My request to all of you.....

[bobbolink]

As you may remember, I posted a while back, letting you know that I hoped it was Biden who got the VP nomination. So, please remember we're not enemies, OK, and that you don't have to automatically scream at me because there is something that hurts me personally, as well as so many others...OK?

I just heard part of the Biden speech on Randi, and was heartsick at one part of it. We poor folk in this country are constantly hit with the Calvinistic stuff in this society that it's our fault, and that if we would just try, we wouldn't be such failures. Besides being a false meme, it's terribly hurtful.

Randi kept referring to Biden and Obama as having "hardscrabble" lives. In his speech, Biden referred to his mother often repeating that people could be anything they wished in this country, if they would just be willing to work hard. It hurts me just to type that. It is patently untrue, and something that we are HIT with so much, and drives us down.

I fear that this is going to be the constant refrain now, especially if Obama is elected, and I respectfully request of all of you supporters to UNDERSTAND the faux nature of this, and how it hurts us, and to continue to try to raise awareness of this.

We poor folk are having a hard enough time as it is trying to keep our chins off the floor in despair, and being hit with this over and over from our own side adds depression (or in some cases, anger) to that despair.

I hope you will open your hearts and understand what I'm saying about this.

This is a destructive 'Murkin meme that needs to go away the same as the "n" word!

Thank you!

[1corona4u]

1. I'm editing...

since you can't answer the question. Sorry!:-)

[bobbolink]

2. Not being black, I can't answer to that.

Now, can you respond to what I asked?

Thank you....

[1corona4u]

8. Well, I am not sure what it is you are asking but,

if it's the "work hard and ye shall prosper thing", then I would have to say it's not a given. Lots of people work hard and never get anywhere. I'm not rich, and financially, I'm in the same spot I was 20 years ago, if you adjust for inflation/falling wages/lost business/higher taxes, and insurance.

I was kind of surprised that most of the speeches given this week carried that same message, including Michelle's, who probably repeated it 3-4 times.

I think it's by design unfortunately, but they don't want people to just give up.

That's my take on it.

I don't know....really. I have a hard enough time keeping my head above water these days. My business has really been bad this year, because no one has any disposable income. I looked for a PT job, and guess what. I can't find one, because in my area, most of the jobs require you to SPEAK SPANISH. THAT, pisses me off. I can't get a job in my own god damn country, because I don't speak a foreign fricken language.

So, while I sympathize with people who are worse off than me, I think everything is relative. I may have to close my business, and move away from here if I ever want to make more than 30K a year, considering my bills are $4,000 a month, an that's just for living expenses. I spend no money on myself, and barely any on my house.

Times are tough, but I think they will be changing soon. Hopefully, before I, and others go under, and more homes are lost.

[jillan]

3. I understand what you are saying, and no I won't hold that against you.

But, I want you to have hope. Because history has shown that when the middle class is prosperous,
it helps people who are living in poverty, as more jobs and opportunites will be created.

I truly believe that Barack Obama, and Joe Biden, care alot about the middle class.

And what has been so hard about the last 8 years is that all they cared about with the very rich.

Things are going to get better. I really believe that.

[bobbolink]

5. sigh.... can I speak honestly and from the heart....?

Or will it only be a typical DU slamfest if I do?

[jillan]

7. We are usually pretty kind around here.

Say whatever you feel comfortable saying.
I can't answer for everyone that posts in this group, but I can tell you that several members are going thru some pretty tough times right now.

[dajoki]

48. Hope is intangible...

I want to see actual policy changes and priorities get on the right track. Yes, maybe when the middle class is restored things might get better, but I don't see any sign of that happening, besides there is hardly any middle class remaining, while the poor get poorer and become forgotten. It would be nice to help restore the middle class, but how about helping the people who are so desperately poor that they will never become part of the middle class. They are also Americans and there is no excuse in this country that they must be left to fend for themselves. To me that is priority number one and I have to agree with OP, I see or hear nothing that will change that.

