Court: Parents May Spank - Force Not Always Abuse, Judges Say

[private_ryan]

as someone who got it as a kid, I have no problems with a smack here and there.
//////
Parents who spank their children as a form of discipline are not necessarily engaging in child abuse, even when they use a belt and leave a bruise, the state Appellate Court has said.

In a ruling released Monday, the judges recognized a parent's right to use "reasonable physical force" to discipline a child. They said that, before citing someone for physical abuse, the Department of Children and Families must take into account the circumstances surrounding the use of corporal punishment.

The judges said the agency's position that any non-accidental injury caused by a parent to a child qualifies as abuse is too narrow and in conflict with state law that allows "reasonable" corporal punishment of a child.
http://www.ctnow.com/hc-dcfspanked1130.artnov30,0,3789539.story

[LeftyMom]

1. They used to say the same about wives

It shouldn't be legal to hit anyone except in self defense.

[loathesomeshrub]

6. I am sorry, I applaud this judge.The chance of a good parent being

treated like an abuser and prosecuted because they choose to physically discipline their child has become to great. My kids got spanked when it was called for, and it could never have been called abuse by any stretch of the imagination. They have grown up to be great kids, and we continue to receive compliments on our upbringing. I hate to see the ineffectual parents at the store, where a kid is throwing a screaming tantrum, and the mother saying, now honey, that's not nice. Or no, we don't do that. Wouldn't hurt those out of control little brats to get a pop on the butt every once in a while. Strikes me that quite a few repuglicans would have benefited from some corporal punishment.

[LeftyMom]

11. Hitting is abuse

A "good husband" who hits his wife is an abuser. The fact that the same asshole can legally hit his kids (who are smaller and less capable of self defense or escape) is a travesty. That abusive "strict father" mentality is what gives us republicans.

[Mike Daniels]

50. Bad parenting doesn't follow political affiliation

Ride the metro in DC sometime and I guarantee you'll see people who fall squarely in the Democratic demographics yanking their kids off their feet, threatening them and wailing on them in public.

[Bush was AWOL]

62. Kids and a wife are different, no?

[LeftyMom]

66. Yep

Kids are usually smaller and less capable of defending themselves.

[Bush was AWOL]

70. No. A wife is beyond the age of needing to be reprimanded

or punished with force. I'm not talking about hiting them with your own hand, but a spoon or smack on the behind isn't going to hurt them. I do agree that a bruise would be excessive.

[MissMarple]

72. Hitting is a failure in parenting skills.

If your child is beyond your control, he or she needs help you cannot give by yourself. Don't hit the little people, ...that would be a bad thing.

[goddess40]

99. Well put!

thanks

[YellowRubberDuckie]

75. Allow me to refer you to a post in the Lounge

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x2125245

There is a usefulness to spanking...and I'm not talking about beating a child. I mean a light to moderate swat that gets their attention and makes sure the understand what they are doing is wrong and that they need to stop it. Comparing spousal abuse and spanking is melodramatic.
Duckie

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[politicat]

16. in the case of public tantrums, then parent and child need to leave venue.

Period. With my step-daughter, the tantrums were far worse when she was tired and should not have been in public to begin with. Her father and I made an agreement early on that if she misbehaved in public, we either left the place entirely and went home, or one of us took her to the car, outside, etc while the other one finished as quickly as possible.

I see parents with their kids at the grocery at 10, sometimes midnight on school nights and Fridays when I know the kids have been up since 6 or 7. Of COURSE the kids are cranky and whiny. They need more sleep than adults do. I see parents with kids at the bookstore, forcing the kids to stay with them in the adult section when the kids are clearly bored to tears, tired and tempted. It's not kind to dangle something in front of a person and then say "no, you can't have/look/taste it." How would you feel if someone took you to your favorite toy shop (be it books, music, electronics, tools, kitchen stuff, whatever) and then said "Nope, you can't look around. We have to go directly to the most boring part of the store and stay there." I'd have a tantrum too! Kids have a very strong sense of what is fair, and being a tempter like that is not fair. They learn quick enough that the world isn't fair... the least that parents can do is to treat their children fairly.

Are parents more selfish than they used to be? I think so, or at least, are less willing to give up their own desires for the needs of their child. I know that parents are also busier than they were when I was growing up, so perhaps the need to snatch even a few minutes to themselves is greater. They also don't seem - as a class - to have the consideration for others that was one of my parents' better traits. Yeah, it's damn inconvenient to have to abandon a cart full of groceries when the kid gets cranky, but my inconvenience is pretty small when compared to the inconvenience and annoyance that my cranky six year old causes to a few dozen people when I make the mistake of not listening to her needs.

