Reply #182: I don't know if that's the argument you want to be making there... [View All]

[IrateCitizen]

My point is truth is truth even before it is proven.

I've met many a fundie who use a similar line to justify their beliefs (which, for the record, I do NOT agree with). When you start making pronouncements like truth is simply truth, it's a slippery slope.

Note -- in no way am I attempting to compare you to a Fundie, I'm just pointing out the danger in adopting arguments like that.

I've seen through this thread that I've pissed off a lot of self-described atheists. I'm not going to apologize, because my whole shitstorm started in response to one poster specifically, and a lot of others seem to have joined in a little later in the conversation and inferred that I was attempting to label them or denigrate them in some way -- and I can't say I helped to de-fuse the situation, either.

You said earlier that you believe in love. Well, guess what -- as a "theist", that's what I believe in as well. The best description of "God" I can come up with is a kind of unifying consciousness that encompasses everyone and everything, that makes all live interconnected, and is the closest thing to a manifestation of pure and infinite love. But, since I also believe (and believe being the key word in all of this) that this consciousness exists primarily outside of our physical senses, it is not something that can be proven nor disproven, and I'm not going to waste my time trying to do so one way or the other. Also, I identify myself as a Christian not because I believe in the divinity of Christ, but because I believe in the message he taught, as outlined in the Gospels. I also think that the Gospels, as decided upon by the Council of Nicea, were woefully incomplete, as they did not include the gnostic gospel of St. Thomas (one I very much identify with) nor the gospel of Mary Magdaline (seen as the most insightful one by many theological scholars).

What is my point in all of this? For those of us who are self-professed "people of faith", or definitions of "God" and "faith" are widely varying things. And our beliefs also come out of the experiences we have in life, and little else. Therefore, the last thing I want to do is to invalidate someone else's beliefs, because in doing so I am, in effect, invalidating their entire life experience to this point. By the same token, when someone with a differing view says that their way is "the only logical way" or dismisses my beliefs as a "fairy tale" (and yes, I've seen those descriptions many times, including on this thread by the poster I initially responded to), then they are effectively invalidating my entire life experience in the process, which can be perceived in no other way than insulting and sanctimonious.

For the vast, vast majority of us here, regardless of what we believe, that kind of division is completely unnecessary. Is that something that we can at least agree upon?