relationship is one of unequal power, and while that is not inherently abusive, it can become abusive very quickly and with very little thought on either side of the equation.

[geniph]

5. You know, when I was a young teenager,

say between 12 and 16 or so, I had myriad crushes on older men, and several on "hot" teachers. At the time, I would have thought I was in heaven had they paid attention to me. But in retrospect, I can see how damaging it would have been to the way a child should develop sexuality had any of them indeed been unscrupulous enough to have sex with the immature me.

It astonishes me how many men can't divorce themselves enough from "sex as achievement" to see just how psychologically unhealthy it would have been for them, as young boys, to have had sex with older women in positions of authority over them. If nothing else, it gives a young person a skewed sense of sexual power exchange.

My position on this is fairly absolute; it isn't appropriate to have sex with a person over whom you have real authority. This applies whether you're a teacher, a military officer, a supervisor, etc., and the respective genders are irrelevant. Any professional person should understand and accept that any sexual attraction which occurs in these circumstances should NOT be acted upon until you are no longer in such an unequal relationship. This is why doctor-patient sex, or lawyer-client relationships, are a violation of professional ethics, and often, of criminal law. You may think you can have sex with your boss without it affecting your work, but would other employees feel the same? It's just not appropriate.

So what a 14-year-old boy might or might not want is completely irrelevant to the issue. Leaving aside the whole question of whether young teenagers understand enough about the consequences of actual sex (I'm not referring to mutual youthful experimentation with other kids) to REALLY want to have it, it still remains up to the adult in a position of authority to be professional enough to understand that unequal relationships are not professional, are inappropriate, and are often illegal for just those reasons.