Maybe that's the problem... which is related to cellphones, anti-social driving, and movie theater chatter... somewhere in our culture, we forgot to teach the people who are now adults to consider the comfort of others.

Pcat

[Wabbajack]

20. Bravo!

A former child appreciates your post. :)

[Carla in Ca]

24. I second that!

Eradicating child abuse is good but to have a spank on the bottom be included is a mistake that we all pay for. Lack of discipline is beginning to have it's effects. A lot of kids don't respect their parents at all. I for one commend you parents that correct unruly kids. The rest of us truly appreciate it.

[politicat]

45. For the record, I don't advocate spanking. At all. Ever.

I'm working to get it banned in my state's public schools (this is not something that should be delegated to the schools, and is entirely inappropriate when it's a 6 foot 6, 300 pound principal spanking an 85 pound ten year old).

As soon as we get that, we're taking on Focus on the Family directly and going after their infant spanking program. Then we'll go after protecting older children.

There are far better ways to discipline a child. They require creativity and forethought and patience. A spanking requires none of those. From my observations, spankings come out of anger and frustration. Discipline requires parental self-discipline.

That latter, of course, is in very short supply.

I'm glad my step-daughter is a teenager... she's much easier to deal with now.

Pcat

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

69. Infant spanking?!?!?!?!

Please tell me that they are not spanking babies!!!! And this is institutionalized?

I could never spank my daughter. My husband and I had several discussions about it. We were both spanked as children - no real damage done. But I could never hit my child. I really see it as an expression of violence. I will not allow my daughter to be hit.

Of course, I am very lucky as my daughter is a (nearly) perfect angel. Don't know what I would do with an incorrigible who is unaffected by punishment. My neice is one, and frankly she is also unaffected by being hit with a wooden spoon.

[LeighAnn]

105. Principal Orendorff

In grade school there were a few "bad" kids that got paddled for egregious behavior, but generally none of us did, ever, because we knew if we got paddled at school that we would get it twice as bad when we got home!

Nowadays, there is no corporal punishment in most schools, but you see long lines of children waiting to get their "meds".

I used to be 100% against corporal punishment, but as the number of children being prescribed "behavior modification drugs" has become epidemic, I'm thinking there might be something to the whole spanking thing. The rise in this phenomena seems to correspond directly with the promotion of "time-out only" parenting.

My grandmothers ended up being right about most of the things I disagreed with them on, it might be true in this case, too.

[JohnLocke]

106. What bullshit.

"...as the number of children being prescribed 'behavior modification drugs' has become epidemic, I'm thinking there might be something to the whole spanking thing. The rise in this phenomena seems to correspond directly with the promotion of 'time-out only' parenting."

No evidence, I'm sure. :eyes:

[LeighAnn]

112. "Mid to Late Eighties?"

I don't have stats, that's just when I seem to remember it all happening. That's when I first started noticing people having their kids on amphetamines, I mean lots of people. I remember thinking, "Wow, I'll bet that would have helped Ritchie Pitch! (who was the kid in school most likely to get paddled).

Now these kids line up to get their amphetamines. Sometimes now I wonder how much cooler school might have been if they'd given me a steady diet of amphetamines while I was there. I can only imagine the focus. But what does that do to a person's body over time?

To me, feeding amphetamines to a child who doesn't need them is far more abusive than spanking.


Oh also
And the eighties is when I remember "Time Out" being talked about (alot) in the media, presented as, "This is the only appropriate way to parent your child".

[TahitiNut]

21. It's called c-o-n-s-i-d-e-r-a-t-i-o-n

And it's a skill in very short supply these days. Having moved back to Michigan last year after 20 years on the left coast, I'm beyond appalled at how inconsiderate people are in this area (south Oakland County); worse than anything I saw on the left coast (SF Bay Area, eastern Washington, etc.).

People stop to chat or get their bearings right smack dab in doorways, the center of the grocery aisle, the center of the residential street (in their cars), and seemingly in the most inconsiderate location they can find. I've gotten to the point where I'm thinking it's a kind of conscious passive-aggressive behavior. In line to check out? Even if you're only carrying an item or two, cash in hand, the kid karavan ahead wouldn't even think of saying "go ahead" (something I do all the time). It's every single day. If there's a line waiting, people chat with the cashier. The cashier chats with co-workers or on the phone and ignores the line.

In stores, it seems every mom of two or more kids has neither neighbors, friends, family, nor money for a sitter. (I really don't understand why they don't 'time share' - they did on the left coast.) The kids require attention and block shopper traffic every time you turn around. And wail! The kids are short of sleep, high on sugar and caffeine, and dragged around like baggage. I spend some time in parks (for my sanity) but rarely see kids playing under the gaze of a parent.

