What you Vick apologists don't seem to get...it's about intent...

[joeybee12]

There have been a lot of dumb, terrible things done by a lot of sports figures, people will note Donte Stallworth and Plaxico Buress as being the most obvious, and they seem to be getting off easier, and there isn't the disgust for them that there is for Vick. Why?

It's about intent. Stallworth killed a man and there is no excuse for drunk driving, but did he set out to kill someone that night? No. Michale Vick KNEW exactly what he was doing, SET out to do what he did, and WAS AWARE of his horrific, murderous actions EACH and EVERY SECOND while he was doing them. That's not just a crime, it's the sign of a sick, twisted, mind.

Oh, but he's paid his price. Has he? And he's so remorseful and knows better now. HOW THE PHUCK do you know that? Are you inside his mind right now? The guy has been out for literally only weeks and he's done oh so many wonderful things to show his contrition. Give me a PHUCKING break. He's done squat. SQUAT!

Michael Vick might eventually prove he is changed, might eventually show that what he did can stop people from doing the same thing, but the key word is MIGHT. And until he actually does prove that, and is not just playing so many of you for fools, then he gets NO PASS from me.

[scheming daemons]

1. He has, literally, paid his price to society. He served out his sentence.

Our justice system imposed a penalty on him. He paid it.


At that point, arguing that he doesn't have the right to seek employment goes against everything we should believe in.


Are you arguing that once a convicted criminal serves his sentence that he should STILL be punished?


What ethic would lead you to that conclusion?

[Sub Atomic]

8. If they let Charles Manson out of prison, would you feel the same way?

Would you be willing to give him a job and leave him unsupervised?

[Morning Dew]

44. A job, sure. Unsupervised, probably not.

[liberalmike27]

100. It was a terrible thing, but

I have to say, the guy served two years in jail. I'm sure he understands that he did a terrible thing. My guess is he was raised up in a situation, where this sort of thing was done on a regular basis.

I went to a reunion once, one where there were tons of old people, who were raised on a farm. These folks told me some stories that left me in horror, aghast at all the things they did, just as jokes, not to mention that back then people did stuff like snapping chicken's necks, cutting them off and watch them run around until they flopped over, and putting firecrackers in places you don't want to know about. I thought it was really sadistic, but in an environment like that, where people grew up doing such terrible things as a matter of course, or entertainment, are we really surprised that a few folks stillg grow up like Vick?

He made a really bad mistake, many of them apparently. Hopefully he won't do it again, as he surely must realize it would be his very last. He's got a lot on the line, but I think they should let the guy play. I love animals more than people, but he didn't kill anyone, and I don't think he should have his whole life destroyed.

[Huskerchub]

132. ummmmmmmmmmmm...

how do you think that chicken you ate for lunch go onto your plate? Hello, it's neck was broken or as you call it neck snapped, or head cut off. You don't shoot chickens to kill them you break their neck or cut their throat/neck. Yes when you cut the head off of any animal the body can continue to move on it's own and yes chickens do run around "like chicken with their heads cut off" whey do you think the saying came from?!?!?!? As for firecrackers etc, that is for a sick and twisted mind BUT then chicken was still used for food, if not for people, for other animals.

How dare you compare a farmer's way of sustaining their life to dog fighting....truly sick.

[scheming daemons]

84. Manson's sentence is a lifetime one. Because of the nature of his crimes.

If the nature of his crimes was such that his sentence had a time-limit on it, then yes....once he fulfilled his debt to society, he would be a free man.

In every sense of the term.

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. His DEATH sentence was commuted to life wiht no parole

when we came this close to getting rid of the death penalty.

And the few times they have shown him on TV he should be moved to a mental facility if that ever happens

Ye are comparing apples and oranges.

And yes VIC HAS SERVED HIS TIME.

This attitude is why many Cons go back to crime. They literally have no choice.

I for one am happy this con found a job.

Now you obviously feel otherwise, so don't watch the pigskin fly. I know i wont, since I don't watch sports. But if I did, I'd even write the team and give them apropos for being an example to EMPLOYERS on hiring con men once they serve their time. Hell, I may just do that.

[Morning Dew]

115. Manson can get paroled. He probably never will though.

plenty of video on Manson parole hearings here:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=manson+parole+hearings&aq=0&oq=manson+parole+&aqi=g4

[joeybee12]

9. You're a gun nut, right? Sounds like twisted logic I've seen before...

...did I say he shouldn't seek employment? My entire post is about why people are disgusted by what he did because HE KNEW what he did, and by their stupid, stupid, infantile reasoning that somehow they know he is really, really sorry...they know nothing about him and they're giving him a pass...I want proof he's changed.

