Thoughts on the Debra LaFave case...

[bliss_eternal]

and the discussions that erupted on DU, based on her case (and situations like it).

For example:
This one's entitled, "He wanted it, and I gave it to him":
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2147175


Or this one:
Question for women. At 14, could you be attracted to a 23 year old man?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2163616

What about this:
Maurice Clarett (Former OSU RB) gets 7.5 yr sentence (LaFave gets off?)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2163104

Very interesting questions posed by Sparkly:hi:here:

Issues with Gender Equality, Raised by the Debra LaFave Case

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2148639

and here:
'Adjusting' for race, sex, class, handicap, sex-orientation - Fair or Not?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2175124

and here:
Serious question for MEN here, re: Debra LaFave

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2147869

It's my understanding that once threads are locked, then we can discuss the subject matter and content(by providing thread links like this one)--as long as no one is attempting to continue an argument started within this thread, or putting flame bait out in hopes of continuing the discussion from a locked thread. I am not. These threads have been archived for a while, and most in these threads don't visit our forums.

I just sincerely wanted to hear what others in this forum, thought about this case. It is my sincere desire to enable intelligent discussion about the issue as well as some of the comments brought up in threads about Debra LaFave--away from the insanity of GD and the "...she's so hot, I wish my teacher looked like that" chorus. :eyes:

Debra LaFave.

I watched the interview. I was struck by the fact that she said,"...he ratted me out" at one point during the interview. To me that just said it all. For all the other things she said about knowing she was wrong, being sorry, etc. she doesn't get it. She seems to see this kid as "telling on her" instead of truly understanding that her actions were irresponsible, abusive and sick.

Anyone care to discuss this?

Thanks! :hi:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

1. She skeeves me out, big time.

I felt guilty for even following the story, since there are so many more pressing things going on in the world right now.

I was watching her on Larry King or something and, in between flashing cheesecake shots from her modeling career, they'd be asking her questions which she'd answer with I guess was an attempt at wide-eyed innocence. It didn't work. The effect was more creepy than anything. I can't figure out why all those DU guys think she's attractive. She may possess the stereotypical blond prettiness but she's CLEARLY a few bricks short of a load, as they say.

I don't view her as being much different from Mark Foley, trying to excuse current behavior with past sexual abuse. I call bullshit. A lot of people are sexually abused as children and DON'T go on to abuse as adults. And she's worse than Foley IMO because she actually did have sex with a minor.

I blame the media and sexism for her getting off with such a light sentence. It really pissed me off when guys were slamming us in the posts for it whining, "How come you feminists aren't up in arms about this!" Dontcha just LOVE when they tell us what we're supposed to be mad at? :eyes:

[bliss_eternal]

2. Those posts and threads

pissed me off, big time! :mad: If you notice from the ones I linked to, I only posted in one of the threads. The others, I did my best to ignore. Didn't think arguing with them and pissing myself off was worth it.

I watched a program on Oxygen from their "Secret Lives of Women" series. :eyes: That series and the name they gave it is a thread discussion in itself. But I digress. Anyway, they had one about women that were guilty of having relationships, sex, etc. with underage boys. As far as I remember, all of the women did some jail time and HAD to go through counseling for sex offenders. At least two of the women featured said that the group therapy sessions really opened their eyes to the magnitude of what they had done AND their responsibility in the situation--as adults.

LaFave's "I'm too pretty so I get house arrest" sentence is crap. Since when does the justice system weigh one's looks prior to handing out sentences? The system isn't doing her any favors giving her house arrest and no sex offender counseling sessions. To me, it's the equivalent of what OJ got all those years he was beating up Nicole--a slap on the wrist and a finger wag,"...now don't do THAT again, naughty!" But of course he did it again...and again...until one day he killed her.

Because of his money, fame and prestige as a football hero he got away with many infractions that never saw the light of day.

Who's to say LaFave wouldn't do it again, if she had a chance?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

3. Hell yeah she'll do it again

She's got no incentive whatsoever not to IMO. Not only did she not get anything resembling punishment, she got the type of attention she obviously craves, on a national level.