It's f*cking antisocial.

If it's a power trip, it's very counterproductive. I personally feel much, much more empowered when I hold a door, let someone go ahead, leave time on a parking meter, and do the many little things that help smooth life's bumpy road for others. I feel more like me and taking control of myself.

[undergroundpanther]

41. YOU GO PCat You rock!!!

[MissMarple]

73. Sorry, politicat, I should have read more of the posts.

However, if one is by oneself, don't hit the child, folks. If you have to.. smack your own self. Clarity of mind, and all that. :D

[SKKY]

27. I've gotta go with the loathessomeshrub on this one...

...if for no other reason than to ensure how I raise my soon-to-be-born child is left in my hands. If I want to give him a pop on the behind to get his attention, I think I should be able to. I don't think I'll make him walk outside and get his own switch though- like my Dad did to me. That sucked ass.

[kostya]

65. Sorry, there is no (NO!) excuse for hitting a child. Just because

it has been done in the past doesn't make it right or even useful. Just because it appears to get a desirable short-term result does not justify the damage it causes long-term to the child and your relationship to the child and the child's relationship to the world.

I agree with you about kids throwing tantrums, but hitting is not the answer. There are plenty of other techniques to address that and many other situations where parents simply feel corporal punishment is appropriate. If you have to resort to hitting a child then you are the one being childish and not considering alternatives as an adult would.

Ask yourself this simple question: If an adult were displaying the behaviors that kids display (which are usually harmless) would you think about popping them one? Really? Then why in heaven's name would you do it to a defenseless child.

The problems you seen in Repuglicans were more than likely brought about by the use of corporal punishment not the lack of it.

- K

Highly recommend you read "Spare the Child" by Philip Greven or just about any book by Alice Miller to get a better perspective on this.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

90. Kid misbhaviors are usually harmless?

Drugs, crime, running into traffic, theft from family, sex at an early age, violence, skipping school, etc.

No, I all in the spank if absolutely necessary category. And I am wildly opposed to a government having control on how I raise my kids.

[gollygee]

92. Tantrums are a normal developmental stage

All children - or at least the vast majority - go through a stage where they have strong emotions and get scared and overwhelmed by them. That is what leads to tantrums - they are normal. There is no reason to spank a child for not outgrowing that developmental stage any more than there would be a reason for spanking a child for not learning to walk yet.

[TahitiNut]

22. I agree.

Even animals get hit less than many kids.

[LeighAnn]

30. Better to put them on Ritalin than to spank their butts!

Good Lord, most of our ancestors would be prosecuted by many of today's standards. Even "Pa Ingalls". You've got to wonder how mankind as a species ever survived before we had psychologists put on earth to make everything a better place.

http://www.hereinreality.com/childprotection/

[Mike Daniels]

49. There are times where a spank is necessary

Children who are too young to respond to deprivation methods of punishment need some form of negative reinforcement to discourage them from dangerous behavior.

My parents used spanking in such cases and relatively rarely at that. They never drew blood, caused any sort of blemish or created any emotional issues.

The judge made a proper decision. Parents should have the freedom to punish their children as they fit and within reason without having to worry about some busybody neighbor calling the cops on a trivial issue.

[Bush was AWOL]

61. Please. A little tough love will go along way with a kid

I got it as a kid, and it straightened me out most of the time. I deserved what I got and it made me a better person.

[LeftyMom]

64. You're not the only one who "got what they deserved"

toss in "he's under a lot of stress lately" and they give you a free toaster at the battered women's shelter.

There's no excuse for hitting another human being when they aren't any threat to you. Period.

[Bush was AWOL]

71. Punishing or hitting your kids over your own stress is unacceptable

I'm talking about punishing them for severely breaking the rules or jepordizing their own safety.

[VivaKerry]

2. Injury is injury. "non-accidental" injury is a bullshit term

My parents were fully capable of letting me know 'the law' without injuring me.

I am sorry.. I am middle aged, and it is all I can do to NOT smack other people's out of control children in public (oh, I forgot! Their children are brilliant and CHALLENGED!!! LOL). The only thing that stops me is the conundrum I face in deciding whether to whack their obnoxious kid OR the parent directly for bringing up such unconscious little brats.

Flame away.. parents of 'gifted' children who drive everyone nuts!!! LOL

[sandnsea]

3. A belt and a bruise???

Oh hell no. There is never a reason to use a belt and never a reason to leave a bruise. Lines need to be drawn and that's where you draw them.

[vpigrad]

46. Agreed!

> There is never a reason to use a belt

Absolutely true! Too many of those people that are beaten with tools turn into adults who buy tools made for violence like large knives and guns. Child abuse creates gun owners, not just gun owners, but angry and emotionally unstable ones.