[rd_kent]

39. What does that proof look like?

What would satisfy you? I dont think he should be out of jail yet, by thats my opinion. He was sentenced and served his time. What more does he need to prove?

[joeybee12]

62. That he's really soprry...words are cheap...anyone can say they'er sorry

when they're caught...what has he done so far so that others don't do the same thing? Maybe volunteer, maybe become a spokesman? Nothing yet. The proof is easy to see, when and if he does it.

[Jazzgirl]

79. I don't like what he did either. I love animals and have had

many. That said....the man doesn't have to prove shit to you or anybody else.

[Raineyb]

122. +1

A succinct point that many seem not to get.

[SammyWinstonJack]

131. Really? He doesn't? Well why is he on probation then? Seems like he has to prove something to

someone. :shrug:

[cayanne]

76. What does this topic have to do with guns and being a gun nut?

:shrug:

[scheming daemons]

85. Actually, no. I'm not. I don't own a gun and just yesterday...

...you can find a post by me where I am arguing that the "well regulated" part of the 2nd amendment is just as important as the "shall not be infringed" part.

[NeedleCast]

107. What Total Bullshit

You don't "want proof he's changed." You want him punished for the rest of his life.

Don't even pretend that's not exactly what you want. I've seen this BS in a dozen threads on the subject. I very seriously doubt that there is any level of proof that would satisfy your need for revenge.

[arcadian]

55. He has paid his price to the state, not society.

Apparently society is still plenty pissed off at him.

[Butch350]

60. Why do people ask such questions...

in such a diverse and opinionated forum?

[dflprincess]

2. You have to wonder -

Pete Rose bets on baseball and gets thrown out of the sport for life. Today's players cheat by using steriods; Vick tortures animals and all is forgiven.

Maybe it's a sign of how low our society has gone.

[fascisthunter]

5. very good point... the bar has been lowered considerably

[City Lights]

21. +1! nt

[pitohui]

47. vick fighting dogs isn't the same as cheating, vick never cheated

i'm totally not getting your post

vick never cheated at football, his sport, so why shouldn't he be allowed to play, assuming he's still fit enough?

people who cheat at their sport, sure, kick them out of the sport, put a fork in them, they're done

what's to wonder about? a cheat harms the sport

vick's activities on the side don't harm the sport, we already know that football is a sport that attracts men of high testosterone and some of these men are trying to harness their violent urges in a useful way (through sport) -- most people like football but don't like dog fighting, that doesn't mean the dog fighter is a cheat just because you don't like him

[dflprincess]

109. Like it or not professional athletes are role models for kids

behaving as though torturing animals is no big deal because it doesn't relate directly to football is what doesn't make sense. '

I'm curious, do you think it's okay to allow a player who beats his wife or kids to keep playing because it doesn't have anything to do with the game?

Abusive types always say they're sorry after they've been caught, most the time it doesn't mean a thing.

[Political Heretic]

118. That's a problem with commericialization in general

and the answer is not to ask sports leagues to start banning players based on subjective impressions of how quality a "role model" they are.

A better answer would be to address some of the root excesses of hyper-commercialization in our society, and for parents and communities to seek ways to organize and fight back by striving to build local environments where children define "role models" differently from what they see on Teevee.

[rucky]

3. Nobody's apologizing for him

But convicts who have served their time deserve the benefit of the doubt when they re-enter society. Labeling is the biggest factor in recidivism. I don't believe for a minute that the prison system is geared toward reform, but there has to be some measure of when someone has paid their debt to society.

[imdjh]

34. I think in the back of our mind is a false memory of when pro athletes....

.... were supposed to be role models, something other than hired meat. Of course, this is a "back in the good old days" fantasy. Pro athletes have traditionally had their ranks peopled with alcoholics, drug addicts, wife cheaters, wife beaters, whoremongers, gamblers, and all manner of miscreants.

[fascisthunter]

4. I Think Vick is a sociopath

it's a bad precedent to let this guy play, but money and entertainment trump everything else to so many.

[loosey goosey]

27. If he had kicked a kitten, people would be more likely to grasp the sickness of it all.

I just don't get those who minimize what he did. On the other hand, maybe he really did change. We can't get inside his mind, but why is this different than anyone else who's served time? Because he'll be back making the big bucks? Maybe they should force him to give a certain percentage of his annual earnings to no-kill shelters for five years.

[fascisthunter]

29. lot's of people just don't care...