That show you watched sounds interesting, though the title *ick!* :puke:
The problem of women preying on boys is clearly more widespread than we think and to paraphrase the name of one of my fave blogs, I Blame the Patriarchy for it every bit as much as I blame it for men going after girls/boys or whoever. We live in a sick, sad, effed up world where might makes right and if you can get away with taking advantage of someone who is vulnerable, then bully for you! It sucks. :grr:

[bliss_eternal]

4. She seemed so matter of fact

about it all, so I agree. There was nothing I saw in or about her that made me believe she was "past this" behavior.

I'm not at all sure what to think of Oxygen and some of their show titles, but I do generally find that series interesting. I couldn't believe I was watching that one in particular, as the subject matter is disturbing to me but was interested to hear and see the other side of the issue--how would a woman end up in such a position.

One woman was SOOO hard to watch and listen to. She didn't seem sorry and talked a lot like LaFave in that despite her victim being a kid and her age, he totally wanted it, wanted her, etc. :eyes: and she wasn't responsible for his "desire."

The thing that most struggled with was that they are now KNOWN as sex offenders and pedophiles. A couple of the women stated they had never had such thoughts before and knew they never would again. As such, they had a difficult time with that label. Particularly the women that had children of their own that were for a time taken away from them.

The other story that was rough was the woman who had a child by her victim. She moved away from the area and the boy's parents are suing her for custody of their grandchild. While I can kind of understand them thinking she's unfit to be a parent--it's weird to me that they would want the child. Why would they want a grandchild that was conceived that way? To me it was like they wanted it both ways, and were contradicting themselves. :shrug:

They want the woman to be punished. She was. They want to protect their son. They are. But yet now they say he's the father and is entitled to his child? :wtf: Why would anyone want a constant reminder of this event that ruined their son's life? :crazy: I don't know, I could be off on this--but it seemed that they just wanted a baby, :eyes: and weren't at all concerned for the baby's welfare, or how it would affect their son to have to be reminded of his abuse constantly by having the child around.

The woman had done her time, was in counseling and wanted to leave the area so as not to see the boy and further impact his life by having to see her and his child around town. But the parents think this is wrong of her and they want "their son to have his rights to his child". :shrug: Their words. :eyes: I don't know. That strikes me as odd.

It's one thing if a man, of age enters a consensual sexual relationship and they get pregnant--then of course he has rights to the child and should be a part of that child's life, pay for it be responsible, etc. But when I think of the fact that this boy was abused and NOT of an age or maturity level to be considered 'consensual' then why should he be further traumatized with a constant reminder of his abuse. Is it me, or wouldn't this be forcing something upon him that he isn't at all ready to handle? And would it be possibly endangering the well-being of the baby to be raised with HOW his father had him/her? :scared:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

5. That's quite an interesting story there

I'd have to see it for myself to gather my own impression of the woman who had the baby. That's a really tough call. I suppose if she's truly realized the wrong she did and paid her dues to society, then she should not lose custody of her child. And you have a point in that the boy should not be forced to have a reminder of his abuse around him if it's not what he wishes. That's kind of like forcing a woman to bear and raisse her rapist's child. It should be up to him whether, or to what extent, he wants a relationship with his child.

On the other hand, if she's a freak like Lafave or that hideous Mary Kay Letorneau (sp?) I'd say get that kid as far away from her as possible! The poor thing will grow up ten kinds of messed up, whether it's a boy or a girl. :scared:

[bliss_eternal]

6. Oh hell yes...

if the woman had a Letournea or LaFave vibe, I'd totally say,"...take that kid away...Puh-lease!!! NOW!" I wasn't getting that vibe from her. But like you said, it would be great if you could see it for yourself. I'd love to hear another perspective on the show, and particularly that whole family.