[alphafemale]

4. So...the only people safe from physical assault are children?

Even if there are welts or bruises children are not safe?

A swat is indeed one thing, done with open hand.

Bruises and welts are signs of sadistic torture, especially with a weapon with a paddle or belt. Sick fuck of a parent wants to hurt the child worse than they want to sting their hand. :mad:

Tell me. Are assault charges dropped on me if I give someone what they are giving a helpless little kid? :grr:

edit in title line
-
twice

(This topic rattled me)

[LynnTheDem]

5. It's the "christian moral values"; spare the rod, spoil the child

Soon men will again be permitted to belt their women.

[Trillo]

7. I was spanked many times by my father.

Finally, when I got a little too old for spanking, when he "lost his temper" and once again decided to spank me, I almost killed him in self-defense with a fluid movement that removed his grip from the belt at my backside and shoved him down a flight of stairs.

Isn't physical "education" grand?

He never touched me in anger again. The sad part is, whenever he touched me till the day he died (even a friendly hug), I was always nervous about his "unrevealed intentions."

From the day of the first spanking, the relationship was doomed. I deserved better. So do you.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

14. Well said...

:hug:

[Der Blaue Engel]

19. I had a very similar experience at 15

I had to knee my dad in the groin severely to get out of his grip after he wrestled me to the ground when I said he wasn't going to spank me anymore.

He was definitely a "spare the rod and spoil the child" type who read and quoted Dr. Dobson (a psycho xian) constantly.

I no longer speak to him because he started the same thing on my kid after I had expressly forbidden it.

[TahitiNut]

25. My father came at me the last time when I was 19.

He'd been drinking, of course. I snapped. One of the balled fists I'd always kept at my side just let loose. I nailed him on the jaw with an uppercut, broke both of his dental plates, and knocked him out cold. I dragged him into his bed. When he awoke some time later, I told him he slipped on a throw rug and hit his jaw on a doorknob. (I think he knew.) He never tried to hit me again. Ever.

[Dogmudgeon]

37. Similar to my experience, too

I was 22 or so at the time, and the Old Man lost his temper and threatened to beat me. I think I had been entertaining a girlfriend of mine in my room. He decided that he didn't like that, after years of encouraging me to "score". (Irony time -- I was not sexually active with the girl in question.)

I told him that he'd better take his best shot when he did, because if I couldn't kill him immediately, I would kill him within 24 hours.

He went pale and slinked off to his room. After that, he and I became much closer. It was one of those machismo things that he grew up with and went to war with, a sick kind of bonding experience. He also liked it when I called him "The Old Man", but nobody else -- it was a military thing, I was told.

I didn't knock it, though, because although I didn't know it right then, he was developing cerebrovascular dementia, and could be impossible to deal with when he was in a bad mood. He had also been an abused child, and grew up in a tough neighborhood -- his father, a cop in Prohibition-era Chicago, developed an organic psychosis after being shot by mobsters, and would lash at almost at random.

So, yeah, I'd say that corporal punishment is way too destructive to use beyond the occasional slap on a tot's clothed rump. And even that's probably too much, but I don't feel that I have the right to moralize on other people. But the cycle of violence has to be broken at some point. I'm glad I was able to do that with my father, although it came later in life than I would have liked, and took a dramatic confrontation.

--p!

[politicat]

8. how do we teach them not to hit their peers if the punishment for doing so

is to hit them? It's not okay for an adult to hit another adult, it's not okay for a child to hit another child, but it's okay for an adult to hit a child? I see a logical disconnect there.

I was smacked around as a child - nothing that left bruises (normally) or did any real physical damage - but I know that it did emotional and psychological damage. It destroyed my relationship with my father and strained it with my mother. I didn't and still don't feel that I could trust them to live up to the standards of behavior they set because they violated them.

I think the problem with most of the parents who don't use corporal punishment and let their children run wild is the second part of that statement - they let their child run wild. One can discipline a child without hitting; one of my favorite forms is "drop and give me ten." (It worked great with my step-daughter.) There's also the consistency issue. Every infraction must be dealt with consistently. (i.e. don't ground and then let the kid off because you're tired of putting up with zer, or ground and then give exemptions for special events.) And discipline must be tailored to each child; for me growing up, the worst thing my parents could do was to take away my books (which they never did); that would have reinforced the message far better than hitting me, which just made me rebellious. With my step-daughter, being conspicuous was what bothered her most, so discipline involved logical consequences and public notice. (i.e. if she was cruel to another child, she had to apologize to that child in public, in full view of her parents, the other child's family, etc.)

In my practice, I've never met a child for whom corporal punishment helped; mostly it washed over the child; sometimes it reinforced the notion that might makes right; usually it instilled the 11th commandment - don't get caught. It did not change the behavior significantly.

