Where do women get their ideas about feminism...?

[bliss_eternal]

There's a board that I read from time to time, and I was floored a few months ago when I read this:
(edited to protect anonymous identity)
Quote:

>At the risk of offending some still-idealistic feminists, I'd like to know
>what all the so-called feminists have been doing to protect women from
>ungodly births the past 40 years! Does feminism really care about women
>and birth? If so, why is it worse now than better?
>
>In my opinion, feminism doesn't care about women's birth experiences and
>the outcomes, they just care that women don't give birth (abortion and
>birth control)! The worse birth is, maybe the fewer children they will
>have and the less "oppressed" they will be! Hey, wait a minute; that is
>what has happened! Feminism works, after all!
>
>Bitter about feminism, I am!

Thankfully, a few women came along and attempted to "inform" this bitter person of what feminism is (and is not). I don't know that it made any difference, as the discussion pretty much ended at that point.

Where are women getting these ideas about feminism? Why don't they get that we are about "choices" for women and equal opportunities? Where do they get all this shit about us just wanting to stop conception and even birth?

Why are so many so quick to judge and assume all we want to do is to stop them from having children?

Why aren't they angry with the patriarchal medical establishment, that oppresses and outlaws homebirths and lay midwifery? Why be pissed with the feminists when we don't call the shots?

This isn't the first time I've seen this sort of thing. There was a time the only women that wanted to home-birth were the liberal, feminist women, the so-called "hippies." Now it seems there are all these fundie women that are involved in the birth movement, and they don't know the history of it all. They fail to recognize what their lesbian sisters and the feminists did to pave the way for what they do now. Frankly it pisses me off. :mad:

Sorry, didn't mean to go off on a tangent... If anyone has any ideas about where these "ideas" come from, please share.

:rant:

[ismnotwasm]

1. The media

Has been very successful in demonizing feminism. One of the reasons I talk about it when politics come up in my real life. The word is so unused in daily language compared to say, democrat, or liberal, or conservative that people are a bit startled.

It's an easy, catch all word that all kinds of crap can be blamed on. The actual gains and triumphs of feminism--which would include better birth standards, fighting for better birth standards the world over,a return to the respectability of midwifery and actual options in birth other than get- her- that- epidural- and- shut- her- up. Those comments came from EXTREME ignorance of the average birth experience--which is still controlled mostly by men. If that poster wanted to make a change, her best bet would to claim the title feminist and start fighting along side with the rest of us, instead of finding a convenient scapegoat in the word "Feminists"
And you're so right, a little research into birth history would help. Regaining our roots in the birth experience is a intergral part of feminism to me.

[ThomCat]

2. Definitely the media

and it's an oppositional media. That would be like learning about democrats only by listening to republicans. :grr:

I was very, very fortunate that when I started doing volunteer work in college one of the organizations was run by feminists. They pointed me towards the campus Women's Center, where I ended up being one of two male members. And the women there pointed me towards Women's Studies classes that were some of the best courses I ever took.

If not for that word of mouth and then classroom experience I wouldn't have ever learned anything accurate about Feminism on my own. I guess that's probably true for a whole lot of other people too.

Unfortunately, my own sister won't talk to me about what feminism is. She says I'm not a credible source because I'm a guy. But she listens to everything Sean Hannity says as if it's the inspired word of God. So you can guess what she believes about feminism.
x(

[bliss_eternal]

3. Oh no...

a Sean Hannity fan? I'm so sorry. :hug:

Not to put down your sister, but I'm inclined to think she'd learn a lot more if she turned off her tv. That guy is garbage. :eyes: I don't know how people even get past the way he talks and his voice. :banghead: Drives me nuts!

[bliss_eternal]

4. My intro to birth history came from a man...

:D He was my medical anthropology teacher in college. I LOVED that class! It made me want work in the field--I liked it that much. He obviously had feminist ideals and felt it was important we knew what happened to birth and who took it away from women.

When a woman was going to give birth, her mother was there, her sisters, aunts, female cousins--the women of the family attended the birth. Midwives traditionally were the women that had either raised their children or were the childless women of the community. This allowed midwives to attend birthing women (usually at night and in the wee hours of the morning)without concern for their own families.

Unfortunately these were the times when "death during childbirth" was common.

The burgeoning medical establishment preyed upon that, insistent that it was these horrible, stupid women that were killing women in childbirth. They blamed the arrogant midwives allowing women to walk around during birth, to (gasp) sit up and birth a child while crouching. How dare they "allow" a woman to birth, to yell and scream and thrash about if and when she needed to? How dare they allow a woman to endure a natural physiological process without understanding that men were what was missing from the equation--what was needed to save lives? :sarcasm:

Umm, I guess it had nothing to do with sepsis, infection or other underlying conditions that may put mother and child at risk. :eyes: Conditions that contemporary midwives now understand and would see(and seek assistance for) long BEFORE a mother's life was at risk.