[loosey goosey]

32. Cock fighting, dog fighting, boxing...I think they are all barbaric sports

and if you look at the audience at a wrestling match, you will see exactly the low consciousness of it all. Violence as a sport is utterly revolting to me.:puke:

[grace0418]

46. The difference between cock fighting/dog fighting and boxing is that boxers are

adult human beings who are willingly agreeing to engage in the sport. It's not my cup of tea for sure. But if two adults want to beat the shit out of each other and they're not hurting anyone else in the process, then I say knock yourselves out (literally).

Animal fighting is a whole different ball of wax. The animals aren't given the opportunity to decide anything for themselves. They are bred, trained and forced to engage in bloodsport. Anyone who who does this to animals is a despicable human being and should rot in jail.

[loosey goosey]

51. Sorry...I obscured the issue by lumping in boxing...Just wanted to put it out there

as something that turns my stomach.

"Rot in jail?" Uh, not my view. I do believe that people can change. I certainly believe in forgiving people who do bad things which hurt others. I just think that someone like this needs a lot of counseling to get sensitive enough to appreciate why it's wrong.

[grace0418]

91. I may have gotten a little heated in my assessment.

I agree that people can be rehabilitated, but the subject just makes me so angry.

[verges]

144. And that counseling would

take a lot longer than 18 months!

[imdjh]

48. See, you just lost me. I like MMA.

Boxing does nothing for me, but I like MMA.

Bullfighting, dog fighting, cock fighting, those are all human on animal. The animals don't get to choose. Even if such battles might take place in nature, humans staging it for their amusement is barbaric. Humans CHOOSING to fight each other is another matter entirely. It's the difference between real rape and sex game rape.

[Butch350]

73. Is that cock fighting with chickens???

[imdjh]

41. I think it's just unfathomable that he's essential to anyone's team.

The man has been in jail, right? He's gotten older. He's been stressed out (and if he hasn't then there is another problem). And he's still prime meat for pro ball? Hard to believe.

[pitohui]

54. you believe all sociopaths should be channeled into crime rather than honest work?

i don't want to live in your world

i think you don't understand just how many sociopaths are out there, they are probably a good 5 percent of the population

deny the ability to earn a good honest living to all of them and unless you're willing to kill them all, then they will have no choice but to prey on the rest of us and life becomes a hell for the rest of us who just want peace

a sociopath is probably better fitted in many ways to the life of celebrity than you or i would be, since they have diff. boundaries, let them have it, i'd rather they be there than sticking a gun in my face at the corner convenience store -- because some kind of way a true sociopath WILL maintain his lifestyle

[fascisthunter]

66. please don't put words into my mouth

if ya have a point, make it, but don't frame it dishonestly like that.

BTW - you are living in my world, your world and his...

[Kalyke]

106. He can earn an honest living - but at the Wal-mart or something.

He doesn't have to earn it in a "profession" that children look up to.

[H2O Man]

63. Could you provide

the information that you base this diagnosis upon? Thanks.

[fascisthunter]

74. torturing and killing animals

you have to be pretty unempathic to do those those things, even if you have others do it for you. While I am unqualified to make a diagnoses, it's what I think based on what I have learned of sociopaths.

BTW... I said, I "think"....

great book on sociopaths: the Sociopath Next Door by Martha-Stout

[H2O Man]

94. Actually,

that book does not rank with the best books on the subject. If you are interested, I could recommend some that are. They make for interesting reading.

I'm not sympathetic to torturing and killing animals. Things like "dog fights" are repulsive. And I am definitely in favor of the arrest and prosecution of anyone involved in this sick behavior.

However, I think that it is important to look at the issue of this repulsive type of cruelty in the context of a cultural, learned behavior. Having had the "pleasure" of working with the forensic population, including numerous psychopaths, their cruelty towards animals is not an acceptable behavior among a cultural sub-group, whereas "sports" such as dog- and bull-fighting are. It is far easier to deal with a person who has participated in a cultural sub-groups' behavior -- and to have the individual learn why it is unacceptable to the larger society -- than with a person who is, as an individual, exhibiting sociopathetic tendencies.

I'm not taking any stance on the football player in question, in regard to his future in professional sports. I have mixed feelings, and definitely appreciate the outrage that many here have expressed about the sporting world's "money at any price" approach. However, I do think that it is important to recognize what is, and what is not, involved.

[fascisthunter]

105. Thank You H2O Man, You made me step back

and so did pitohui ....

I am very fascinated by this topic. I guess because it has touched me personally. I thankfully am not a sociopath, but have known a couple people in my life who were. I would be grateful if you could suggest some reading on this topic. I should read more and speak less....