But then again, parenting is not something that anyone gets training for. This may be most of the problem.

Pcat

[Ian David]

9. Nobody should be spanked until they're old enough to enjoy it

[LosinIt]

13. Ohhhh, baby!!!

[BlueOhio]

52. hehe..

:spank:

[alphafemale]

10. "One can discipline a child without hitting" - Exactly! nt

[LeighAnn]

32. exception

With all due respect, I have to take exception to your statement,

"But then again, parenting is not something that anyone gets training for. This may be most of the problem."

First of all, for centuries mankind received "parenting training" by watching their own parents, and by helping their parents care for their younger siblings (back in the day, most families had lots of kids so you learned to take care of babies by growing up taking care of babies).

Secondly, you find me a high school in America that doesn't have mandatory "Family Life" classes.

It wasn't until my own "family life" class in 11th grade that I found out how horrible my parents were. To think, they spanked me a few times and sometimes they teased me! According to the textbook, I was physically and emotionally abused as a child. At that moment I became a "victim" (even though I hadn't been spanked in 10 years, suddenly I realized how victimized I had been by my child-abuser parents).

No, my parents didn't live up to the Family Living textbook at all. It turned out, they were doing almost everthing wrong. I spent a lot of time in my 20s resenting my shoddy upbringing, which as a thirty-something I now realize was appropriate, and wonderful.

No, there are plenty of ways to learn parenting, it's just that in our modern society most of them are wrong.

[politicat]

42. Most high schools in my area and in the area I went to HS in don't have

such required classes; they're expensive classes and in the NCLB days, too subjective and too hard to quantify. You can't do a bubble test on a sponge cake (being sarcastic.). It's all budget cuts. So, please tell me where this is required. It's not in Colorado and Arizona.

I'm in Eastern Colorado and I attended HS within the last 15 years and have step and half siblings in HS now in Arizona. Up here, In BVSD, life Mgt is elective. Kids can take Computers, Business Arts, Industrial Tech or Life Management. Most kids don't take the latter. In Adams 5, same-same. In St. Vrain, same same. (These are the local school districts.) They're 5 credit classes - which means one semester. In MPD, where my sibs and I graduated, they were unpopular electives; none of us took 'em; my baby sister is doing her practical class this year and took Practical Web Design. So, no, the schools aren't, in my experience, requiring kids to take parenting classes, and even when they are, a single semester in 9th grade isn't enough when Dot-com Daddy and Marketing Maven Mumsy have their little Kellar and Brittany in their mid thirties.

Further, *my* parents were in the top 10 % of parents who should not be teaching parenting and family life. (Domestic abuse, child abuse, public adultery, financial mismanagement, multiples divorces and remarriages, among other things.) There are a lot of parents out there that should not be the models for "Bringing up Baby." (good movie, though.) That's how the "cycle of violence" is perpetuated and a good part of the reason most of the kids in my office ended up in my office. (You want to come in and see it first hand? I've still got contacts in the Juvenile Mental Health system...) Stellar parents are as rare as horrible ones - it's that bell curve catching up with us again. But, barely competent parents are not competent to TEACH parenting. They're too busy doing it.

And sorry, I can't see advocating that everyone go back to having a half-dozen kids just so the elder children get to practice on their younger sibs, and the younger ones get to practice on their nieces and nephews. And I can't advocate staying near the natal family and the ancestral birthplace. The world had changed. We've moved on.

The ways to learn parenting aren't so much wrong as unavailable. The old methods don't work anymore because the old social and cultural communities are changed. My closest relative is 1000 miles away. If I changed my mind and decided to add another child to this mix, I'd be entirely without support because I don't have a church, being non-religious, and a baby isn't something I can drop off at Dem HQ. My neighbors are elderly and infirm. The social networks that my mother relied upon to help her learn to parent me and to help her raise me are just disintegrated for most people.

We have a vacuum in the culture. Something will fill it, but it's not quick.

Pcat

edited for spelling, punctuation, and late night fat-fingers.

[fleabert]

84. Lee HS in San Antonio Tx.

did not have a mandatory family life class. I graduated in early 90's and took it as an elective.

I agree with you on the ideal that we should learn good parenting by our parents and extended families, hence my belief in non-violence. I would not want to teach a child that hitting is okay.

[Andromeda]

110. I totally agree, LeighAnn....

many child-rearing theories have been bandied about and not one method is the right one. There is no perfect model for parenting.

We do watch by learning from our parents only to learn that our parents have doing all the wrong things and we feel cheated because we didn't have a "Leave it to Beaver" upbringing. They may think they've done perfectly fine only to look at us in horror we confront them with all their faults.

