--Just wondering, is Liberty dead in this country, or did it ever exist?--

[1corona4u]

Liberty;

autonomy: immunity from arbitrary exercise of authority: political independence
freedom of choice; "liberty of opinion"; "liberty of worship"; "liberty--perfect liberty--to think or feel or do just as one pleases"; "at liberty to choose whatever occupation one wishes"
personal freedom from servitude or confinement or oppression


Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution;
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

[jillan]

1. That's a hard one.

I feel that our liberties were put on hold for the last 8 years, but I feel - or should I say hope - that things will get better under an Obama administration.

Yet - rights that were given to people were just taken away.

It will be interesting to revisit this question in 8 years.

[1corona4u]

2. I meant specifically 'liberty' as I noted...

not 'rights' per say....I guess I want to drill down to just liberty as I defined it. Freedom to choose, freedom of opinion, etc. Especially freedom from excessive authority.

[jillan]

3. Well - I don't think we'll ever have complete liberty because there

are rules we need to live by - there are laws that can be enforced.
For example - just take freedom of speech. You cannot show up just anywhere and speak your mind.
Your actions could be interpreted by law as distruptor.

[1corona4u]

4. Exactly, so that rules out freedom of speech and liberty in that instance...

I guess the core of my question is, how is it possible to have true liberty, while respecting others liberty as well. (laws aside) Something I have been thinking about as I am working today...I don't think there is such a thing....one exercising their 'liberty' may cancel out someone elses 'liberty'. If the government steps in to support ones particular liberty, they may automatically cancel out any others who oppose it-- that 'liberty' to be, act, think, differently. Hope that made sense.....

[CrispyQ]

5. Individual vs collective -- there is the problem!

We are individuals within a collective. Therefore, none of us has complete liberty within the collective. There will always have to be some compromise.

If you define true liberty as "to think or feel or do just as one pleases," then no, true liberty never existed in our country. One can think & feel what they please, but once it becomes action, then we are all bound by our collective definition of acceptable conduct. One's liberty stops when it harms another's well being or when it steps on another's liberty. And therein is the key. Liberty must be tempered with respect toward others who believe differently. Therefore, because we live in a collective, true liberty can only exist within a standard of behavior that is accepted by the collective.

The problem is, there are times when the collective code of conduct needs to be challenged. So unfortunately, we cannot shut down those who we believe are extremists, those who want everyone to live by their rules of conduct, groups who do not accept the collective definition of correct conduct. So while I condemn the anti-choice & anti-gay marriage crowd for their lack of tolerance, I realize that, in the past, it was exactly these types of groups who fought for equal rights for blacks & still fight for these rights for women.

Our forefathers were right. Democracy is not something that you fight for & win & then sit back & enjoy. You have to fight for it every fucking day!

[PatSeg]

6. Very well said

It is an evolving process and some day people will look back at this moment in history the way we look back at the 60's, as they try to overcome some unforeseen injustice against a minority that may not even exist yet.

There will always be battles to fight and win.

[1corona4u]

7. That's so true.

Those that voted to support the ban, probably did so, to exercise their 'liberty' of their own opinion/thinking for the definition of marriage, and the gays are the ones who are left out in exercising their liberties. It's that someone will always have to 'give', and it's not always going to be fair.

(sigh..)