Also, I am torn on this issue, for what do we do with those who are sociopaths. I do not suggest they be rounded up or anything of that sort. I just wish there was a cure for it, and know as of now there is no such thing. The concept of not being able to feel empathy is mind-blowing to me...

[kirby]

6. He served his time based on intent...

He wasnt charged with some accident, but something related to intentional. He served his time. He gets to start again.

[SoFlaJet]

7. no comparison-Plaxico's 'crime'

was that of being stupid. He didn't take that gun and point it in some body's face and pull the trigger. He had a loaded gun in his waist that went off and shot him in the leg. Dumb,yes but no comparison to what Vick or Donte did.

[joeybee12]

10. I think Plaxico's was worse than people are saying...he shouldn;t

have had that gun, he knew it was wrong...he could have killed someone instead of just hitting himself in the leg...it was stupid beyond belief.

[SoFlaJet]

15. Hey Joey

there was a teammate that got robbed after leaving that same club a few weeks earlier. Also, Burress' gun WAS registered-in Florida, just not in NY and you got to have it registered in NY if you want to carry. I have a little more sympathy for Plaxico anyway because I want the Jets to sign him. Oh yea and he beat the Patriots...

[joeybee12]

23. Can you hear me giving you the raspberry!

I wonder if Plaxico's sentence will reflect on the other problems he's had. Actually, his FL registration had expired about a year prior, and he said something like he didn't know he had to renew it.

[SoFlaJet]

40. I know I know

I see the Red Saux thingy down there now...hey nice new TE ya got there Joe-two TDs last night...where'd ya FIND this guy? And as for Burress? Yea a crime of stupidity

[joeybee12]

75. I think someone also went after him recently for not paying a bill

at a restaurant or something...something he didn't pay for months...frighteningly stupid.

[WI_DEM]

11. What do they say about people who torture and kill animals?

[lazer47]

20. 2 yrs to do without 25,000,000.00 a year,,he needs to do 4 yrs in

an Animal Shelter doing communtity service for nothing,,,,,

[Daveparts still]

59. Nothing!

I'm too busy trying to stop the people who torture and kill other humans!
What Vick Did was wrong and he knows it was wrong. He's done time in prison and lost his fortune, that should be enough.

I would wager that if you see a guy coming down the street that looks just like Michael Vick walking a dog, it ain't Michael Vick

[Obamanaut]

12. 'rec' nt

[MrScorpio]

13. I'm not apologizing for Michael Vick

He was wrong, he paid for that wrong and he as admitted so

He has sincerely asked for forgiveness. I'm trying to adhere to my better nature by forgiving him.

[joeybee12]

19. I think there needs to be a lot more time between his getting out and saying

he's sorry and proving he really is...words are cheap, and I think Vick is a sociopath...those types don't just change overnight.

[WillParkinson]

22. How do we judge sincerity? Mr. Bush looked into Mr. Putin's eyes and saw his soul...

I am not arguing whether Mr. Vick was sincere or not, I just ask how do we know when someone is sincere? Is it just a desire to believe they are or is there something else that tells us when someone is being up-front and honest with us?

[MrScorpio]

26. We gauge their words by their actions

If his actions don't own up to his words, then we'll know.

[joeybee12]

31. I agree with that...and again, it's intent...it takes more than just words

when someone does something so horrific...he held out and held out and held out and denied and denied and denied until he realized he was trapped.

[MrScorpio]

42. And it's in those times that some people have an epiphany

Which is something that he's acknowledged

I say, hold him to his word

[joeybee12]

69. Then you must hold allt he watergate burglars to their word also...

...they all came out "changed."

[WillParkinson]

35. And what actions has Mr. Vick taken that shows remorse?

Standing before people saying how sorry you are does not provide proof.

"On December 10, Vick appeared in U.S. District Court in Richmond for sentencing. Judge Hudson said he was "convinced that it was not a momentary lack of judgment" on Vick's part, and that Vick was a "full partner" in the dog fighting ring, and he was sentenced to serve 23 months in federal prison.<52> Hudson also noted that, despite Vick's claims that he accepted responsibility for his actions, his failure to cooperate fully with federal officials, coupled with a failed drug test and a failed polygraph, showed that Vick had not accepted full responsibility for "promoting, funding and facilitating this cruel and inhumane sporting activity".<46> Vick was assigned to a federal prison facility in Leavenworth, Kansas to serve his sentence.<53>" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Vick

He wasn't honest when he stood before the judge. He wasn't honest when he took the polygraph test.