The woman seemed remorseful, yet wanted to start over somewhere else with her child. She said she didn't want her baby growing up with the stigma of what she had done over it's head. That seemed logical to me, and at least she seemed to have the baby's interest at heart :eyes: (to a degree--I mean she's STILL one who's judgment is questionable based on prior actions of course).

I appreciate that you brought up the situation of forcing women to bear and raise their rapist's child. You nailed exactly what bothered me about it. Thank you!

For me, the boy's parents reminded me of that. Like even though they SAID they had their child and grandchild's interest at heart--they didn't. It was all about what THEY wanted--which was this baby. I don't get people that seem to allow logic and reason to go out the window when it comes to a baby and the possibility of them getting their hands on one. Hope that doesn't sound horrible--but I've seen it too much and it's a bit scary. :scared:

But again, just my perceptions from a show--I may be completely wrong in my observations and feelings.

[BlueIris]

7. ...egh. My take on her is that she is an haebophile.

As the result of years of systematic abuse in what one doesn't want to imagine were her horrifying "formative years." I have my own opinions on why some members of the public perceive her to have been treated more sympathetically by the justice system than they believe a male offender who had committed similar crimes would be, but I can't really go into that.

[ismnotwasm]

8. At the very best

She's a thief.
Realistically, At 14 a young man has already been indoctrinated into a patriarchal point of view, "Getting some" is a goal, a "hot" teacher will be a sexual highlight for many young men. There is even a possibility of a healthy outcome. Fond memories and all that. "Love Story" shit

BUT at the same time, he is learning or has learned to objectify women, divide them into animistic body parts, is not going to be consciencely aware of his expected and encouraged male privilege for constant sexual access to women either by having plain 'ol sex, media, relationships, or simply buying sex. Anytime he wants it. (The usual argument I hear is that "women don't have to buy it" Which is as illogical as the rest of sexist diatribe)So while I would love to see a healthier approach to sex, sexual education and perhaps even induction to the act itself, I can't see that the seduction--or rape, I believe it's called statutory rape-- (why that would differ between a male or a female I don't quite understand) of young men in our society by an older women does nothing to help anyone's sexual health. Or promote women's liberation.

14. Jesus. I've been through 4 teenagers, including one son and I know 14. I remember 14 in myself. You can fall in love at 14 with unmatched emotion. You can learn defense mechanisms healthy or unhealthy that you carry with you for the rest of your life. Older, apparently wiser people are impressive, logical, they have THE answers especially if the answers go against the status quo. What a searching, magical, intense rollorcoaster of an age. How easy it is to take advantage of them. Unless they're already soul hard, which I've seen-- very sad. Having sex with teenagers that damaged only reinforces the damage.

Why do I call her at best, a thief? Because at worst she's a rapist. Because at worst she reinforced to a young man that women are about sex. Because she stole true sexual choice away, just the same as if the genders were reversed. That young man will never get to decide, will never know what it's like to learn sexuality with his peers, he won't know the unrequited school boy crush is more in the realm of fantasy than reality, or should be. He'll always have the shade of the "older woman" over him. Because she her acts stole away his privacy, and he will carry the blame because he "ratted on her" (what a idiot that women is.) I doubt he would have if he was entirely comfortable with the situation.
How he deals with it remains to be seen.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

9. And this stuff DOES hurt boys in the long run

For many of the reasons you state. A long time ago, don't remember who or the publication, I read an article by a therapist who was working with an adult man who was have trouble with relationships. He was a well-known celebrity and every bit the archetype of the Alpha Male. He'd been married something like 4 or 5 times and had no trouble attracting scores of women. But according to her he was utterly miserable. He struggled with addiction for years and was plagued by a sense that no one really loved him. Turns out he was 'initiated' at the age of 12 by an adult babysitter.

The point of the article was that the therapist believed he showed many of the classic post-traumatic characteristics she'd seen in women who'd been sexually abused. The difference being that he was viewed as 'lucky' for having his first sexual experience in that manner and that his later promiscuity was considered far less problematic.

God I hate the stupid sexual double standards and tolerance of exploitation in this society.