What about the many children that were delivered naturally, at home, with (and w/out)a midwives assistance for all the years before doctors saw the dollar signs and the money they could make off of birth?

What about all the rural areas that predominately utilize midwifery (where it is legal and doing well) where healthy babies are born everyday to alive, healthy moms? Are these mere anomalies?

What about all the Doctors that butcher women to "move along" childbirth, so they can "get it over with"?

Was it NOT women with feminist ideals that have attempted to return the birth process to women?

On edit--I'm so sorry to go off this way. I just get so angry thinking of this and the way the media and even other women are perpetuating these strange ideas about feminists and feminism.

:rant:

[ThomCat]

5. That is an excellent rant.

:applause:

I agree with your sentiment. I know from personal experience, thanks to my disability, that doctors know only a fraction of what they think they know, and a much smaller fraction of what they want the public to think they know.

How much harm have they caused to prop up their egos and profits?

[bliss_eternal]

6. Apparently more than much of the public is willing to admit...

...and thank you for the compliment, ThomCat. :blush::hi:

Case in point related to birth:

A friend was pregnant with her third child, and requested a tubal ligation after giving birth. One day, she goes in for what she thought was a routine check-up during her pregnancy. She wasn't due for at least another three weeks. The doctor gives her something (I don't recall if it was a drink or a pill or what)--tells her she can go check in the hospital. She, confused asked him what he was talking about. He informs her that he gave her something to "move things along" (a nice way of saying induce labor)--and tells her "he thinks" she's ready to deliver.

This is someone who had already given birth twice prior. She was well aware what she feels like when she is READY. But this md told her she was ready, AFTER giving her something to induce labor. :banghead:

Get this, her baby WAS NOT READY. He refused to drop down, and she went through two days of agonizing induced labor. The doctor insisted on a c-section, because the baby wasn't co-operating. :grr: Of course he wasn't--he wasn't ready dammit!!! :mad:

So he gives her a c-section. She was traumatized by it, and shared with me months later that if THAT was her ONLY birth experience, she NEVER, EVER would have had another child. She said it was her worst birth, and she felt she had no control over any of what occurred--unlike her other births.

In case you're asking why the md induced later, I'll tell you what I think. The doctor was going on vacation--and would have been away when she was due to deliver. She found out about his vacation AFTER the c-section, etc. He wanted to deliver her baby and perform her tubal ligation because HE wasn't going to get paid for the procedures otherwise.

I know this sounds cynical, but there's absolutely no other reason for him to rush her into labor prematurely. THAT'S not even a plausible explanation as far as I'm concerned. But it does make sense in terms of the m.o. of too many ob/gys that perform c-sections. It's on THEIR time, not the mothers, not the babies--THEIRS. It's the MD'S delivery. :eyes:

I'm very sorry to hear about your disability,ThomCat. :hug: I hope that you are comfortable, and under the care of someone that functions out of YOUR best interest.

[Warpy]

11. I know of nothing taken orally that will induce labor

Pitocin has to be given intravenously and very carefully, as one of the side effects can be uterine rupture if the contractions get too strong.

I have no clue what he gave her, unless it was some sort of contrast medium for an x-ray or GI ultrasound.

Sometimes we recognize coincidence as cause, especially when we don't know the full story. Tell her to ask for a copy of her medical records (she can lie and tell the hospital she's moving to another country if they get really stuffy). If I had to hazard a guess, either she was abrupting or her amniotic fluid was leaking. Contrast medium would make perfect sense in the former case.

Docs don't mind if another doc does procedures when they're on vacation because it'll all be repaid when the on call doc goes on vacation.

[bliss_eternal]

13. Excuse me...

but if you don't know the doctor I spoke of personally, how can you possibly state what he would or would
not mind? :shrug: Maybe this has been your experience. I think it is reasonable to believe that doesn't
necessarily mean it is going to be the same for all (vacationing doctors).

My friend was traumatized. I don't understand why are you offering options and choices of what she
can do, when you aren't aware of what she has or has not done in regard to the situation, or when any
of this happened.

My friend is not a member of this board, and as such, I changed some of the information to protect
her identity. So everything I said here is not going to give you a full picture of the situation.
I'm not sure why you second guessed any aspect of it.

[Warpy]

18. Gee. maybe because I was a nurse for 25 years.

That's why I suggested your friend get a copy of her records, find out what was really going on.

If there were no indications for a C-section like fetal distress or abruptio placentae, she might have a case for malpractice.

In the meantime, sometimes a post is offered in a spirit of trying to explain something and in a spirit of trying to help.

[bliss_eternal]

19. I appreciate your explanation.

I was hoping I misunderstood your post, and I sincerely apologize as it seems that I may have. :hug:

Without personal knowledge of the physician that my friend saw, or all the specifics of her situation--I read what you wrote as being dismissive of "my opinion" of what happened to her.

