Asians propose Windows alternative

[Nottingham]

Asians propose Windows alternative




SEATTLE -- A plan by Japan, China and South Korea to develop an alternative operating system to Microsoft's Windows software would raise concerns over fair competition, the world's No. 1 software maker said Friday.
Japan, the world's second largest economy, made a proposal at an Asian economic summit this week to build an inexpensive and trustworthy open-source operating system that would be based on a system such as Linux, which can be copied and modified freely.

"We'd like to see the market decide who the winners are in the software industry," Tom Robertson, Microsoft's Tokyo-based director for government affairs in Asia, told Reuters. "Governments should not be in the position to decide who the winners are."

Robertson said Microsoft had a "direct and open line of communication" with Japan's government over software security, standards and development.

more...
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/business/2084823


"But Japan's trade minister, Takeo Hirunama, took a different tack this week by raising security concerns over Microsoft's software."

China Japan and all the Asian countries don't TRUST Microsoft
I wonder WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :bounce:
Oh and the Quote of the day

"Governments should not be in the position to decide who the winners are

I just LMAO hysterically on that ONE with Bush in office! :bounce:

[grantdwilliams]

1. If I were in control of Microsoft...

I'd pull out of Japan, China, and South Korea immeadiately.

[Nottingham]

4. Wait a Minute He is Outsourcing Jobs to China

Pull Out He is going IN! But doesn't he know thats a catastrophe waiting to blow up in his face :nuke:

[grantdwilliams]

5. Uh... what?

I wasn't talking about what "he" (I guess you mean the head of MSFT) is actually doing. I'm talking about what he should be doing.

[Nottingham]

10. Yes Grant exactly He should be repairing His Untrustworthy Image

and yes Pull Out of Asia

but ya know thats where the Money is right Now
and Greed is a Powerful force

:bounce:

I feel like Microsoft has been caught with their hand in the cookie jar and Now they will be spanked

:bounce:

And Welcome to DU GrantWilliams Nice to meet you! :bounce:

(And Yes Grant! I mean Bill Gates when I said HE)

[grantdwilliams]

16. What are you talking about?

All your little blurb said was that the governments of S. Korea, China, and Japan are planning on creating a new OS to compete with Windows. What's all this crap about MSFT being greedy and hands in cookie jars?


If you ask me, (rational) greed is a good thing. And besides, MSFT built much of that cookie jar.

[Nottingham]

18. Well I guess my concern is if we have just Microsoft

and it controls all the computers in the World that is kinda scary thought and Asia sees that they can't allow that

Missile Defenses Banks and other major Industries have been sabotaged by Viruses and Blasters and thats a major weakness of Microsoft

We haven't heard MicroSoft defend itself on this flaw yet

I can't wait for Bill to give an answer

:bounce:

[grantdwilliams]

21. Microsoft doesn't control my OS..

They lost that right when I bought it from them.


On another note, I think it would be a great thing that China's communications infrastructure is vulnerable. It's an evil nation that has no moral right to exist.

[StandWatie]

24. !!!!

Seig frickin Heil, man!

Whoa!

[grantdwilliams]

25. Seig Heil?

Is that a National Socialist German Workers Party Reference?

Certainly if I were a NAZI I wouldn't want to destroy a potential allie like communist/socialist China would I?

[StandWatie]

28. your revisionist history is appaling

Hitler was the first Cold Warrior.

[grantdwilliams]

29. What's a cold warrior?

All I'm saying is that Hitler thought that it was a good idea for the individual to sacrifice him/herself to the group. So did Mao. And they both founded their regiemes on the same principle.

Communism, socialism, and facism are all simply different flavors of collectivism.

[StandWatie]

31. ummm, yeah..

You know "Cold Warrior", he hated communists just like you, and talked about evil nations that had no right to exist, and right wing retards here in the US backed him up on it because they were red-baiters to. If he was that "socialist" you wouldn't have historical figures like Henry Ford and such backing him.

[grantdwilliams]

33. He was a Cold Warrior because he hated communists?

Remember that whole World War 2 thing? Where the USSR and NAZI Germany fought? That wasn't all that cold.

Yeah, Hitler hated communists. But not because he was opposed to communism. The Soviets just were competition.

That's like saying that because one street gang hates another street gang then the first street gang isn't a street gang.

It's wrong to label certain nations evil and wish to see them destroyed or changed? Then I'm sure you would have said the same thing in defense of the the NAZI regime correct?

As for the Henry Ford thing. I just recall him being an anti-semite. Not a NAZI sympathizer. But even if he did have a soft spot for National Socialism, it's only because he wasn't a philosophically consistent capitalist.

[termo]

136. no

communist and socialist were arrested from Feb 1933 in germany (after the burning of the reichstag), it wasn't only a "competition".

[0rganism]

139. better go back and reread that license agreement, bro

You know, the one where you clicked "accept" at the bottom of a heap o' mumbo jumbo when you installed the software? That mumbo jumbo has some spicey gumbo hidden within.

Your "control" isn't as complete as you might suppose.

[hel]

145. Actually..

you didn't buy anything, you just bought the license to use it. Read your EULA.

But you are right that MS does not control our OSes, it is quite out of control. :)

[david_vincent]

147. just wait...

Wish I could agree with you, but there's a million lawyers I'd rather agree with.
As for M$ controlling your OS, just wait until you see their next OS. If you use it, you will *NOT* be in control of your computer. Just wait, it'll be 2005 when it comes out. How you use your computer will not be up to you.
Fond of MP3s, anyone...?

[AndyTiedye]

144. Elections Too

> Well I guess my concern is if we have just Microsoft
>and it controls all the computers in the World that is kinda scary thought...
>...Missile Defenses Banks...

and VOTING MACHINES. :-(

[barbaraann]

42. Here is the dictionary.com definition of greed.

An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth

I do not think "greed is good."

[grantdwilliams]

45. Semantics, semantics...

Alright... just for you.... I'll say that I think that rational self-interest should be one's highest moral purpose.

[mbperrin]

48. You getting this stuff

from Robert Heinlein?

Rational self-interest has got nothing to do with morals per se.

[grantdwilliams]

51. Never read any Heinlen...

It doesn't huh? Well, then if there's no incentive to be moral then why be moral? For other's people's benefit perhaps? But then wouldn't it make them immoral to accept your generosity since it would benefit them?


Self-interest is the basis of all rational value, and thus, all rational morality.

[mbperrin]

54. That phrase is vintage

Heinlein, so maybe you picked it up from a fan.

If you need incentives to be moral, then would you agree that immorality is the natural state of humans?

If immorality is the natural state, who will offer incentives for an unnatural act? I mean, without unnatural incentives, how did anyone ever think of morality to start with?

If no incentives can be offered, how can this morality ever come into being?


It's a chicken and egg problem.

If you're getting this rational self-interest stuff from Economics 101, the more common phrase is informed self-interest.

[grantdwilliams]

82. This is what I think...

To use your terminology, yes, I think immorality is humanity's natural state. But I consider immorality to be the negation of objective value, and morality fundamentally the creation of objective value.

Since an individual requires certain things to continue to live, he or she must take certain actions. Since an individual's body is a very fundamental value, to lay down and die is necessarily immoral.

I believe that life is the standard of all value.

What is in support of human life, is of value, and what is not, is a disvalue or a non-value. The pursuit of a non-value (for example, a rain dance) is a disvalue.

The incentive to live is a chosen one. It is chosen by each and every individual each and every day. How often or to what degree it is a fully concious choice is another issue.

Also, I do not differentiate between natural and unnatural acts. Humanity is not some ethereal species places in a hostile reality.
New York City is as natural as a beaver's dam. The beaver is acting in it's nature, and man is acting in his.

The incentive to act moral is the desire to live.

[Nottingham]

59. Is this like Pursuit of Happiness! But what Happiness!

The Happiness that is all for the individual and allows for hurting other individuals

Where is the morality in that! :bounce:

[grantdwilliams]

62. you're confused...

When I do something like, say, buy a house... that doesn't hurt you.

but when you want a house, and you use the government to make me cough up some money, to help you buy a house, that hurts me.

[0rganism]

138. Maybe you should read some Kant instead of Rand, just for a change?

Start with "Groundwork for the Metaphysics of Morals", work up from there.

In effect, Kant supports the exact opposite of your thesis: a "moral" act done with incentive for personal gain is NOT moral at all. Moral acts are precisely those which are done in spite of one's material desires, because one would wish everyone to behave thus.

[msmcghee]

64. It's straight out of Atlas Shrugged (Ayn Rand) n/t

[grantdwilliams]

67. it is...

and your point?

[msmcghee]

75. See post #71 below n/t

[barbaraann]

55. Well, of course.

And the Golden Rule is the best way to pursue rational self-interest. That is why every religion has it and why every society breaks down without it.

I guess I might just add ENLIGHTENED, rational self-interest.

[grantdwilliams]

61. The Golden Rule huh?

So if I'm pointing a gun at you, and you don't want to get shot... you shouldn't shoot back?

[barbaraann]

68. Why would you be pointing a gun at me?

Why would anyone be pointing a gun at me? I am a senior citizen and I have NEVER had anyone point a gun at me.

Why would anyone who doesn't believe in the Golden Rule be posting on DU? This is a community of kind, caring, intelligent people.

[grantdwilliams]

70. I don't know what goes on in the minds of criminals and dictators...

but they have guns and they point them at people. To pretend that they don't exist is unrealilistic. And to treat them how you want them to to treat you even when they don't care how you want them to treat you is illogical.

[barbaraann]

78. That is a sad, twisted view of humanity.

I have known thousands of people and NO ONE has ever pointed a gun at me. This is not a fantasy--it is a reality. I have helped hundreds of people through volunteer work and perhaps some of these people were prevented from harming me.

On the other hand, my grandmother (who lived a very selfish life) was murdered by two teenagers. Had she taken the time to reach out to help others in her small town she might have prevented her own death by stabbing.

I'm not a fool. I do consider my own self-interest. But my thoughts are a little more sophisticated than "me, me, me."

[grantdwilliams]

83. I never claimed that crime and brutality is the norm of human life...

But it does exist. And it's an effective way to discredit The Golden Rule. Rather, the simple rule for human interaction should be "treat others how they deserve to be treated and expect to be treated how you deserve to be treated"

[barbaraann]

99. Wow! Discrediting the Golden Rule.

Now there's a worthwhile activity.

[grantdwilliams]

101. It's an invalid policy.

And if practiced consistently it will lead to destruction.

[RapidCreek]

125. You mean like George Bush Jr.?

He, His daddy and Reagun not only pointed them at other people, they sold them to terrorists. The very same terrorists who now threaten me and mine. Frankly, the above mentioned triumvirate and thier minions are responsible for a whole lot more death and destruction than any terrorist has ever been. Think about that for a while.

RC

[RapidCreek]

63. What are YOU talking about

Microsoft has gotten their ass NAILED for anti-trust. Do you know what that is? Here is a link to a time line of other shady shit they have pulled. Interesting....when Microsoft fucks their competition it's AOK but when someone makes noise like they will reply in kind MS, cries and whines like a little girls. Microsoft built a cookie jar? My ass...If I beat you over the head and steal your wallet am I building a bank account? MS shit is nothing more than an inelegant hodgepodge of other peoples coding, half of it stolen...glued together with snot and sealing wax.

If MS were so great and wonderful they'd have nothing to worry about from them yellow skinned devils now would they? Sounds to me like they're pretty worried. As well they should be. Instead of crying and whining maybe they should consider investing their energy time and money in building a better product. After all, it really makes no difference whether the Asian OS is government funded in a REAL market game now does it? If it ain't as good as Robber Billy's then it ain't gonna sell. If it's better it will.

RC

[pasadenaboy]

2. I already have one.

Its called OSX, and it runs on an apple!!

[grantdwilliams]

3. It's called communism...

..and it runs on theft.

[pasadenaboy]

6. huh?

Why is it communism and why does it run on theft?

[grantdwilliams]

8. uh..

what we're talking about. Remember, that whole government subsidized software thing in Asia. Are you stoned?

[pasadenaboy]

13. Well,

you actually replied to my message, not the topic header, so I thought you were talking about OSX, and Apple.

[mbperrin]

47. Surely you are aware

that Gates learned what he knows about DOS-type applications while he and Paul Allen were dropped out of Harvard and living with a government scientist in White Sands, NM (the government payroll!) whose specialty was developing a disk operating system.

Right?

If you don't know, and if you don't know that his success was based on getting IBM to buy MS-DOS and later Windows (stolen from the Apple OS) as their standard, and IBM was the government's biggest supplier, and so the government money rolled in.

If you don't know, please do some research and while you're at it, look up the word "monopsony."

[SharonAnn]

110. Oooh, thanks. A new word , "monopsony" and "oligopsony".

It's been a long time since I've learned a new word! I love it! Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Ooops, on reflection, that makes me sound like *, doesn't it?

[mbperrin]

111. No danger of YOU sounding like *

SharonAnn!
1) You actually learned it!
2) You looked up another one for yourself!

(I would like to see * try it on the teleprompter, though!) ;)

[Nottingham]

7. Well yes they steal from US! But Microsoft has been a failure

Look at all of the Viruses and Blasters Worms destroying it
Ya can't have a system so flawed

China doesn't TRUST IT and for good reason its rigged!

:bounce:

[grantdwilliams]

9. Right... I can't have a system so flawed...

That's why I would buy a better one, or make my own. But not except the taxpayer down the street in my Tokyo neighborhood to chip in if he doesn't want to.

Or are the government's of China, South Korea, and Japan developing this just for government operations?

[Nottingham]

15. Yes! Exactly Grant this has to do with Security Issues

A Government shouldn't put confidence in Microsoft

It is flawed and has been proven flawed

the asian governments realize it can't be trusted for National Security Reasons just as we shouldn't trust Indian and Chineese and Russian programmers outsourced to design Microsoft programs its a National Security Issue! :bounce:

and I'm not stoned alittle goofy but not stoned :crazy:

[grantdwilliams]

17. I read this in the article...

Japan, the world's second largest economy, made a proposal at an Asian economic summit this week to build an inexpensive and trustworthy open-source operating system that would be based on a system such as Linux, which can be copied and modified freely.


Why is this any of a government's business?

[Nottingham]

22. Why Grant ! Its because these systems run the countires

Energy Information Data Bases Banks Defense systems Water Plants

all the things that a country has to have for its people

Ya saw the Blackout well maybe that was a MicroSoft Worm problem which shut down the grid!

Yes its a Security Issue and basically No Buddy Trusts Microsoft!

[grantdwilliams]

23. It's simply because the government has too much on it's plate...

I don't blame Microsoft for shrugging.

[StandWatie]

11. linux=communism=theft

Are you high?

[grantdwilliams]

12. But Linux was open source from the beginning...

Companies that sell Linux voluntarily assume that risk.

[StandWatie]

14. did you read the article?

They are dumping MSFT for an Asian linux.

[0rganism]

142. Of course, SCO has a different take on the matter

Because Linux used "proprietary" UNIX material, and SCO purchased the right to those materials, they've actually launched lawsuits against various other Linuxes and UNIXes for violating copyright.

e.g.,

"SCO Group, inheritor of the intellectual property for the Unix operating system, has sued IBM for more than $1 billion, alleging Big Blue misappropriated SCO's Unix technology and built it into Linux.

"The suit, filed Thursday afternoon in the 3rd District Court of Salt Lake County in Utah, alleges misappropriation of trade secrets, unfair competition, breach of contract and tortious interference with SCO's business, the Lindon, Utah-based company said. SCO also sent a letter Thursday demanding that if IBM doesn't meet various demands, SCO will revoke IBM's license to ship its version of Unix, called AIX, in 100 days...

"AT&T sold the Unix intellectual property to Novell Networks, which in turn sold it to the Santa Cruz Operation. Caldera International, a seller of Linux, then acquired from SCO the Unix rights and two SCO products, OpenServer and UnixWare. Then last year, Caldera changed its name to SCO Group to reflect the fact that most of its revenue came from its SCO business and not from the Linux products."

http://news.com.com/2100-1016-991464.html?tag=nl

The UNIX family tree is a complex and incestuous one. It's no big surprise that some shotgun marriages and corporate cannibalism would occur.

[lcordero]

19. Microsoft must practice "communism" too since they have

lied, cheated, stolen and strong-armed their way to the top.

[grantdwilliams]

20. When the government does it, it's called communism..

When private citizens do it, it's called crime.

I don't support illegal theft as much as I don't support legal theft.


Go somewhere else with that whole "two wrongs make a right" logic.


Besides, prove that Microsoft did anything wrong.

[Nottingham]

26. So Grant Basically you feel that China is stealing

I think China just wants a safer system.

and yes I think Bill Gates should be careful here!
He maybe outsourcing jobs to people who sabotage his OWN Company!

and Linux has been proven safer Bush uses it!

:bounce:

[grantdwilliams]

27. Yeah, I think that China wants a safer system too...

Safer so that they can insure that no snooty Americans interupt the orgy of death and oppression they call People's Liberation.


You can't just use words like "China" and "MSFT" as if they were the same type of organization and ignore all of the implications that these two organization's behaviors have.

[Nottingham]

32. Grant you bring up some very powerful arguments

And I understand your frustration
It would have been an ideal situation for China to use Microsoft and then Bush (US) could watch all their secrets and sabotage their whole defense plan using Microsoft as a Defense weapon

But Alas the gig is up for Bill and Now heres the AWFUL part
and I saw this line in a Movie Excaliber

Merlin goes You Betrayed their Trust
Now Nobody Trusts you

that was the Kiss of Death for Luther Pendragon!

:bounce:

[lcordero]

30. Asia is trying to do it's best to protect it's data and to protect the

interests of it's citizens. How is that a crime?
They aren't obligated to do business with MSFT. Microsoft has done EVERYTHING wrong.

[grantdwilliams]

34. If they were doing their best to protect the interests of their citizens..

...they wouldn't be forcing them to subsidize something (and in China's care, everything) that they may not want to subsidize.

Besides, if you were S. Korea and Japan, why would you be afraid of the US?

[Nottingham]

36. Well Grant that is a Heck of a Question! Why be afraid of US?

We just had a Preemptive War with Iraq for questionable reasons

WHY Be Afraid Of the US??

Gosh thats a heck of a question!

I guess Japan should just relax and let America take care of them
but alas when you Don't do what President Bush wants well then the US can smile and say we control all your Systems and can make your lives hell!

Why be Afraid of the US??

[grantdwilliams]

40. We took care of them for almost 20 years from 1945 to 1965...

I'd say that worked out well... going from a primitive, superstitious, death-worshiping, brutal, and backwards society to a pretty-much free, sophisticated, productive, and enjoyable nation with the world's 2nd largest economy.

But then again, it could have all just been Buddha's doing.

[grantdwilliams]

41. Iraq and Japan.

Apples and Oranges.

[Nottingham]

43. Well France was an Ally and they are afraid of us!

and when they didn't do what we wanted they were punished by
Freedom Fries :bounce:

[grantdwilliams]

44. That's not even worth responding to...

so there.

[lcordero]

37. They have EVERY reason to be afraid of the US

If you don't happen to know, the US installed Noriega and Saddam. The US eventually turned on Saddam and Noriega for PR reasons. If that doesn't scare foreign governments then they are enormously stupid.

[markbark]

35. Yee Gawds...

Quoth the poster:
Besides, prove that Microsoft did anything wrong.

Methinks a short perusal of this document might provide a little sorely needed enlightenment.

Microsoft is a predatory behemoth that will use it's monopoly status to crush anyone whom they perceive to be a threat to that monopoly.
(Does the phrase Halloween Memorandum ring a bell with you?)

Their operating system is arguably the most efficient means of propagating viruses know to modern technology. China, Korea, Japan et al want a somewhat more secure means of building the technological infrastructure of their countries. Unca' Billy is whining because, unlike THIS country, the respective governments of that region of the world have decided NOT to bend over and let MS have its way with them.

Is Linux/Unix invulnerable to attack? No, but at least when a virus/worm/trojan shows up on that platform, you can study the source code and find a fix quickly and not have take anyone's word for it that "we fixed it this time.... download the latest service pack. That'll plug the hole... trust us!"


--MAB


(version 1.1 - fixed all those pesky typo bugs ;) )

[lcordero]

38. thank you

:)

[grantdwilliams]

39. Answer this...

I'm not interested in playing detective. People have full time jobs for that. When the extent of my political power is the ballot box I find it much more efficient to develop and refer to a logical set of fundamental principles to make my decisions rather than to argue about trivia from a specific incident. But all of this is besides the point...

Does Microsoft has a legal right to use physical coercion, threaten to use physical coercion, or lie to prevent an inovation from entering the software market that would take part of their market share. No, they don't. If they do these things (and as you say, they have done these things), they are, and should be, punished.
But if not, then they should not be punished for fairly being successful even if no one else is.

[Nottingham]

46. Succesful or Being a Monopoly! Thats Apples & Oranges

There were Monopolies developed in the Capitalist system which when Unchecked as a result the Greed of Powerful men was so awful they
made American Workers lifes horrendous

Thats when America made AntiTrust laws which have been weakened

Its Capitalism gone wrong its when a small group take over a industry and can name their price

Its why Capitalism destroys itself if it doesn't have the Government checking that free enterprise and competition is maintained

Microsoft is a Monopoly that is running into competition and is crying about it! :bounce:

[grantdwilliams]

49. ...

Those workers a long time ago consensually agreed to work in those factories. They did not have an inherent right to a job simply because they existed. That's because jobs do not fall from the sky; they have to be created by someone else. To claim a right to a job is to claim a right to a piece of someone else's life.

As for the monopoly issue, Yes, Microsoft has a right to name it's price for it's products. That's called freedom. And you have a right to bargain with them or walk away. If their price it too high, and they want to stay in business, then they'll lower their price.

But then again, I guess we all have an inherent right to cheap software too.

I guess that's why it's called software, so it doesn't break when it falls from the sky.

[Nottingham]

56. That Worker is what Makes America ! And he is the ONE who WORKS

If ya take economics the whole idea of economics is screwing the Worker out of his wages.

Thats Capitalism!

Capitalism causes Depressions and this is what your seeing RIGHT Now

and Unions were developed to Protect the Workers and as we see There is Nobody protecting the Workers whose jobs are being outsourced to India

I feel no sympathy for Billionaire Bill Gates :bounce:

[grantdwilliams]

66. ok, if the worker is primary creator of wealth...

...and brains don't matter why are we talking about anything? shouldn't we just be digging ditches or something?

[RapidCreek]

87. Are you suggesting that workers have no brains Grant?

It follows then that to be a worker is to be stupid. Please explain.

RC

[grantdwilliams]

91. Generally speaking, yes... the average worker is stupider than the...

...average boss.

but that's not what I meant... What I meant was that before any worker can work on anything someone has to come up with the idea and make sure it's worth doing.

[mbperrin]

106. That's pretty amazing!

I wonder how my grandfather stayed a self employed carpenter until age 86, raising 4 children and raising five granchildren after the death of a child and sending all the granchildren to college without a boss??????

Damn!!! Think of what that old German might have done if he'd only had a boss!

Now I really do know that you're extremely young. One of the cures for Ayn Rand is to read up on her personal life. I'd suggest it.


WOOHOO! Get a boss before it's too late, self-employed Americans!

[grantdwilliams]

117. Good for you Grandfather...

...but like I said, generally speaking. I didn't say that there weren't exceptions.


Ayn Rand's personal life had nothing to do w/ her philosophy.

[mbperrin]

132. How you LIVE has

nothing to do with what you SAY?

Interesting.......finally the basis for Republican morals comes to surface!

[RapidCreek]

115. Ah Grant my boy.....

You remind me of the daughter of a rich man I once knew. She was a clever girl and went to Northwestern Medical School. Being her neighbor I was often invited to Junior AMA parties...held on yachts and in mansions. I was sort of a novelty....a kid from the richest of the Chicago suburbs who chose for a time to do manual labor.....you know, like a stupid person. I always loved to listen to the young med school students discuss for hours on end the fact that their years of work and mental superiority had better well garner them 6 figure salaries. Actually it made me sort of ill. Rarely if ever did I hear them discuss their interest in helping their fellow human beings...nope it was the acquisition of wealth which turned their screws.

One day the daughter of the rich man, the one who went to Northwestern Medical School, was complaining that she had to pay a mechanic, you know, a stupid worker, 45 bucks an hour to replace the water pump on her car. I asked her what she was complaining about. She explained that it was wrong for some dumb-ass grease monkey to be able to charge that much to do something which obviously any idiot could do. I asked her why she didn't do it herself then. She told me she didn't know how.

I asked her why her time was worth 400 dollars an hour but his was not worth 45. She explained that she had to work very hard to get her degree and had to be very smart to get it. I pointed out that she wasn't even smart enough to change a water pump, so how in the hell could her time be worth that much? Further, I let her know that the man who works on her car worked very hard to garner his skill, as well. He crawled around on cold concrete floors in dirt and filth for years to earn his ASE ratings as a master mechanic. She then explained to me that she, unlike the stupid mechanic, had lives in her hands. I asked her what would happen if her brakes didn't work the next time she was greeted with a red light at an intersection. She didn't have an answer.

My cousin....just finished his residency....he is another real smart fella like you. Can't figure out how to change a spark plug but charges 400 dollars an hour to render medical services. He's a special guy...who thinks allot like you. He gets pissed when some stupid person thinks they should be paid for their time...like he is. His father in-law....the man who paid for his schooling, rebuilds 58 Chrysler Imperials as a hobby. He also built his home with his own hands. For the first twelve years of this mans career he worked for the Peace Corps and made nothing....He did what he did because he loved his fellow human beings, not because he thought he was smarter than them or better than them or could cleverly get something out of them. He recognized that everyone does not have the same opportunities in life and he shared with those people without taking advantage of them. He had allot of respect for mechanics incidently, in fact he suggested that I go to medical school, as a physician is, after all, nothing more than a bio-mechanic. He mentioned that most of the kids graduating from medical school these days were real great test takers and experts at rote memorization but possessed small quantities of common sense and lacked any sort of deductive rational or mechanical inclination. Who was this stupid, works with his hands, grease monkey dimwit, to assert such non-sense you ask? He was a 65 year old man, who drove a chevy celebrity and happnend to be one of the most preeminent pediatric surgeons in the country. He does stupid stuff like separating siamese twins when he ain't wrenching on old cars or building houses or working for the peace corps or bitching about some no talent Health Services MBA screwing with the hospital he works at to more effectivley screw his patients.

Frankly your last sentence is so silly it is beyond addressing...but I shall do so anyway. Are you suggesting that the average MBA could design or engineer anything aside perhaps from a business infrastructure? How many design engineers do you suppose sit on the board of most companies? I'm here to tell you, not to damn many. You think Dick fucking Cheney knows how to run a train? How about designing trains...you think he knows a thing about that? Maybe he is an expert on freight distribution? How about laying train tracks....think he's an expert on that? What about the design of food products? Think ole dick can tell you how to make Pringles Potato Chips? How about Electronic Data Systems? Think he can tell you all about the use of computers to convert, store, process, transmit, and retrieve information. Maybe Dick can tell you the ins and outs of oil platform design and construction or the finer points of viscous fluid dynamics in an oil pipeline, eh? After dropping out of Yale and settling for a masters in Poli-sci from the University of Wyoming, I'm sure Mr. Cheney has much wisdom to impart to all the dumb workers over whom he has presided in years past. You know...the ones who do know about the above mentioned items. What you seem to be mistaking as smart, is a capacity and willingness to profit on the brilliance, ingenuity and toil of others while being a complete ignoramus outside the confines of self promotion and the manipulation of others. That my friend is what is commonly known as a parasite. Parasites are not known for high degrees of intelligence.

Here is something for you to ponder. A brain does the thinking and a heart and lungs do work. Which would you rather do without? Which is more important?

RC

[mbperrin]

58. OK, here we go.

Get a job. It's pretty obvious that you're too young to have had an actual career, so get a good job, the one you want at a good salary for a Fortune 500 company.

Now 3 years later, have your boss come in and tell you that need to take a 20% pay cut and do your job just as well as before. Because you have such a great bargaining position by yourself vs a multibillion dollar conglomerate, you'll stay, and because you're doing more for less, "productivity" will rise! And so will the company stock! Your bosses will be so happy that they'll sell some of it to buy their 12th houses.

Then they'll come to you and say you need to give up what's left of your health coverage, and because the two of you are such equals, you'll do it, because in a bad economy like this, you'll need to explain to your wife why you quit a job without another one and are you crazy? Then "productivity" will rise again! More work from fewer people for less money! Stock prices will soar! Your bosses will piss on themselves for joy!

And so on....

And when you have the 37 years in the workforce that I have, and all but 15 of them for major corporations, you are free to tell me that this just couldn't (or hasn't happened!)

There's your consensual agreement! It's sorta like rape - submit or die! (See - we did give you a free choice; it's just that all the choices suck!)

[grantdwilliams]

72. "Submit or die"?

Quit. Farm.

[RapidCreek]

89. My Grant

Are you a farmer? Since farmers are workers and by your definition stupid, perhaps you could task you brilliant mind and elaborate on what exactly is necessary to run a successful independant farm, eh?

RC

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RapidCreek]

81. People exist without corporations, Grant

Corporations do not exist without people.

"Those workers a long time ago consensually agreed to work in those factories" You mean like the lucky folks to be found at this link and this link? Allot of people consent to allot of things out of desperation. Does that make it right? If I create a desperate situation for you and your family then offer to barely sustain your existence if you do what I want you to do, would you suggest that my methods are clever and admirable? That is what is being done in this country right now....by your wonderful freemarket capitalist buddies....who are shipping American jobs overseas to them EVILE commies, you hate so much. Funny how them commie bastards are aok when they'll work for 5 cents on the dollar ain't it? I can only buy stuff made by a commie if I buy it from an American company, is that it? I mean, you know, If I buy it directly from the commie then I am supporting them nasty commies right? Without the Mercin middle man sticking cash in his pocket it just ain't fair now is it? Dude your arguments are circuitous and WEAK!

Yep I have the right to walk away from microsoft and buy an Asian Linux OS....and I will too. I don't care if commies or fascists or men from mars make it....if it is better, then that is what I will buy. Thats the thing about outsourcing, fella. You do it long enough and the folks building your product for you will just build it themselves and cut your worthless ass out of the picture. Globalization baby! That's where it's at! Globalized manufacture = Globalized market. A reality our hypocritical right leaning friends just can't grasp.

RC

[grantdwilliams]

86. By offering to employ you in my coal mine I didn't create a desperate...

...situation for you.


The bad potato crop in Ireland or the civil war in Colombia, or the oppression of women in Iran created your desperate situation.

Those immigrants that took those jobs didn't have to. It's real simple.



As far as cutting the brains out of software, good luck.

But don't come running to the people who had the brains to design it when it breaks and you don't know what to do.

[RapidCreek]

112. Did the 7 year old kids need to work there too Grant?

Guess they were just real industrious eh? Yep gotta admit it was pretty clever of the coal barons to build castles on the backs of 7 year olds. Guess the kids were dumb and the barons were smart.

What created the oppression of Negroe slaves?

Don't come running to the people who had the brains to desing it when it breaks? What the hell is that about? It ain't the people who design things that get the money little buddy. I know, I am a designer....and I ain't rich. You actually believe that Bill Gates designs software? Well you better pull your head out and do a little research pal cause Billy Boy Gates didn't design jack shit. He stole the work of others and cheated them. He attempts to quell the very thing which you so strangly attack. Open source software, which ANYONE who can code can fix.

RC

[Nottingham]

88. Rapid creek that was Freakin AWESOME! That says it so well!

:bounce: and we are suppose to feel sorry for Microsoft!

NO WAY!

[RapidCreek]

114. thanks for the words Nottingham!

RC

[Occulus]

131. Ponder this one.

"To claim a right to a job is to claim a right to a piece of someone else's life."

Yes, but when you control a person's livlihood, you control their will.

[mbperrin]

50. I'll answer.

What makes you think that any vote you cast will be counted? Surely you know that systems are being sold NOW in this country which are easy to twist without leaving a single paper trail?

If you only worry about what you can vote on, and are too lazy to click on a link, then you need to stop worrying! The great big friendly folks like Cheney and Rumsfeld and Rove will take good care of you, and their great big fuzzy capitalist buddies, too!

(BTW, I noticed you left out cannibalism and goat-f**king on the list of Japanese deficiencies published earlier.)

[grantdwilliams]

53. We're they cannibals and goat f**ckers?

That's news to me.


Tell me, do you run the Justice Department, do you run Microsoft?

Seriously, find something productive to do. Like debate the fundamental issues surrounding the case.

I'm certainly not saying to not respect the facts of the case, but when having a hypothetical discussion about the alleged possibility of a true monopoly in a free economy, Microsoft's 1993 budget statement is really superfolous.

[mbperrin]

57. Where do you get this free economy stuff?

When large companies get exclusive rights to exist from the government (the FCC for communications; the state insurance commissions for insurance companies; the SEC for stock traders, and on and on), and these rights commit the government to hunting down and eliminating any competitors who haven't gotten the government license that you own, then you don't have a free economy. Don't have one now in this country. Never did. The whole meaning of a patent is restriction of trade backed by government muscle.

Ok, and I guess the whole sarcasm thing flew by you about the Japanese - they weren't any of the other things you named, either.

Keep your moral focus - there's still only one country in the world which has dropped nuclear bombs on another country - that would be us. And please don't tell me about shortening the war - we did it to scare hell out of Joseph Stalin. We were actually worried the Japanese might surrender before we could get them dropped! Now that's a moral country!

[grantdwilliams]

65. Did you miss US government in highschool...

the government doesn't give rights... it protects them.


A patent is intellectual property. They exist to protect property rights.

[mbperrin]

107. No, actually, government is one of the subjects I'm licensed

and certified to teach, although I actually teach economics currently.

Adam Smith was opposed to patents, because they reduce competition and kill the free flow of knowledge. He was also opposed to stock companies (what we call corporations) because managers risk other people's money, not their own.

He thought that you ought to be personally liable as a business owner for any flaws in your products, and he certainly thought that trade tariffs were a problem as well.

Yes, patents are a government invention. They are a government invention which promotes the exclusive right to make or market a product. This is a fiat monopoly, exactly my point. There is no free economy in this country and was never intended to be by those wealthy slaveowners who created this country!

A monopsony, since you never bothered to look it up, is a single buyer of services. In a labor market, a common form is the "company town." Credit is extended to laborers and redeemable only with company "chits" not real money, which limits workers to buying only from the company at inflated prices, extending their debt forever, and making up a new form of slavery, credit slavery, as opposed to the slightly more direct chattel slavery.

There's more, but absorb this.

[grantdwilliams]

122. I don't care about Adam Smith's intellectual shortcomings...

...all human interactions fall into 2 basic categories: forces and consentual.


The monopsony thing? what does that have to do w/ anything we're talking about?

[grantdwilliams]

123. oops...

...forced*

[RapidCreek]

128. Thing is Grant is you're not quoting Adam Smith...

You're quoting Ayn Rand, an intellectual midget with a contrarian, self serving agenda, who hijacked then basterdized Smiths theories. I am curious, have you ever actually read and studied The Wealth of Nations...or did you rely on the Rand readers digest version to arrive at your misguided position?

Later I'll stop by and give a detailed explaination as to why your assertions are diametrically opposed to pretty much everything Smith said. A point by point, so to speak.

RC

[markbark]

103. No Detective Work Needed....

It's simple really....

1. Microsoft broke the law.
2. The Clinton Justice Dept. called them on it.
3. Seven years of litigation later, the judge said "Yup, they broke the law"
4. The clock runs out on the Clinton presidency.
5. Ashcroft takes over at Justice.
6. The case is ignored forevermore, leaving the 800 lb gorilla (MS) to run roughshod over any and all competitors.

This is not conjecture, this is solid fact.
To dismiss it as "trivia" (Quoth the poster who claims to: refer to a logical set of fundamental principles to make my decisions rather than to argue about trivia from a specific incident.)

The "logical set of fundamental principles" here is a little bit of law known as The Sherman Act. Microsoft is guilty of violating several sections of that act. They have yet to be punished for this. Am I getting thru?

Your political power at the ballot box is irrelevant to this discussion. I believe it's what logicians refer to as "A Straw Man"
Are you going to present any facts (with links please, as I've so thoughtfully provided you.. ;) ) or are you going to take a sheet from the Sean Hannity/Bill O'Reilly School of "If I Said It, It MUST Be True" Journalism?


I look forward to your reply (If you've not been tombstoned by now... I think I detect the distinct odor of "Freep-ruptor" in this thread...)


--MAB

[markbark]

126. Thought so......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=131302

Ah Grant, me boy.... we hardly knew ye.


--MAB

[RapidCreek]

137. Ya know...I don't think tombstoning this guy was really very fair!

The dude wasn't being a prick....he was just expressing his point of view. Come one people....let's not get too pissy here. It's good practice to learn how to debate a cat who isn't simply spouting inane Rushisms. We don't really know who or what party Grant is affiliated with....suffice it to say that he offered arguments that were much more powerful than those espoused by a few of the long standing Republicrat members we have on this board. You know...reletively speaking. A guy whose name starts with a C comes to mind.

Let's face it. There are many Democrats who are fans of Capatilism...I myself am one (well actually I am an independent now). The problem is....is that many people have glommed on to the bastardized revisionist definition of Capitalism manufactured by Ayn Rand. This is a natural approach for those who seek to propagate the right wing agenda....it is a sad state of affairs for us progressives however, and points to the fact we often times make ourselves the victim of a scarecrow created by our own willing and defensive ignorance. I would love to know, just how many of us who claim that Capitalism is evil have actually read, studied and researched Adam Smiths treatise to Capitalism, The Wealth of Nations. Here is a link for you to check out if you have not. I highly recommend that you visit the site, as it will give you some serious ammunition to use against those who irreverently sport "Adam Smith ties" and use his name in defense of the robber baron mentality.

Through debate we may actually inspire others, who have previously remained quite, to come forward and share their thoughts, like the Japanese fellow who contributed to this thread. In addition, proving ones points expands the knowledge base we all have to work from, when fighting right wingers. This guy had a set of stones, I'll give him that. He went up against a group who quite obviously disagreed with most everything he had to say. He was a bit misdirected in his thinking, in my opinion, but for the most part maintained a civil discourse through out. In responding to him, I went back through my notes and writing on Capitalism, Demming, TQM and Japan and realized that I had forgotten very important information which could be quite effectively used in support of our stance on the issues this thread addresses.

I for one am a little disappointed you excommunicated Grant. If you stop by again and read this thread Grant. Sorry they tombstoned you...it wasn't my idea! It'd be real funny if we found out Grant was actually Joseph Lieberman, eh?

RC

[markbark]

148. Re-read the thread....

While he wasn't spouting Rushisms, he certainly shared the Rushmeister's style. Sweeping generalisms, indifference to reality and a general "My position is right, try to convince me otherwise".

The form of capitalism he espouses makes me think he must be a high school sophomore who has just finished reading Atlas Shrugged in his AP Government class. Armed with this "textbook" he wades into the "den of libruls" and thrashes about until a mod gives him a well deserved electronic spanking :spank:

(Don't look at me.... I never push the "alert" button, just the "ignore")


--MAB

[Nottingham]

149. I had to say It was a fascinating Discussion & so important

and its interesting to see how others think! After reading Grant's stuff I can't for the life of me understand how the Christian Right
go along with the Freepers idea of a NON Moral Me attitude Economics.
and I am the only one who matters in the world

Life is the most important thing!

Wheres the Christianity in that philosophy
Maybe its the God will provide idea and we don't need anybody else

But my answer to him is that we come into this world a child and we need somebody to feed us
And aren't we lucky that somebody didn't just think of themselves but got up fed us change our diaper and loved us!

Thats really what life is about!:bounce:

Grant if you see this it was a fascinating discussion! I definitely enjoyed it!

[Ellen Forradalom]

52. Microsoft has NEVER trusted the market to decide winners

Microsoft is the master market manipulator.

They should also take note of the word 'trustworthy.' Looks like a few folks are sick of those Microsoft-compatible worms and viruses.

[lanlady]

60. The US government is MS's biggest customer!

so much for government not deciding.

[grantdwilliams]

69. I don't get it...

[Nottingham]

74. Well What I think is funny is Bush doesn't trust Windows

thats why his closest friends use Linux

:bounce:

[msmcghee]

71. Grant Williams

In your defense of free markets - either you have to privatize everything - including the military, police, fire protection, FBI, terrorism protection, etc. or accept the fact that people in democracies have the right to decide which services they will pay for collectively and which ones they will leave to the private sector - and how they should be regulated.

Assuming you can not justify the ridiculous concept of a private mercenary military (or militarys) paid for by whoever wishes to sponsor them, kind of like the warlords in the ME, then you have no grounds to claim that the citizens of Japan or any other country don't have the right to create a state (tax) supported operating system for their computer systems - if their elected representatives deem it in their national interest to do so.

Or do think you can justify that position somehow?

[grantdwilliams]

73. I don't support the privatization of those parts of government that...

...exist for the exclusive protection of individuals and their property from physical force and fraud.

To support the privatization of the police, courts, and military is to be an anarchist.

Quit putting words in my mouth.

[msmcghee]

76. OK then . .

. . is it not reasonable for the citizens of Japan (or any other country) to decide that leaving the ownership of the operating system of all their computers in the hands of a private corporation that considers the code proprietary trade secrets is a threat to individuals and their property from fraud?

[grantdwilliams]

77. Individual Japanese citizens consenually purchased Microsoft's products...

... Japanese individuals have rights to life, liberty, and (consensually gained) property just like anyone else, and the Japanese government should respect this by not making their software decisions for them.

[Nottingham]

79. Well those Terrible Japaneese are Going to give their People

a CHOICE and thats Freedom!

There is No Freedom if you don't have a choice!

and I would Bet that MicroSoft after their terrible performance is going to be the LOSER! :bounce:

[grantdwilliams]

90. Why do you people flat out refuse to see the distinction between...

...what is involved when a government does something and private company does something? (And I mean a private company that doesn't use the government, and isn't subsidized (not even a little bit) by any government; since they wouldn't be private then).

The only way a government can accomplish anything is by enacting a law or a policy or an ordinance. And the only way they can make sure it gets done is by forcing you to comply. If you don't comply you get arrested, fined, or worse. It doesn't matter what they're trying to do, how much sense it makes, or if it ends up helping you... underneath all of the posturing about how it's for your own good, or for the good of the democracy, or the national security reasons, there's a guy with a gun who is going to make sure it gets done.


If a private company, on the other hand, tries the same tricks, you can get the government (assuming they're not too busy redistributing other people's money) to step in and stop them. A private company's policies and products rise or fall on their merit, not their creator's muscle.

[msmcghee]

80. I didn't see anything about Japanese citizens being forced . .

. . to use the state owned system. As far as I can tell no-one's rights to life, liberty, and (consensually gained) property is at stake. I can't imagine how they'd do that anyway - outlaw MS in Japan? Sure, just like outlawing MP3 dowloads.

Of course if they wanted to communicate by computer and e-mail easily with others in Asia and have a common set of supported open system apps available - maybe they'd just choose to use their tax supported system.

The question isn't about forcing an operating system on anybody (which is the practical reality at present). It's about having some better choices than are currently available.

[msmcghee]

85. Waiting for your reply n/t

[grantdwilliams]

94. I didn't say that they were forced to use it...

...I said that they were forced to pay for it.

[RapidCreek]

84. You didn't answer his question Grant!

Don't be evasive, answer his question. Boy that talking in circles has a tendency to bight one in the ass, now doesn't it? Thing is, chief, your gonna get called on that crap here.

No one is forcing Japanese people use a government sponsored operating system, any more than US ctizens are forced to use a government sponsored Postal service.

I'll say it again....answer the question.

RC

[billbuckhead]

92. Microsoft software sucks.Maybe Asians will build "Hondalike" software

Everyday at work our "Windows" environment has some screwup. Windows 98 crashes at least once a day. Windows XP has some compatibility problem everytime we switch printers or the last 3 weeks it's been worms or some other e-mail freep-up.
My iMac at home freezes so infrequently that i have to look up how to end a program. (Usually from trying to use the last bit of ink in my HP printer). I've heard that the Bundeswehr, the Peoples Liberation Army, the US Navy have all started switching from this junky crappy crashprone built only for monopolistic profit software to Linux. I've heard that the BFEE and Al Queda use Macs. Nobody with with a brain in their head would use this crap if they had a choice or enough education/knowledge to switch to some UNIX based software.

[grantdwilliams]

96. I was getting something to eat.

[Nottingham]

98. Was it good Grant! LOL!!

Thanks for a great discussion!

I think we all should have the freedom of choice

and sometimes people choose to give their lifes for this freedom

I'm glad the American didn't let King George give them a Monopoly!
:bounce:

[grantdwilliams]

102. :)

Me too.

[Classical_Liberal]

97. The original article

said the operating system would compete, not force.

[grantdwilliams]

100. Jesus Christ...

Here... I'll say it again...


There's an individual Japanese person. He may or may not like Windows over Mac or UNIX or whatever.

There's another individual Japanese person. He in fact doesn't like Windows for whatever reason

The second person goes to the government and says, "you should create an operating that competes with Windows". The government says "OK"

The government then raises the taxes of one or both of the individual Japanese people to create this snazzy new Operating system.

Who's lost what? Well, it's certainly not the government, they now have one more happy voter (the 2nd person). And it's certainly not the 2nd person (his software desires have been met).

It's the 1st Japanese Inidivual person. He had money that he spent his time to earn taken right out of his pocket to help pay for something that he didn't want to pay for.

Do I have to draw pictures?

[w4rma]

93. China is a sleeping fascist giant that should *not* be ignored, IMHO (n/t)

[billbuckhead]

104. Our own soldiers have often opted for AK-47's

It's not the system that makes the product good or bad. It's whether it ultimately works. Machines aren't moral, they either do a job or fail, they either are profitable or spew red ink and hardship. Poor people all over the world loved Hitler's Beetle. Mozambique has a Kalishinkov on their national flag. Walmart was built on Red Chinese goods. That being said, it's civilization's job to regulate machines so that they enchance everyman's life instead of only the pluto's and their whores.

[grantdwilliams]

105. Get civilization on the phone, I'd like to talk to him.

Just because Stalin and Hitler and Mao didn't get around to killing every intelligent person stuck inside their "civilizations" (which, by the way, claimed to be solely devoted to 'regulat machines so that they enchance everyman's life instead of only the pluto's and their whores.) doesn't mean that collectivism is preferable to individualism.

Overall, a free market does bring the greatest good to the greatest number. This is because it is accordance with the facts of reality and man's nature and collectivism is not. But I don't try to argue for the superiority of capitalism from the utilitarian standpoint that it best serves the collective.

Capitalism is has a moral basis rooted in the requirements of man for life on Earth.

[mbperrin]

108. And so that's why that

immoral Communist, Jesus, GAVE AWAY fishes and loaves when he shoulda been sellin' 'em!!!

Damn! Why didn't he get some morals?? That must be why they killed him!

And that damn Joseph! Taxing people 14% of their crops to save up for a famine for distribution then! Damn him and his communist Egyptian government to hell!

And damn the communist US government as well, for having DARPA develop the Internet!!! Anybody who hangs out on that invention of forcibly extracted taxes oughta be hung from the rafters!!!


OMG! Ann Coulter is right! Joe McCarthy was a hero!!!!


Now it's all so clear!

[RapidCreek]

116. Well said!!!

That about sums her up for me my friend....Thanks for the concise eloquence....a skill I reeeaaaalllly need to work on!!!

RC

[grantdwilliams]

118. yep...

...all of those people you named went about doing what they did the wrong way. Coercion

[mbperrin]

133. So why do YOU use

this DARPA creation called the Internet? You just said that this was the wrong way.

Well, see ya!

[Nottingham]

109. So we get to the Survival of the fittest!

Well Japan China and Asia are fit and will probably take What MicroSoft has trained and given them and make a fitter program.

Heres the ? who is going to survive here?

[grantdwilliams]

119. It's probably pretty easy to make a good OS...

...when you have a billion slaves, I'm sorry, citizens at your disposal. Some of them have to be smart.

[H_NeverAgain]

113. To grantdwilliams

<Besides, if you were S. Korea and Japan, why would you be afraid of the US?>
Maybe because there are too many of your kind in USA, and worst, they lead (miss-lead would be more appropriate) it.

<We took care of them for almost 20 years from 1945 to 1965...>
It's an interesting way of taking care, sending "weapons of mass destruction" (it shows that republicans too like political correctness).
Ok, it's true that Japan started the war. But it's happened that we had the same imperialist government at this time that there is in USA now. Should that means that it'll be justified to use the same weapons against USA?

<I'd say that worked out well...>
Thanks we have worked hard :-).

<going from a primitive, superstitious, death-worshiping, brutal, and backwards society>
Interesting point of view... About primitive, it's true that it didn't stay a lot of infrastructure after the Americans' bombing. About the other points (and in fact also primitive), as I've mentioned previously, Japan of this time was like USA today, I let you getting conclusions...

<But then again, it could have all just been Buddha's doing.>
Maybe Japanese have some responsibility in it? Of course, not the great America gave us everything...
More seriously, it's true that USA "helped" us. But USA, as you, has a great consideration about self-interest. Then everything it did was only in the interest of the USA, even if sometimes it's happen that interests of the USA coincide with the interests of others countries. BTW, Japan have paid for American "help", and pay again in fact...

<If you ask me, (rational) greed is a good thing.>
No problem with raising tax then? After all, politics too have the right to be greedy, no?

<Microsoft doesn't control my OS.>
Maybe not, maybe yes. At least they try, and they don't care if you believe that you've acquired hypothetic rights in buying their products. I presume that you'll of think that an honest American company couldn't do that, then I suggest to look closely all the data that M$ try to collect from your computer. But of course, it's only for your own interest; never a private company will use such data for their own interest. But it's not against your theory?

<It's an evil nation that has no moral right to exist.>
When you do such judgement, you'll be better to think about what others countries think about USA. Because, if there will be a totally democratic poll (one human, one vote) on which country should be removed from the surface of the earth, be sure that it will not be China that will be chosen. But I presume that in such case, democracy become irrelevant...

<All I'm saying is that Hitler thought that it was a good idea for the individual to sacrifice him/herself to the group. So did Mao.>
So think Bush when he asks troops to die for unidentified goal.
And so think Fireman when he sacrifices his life to help other.
But I'm persuaded that you will never do such "stupidity". However I'm sure that you'll not only welcome, but asking strongly, to other to help you when you are in need.

<Alright... just for you.... I'll say that I think that rational self-interest should be one's highest moral purpose.>
Then if kill you to take your possessions, it's ok? After all, it's only in my self-interest to acquire more things.

<Individual Japanese citizens consenually purchased Microsoft's products...>
Wrong. Japanese citizens can't choice their systems, as M$ pressures PC builder to don't offer alternative by the way of its monopolist position.

<Japanese individuals have rights to life, liberty, and (consensually gained) property just like anyone else, and the Japanese government should respect this by not making their software decisions for them.>
And I thank my Japanese government to not only trying to secure public infrastructures by developing a better soft than M$ (not to hard), but also to give to citizens the opportunity to chose other product that M$.


<Overall, a free market does bring the greatest good to the greatest number. This is because it is accordance with the facts of reality and man's nature and collectivism is not. But I don't try to argue for the superiority of capitalism from the utilitarian standpoint that it best serves the collective.>
It seems that you miss something about capitalism. The aim of capitalism has nothing to do with your speech. The aim of capitalism is only to gain as much possible money in the quickest time, nothing more, nothing less.
It can have positive effects, but it's only accidental.
BTW, it's funny that all defender of capitalism and free-trade call the government at the rescue when the tide change...

Finally, I'm astonished by such believing on a progressive forum. Behind the subject of M$, you show a totally lack consideration for people and your "argumentation" (more exactly the lack of) could fit perfectly on Free Republic.

[grantdwilliams]

121. I don't even want to begin...

...to pick through this cesspool of mixed-premises and contradictions.

[RapidCreek]

124. Nicely said my friend!

You write very well for a non English speaker!!! Well Done! It's good to hear from someone who is Japanese! It'd be interesting to see the results of a poll of all Japanese citizens in regards to this isseu. I'd hazard to guess that 98% would agree with you. Anyone with a brain would. Thanks for participating in this debate. Your words are powerful.

RC

[H_NeverAgain]

127. Thanks for your appreciation.

But I fear that I'm far from fluent in English, I hope at least that my posts are not too unpleasant to read. Generally, I avoid to post, but as this poor fellow proclaimed to defend Japanese people (but feels no contradiction in bashing Japanese civilisation) I have felt the need to give a Japanese's point of view.
BTW, it seems that this kind of people doesn't like too much when the beneficiary of their presumed protection gives his opinion. :-)

About M$ in Japan, the majority of the public don't feel really concerned by the matter (even if it maybe difficult to find 2% to support M$ product :-) ). But Windows seems even worst in its Japanese version (foreign people hardly believe the problems that we meet here with this OS) and the last failure of M$ have provoked some disturbance in our public network. Then some worries start to grow here and the need of developing an alternative appears. Only a matter of public security in fact, something that Republicans should understand, isn't it? But it seems that double standard is their law everywhere ;-)

Then good luck in this dark period of the American's history.

[RapidCreek]

130. Hey Man....keep posting if it isn't too unpleasant!!

Americans need to hear the input of the people who we are all taught from an early age, we are so graciously protecting. You know, the folks all over the world we are supposedly greater than, smarter than and just generally better than....(what bullshit, eh?) I for one, really enjoy watching the news on English speaking Japanese, African and Middle Eastern and European stations. One of the best things other countries can do to counter right wing US media propoganda is to have English Speaking versions of their broadcast available on the internet....More and more Americans will begin to seek their news online..as it becomes more and more obviouse that media in the US is anything but free. I recently downloaded a little program called VTuner which attaches itself to RealPlayer. It has presets of Streaming TV and Radio stations from all over the world and has been a great source for the other side of the story. I am hoping to find a New Zealand Streaming station one of these days....as I think I would like to move their, one day.

As to double standards as they relate to Rupublivans....it defines them.

RC

[hel]

146. I always wondered..

why more Asian Windows boxes got hit (compared to European or American) on Worm-Virus attacks? We always hear that on news about viruses, "Asian networks got clogged, Asian economy suffered,..." You guys love forwarded e-mails or what? :)

[Nottingham]

120. Isn't it Ironic that its called Windows! Those windows are Dirty!

and Bill Gates needs to clean them up! Cause when ya open them
ya let Trash end

Wonder if it was named Windows so MS could see all your personal Data


The Word is out on Microsoft its not trustworthy the Windows Broken
and Asia is looking for something better.


On another note this Discussion was really fascinating and I enjoyed all of the comments

[Snow]

129. Back somewhat to on topic,

could part of the problem with MS Windows in those three countries be the need for double-byte fonts and MS's poor support for those? That used to be the case, dunno if if still is. Korean computers used to have the fonts and such actually on a board that made it a Korean operating system - not sure of the degree to which it was still really Windows. When my wife was doing translation, we could usually not read files (in Korean) from those computers, even with all sorts of Korean fonts installed on our machine. ANyone knowledgable about the situation currently? Has Unicode healed the mess?

[RapidCreek]

134. I think it is much simpler than that....

Americans have historically been victimized by marketers and bean counters who have no knowledge of the product lines they direct and are selling. Their only frame of reference is short term smash and grab, inflated bottom lines, generated not through quality but shortcuts and vacuous advertising. It is all they are capable of understanding. They have never listened to 'workers' because workers "are stupid people who get their hands dirty". Functionality and efficiency have never been a concern. The automobile market is a classic example. The Japanese on the other hand place a great deal of importance on the input of workers as it concerns production, design and quality control. Look into Demming TQM and Quality Circles. Demming was an American who's theory of Total Quality Management flew in the face of US businesses the Marketer/Bean Counter run model of management. He was derided by US industry management because he pointed out the fallacy that a managerial structure who has no functional understanding of design quality, effective production and the value of the worker, can effectively run a company in a true capitalist system. His ideas were of course discounted as they suggested that US industrial business management was run by brainless parasites. Ironically it was the very arrogance of american management he addressed that led him to share his ideas with the Japanese. He went to Japan where his theories were embraced and implemented. Welll...I'll be....more American ingenuity stolen by those pesky little yellow men, eh? Initially Japanese and German products were not attacked on either their functionality or efficiency...the hue and cry from American marketers was an empty but easily digested argument that foriegn products were cheap junk. Whatever that meant. What they were not, was non-functional or inefficient. In the seventies, Joe citizen became very much aware of this fact and saw beyond the big, flashy, bloat is good argument made by American Auto Sellers. They quit buying piece of shit, poorly designed, poorly built, gas guzzling, unsafe Oldsmobuicks and went for Honda Accords instead. Eventually American auto-builders had to pay the Japanese to compete against themselves and or show them how to build a proper automobile in order to stay afloat. As a former wrench, I can tell you that most current "American Automobiles" are about 30 percent American...both design wise and manufacture wise.

EXACTLY The same argument Grant is making in defense of Microsoft and against Japan was made concerning the American Auto industry versus the state funded Japanese Auto industry. The validity of the argument is lacking however, as history has proved, quite plainly. Because the US bidness man thinks he is smarter than those he "manages", the stupid people who build and design product, blue collar folks who get their hands dirty, the Japanese kicked collective ass in the Auto industry. The same will hold true for OS's as well. The Japanese are smart. They sit back and watch these clever American businessman parasites drive the very valuable and brilliant efforts of the worker into the ground while stuffing their pockets full of cash. They then take the idea of the worker...where ever they may be from.... and empower their own workers to embellish upon it, refine it and bring it to its pinnacle. They then sell the resultant product based upon it's quality and functional superiority and the invisible hand pushes the US bidness man and the "stupid people" he employs to the curb. What do we in the US end up with? Whining, empty headed, parasitic bidness men, unemployed "stupid people", tariffs, taxes and import duties, all of which are diametrically opposed to Smiths Theory of Capitalism.

RC

[Nottingham]

135. Heres Proof that the Billions Gates donated to India Helped

http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=4DF612B9-4D5C-4869-83398237FB3B1751&title=World%20Bank%20Sees%20Higher%20Growth%20Rates%20for%20South%20Asia

"The services, of course, has been one of the underpinnings of growth in India," he explained. "Exports of services have been averaging 18 percent growth per annum over the last decade, which is just tremendous amount of growth and there is no reason why that should not continue into the future."



World Bank Sees Higher Growth Rates for South Asia is the name of the article

Compliments to Gates and CEO's of America by Outsourcing jobs to other Nations like India And Asia they are destroying our economy and promoting Asia's economy

and the Irony is that We trained them and Gates gave them the technology to copy and now they are out to Destroy Microsoft

Get ready Billy they are going to be the Next billionaires
Maybe he should be called a Citizen of India & China rather than be called American! I love how these CEO's want to make profits and they venture out to the cheap wages of China. But the Government of China want Money too and they are Not controlled by the BIG POWER to be and so there is the Ultimate destruction oc Capitalism of its own making. Soon Bill Gates will be known the traitor he is to this country! :bounce:

[0rganism]

140. Robertson is disingenuous; Microsoft gets billions in gov't contracts

> Tom Robertson, Microsoft's Tokyo-based director for government
> affairs in Asia, told Reuters. "Governments should not be in the
> position to decide who the winners are."

In other words, it's all well-and-good until someone else gets the bid. China has a national security interest in developing a different OS from MS, basing their infrastructure on something more stable and free of American pursestrings.

[tedzbear]

141. So what's the big deal?

That's what globalization is all about: the freedom to compete with new products. I don't see anything wrong with Japan and China developing an open source OS if they want to. Japan has always excelled at taking American products and building them better. I think it's kind of nice that this late in the game Gates is suddenly faced with a potential assault on his monopoly.
I imagine this new OS will still run on the "Wintel" processor otherwise they will also have to design an entirely new CPU besides the new software.
If they really wanted to wreak havoc with Wintel they should form a strategic partnership with Apple and license that OS and CPU for Asia's so called "next generation" PC's. That way Apple could finally find itself in a level playing field.

:bounce:

[Nottingham]

143. Oh TeddyBear! HAHA! Guess who works for Apple! GORE!!!

Is that just Hillarious!

Wait till Europe figures out they need their OWN WINDOWS

Gates has shaken hands with Bush and now is contaminated!

:bounce:

You can give every American job to Asia but then Who is gonna protect you when things go wrong!

Not the American screwed people!