[PatSeg]

4. I understand

That jumped out at me too, as there were times in my life that no amount of "hard work" would have lifted me out of poverty and destitution. The "hard work" meme doesn't take into consideration other factors such as illness, environment, education, etc. It is a complex subject that can't be handled effectively in a political speech.

Sadly, this is predominately a political statement, meant to attract people who are reluctant to trust this ticket.

You're always welcome over here!

[bobbolink]

6. Thank you.

I hope that you understand it enough from your own experience that you will be willing to speak out.

ONLY when enough speak out on this, will the awareness change.

We don't tolerate the "N" word, and we shouldn't tolerate false memes that hurt despairing people.

:hi:

[PatSeg]

11. I've tried for years to make people understand

but there are always those who cling to that American hard work ethic and will not hear otherwise. As I get older, I realize that some of that comes from fear, fear that "there but for fortune go you or I". That is why people often avert their eyes from the handicapped and the homeless. At some level they KNOW it could happen to them.

Right now this ticket is trying to capture the blue collar, working class vote, and as such, they will say the things those people want to hear. Ironically those are the people who are slipping into often hopeless poverty because of a job loss or medical condition. There is no safety net for them.

[bobbolink]

14. I can imagine that you have---there is a deep resistance, as you can see here.

I have written that it would be traumatic for 'murkins to let go of that "everyone can make it" meme.

BUT... it was also traumatic to get rid of slavery, Jim Crow, and women as chatel.

We can and must agitate against this damaging theme, and I thank you for speaking up!

"Right now this ticket is trying to capture the blue collar, working class vote,"

EXACTLY! And poor people are invisible, and yet then the DEMS scream when poor people either don't vote, or get caught up in the wedge issues.

We MUST become conscious of this, just as we did other divisive issues!

Thanks again!

:hug:

[PatSeg]

21. You're welcome

We've had conversations in the past about these issues and I have found them enlightening. I'm sure there will be many more.

There are Democratic politicians who DO care about the issues of the poor, but they are limited as to how they can express their ideas. There is a strong anti-welfare front out there, which keeps defeating the Democratic party. It took the Great Depression to get us minimum wage and social security. People became comfortable and memories of the hard times faded and a social conscience was replaced with the self-reliance meme. How many times I've heard some self-righteous SOB say, "if I can do, they can too." No compassion or understanding at all until the day comes when some misfortune befalls them.

I hope the day will come when we value one another as human beings and all people have the right to dignity.

[bobbolink]

24. I know that it's popular to blame it all on the RW, but that is not only not true, but dangerous.

My experience right here on DU shows just how little priority poverty is with the "progressives", which is why I'm asking this of all of you. YOU are the ones who will push for this. Otherwise, we will again be lost.

I recently heard Jim Wallis speak while he was here for the convention, and he told a story that I think quite accurately portrays the situation:

I man had fallen into the Potomac about 100 feet from shore, and was in dire straights. Some Republicans heard his cries and threw him a 50 ft rope, telling him, "The rest is up to you".

The man was going down, and the Democrats heard what was happening, and threw him 200 ft of rope, but dropped their end.
***************************************

Unless and UNTIL "progressives" start demanding on behalf of us who are suffering, nothing will change, it doesn't matter WHO is in power.

We MUST realize that the Dems aren't going to automagically save this issue!

[Muttocracy]

9. my gut reaction (haven't read all the other responses)

is that Biden couches it in terms of his FAMILY helping him get by in tough times, helping each other out, and at the Delaware state event the other morning he was tearing up thanking them for helping him and the boys through tough times. So I take it as his dad's mantra of "get up" when things knock you down, but also that it takes a community. Somewhere in his speech he talked about all of us getting back up as a nation.

My 2c though I can't speak for him, and it doesn't mean your impressions were wrong.

on edit - what I mean is that it's not the GOP mantra of "individual responsibility" and both Biden and Obama believe in government as a force for leveling the playing field and giving people a hand up (GI bill, veterans benefits, tax structure, public education, etc.)

[bobbolink]

12. What I'm saying is that THAT LANGUAGE will come back to bite us poor folk.

I know from experience.

None of that rationalization matters... it's the pain that is inflicted on us.