Your comments did read as those of someone that worked in the field--I should have recognized that.

Dh's relative (an RN, now NP) stated it was an inherent aspect of nursing for her to explain and (sometimes)to defend the actions and choices of doctors(whether she agreed w/what they did or not)to patients. :eyes: She says she got tired (fast)of that aspect of her work, which I can totally understand. My aunt shared the same w/me, which I wished I she had told me prior to my taking the time to take pre-reqs. for nursing school. Thinking for myself is tough enough sometimes. :P LOL! At least I found out before I entered a program, and had time to pursue another path.

But I do appreciate that you offered the comments in a "spirit of trying to help." Thank you. :)

[Warpy]

9. Death during childbirth INCREASED enormously when men

started to interfere in the process because the doctors of the time would leave in the middle of dissecting a decaying corpse, lancing huge boils, or debriding infected wounds to attend a woman just as the baby's head started to show. The increased deaths came from puerpural fever given to them by meddlesome men.

The struggle to get doctors to wash their fucking hands was a long one, fueled by the nursing concepts advanced by Florence Nightingale, who thought Semmelweis made a lot of sense and the way to reduce infection was by preventing them through cleanliness.

Until then, midwifery was scorned and occasionally punished and women were allowed to die.

[ThomCat]

10. I have long been amazed

that doctors had to be convinced to wash their damned hands before sticking them inside people. :wtf:

They seemed to have this magical belief that they could not be responsible for any harm.

[skyblue]

7. I Watch "To the Contrary", I also try to keep track of sites such as

NARAL. Alot of times tho' you find that the most vocal women are those attached to "anti-choice" viewpoints and most women don't understand that their right to choose and their daughters right to choose are in serious jeopardy. They don't know what's going on in SD, or they don't care about their sisters in other states. Really hate to say it but the bible belt in this country is really really large, and many of the prochoice are isolated from the bible states and don't understand the hold that these Jesus is from the middle east yet he has light brown hair and a very white complexion, how very large these groups are in other states. At least some of the Catholics do have groups that are pro-choice and will fight the very large anti-choice contingent that is Catholic.

[Warpy]

8. It's likely a CWA harpy "Feminist" for life, or a MAN.

It sounds like most feminists wisely avoided the troll.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

12. From Rush and Phyllis Schlafly

I swear to god I hear the worst sort of strawmen trotted out at the mere mention of the "f" word. Almost invariably the argument will go something like, "I don't think there's anything wrong with a woman staying home with her kids!" I try to point out that if you feel that way, then you should support feminism. Most feminists advocate economic and social policies that value parenting and protect women who choose to stay home.

Speaking of choice, I think that concept has been so coopted by corporate marketing that people confuse having a wide range of consumer options with true freedom. In other words, the fact you can buy uncomfortable high-heeled pumps in a dozen colors doesn't mitigate having to wear shoes that crush your toes in order to look good so you can get or keep a job. Don't get me started on breast implants....

As for the example you cited, whoo! She is looking for a convenient scapegoat. Feminism ably fits the bill because it's probably denigrated in her community. The problem is clearly patriarchal profit-driven medicine, as your experience demonstrates. But she'll never see that because she thinks by slamming feminism that Rush or Adam Carolla or Bill Maher will give her a cookie.

[bliss_eternal]

14. Well said, catburglar...

how could I forget that nightmare Phyliss Schlafly?! :eyes: And what Rush has accomplished single-handedly...:grr:

I hate to sound petty, but I've always wondered what gorgeous, intelligent, strong-willed, defiant woman jilted that overbearing turd
in broadcaster's clothing. He so obviously hates women that are challenging. So transparent.

[MountainLaurel]

15. I can guess which board that was on

And I think part of the issue is that the women who believe that way don't think of the impact of the patriarchy, because their religious beliefs dictate patriarchal rule.

[bliss_eternal]

16. Hi MountainLaurel...!

:hi: Feel free to Pm me w/where you think it is. I'm happy to share where it's from, just not on the board. :)
I tend not to frequent any "religious" sites. :scared:

[Marie26]

17. The media & guys.

For real.

[bliss_eternal]

20. Another person with "interesting ideas" of feminism...

:eyes:

http://chips.luther.edu/modules/news/article.php?storyid=4794

Don't trip and fall while running away from the label...

[ThomCat]

21. She doesn't get it that she can say all of that stuff

BECAUSE of feminism. She's effectively leaching off of the cause. :(

[bliss_eternal]

22. I know...wasn't that annoying?

:banghead:

I'm equally befuddled by so many young women that are so reluctant to even attach themselves to the word "feminist." As if doing so means they are 'bad' or some other undesirable thing. Listening to a bit too much Rush perhaps? :eyes: