Anyone up for a discussion of pornography?

[ismnotwasm]

I found this on wikepedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography

(Warning--it's a bit long)

It seems to be more on the pro-porn side, but seems to try to present both "sides" what I found interesting--and disturbing were these sections:

Effect on sex crimes
A lower per capita crime rate and historically high availability of pornography in many developed European countries (e.g. Netherlands, Sweden) has led a growing majority to conclude that there is an inverse relationship between the two, such that an increased availability of pornography in a society equates to a decrease in sexual crime. <8> Indeed, since the widespread adoption of the Internet as an unfettered method to distribute adult material, the United States crime rate nation-wide has consistently and steadily dropped by almost 50% from 1993.<9> Moreover, there is some evidence that states within the U.S. that have lower rates of internet access have a greater incidence of rape.<10>


Effect on sexual aggression
In the 70's and 80's, feminists such as Dr. Catharine MacKinnon and Andrea Dworkin criticized pornography as essentially dehumanizing women and as likely to encourage violence against them. It has been suggested that there was an alliance, tacit or explicit, between anti-porn feminists and fundamentalist Christians to help censor the use of or production of pornography. <11>

Some researchers have found that "high pornography use is not necessarily indicative of high risk for sexual aggression," but go on to say, "if a person has relatively aggressive sexual inclinations resulting from various personal and/or cultural factors, some pornography exposure may activate and reinforce associated coercive tendencies and behaviors."<12>.


Pornography production and violence against women
According to Dr. Diana Russell, "When addressing the question of whether or not pornography causes rape, as well as other forms of sexual assault and violence, many people fail to acknowledge that the actual making of pornography sometimes involves, or even requires, violence and sexual assault." <13>

And This:

A case study: Japan
See also: Pornography in Japan
Milton Diamond and Ayako Uchiyama write in "Pornography, Rape and Sex Crimes in Japan" (International Journal of Law and Psychiatry 22(1): 1-22. 1999) <19>:

Our findings regarding sex crimes, murder and assault are in keeping with what is also known about general crime rates in Japan regarding burglary, theft and such. Japan has the lowest number of reported rape cases and the highest percentage of arrests and convictions in reported cases of any developed nation. Indeed, Japan is known as one of the safest developed countries for women in the world (Clifford, 1980). (...)
Despite the absence of evidence, the myth persists that an abundance of sexually explicit material invariably leads to an abundance of sexual activity and eventually rape (e.g., Liebert, Neale, & Davison, 1973). Indeed, the data we report and review suggest the opposite. Christensen (1990) argues that to prove that available pornography leads to sex crimes one must at least find a positive temporal correlation between the two. The absence of any positive correlation in our findings, and from results elsewhere, between an increase in available pornography and the incidence of rape or other sex crime, is prima facie evidence that no link exists. But objectivity requires that an additional question be asked: "Does pornography use and availability prevent or reduce sex crime?" Both questions lead to hypotheses that have, over prolonged periods, been tested in Denmark, Sweden, Germany and now in Japan. Indeed, it appears from our data from Japan, as it was evident to Kutchinsky (1994), from research in Europe, that a large increase in available sexually explicit materials, over many years, has not been correlated with an increase in rape or other sexual crimes. Instead, in Japan a marked decrease in sexual crimes has occurred.
There has also been a recent increase in sex crimes in Japan which parallels an increase in all crimes. Some in Japan have blamed the increase on violent pornography and indeed, some sex offenders report having been inspired by themes in commonly available pornography. The counter argument is that some sex offenders will likely use any defense they can to lower their culpability.


So what do you think? Does access to pornography actually "lower crime rates" (Note the comment didn't specify sex crimes) Is a case study involving a country not noted for the liberation of women a good example? (Ever see Japanese porn? Sight to see indeed)

I'm totally open to discussion from either view-- any other studies available, I can pull up a few from either "side" myself.

My personal view is modern porn (being the last few hundred years) is patriarchy based and while not inherently BAD, at this time reflects your basic subjugation, domination and degradation of women.

I live in "bad" neighborhood. OUR porn shops have no windows, only XXX or "Adult Only" Video's only on the slits they do have for windows. No pink teddies, dom clothing or cutsie crap. I plan on going in and getting the top ten selling titles. Let's see if what I expect and what I get are different.

So, anyone game?

[Book Lover]

1. All I can recount is from my personal experience

I was the art director for an adult weekly for three years. In that time I met people who behaved in absolutely no manner differently (literally, including the pimps) than people in any other type of publishing business I have worked in. I met guys so pathetic that they hung around the printer, waiting to pick up waste copies of the magazine, because that made it more "dirty." I met guys so together that they were self-made millionaire professionals. I met women of every conceivable type: mousy, strong, milquetoast, liberal, conservative, poor, middle-class, rich, assertive, "whatever", drug-free, churchgoing, drug-addicted, etc, etc, etc.

Subjugation of women is what you get when we can't get credit in our own names, can't serve as jurors, or are not allowed to drive. Domination of women in the porn industry is no different in any way than when we are dominated in any other businessplace. The woman working in a slaughterhouse is just as degraded, or not, as the woman who is a sex worker.

[VelmaD]

2. I don't ever cite Wikipedia...

as a source. I also found it interesting that they cited pro-porn research in the section that was headed "anti-pornography movement". Tells you what you need to know about where the author is coming from.

That said, I work tangentially in the porn industry. I edit gay erotica for a friend's online press. So I cannot be painted as completely anti-porn. But there have been other studies that link porn to some interesting results. My personal favorite was the one that showed people who had been shown porn were less likely to convinct in a subsequent mock rape trial where they were jurors than a control group that had not been shown porn. That kind of thing is just as concerning as physical violence and I'd like to see more of that kind of research on how porn shapes people's thinking.

Some porn reinforces all sorts of negative stereotypes about women and men both. Not to mention the worst stereotypes about what sex is supposed to be like. Porn that is violent or degrading toward women is a problem. We can debate all day whether is "causes" violence against women...but what I'm more worried about is how it affects men's perception of women and how they treat us. As well I'm worried about how it affects women's perception of themselves.

And I've never seen any study address how to untangle any effect from viewing porn from the culture of violence and misogyny that we all swim in on a daily basis.

[Katherine Brengle]

3. Erotica and pornography are very different things...

[eridani]

6. Certainly!

If I like it, it's erotica.
If you like it, it's pornography.
If those other people who are different from us like it, it's unspeakable trash.

[femrap]

4. I heard that the guy that started wikipedia

made his fortune first in p0rn....anyone know if this is true?

I can't even handle the sexist bullshit on R-rated movies...so you can imagine how I feel about p0rn.

There was a lenghty research report a year or two ago in the NY Sunday Times (I think). Internet p0rn was discussed...big problem with college males...they now have difficulty forming 'real' relationships with real women...cuz now the 'real' women are nothing but bad p0rn stars. They'd rather stay home and jackoff with the computer on Friday night.

[ismnotwasm]

5. I'm considering editing this on Wiki

I'm not completely "anti-porn" in the sense that I want to intrude into peoples bedrooms, but the way the entire article as written gives very poor information. Wikipedia is an interesting concept. I've gotten great pages in the sciences and history, and 'disputed' pages can be even more interesting when reading the arguments.

This is not a "disputed page". What I want to do is find referenced data that either will or won't back up the claim that pornography lowers crime. I still think Japan is a very poor case study. I won't have time to do research though for a few days.

I do know pornography is used in sex therapy, and I read a interesting study one time that many people get sexual health information from the stores that sell sexual aids, videos, clothes etc.-- because they are too embarrassed to talk to their health care provider, (who probably wouldn't know) and/or can't afford a sex therapist. And we're talking about things like basic protection, STD information, when to use a lubricant, how to safely use sexual aids. This particular study thought these stores could be utilized to improve sexual health. (It was done by sending questionnaires to such stores around the country, and of course was limited by actual responses, demographics, etc)

I understand the difference between erotica and pornography, although it seems people want to blur that line, or it blurs itself-- to me it boils down to harm done. Is a particular form of pornography harmful? Is it still degrading to women? Can pornography be "improved" or balanced I guess, so while those who enjoy pornography can do so knowing that no one has be hurt, coerced, forcibly degraded or has followed that road out of soul damage? If so, how do we go bringing that about? The topic, like so many others is polarized, either/or. Since I believe we are a patriarchy damaged society, the forms of much pornography reflect this. The need to degrade or dominate. The desire to watch such acts.

I was reflecting on the difference between '70's porn--Women and men were hairy (men more of course) sweaty, sometimes a bit overweight. Now the physical appearance of the actors is much different, (Unless you get into some of the more alternative porn) women almost universally have breast augmentation, no body hair, sometimes labial surgery and anal bleaching. Men tend to look like they work out a lot, much less body hair--and as always have at least partial, large erections at all times. Neither sex reflects reality, not that that's required, since it's not. But it does remind me of the onus of the expectation of physical "perfection" that is hurting so many of us as I type this, because again, that onus fall on the backs of women.

[Morgana LaFey]

7. Stats

I'm no fan of porn, at all. Once upon a time when I was young and foolish, I would repeat the liberal mantra: "I don't like porn, but....." and the but was about the First Amendment. And every single time I repeated that mantra, some little thing would go off in my head, as if my guts knew it wasn't really true -- but intellectually I sure thought it was.

And now I know the truth: Hogwash.

I know she gets dissed regularly, but anyone who hasn't read Andrea Dworkin's Letters from the War Zone really must. It's very difficult reading (IMO) -- raw, emotional, etc. But it is phenomenal. It certainly opened MY eyes and I can never go back.

Anyway, the real reason I posted to this thread was to say that just the other day (and I have NO idea where) I read that the stats for Scandinavian countries showing porn lowered crime was only true because at least some of the crimes were decriminalized. You know, the Bush administration trick of redefining things.

So check into that if you can.

[ismnotwasm]

8. I love Dworkin

Unapologetically. I don't agree with everything, but a whole hell of a lot more than I ever realized once I really started reading her. I'm glad and grateful she was here and a voice. She's vilified now more often than not, mostly because of the sheer guts she had to take on anything she felt was wrong. ACLU, playboy, whatever, she seemed a fearless as I wish I was, and as I strive to be.
One of the things I found was of synopsis of a conference dealing with the globalization of the sex industry in 2004 with Catherine Mackinnin as one of the speakers. She expressed great sadness that Andrea wasn't present.

After I started this thread I spend hours researching various aspect of pornography and the sex industry. A helpful person from "the other side" PM'd me some pro-pornography stuff. As I told this person, I understand neither porn nor prostitution (same thing in my mind) is going to go away. I would like the destructive aspects neutralized in some way but I'm damned if I can figure a way out.

No matter what studies I read, no matter what approach I took (I have the capability to be objective)The basic misogyny of the sex industry kept showing up over and over. And the danger, as the spike in HIV positive pornography workers a few years ago. I didn't buy into that "lower crime" bullshit because it's illogical for a variety of reasons, and the one you mentioned fits right in.

Anyway after a few days looking up all kinds of things (including one interesting--And dumbass--study on Amsterdam's red light district, basically questioning who is the "hunter" and who is "prey" as far as sexual procurement) What kept coming up over and over was the world wide exploitation of young women and to a lesser degree young men. What's terrifying is there is no way to track them. Statistics show anywhere from 400,000 to 2 MILLION persons forced into sex work. Not all are forced, evidently, but even those who are willing didn't seem to have a clear idea of everything expected from the few interviews I've found. And wear are they? From countries as diverse as Saudi Arabia to Germany (big offender, Germany) to the US.

I had to come up for air. I couldn't breath. I was horrified. What kept me encouraged in a way was Queer theory. Stripping gender expectations--sexual or otherwise-- and gender lies and gender stereotypes, it helped reading that, it helped. It soothed me when I was feeling pretty goddam raw.
I'm not done yet. I read feminist books and essays and poetry, out of enjoyment, but this is the first time I've done independent research on the topic with the little time I have available. And thank you by the way.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

9. Dworkin was smeared and taken WAY out of context

I swear, if I hear that "she said all sex was rape!" bullshit one more time, I'm going to hurl. She said nothing of the sort. She just (very, very succinctly) explained how the universal dominance/submission model of human sexuality fucks up genuine intimacy for everyone and causes all manner of abuse and exploitation. I bet if you showed the typical person some of her more eloquent writings and didn't tell them who it was, they would be in agreement with what she said. But the minute you mention her name, the wall goes up with a lot of people and they don't even want to give her a chance.

Porn and prostitution are the same things in my mind, too. One is depicted in a visual medium and one is not. No big diff, really.

As for the queer theory thing, it really gets to the crux of how the religious right and the pornmongers are just opposite sides of the same rusty coin. Both groups are scared shitless of women and constantly seeking to keep us in our place. Whenever some porn lovin' asshole accuses me of being aligned with the fundies (and you know they will), I just point out how they want to reduce women to our sexual function, just like the wingnuts. We feminists say that women are fully human. Neither the pornies nor the fundies can say that.

[ThomCat]

10. Agreed.

Andrew Dworkin was the first feminist who's books reached out and grabbed me.

I disagree with some of her points. I think porn is a good thing as long as it's well regulated so that nobody is victimized by the industry. It's just like any other major industry in that regard as far as I'm concerned. But there is a lot of valid reason for concern and caution.

I agree that Porn and Prostitution are largely the same thing.

[ismnotwasm]

11. Right on

Anybody who takes the time to actually look at or research what women's role was and is in conservative religion, from the bible to the Torah to the Koran and a whole bunch of literature in between--you'll find women as property commodities to be bought and sold, or deposed of as desired. Or temptresses to avoid. Some middle age writings are so condemning to women it's some of the sickest stuff I've ever read.

If not that, it's the whole holy virgin thing. Or the nurturing baby maker.

It's throughout history and pornography at it's most basic level is a modern expression of fundamentalism.

Women-- not men-- are considered unable to control themselves sexually (blame the victim? Fuck yes) Thus we needed restraints, control imposed on us. We are considered mentally and morally inferior.

I understand, in a way the women sex workers who feel empowered by what they do, but the missed point is they still are simply available for male sexual entitlement, no matter what the pay or perceived power.

Men were/are considered the victim's of women's sexuality, not the other way around.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

12. And even when the male libido is viewed as uncontrollable

As it is so often now by everyone from scientific researchers to right wing pundits, it's still the females who are expected to curtail their behavior. Up until as recently as the Victorian era and well into the 20th century, it was viewed as you say: that women have the overwhelming sexual appetites from which men must be protected. Women and girls had clitoridectomies performed on them in the U.S. and Europe in order to control their sexual behavior. One of the Kennedy daughters was supposedly lobotomized when she started to become promiscuous. Funny how JFK's rampant philandering wasn't viewed as a problem or a sign of mental illness.

Nothing scares the shit out of the patriarchy more than women being sexually autonomous. That much has not changed. The difference nowadays is the way our sexuality is pathologized and constrained, while still packaged for male consumption. Guys apparently need us women to protect them from their rapacious natural urges by carefully monitoring our own actions and theirs. Yet they also require a steady diet of pornography because we ordinary women aren't sufficient to arouse them. Meanwhile, women need to be sexually desirable and available to men while not enjoying the actual sex too much because then we're dirty sluts.

Is it any wonder there are so many messed-up people out there?

[Morgana LaFey]

14. Boy have you nailed that

:wow:

how the religious right and the pornmongers are just opposite sides of the same rusty coin. Both groups are scared shitless of women and constantly seeking to keep us in our place.

Pssst. Here's another secret (you probably know this): they're also afraid of our spiritual power. It's true. Yet another reason we had to be damned near eradicated during The Burning Times.

[Morgana LaFey]

13. Oh, goodness. I hardly know what to say.

I feel like ... like there ought to be some way to "save" you from the emotional peril of researching that. And I don't mean that (the saving part) in a patronizing way. It just seems like something one oughtn't to have to do alone -- go in there all by yourself, so to speak.

No matter what studies I read, no matter what approach I took (I have the capability to be objective)The basic misogyny of the sex industry kept showing up over and over.

Well, about that objectivity. Please remember that we have subjective faculties for a reason. What I was doing during my "I don't personally like pornography BUT..." phase was "being objective." So damned objective I ignored and drowned out my own inner voice which most certainly knew better.

Something else I'd like to say about the stats on pornography, would there were on this aspect: pornography is an addictive substance. That doesn't mean that anyone who "likes" porn will become an addict, only that like certain other substances and activities (alcohol, gambling, etc.) it's a high risk activity for those with addictive personalities or proclivities.

What's more: At least some serial killers like Ted Bundy are/were heavy porn users (addicts?). Sooner or later, many if not most porn consumers end up wanting to act out their fantasies. And THAT's why To Catch a Predator or whatevr that NBC prey-on-the-preyers TV show hasn't slowed down the incidence of adult males preying on teen boys and girls on the internet.

I love, love, love that you said this: I love Dworkin. Unapologetically.

This I'm not sure sure about: ;)

As I told this person, I understand neither porn nor prostitution (same thing in my mind) is going to go away.

I want it to go away, and I want to hold the space for that to happen. I'm no proposing legal means, but rather a rise in consciousness and a massive rise in sexual healing. No matter what those helpful "other side" people want to say: pornography and prostitution are perversions of human sexuality. And they ALL exploit women (and children to too great an extent). I'm not totally sure how to get there, but I AM going to believe that it can happen, and be open to possible solutions.

I'll bet few of us my age would ever have thought smoking would be as frowned upon and regulated (partially outlawed) as it is today. I grew up when smokers were very glamorous on TV and in the movies. No more. There are fewer and fewer places smoking is accepted as healthy or even allowed. Think too of the tremendous impact of MADD on our consciousness about drinking. I don't know that it's cut down drinking itself, but it sure has cut down drinking and driving without serious consequence.

We can get there. I'm sure of it.