Sorry. I see a possibly habitual liar. Actions speak louder than words. And I have seen no actions to show me he is anything other than what he always has been.

[Medusa]

14. It's all about the free passes that people get when they are famous

their fans will forgive them anything. It's a sad, sick commentary on our society today.

[SammyWinstonJack]

17. +1 nt

[SoCalDem]

16. deliberate cruelty to animals is an "un-mendable" character fault

some people are willing to overlook it.. It's just that simple. It's like child molestation, where the child is not killed...many will say "the child was not "injured", and will "get over it"..thank god he/she was not killed", but it's in their psyche forever, and no matter how much time the perpetrator spends in jail he will always be a child molester...just as an animal torturer will always "be" just that.

the ability to throw a ball is merely a skill they have,. it does not change who or what they are..

[Johonny]

120. You know in part of American society what Vick did

is perfectly ok. It seems odd to me some Americans live in a culture where dog fighting is perfectly acceptable form of underground entertainment, while in other parts of the country seem totally unaware this is a fact. My guess is if the rest of us learned that dog fighting isn't morally ok, that probably Vick can learn this too. It's possible Vick did what he did because he is a horrible crazy person. It's also possible pit bull fighting wasn't that big a deal in the part of society Vick grew up in. Sense I haven't seen an evaluation of Vick's mental state, it's not clear to me he will never be able to be rehabilitated.

[SoCalDem]

121. "parts, is parts"

:(

[WillParkinson]

18. Agreed!

People can change. Show me that you regret what you've done. Show me in more than words. I cannot forget, but I can forgive.

If you really have changed.

[Forkboy]

24. The Stallworth shit is unreal though.

Any regular Joe who did that would be fucked. He gets 30 days.

All this goes to show that it's nice to be rich and famous, and for more than being rich and famous.

[Auggie]

28. Totally

[Forkboy]

33. A Bruins player from years and years ago killed a woman in a DUI.

Craig MacTavish served a year, and that wasn't long enough in my opinion. 30 days is a joke, and an enormous insult to the family of the victim.

[Solomon]

65. Aw shit. the celebrity thing cuts both ways. Of course we

don't say anything about that do we. 'Course not.

I hope they get to the superbowl and he has to step in and win the thing, just to piss all the haters off.

He served his time and paid his fine, lost his money and reputation. Don't watch him play if you can't get over it.

[Forkboy]

77. Yes, being a millionaire is horrible.

[Auggie]

25. I'm displeased with the NFL

Okay, so he served his jail time. But he should not be allowed to play football -- lifetime ban.

[Goblinmonger]

30. We let people hunt

and we are a meat-eating society, yet everyone seems fine with that cruelty to animals.

Sure, what he did was against the law. He was found guilty, served his sentence, and now he is out. Should he not be allowed to vote, too, because his crime was so heinous?

And how do you know that he hasn't changed?

[robinlynne]

38. VIc strangled the dogs who didn't fight well enough. they died an agonizing death.

[Critters2]

43. And their struggling, their crying out, did not move him to empathy.

The man is a sociopath. But hey, he can run! Lets give him a lot of money! :eyes:

[Goblinmonger]

53. What about the cries of animals

at slaughterhouses? Why do those people get a pass? Because the meat of those animals tastes nummy?

[Critters2]

56. I'm veg*n. And I've worked long and hard against the meat industry.

Check my history. I'm consistent in this.


Nice try, though.

[Goblinmonger]

64. Why is it a nice try?

I am speaking about the attitude of society, not you specifically. I don't know you from Adam. I have assumed, though, from your stance on this issue that you are an animal rights person. As am I. I've been vegetarian for over 20 years. My point is that society gets all riled up over cruelty to animals they see as pets but don't care about the rest.

[Butch350]

67. Your statement is BS - and you even know it.

When dog fighting becomes legal and killing dogs that don't fight well
will be shipped to your home for dinner. (tastes yummy or nummy)

[Goblinmonger]

71. No

My point is that we make dog fighting illegal because we see dogs as pets. That's why we don't like it when cultures eat them. But when "non-pet" animals are equally tortured, we don't care.

That is what my statement is about.

[Butch350]

87. I'm dealing with a zenomorph...

Animal rights organizations are fighting every day to find more efficient and humane ways to
kill or slaughter the animals THAT THE POULATION USES AS A FOOD SUPPLY, and that's easy to research.

Other than a minority group of people who consider fido a delicacy - the killing of animals that are
COMPANION animals to humans are protected by the law.

You need to stop all that dumb-ass analogy to defend MV.