I hope you will step in my shoes, look at the world from my eyes, and understand what I'm saying.

Just as we would for other "others".

[Muttocracy]

16. I think we're talking past one another and you assume I can't relate.

My Appalachian grandparents still had an outhouse in the 1980s, and I'll leave it at that.

[maryf]

17. Its exactly like the GOP Mantra

But couched as a mantra of creative visualization and positivity, and "working through karma" that many liberals are using to shift the blame onto the victim of socio-economic injustice vs. the perpetrator/oppressor. A way to avoid the responsibility of helping others, "poor guy, if he'd only imagine better". Its the distortion of service and selflessness in many philosophies that is creating a selfishness and acquisitiveness that was not as prevalant when Joe's family was helping him out. Sadly I do not see the leveling of the playing field in the near future regardless of which party wins, not that I don't hope.

[Muttocracy]

18. I see it as calling us to help others, not avoiding it at all. nt

[maryf]

35. I am truly glad you do...

So many take it other ways!! and they're the ones doing harm! keep your heart big! :)

[bobbolink]

20. You have it sooo right, maryf!

And you've brought in so many "current" philosophies that make it even worse.

It's NOT what the intention was, it's how ignorant people HEAR it and knee-jerk a response to it.

Isn't it interesting that it wouldn't be a struggle to understand this at all if it was a slam about Jews, or Indians, etc?

Thanks... you've added an important dimension!

:loveya:

[PatSeg]

25. Good point

I think the "intention" is essentially good, but people will misuse it to avoid being responsible for others, often spouting Christian dogma at the same time. And it was Jesus who admonished us to care for one another, especially the least among us.

[bobbolink]

28. That, of course, is true... but it's so much more than that....

IT's what we, as 'Murkins "hear" because we've been programmed to hear it!

I think that bears repeating, because it's a deeply sewn cultural meme: IT's what we, as 'Murkins "hear" because we've been programmed to hear it!

People don't even realize the fault in it, because we hear it so much from the time we're little. And never stop to think how it sounds to those who HAVE worked damned hard and fall through all the many cracks anyway!

At the risk of stepping on someone's toes, this is the kind of stuff that Oprah keeps promoting, and she certainly isn't Right Wing!

"And it was Jesus who admonished us to care for one another, especially the least among us. "

Absolutely, as do all the other major religions. Even, I'm told by a Buddhist friend, Buddhism.

Given that this country prides itself on being "faith-based", it's time to remind others that our cultural memes are sometimes in conflict with what we espouse to believe.

[PatSeg]

22. Wow, that was a mouth full!

Excellent observation.

[bobbolink]

30. yeah, maryf's astute that way!

She's one of those who makes ya think...

And I have the headaches to prove it!

:hi:

[maryf]

33. I'll send aspirin next time I post!!

:D

[maryf]

34. Thank you!

I have some good teachers around here!

[jillan]

10. I'm sitting here thinking about what you said and

was wondering if you thought of emailing the campaign with your thoughts.
I'm sure you are not alone in your feelings.:hug:

[bobbolink]

13. Thank you. And, yes, I'm SURE I'm not alone!

However, me, as one person, especially a poor and homeless person, gets ignored.

I'm asking ALL of you to push in this way, on behalf of those of us who are unseen and unheard.

We would thank you.

[jillan]

15. I am here for you, friend.

[bobbolink]

19. Thank you so much.....

.....because *THAT'S* the only true hope there is...

:hug:

[CrispyQ]

23. You'll get no crap from me.

"If you work hard enough you can accomplish anything."

I think that is a meme that was certainly more true in the past than it is today, but was never entirely true.

We used to have a real social safety net, not the thread bare thing that masquerades as one today. Our taxes used to support our commons & our communities, not the MIC. We had tax laws that were progressive & not punitive toward labor. We had laws that protected labor instead of benefiting just the corporations. I believe all those things helped everyone & it was easier to work hard & get ahead. But even then, there was no guarantee. Now, without those things, it's harder & harder to dig out of a hole & more & more people are falling in.