Somehow we grow up and look back to see the good and the bad. Some kids do have it worse than others and usually it serves to make them better parents to their own kids.

[fleabert]

83. Perfect perfect perfect!

I am going to print this out and keep it on my fridge. You said exactly what I have felt for years and could not articulate in less than an hour.

thank you.

[NamVetsWeeLass]

12. Oddly, as one that suffered not spankings but literal

Physical Assault (I'm talking broken bones.) at the hands of my Mother, I do indeed spank both Kids. Note, I said SPANK. Now while I do thoroughly believe that a spanking is OK, I don't condone the use of Belts, flyswatters (Got one used on me one time until I literally bled, the kind with the metal handle.) Kicking, (yep, got that too...) Punching full force with a closed fist (Yep, she was a Charmer was Mother...Hit harder than Most men I know.) or general mental torture isn't where raising a kid is. Do I talk to my Mother? Yeah, sometimes. She is an excellent Grandmother, which almost kills me to admit. Both my kids and My niece are like straight from heaven to her. Apparently, My Brother and I didn't count, we were for Practice or something. She states that None of the things that my Brother and I both recall happening ever happened. We are obviously delusional. But two of us remember. Hmmm. Before you ask, Yep I turned her in at one point, I was deemed an abusive Child and Deserved the Black Eye I was sporting to school. I Had been caught smoking, and had a lighter that she claimed I stole off her. Oddly, the lighter was one that I found on main street, literally on the sidewalk. It was brass colored metal, but since it resembled one she had, I stole it. That warranted a Black Eye. Child Protective Services sent a worker out, and when she did visit, I noted two coffee cups on a tray, One of them the Workers (it had lipstick on it, Mother doesn't wear lipstick.) There was a bottle of Irish Whiskey on the tray, and both cups smelled of it. Yet, I was an abusive Child...I deserved all the injuries she dealt out. Broken Ribs, A broken Jaw, dislocated Hip, One of her favorite things was to pinch us and draw blood, and leave scars. Another time, she literally drug me around by my hair, ripping it out by the handful...(that was the first part of the beating, I had stayed out an hour and a half later than she "allowed" but, I was in the house by 10pm.) That time also warranted black eyes, so bad that they were down black down to my jaw, a Broken jaw, a Dislocated Hip, and broken ribs and Nose.... :shrug: Would I consider this a "spanking" or appropriate punishment? Are you insane? I want my kids to know they are the world, If they need a swat on the ass to fill them in, So be it.

[prayin4rain]

55. That is terrible.

It is terrible all of the things that happened to you as a child.


I was spanked, I guess in the "healthy" sense. My brother spanks his children. The problem with spanking for me is when studies have been done, it has been found that children who were spanked have lower self-esteems than children who were not spanked. I believe spanking them does take a negative toll on them, and takes some of their personal power away from them. But, like I say I was spanked and I guess I am fine.

[PartyPooper]

15. My mother almost nailed it with a hammer she once threw at me.

But, fortunately, I ducked!

She used to ask me to remove my own belt before she beat me with it. When I got older I found it amusing-in a perverse sort of way. My laughter at this "ritualistic abuse" only brought on more rage from her. But, I was too old to cry. I was 15.

And, believe it or not, I was a good kid. I really was! *sigh*

:-(

[JohnOneillsMemory]

17. Go 'spank' a stranger on the street. Assault and battery gets ya time.

Fascism begins in the home by assuring that 'violence=justice.'

Google this and see what children go through at the hands of adults.
Or click here: http://www.actabuse.com/chartofcoercion.html

It's called 'Biderman's Chart of Coercions.'

Amnesty Int'l. created this definitive list of the 8 techniques used to break the mind and will of prisoners.

Now the chart is recognized as applicable to spousal abuse. I noticed that it also details the ways that parents, teachers, and other larger adults 'socialize' children.

So all humans go through the anguish of a tortured prisoner while we are helpless children and then carry emotional scars into our lives as adults.

Obviously, some are hurt more than others. Very animal specific but the generalization holds none the less. ("Hey, I got spanked and I'm fine!"-Lucky lucky you. But the planet is littered with the walking wounded who are mere shadows of a soul waiting to die.)

This explains why emotional disturbances have been passed from each generation to the next for a few million years making 'original sin' or hostility and violence a part of our species' nervous system to be reigned in with various control mechanisms-religion being the most prominent.

We are in the century where this cycle is finally recognized as needing to be broken so our evolution into socially cooperative and nurturing animals can continue, if we can get past the neo-con's efforts to PREVENT this evolution past violence as a primary indoctrination tool for their power structure.