Did he kill companion animals, (pets), yes.
Did he do his time, and pay back society, yes
Does he deserve to work and earn a living at his profession, HELL YES.

Does he have my respect as a human being - F. NO!

[Goblinmonger]

95. I can live with that

And I'm not trying to defend MV. I agree completely with the last 4 lines of your post. My point is not to be a Vick apologist (thought I think he did the time and he can play if a team wants him--which one obviously does), but to try and show people that we hold a double standard about cruelty to animals.

[robinlynne]

128. They do NOt. worked my butt off to get prop 2 passed to end factory farms.

in the same way I work to help save abandoned dogs. no difference. cruelty is cruelty. Vics was cruelty only for cruelty's sake. he enjoyed it. That is the same as raping or torturing a child. and getting money from people who want to watch it. taking a life is terrible. doing a snuff film is MUCH worse.

[Goblinmonger]

49. My brother shot a deer with an arrow

that wasn't through the heart. It took off into the woods. Took my brother hours to find it. It probably took an agonizing hour for that deer to die. Why does my brother get a pass? Because dogs are pets?

[Butch350]

80. Maybe your brother needs another hobby he can master.

[Goblinmonger]

89. So by that reasoning

Vick is OK because he was pretty good at his hobby. Except his involved what our culture sees as pets so it isn't OK.

[redqueen]

81. Was he gonna eat the deer, or was he killing it cause he could no longer profit from it?

Sorry, I'm not one to agree that Vick should be tortured or die or no longer be able to do whatever job...

...but that analogy just reeks.

[Goblinmonger]

88. To me the ultimate question is about the torture of the animals.

Everyone seems to be upset because he tortured dogs. Hunters often "torture" the animals they hunt. Not many people seem to be upset about that.

So, it isn't the torture but profit motive?

[redqueen]

98. It's the entire context.

The motive for the torture as well as whether the torture was intentional could reasonably be cosnidered as mitigating factors.

So there's a couple of ways that analogy fails.

[Goblinmonger]

102. Well

I don't think the second way is valid. Hunters go out to kill. That is pretty intentional.

As to the first, we are back to my point. It isn't the torture so much as the reason. So it's the profit motive that is the problem and not the torture.

[redqueen]

103. Yes, they go out to kill, not torture.

Or did your brother intend to aim so that the deer wouldn't die quickly?

[Goblinmonger]

112. Now it is just a semantic argument.

Vick chocked the dog to death. Did he intend to torture or just to kill an animal? Hunters go out with weapons that may or may not kill immediately depending on a great number of factors. Trappers certainly don't intend to kill the animal quickly with their traps.

Look, I hate what Vick did. Long-time supporter of animal rights. But perhaps this incident can be something which allows people to see that we hold a double standard for those animals we deem pets and realize that a lot of animal cruelty goes on that we condone--and eat.

[redqueen]

119. No it isn't... it's about how we look at these different situations.

Vick of course intended to kill... but the methods he used aren't traditional and therefore so accepted. And I'll bet that most who champion animal rights also don't approve of using traps or possibly even hunting in general.

I hate what he did too, but I doubt anyone will see any glaring double-standard.

[robinlynne]

137. Thanks redqueen.

[robinlynne]

124. He does not get a pass from me!!

[Goblinmonger]

130. Nor me.

We're on the same team :hi:

[pitohui]

36. i get it just fine, kill a man, who gives a fuck, kill a dog, booga booga booga

i don't think vick set out to kill dogs, he set out to fight them, something that it isn't entirely clear why it would be morally wrong in a world where we're allowed to fight and therefore to injure and sometimes kill MEN -- i watch men fight and may have even placed a bet on a fight, how can i judge a man for fighting and betting on DOGS?

what he did was against the law, sure, but in the eyes of common sense, one dude killed a man and the other dude killed some dogs and at the end of the day, well, i can see where our society rates human life and it ain't too fucking high

the world is sad and complicated, vick did his time, i'm sorry it wasn't enough for you but i don't know what else you can ask of a man when the guy who killed a man driving drunk got only a few days in jail and the dog fighter got 20 months in leavenworth

how long do you think you'd get for fighting dogs? YOU'D get a ticket

how long do you think you'd get for killing a man whilst driving drunk? many, many years

that's the real issue and all the other PETA crap is just that, look at the shiny pretty distraction

the law is not fairly and evenly applied, and all this piling on vick is nonsense, he ain't a sympathetic character so he's fun to crap on, it's all abt the playing w. emotion

[Butch350]

68. Yep - you got it right.

[StillHopingForChange]

83. No - you don't get it...

The men in a fighting ring make a choice to be there - The dogs in a fighting ring are put there by blood thirsty men.