[bobbolink]

26. Thanks for getting it!

In the midst of all the hoopla and joy, I hope you will remind others of this, and speak out.

We need your voice!

:yourock:

[CrispyQ]

40. I frequently post about this book:

"All Together Now: Common Sense for a Fair Economy"
by Jared Bernstein

This is a great little book! Bernstein talks about the YOYOs vs the WITTs. YOYO = Your On Your Own (Obama used the phrase "Your on your own" last night several times.) WITT = We're In This Together.

Basically he talks about the social safety net & how it is cheaper for all of us to pitch in & provide a shared social safety net for everyone, than for each of us to provide our own. However, what we have now is a bunch of greedy assholes, who can easily provide their own net & could give a fuck if others have a net. They certainly don't want to contribute to a community net.

George Lakoff has also written some good books on the subject of conservative world view vs. progressive world view. He discusses the different morality of conservatives vs progressives, using a family analogy to make his points. Nothing is black & white, but generally speaking, conservatives believe in a strict father family - the father (definitely male based) strictly rules the family. Obedience is key; there is no questioning the father & harsh punishment is dealt out when one goes against him. Progressives tend to be nurturing; both parents guide & counsel the family with love & kindness, using the example of their actions to teach their children.

The strict father types have been raised to be obedient to authority. They believe that if you do what authority tells you, that is moral & by doing so, you will be prosperous. Therefore, if you are not prosperous, it is because you are not moral & you deserve your lot in life. What a mean spirited way to look at your fellow humans! But you can see it just about every day in our society. It explains how these evangelical types, who tell their followers that God wants them to be rich, resonate with so many people. It provides them with the justification to turn their backs on those less fortunate. "If those people were moral like me, they wouldn't be in this mess." Someone above posted something about that old saying, "There but for the grace of god, go I" & how people don't want to acknowledge that we are all susceptible to catastrophe. Somehow we need to tap into that - not with fear, but with compassion.

I don't know if you have access to a library, or know friends who may have these books. Both authors are worth the time to read.

We have come to value the individual over community so much so, that our communities are in danger of no longer supporting the type of society that provides us the ability to seek out the type of life that fulfills us as individuals. It isn't that we don't have community, it's that our sense of community has become increasingly inclusive - we no longer include those who are different from us or those we don't understand or those that we dislike. Physical proximity has little to do with community any more & you can see how destructive that attitude has been in our cities & towns across the country.

I don't know your personal situation, but I am sorry that our country, which prides itself on being the greatest nation, is so heartless. We need more empathy in this country. We are working against a powerful, greedy, right wing propaganda machine that has many religious leaders on it's side. I feel somewhat hopeful that people are waking up. However, it saddens me that people don't seem to wake up until they are personally feeling the pain.

[PatSeg]

27. You know Bobbolink

wherever you go, you generate incredible conversations!

[bobbolink]

29. I'm sorry.

:rofl:

:hug:

[PatSeg]

31. Yeah............

Can't please everyone!!!!

[susanwy]

32. It is a sense of entitlement that is partly to blame.

Now, don't jump at that, let me explain. I attended a conference this summer and the Keynote was a man named Dr. Peter H. Raven (Renowned Botanist and Environmentalist). It wasn't the message of our "environment is vanishing" and being destroyed that touched met it was this statement (and I'm paraphrasing):

---------
We can't all be special or exceptional. In this country, where we consume most to the world's resources, we all think we are entitled to that bigger house, better car, a place to vacation, and a clean environment in our backyard. And we export this entitlement to the rest of the developed world (China is next). But, what we are doing is condemning the poor of the world with this manifest destiny. We are forgetting that the world cannot sustain us all being special. Most of the world's population live on dollars or pennies a day and abject poverty is the norm, not the exception, even in parts of our own country. We, who are blessed to be more fortunate than others, must stop our consumption, our sense of entitlement and live more simple lives, or we are doomed and we will continue to live on the misery of others.
---------