[Gyre]

18. The criminal law non-stated standard

is whether the marks the parent leaves remain after a day.

[Swamp Rat]

23. Would Jesus spank babies?

[Traction]

28. Yes

It's all over the Bible. There is nothing wrong with lightly smacking some snot-nosed little brat.

[Swamp Rat]

31. Quote me chapter and verse where Jesus spanked a baby

"It's all over the Bible." - Which bible?

"There is nothing wrong with lightly smacking some snot-nosed little brat." - I was talking about babies, not "some snot-nosed little brat." - Violence is not a good solution to bad parenting.

[Blaq Dem]

34. He spanked monkies..

Just kidding.

[Swamp Rat]

36. HAHAHA!

[TahitiNut]

60. That'd make a good slogan ...

SPANKING is for MONKEYS!
Children are for hugging.
Don't hit your child!

[Traction]

39. Sorry, I wasn't talking about babies

Violence is not the answer, but lightly tapping kids is the answer against bratty kids. Nothing wrong with a spanking or even LIGHT hair pulling on a really bad kid. Years ago, kids were better and got hit all the time.

[Swamp Rat]

40. Sorry, there's nothing right about spanking kids or pulling their hair.

Years ago, kids who were hit, grew up to later commit violence. Years ago, kids were no better or worse than they are now.

Hitting children, for ANY reason, gives them the idea that violence is an option for solving problems.

[Traction]

77. Yore reply is exactly why we lost the elections

Criminals are much worse today. Millions of kids who were hit (not beaten) grew up to be great adults. Likewise, millions who played with toy guns and toy soldiers also turned out fine. Todays problems with bad egg teens who have no respect is because they weren't hit as kids. Violence IS always an option. Just look at wars. Sometimes it really is the only option (but not the Iraq war, which is totally unjustified).

[Swamp Rat]

78. HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! I caused Kerry to lose the election! HAHAHAHA!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! :D Oh shit! my stomach hurts!!!

"Criminals are much worse today." - Are fucking kidding me?!? Where the HELL did you get your education? You keep making things up and try, though very poorly, to pass it off as fact or true. C'mon! You gotta do better than this if you post here. x(

"Millions of kids who were hit (not beaten) grew up to be great adults." - Who, like Stalin? Genghis Khan? Napoleon Bonaparte? Alexander the Great? Ramses II? Adolf Hitler? Caligula? Have you EVER read a history book in your life? Even a middle school civics book?

"Violence IS always an option." - Sieg heil Eierkopf!

"Just look at wars." - "My GOD! It's full of stars!"... Please stay away from sharp objects!

[Traction]

79. I stand by what I said

Kids growing up years ago, such as in the 30's and 40's, were far more respectful. Crime was much lower years ago when everyone got hit. That's not an opinion, but a fact. I got hit when I was bad, and the worst illegal thing I ever did when I grew up was speed a little on the highway. My father was hit with a strap as kid for being bad, and he grew up to be a loving adult, married to one woman for nearly 50 years. You name extreme examples (such as Hitler), yet how do you even know they were hit as kids? Perhaps the Columbine killers weren't hit.

Yes, people like you did cost the election with moderates. They have no problems with liberals with sanity like myself, but are very weary of liberals who say hitting kids is always wrong, kids shouldn't play with toy guns, etc.

[Swamp Rat]

80. No, they were not more OR less respectful in the 30s and 40s.

Got any scientifically measured stats to demonstrate your theories? Be careful with your answers, I've studied both qualitative AND quantitative methodologies. :)

"Crime was much lower years ago when everyone got hit." - What does this sentence mean?

"That's not an opinion, but a fact." - Well, so far all you've stated was your opinion despite labeling it a "fact." Do we need to reference a dictionary now?

"... the worst illegal thing I ever did when I grew up was speed a little on the highway." It's hard to believe, but I'll take your word for it. Sorry you got hit when you were a child. :(

"You name extreme examples (such as Hitler), yet how do you even know they were hit as kids?" - Because I studied history. Apparently you didn't. To begin, shall we discuss Stalin? Do you know ANYTHING about his childhood? Oh, maybe that's too hard. How about Alexander the Great? At least there's a crappy movie about him. Did you see it last weekend?

"Perhaps the Columbine killers weren't hit." - Perhaps they were severely beaten because their parents thought kids behaved better in the 30s and 40s. We can "perhaps" all night, but I'd rather stay on Earth.

"Yes, people like you did cost the election with moderates." - Very entertaining! :D

"They have no problems with liberals..." - Wait! Didn't you mean 'librul'?

"... with sanity like myself," - This is rich! You're killing me! :D

"but are very weary of liberals who say hitting kids is always wrong, kids shouldn't play with toy guns, etc." - Damn straight! HUMANISTS do not believe in hurting people for ANY reason.