Thats a rather important difference!

[joeybee12]

101. Yup...you are right...and welcome!

:hi:

[joeybee12]

93. Let's talk about deliberatly drowning dogs, hanging them and electrocuting them

and letting them fight to the death. Or does that not register with you because you're so awe-struck with every single fuicking celelbrity there is.

[izzybeans]

37. Some of us are making a point about the rights of ex-convicts

not about Vick, who happens to be one.

Regardless of what you or I think about him personally, he has the same right as you and I to pursue his own interests - as should anyone who has served time for crimes and were paroled.

Whether anyone can "be inside his mind" is irrelevant to the rights of every citizen; even those who've had to serve time.

If you need a break that bad, perhaps you should take one.

[Critters2]

45. No one is guaranteed their old job after serving time.

That's one of the consequences of committing a crime...unless you're a pro athlete.

[scheming daemons]

90. You're guaranteed the right to apply for your old job, or one similar to it

...and if you can convince an employer to hire you, then bully for you.


That's all Vick did here.

[redqueen]

82. +1

[JCMach1]

50. I remember in the 1990's when a particuliarly infamous Nebraska player drug his GF

down two flights of stairs...

He played football against OSU the same week.

It's the same philosophy here.

[arcadian]

52. He'll fuck up again.

This time it'll probably be a dead prostitute.

[Critters2]

58. That's what I figure. Once a sociopath, always a sociopath. nt

[greguganus]

61. Hopefully the prostitute would have a CCW permit. n/t

[JPZenger]

57. Repetitive Intentional Cruelty vs. Stupidity

Many sports figures have done a stupid thing, often while they were drunk or strung out. I agree that Vicks crimes were worse because they were intentionally cruel and continued over a period of time.

[Fire1]

70. It doesn't matter if we know or don't know the extent of his

remorse. Vick has submitted that even he is not really aware of his 'intent' and as far as I'm concerned, irrelevant at this point.
The POINT is rehabilitation. Ed Schultz said it perfectly this a.m. and I paraphrase his sentiments. Part of rehabilitation is rejoining society as a constructive member and one of the ways of doing that is having a job. Pro football is his job. That's what he does for a living. He realizes he is getting that rare second chance that is all too uncommon in this country for convicted felons and the like and it will be up to him to PROVE that he has changed.

I can live with that, as I believe that SHOULD be the rule in this system rather than the exception, which most often is NOT the case.
Whether we're being played for fools or not is not for you to decide and I'm CERTAIN Vick couldn't give a rat's ass whether or not YOU give him a pass.

[petronius]

72. Everybody gets that. What you don't seem to get is that the 'torches and pitchforks'

mentality has no place in our society.

[Fire1]

78. Amen! n/t

[joeybee12]

104. And what you don't get is the nature of his crime...

...or are you so enamored with celebrities that it doesn't matter?

[petronius]

110. Two swings, two misses. Keep trying... (nt)

[Ignis]

113. So it's either pitchforks or a multi-million $ salary?

Surely Mr. Vick could find a job at his local animal shelter. I'd be happy to forward a few applications!

[petronius]

133. The salary he receives or the line of work he pursues is totally irrelevant (nt)

[Ignis]

134. So Vick should receive special treatment?

Because many other professions disallow ex-cons (particularly ex-felons) from re-entering their previous line of work.

[petronius]

136. Letting ex-cons get on with their lives should not be construed as 'special treatment'

Calling for additional indefinite punishment until he's met your unspecified standard of suffering is special treatment (and not in the good way).

If "many other professions" are excluding ex-cons without just cause then that's the problem - and insisting that Vick be put through the same unjust wringer is not the solution.

[Ignis]

138. There are NO jobs from which ex-cons should be excluded?

No special hoops they should have to jump through for jobs involving security, child care, banking, etc.? No waiting periods, no gun restrictions, nothing like that?

If that's truly how you feel, then I applaud your open and trusting heart. But that's certainly not the way things are in the real world, right now.

[petronius]

139. There's a phrase in my post you must have skipped: "without just cause"

I think that if an ex-con is excluded from a job or subjected to special scrutiny or restrictions, then there should be a specific job-related reason for doing so. I can think of no valid reason for excluding Vick from football based on his criminal history.

I've seen a bunch of posts on these threads arguing that Vick should be screwed over on the job front because other ex-cons are - that line of thinking is exactly backwards IMO...