I have thought a lot about what he said. It is not government alone that will lift everyone up, or and determination alone that will lift an individual up, it is coming to the realization that we can't all have it all. No leader today I know of would dare touch that, they want the "American dream" back, but what it will take is a "world dream" in which we all live in smaller houses so we can all have a roof over our head and we all ride or take public transportation because we can't all keep driving cars, we grow our own food and support sustainability locally and a hundred other things that will allow us to freely share our dwindling recourses in the growing world population to survive. Will there still be "exceptional" people who have more, yes, but they should be judged by what they give back, not how much they have. To whom much is given, much is expected. - Luke 12:48

Can I change? I don't know. I already drive a 10 year old car, live in the same house my parents used to live in, work from home when I can and drive as little as possible, grow my own garden and try to conserve, reuse and recycle. I'm thankful for my family and my life (as I once almost lost it). But, I am not hopeful, despite Obama, that we, as a human race, will have any kind of realization even close to what Dr. Raven was trying to tell us. And believe it or not, many people left Dr. Raven's speech and complained he was "lecturing us" and trying to "make us feel guilty". They totally missed the point.

Peace,

SusanWY

[maryf]

36. You go girl!!

Great post SusanWY, you get it!! Thank you!!:applause:

"what you do to the least of my brethern you do unto me" Mathew 25

[susanwy]

37. Jezz

Sorry for some of my obvious typos! I've been up late a lot this week and I must be tired.

Susan :)

[PatSeg]

39. Its been an exciting week

and I've been up late every night. I don't want to miss anything!

[PatSeg]

38. What a great conversation!

Thank you for your insights - very thought provoking. You are on the money about general American attitudes. I've seen it so many times in people around me. A lack of courtesy and consideration is so common. Some people took the "self-help" era too literally and think being more demanding is assertive, when it is actually rude and obnoxious.

And you're right, a false sense of entitlement overrides their commonsense. They either can't or won't see the bigger picture.

[bobbolink]

44. I agree, tsegat01---these are the things that are so central, but are so by-passed.

We spend so much time refuting the RW, and so little time and energy really listening to each other, and discussion the MEAT of the issues!

I'm glad you're here!

[bobbolink]

45. "think being more demanding is assertive, when it is actually rude and obnoxious. "

Of course, when poor people start demanding JUSTICE, then it's called rude and obnoxious... well, actually, called a lot worse than that!

We just "don't know our place".

:grr:

[CrispyQ]

41. To whom much is given, much is expected. - Luke 12:48

No one wants to hear that. We want it all without giving anything back in return. We've become a nation of takers. I'm sad, but not surprised, to hear that people walked out on Dr. Raven. I wonder how much longer the rest of the world will put up with us & our spoiled brat mentality? If their economies were not tied to our own, I suspect we would see extremely harsh attitudes & action against America, especially after the boosh years.

[bobbolink]

43. ONe of the problems with that entitlement mentality is that it's hardly ever confronted.

Entitled people are pandered to politically, with the Dems as much as the Reps (an article in this morning's paper about the Mayor soothing the ruffled feathers about a multi-millionaire who had to wait in a long line with the riff-raff to get into the Mile High stadium last night just underscores what I'm saying).

People with an entitlement attitude aren't confronted about it in churches... they need the entitled $$$ for their building funds, etc.

We on the bottom can't confront it, because we're called whiners.

:shrug:

"Jesus makes Marx sound conservative." Tony Campolo

[bobbolink]

42. "even in parts of our own country" It's so amazing that even after Katrina, this is still a

surprise to people; still an afterthought.

That dovetails with what I posted... that this Dem meme of "I made it, so can you" will bite those of us who are already being bitten on a daily basis.

ONLY when Dems get back to their original purpose, and thing FIRST of those of us on the bottom, SECOND of the middle income people, and only THIRD of the well-to-do, will ANY of this change.

I'm constantly discouraged and depressed that it even must be MENTIONED, let alone that it's controversial, that what Biden said will HURT us.

:cry:

[maryf]

46. It is very sad...

that folks must be constantly reminded that socio economic injustice is behind the plight of so many, not any choices they made!:cry:

[bobbolink]

47. And, for the most part, those reminders fall on deaf ears....

:cry:

And the resulting deaths don't even matter....