[Raineyb]

129. Spot on!

:thumbsup:

[loyalkydem]

86. God

I'm getting sick of these type of post. What gives you to right to sit in judgment of the man? When will enough be enough? No thanks.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[loyalkydem]

99. I got a right

to be here just like you do. I just happen to beleive that its's completly unfair to go after a man that has served his time.

[Ignis]

114. Yeah, and don't you judge that nice Mr. Dahmer, either!

:eyes:

[Kalyke]

97. I posted that this morning.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6302009#6302312

[digidigido]

108. Let it go. He did a crime, he did the time.

[flvegan]

111. You know what, you're right.

He's also never really shown remorse for what he did to those dogs. He's also largely tried to portray his role in the dogfighting ring as just being the money man, which we know isn't true. He personally participated in the fights. He personally participated in killing some of the more unsuccessful dogs.

On his property, he had fences built so that his enterprise couldn't be seen from the street. On his property, he built a doggie "Gitmo" for what I suspect were confines to heal beat up dogs. He had 20 kennels professionally built. A building just for training.

But to so many, meh. He did his time, right? I'm sure that there'd be zero outrage from those same folks if in 5 years they hired a new defensing coach just out of prison after doing 25 years for molesting his children*. They did their time too.








*countdown started to the first response from some idiot suggesting I'm comparing dogfighting and child molestation...

[dropkickpa]

135. What I don't get is why a team would be willing to touch him

When he was involved in illegal gambling involving tens of thousands of dollars, illegal acquisition of performance enhancing drugs (for the dogs), and someone who, frankly, is just going to lower their merchandising sales. From a purely business standpoint, it's a very risky proposition.

Myself, I find him to be a morally repugnant piece of shit who deserves all the hateful invective that's heaped on him for the rest of his life. Fuck him in the ear.

[BlooInBloo]

116. MOAR PUNISHMENT! MOAR PAIN! MOAR!!!!

[Political Heretic]

117. He paid his debt to society. If you think he needed more punishment, then fight to change the laws

But I have strong feeling about how we treat people who were convinced of crimes, served their time and are released.

The feelings that force me to oppose refusing to allow persons previously convicted of a felony the right to vote are the same feelings that force me to oppose further "social sentencing" on a person who the state says has served time required.

If you think Vick did not serve enough time, that's a separate issue. But he's a free man now, with rights - and I protect those rights as much as I would protect my own. One of them, is to be free to use his skills and be employed by those willing to acquire his services.

My opinion is that sports leagues should only ban players for issues that directly effect the integrity of the sport. If Vick had participated in fixing NFL games, or something like that - he should be banned for life. But as far as social issues goes - once society says the man is free, in my book, he's free.

Remorse is irrelevant, "change" is irrelevant. I don't care about what Vick personally things or feels, I care about the principle.

[cynatnite]

123. He's paid for his crime. Period. n/t

[ncteechur]

125. EXACTLY--paid the penalty--he gets to go on with his life.

[ncteechur]

126. For those can't accept his apology--that is your problem not his.

While he is not my favorite player, never has been either in college or pro--he has done what society demanded.

[Critters2]

127. Wrong. He did what the state demanded.

Society will continue to make judgments.

[amapd2]

140. I'm willing to bet that years from now you will still be pissed at Vick

For some of you I think the only thing that Vick can do to prove that he is sorry is to drop dead. The man served his time and he receives a second chance. There is nothing he is able to do to make some of you happy. I wonder why some of you fail to mention the fact that this man is a father. Those children deserve a second chance as well. This man is receiving death threats and you cannot tell me that this has no impact on his children. Where there are sane rational people there are nut jobs. Some that claim they life so much (the life of animals at least) that they threaten the life of another human being. You can go on judging this man for the rest of your life you have that right. I can understand to an extent but I'm starting to get the feeling that this is not about the animals.

[BlooInBloo]

143. NO! The apple doesn't fall from the tree! Torture his children too!!!!!

MOAR PAIN for *everyone* named "Vick"!!!!

[DailyGrind51]

141. If Vick was an average working stiff, no one would care.

A lot of ex-cons can't get a second chance, especially in this economy, but we should feel sorry for Vick just because he makes a lot of money play a game that high school kids play for fun?

[Fire1]

142. You CANNOT prove intent! Failed post. n/t

[Balbus]

145. "...then he gets NO PASS from me."

But I bet he gets one or two from McNabb before the season's over.

[xocet]

146. Irrelevant OP...

It does not matter if he gets a pass from you. He served his time.

I hope that he has truly changed his attitude, that he is successful again and that he makes it back into society without lots of judgmental people claiming that he has not suffered enough.

Good luck to Michael Vick.