Any thing else dude?

[fleabert]

85. I think it would be very enlightening if you picked up the book...

The Culture of Fear: Why Americans Are Afraid of the Wrong Things
by Barry Glassner

Things are no worse today than they were at any other point in history. we just have 1. a larger population and 2. instant worldwide mass media that feeds on blood and guts.

Violence is wrong. period.

[ChicanoPwr]

87. That was a good one.

You made my morning.

You have to remember, reading books other than the "Good Book" makes us intellectual elites. I think we all know the answer to the questions you asked, "Have you EVER read a history book in your life? Even a middle school civics book?"

I bet that ignorant person one of those who also believes we the immoral people caused 9/11 because God was punishing us.

[Swamp Rat]

102. ¡Pura vida!

Ese pendejo no sabe nada, ¿no? Siempre me hagan enojado los babosos como él, porque se portan muy fachento y son un mal ejemplo para ver el mundo... desculpe, meu portugües é melhor, hace muchos años no hablo el español, pero estoy tratando recordármelo. ;)

[conflictgirl]

81. I can only assume this is a troll.

If not, I could provide you quite the list of horrific criminals of the past who were raised with lots of harsh discipline.

I was hit as a kid and while I'm a pretty well-adjusted, non-criminal member of society now, I certainly don't have respect for my parents having hit me. All it showed me was that they were unable to control their angry impulses and tried to justify it as being an effective discipline technique.

Violence as a means of solving a problem is a cop-out.

[ChicanoPwr]

89. It has to be a troll

You don't have to provide any kind of list to this ignorant fool, there are plenty of examples right now. This fool only has to walk through the ghettos and the barrios or any shopping area see all the spanking and other harsh disciplinary actions. So how come these areas are riddled with crime?

[ChicanoPwr]

91. I just love the way you describe children

"snot-nosed little brat" - Have you ever thought of the possibility that these so-called "brats" are imitating their parents behavior. Probably not, read a child development book and do us Humanists a favor increase your number of brain cells.

Let's do the world a favor - stop blaming the child, stop negatively labeling children are brats, and start teaching parents proper parenting techniques.

[Swamp Rat]

104. Es imposible

Creo que la única cosa que es posible es obtener una lobotomía. :D

[Dogmudgeon]

35. James "Spanky Booty" Dobson sez ...

... that "spanking" should commence at approximately 18 months of age.

He suggests using a switch on the baby's bare skin.

His kind of "Christians" are closer to the violent Berserker cultists from the early Indo-European invasion.

--p!

[Swamp Rat]

38. Bad Dobson! Bad boy! Go play with your dolls!

[FDRrocks]

26. Man I can't wait to beat my kids....

this country is starting to nauseate me.

[tibbir]

29. My mother was a great believer in corporal punishment....

When I was 4 years old I'd get a "whipping" with my father's belt if I got on her nerves (basically if she heard me make any noise in the house). That was unless she used her hair brush. For some reason I never understood, I'd wake up in the middle of the night because she was beating me over my head with the metal end of the belt. I'll be in therapy a long time because of her.

I chose not to use use corporal punishment with my son. He has ADHD and was always a 'high maintenance' kid but I found that using logical consequences worked very well.

My mother was probably the victim of child abuse from her mother. It explains why she did what she did I guess but it doesn't excuse it. I'm glad I was able to stop the chain at my generation. I don't think my son will hit his children when he has them.

[malletgirl02]

44. my parent's were like yours

fervent believers in corporal punishment, I never got hit in the head with metal end of a belt, my mom did hit me in my nose so hard one time so hard that it cause my nose to bleed when I was about 15. My dad was the one who punish my siblings and I he would hit us with his belt about 10 or 15 times. I'm really bitter about, I don't feel that I'm a grown up to be an especially good person due to the fact my parents spanked, me in fact I think I;m a worse person. was well behave, I never got in trouble in school. the reasons I got spank was not doing a good job cleaning the kitchen, or my room, and I was a little bit of a smart ass, due to the fact I stupidly pointed my parents hypocrisies. For example when my mom hit me in my nose it was while i was cleaning the kitchen, I was kind of in a bad mood due to school. my mom was complain how my siblings and I didn't pick up our plates right away, even though we had to clean the kitchen, I ask her why it was ok for her to leave her stuff in the living room and not for us, and then she hit me. corporal punishment doesn't work it makes people bitter. I'm still a smart ass getting spank has just made me better at not getting caught saying those things, and I'm also have the tendency to be passive aggressive, mostly because I had no way of dealing with my anger after my parents spanked me. tibbir, I commend you on being able to change break the cycle.

[Blaq Dem]

33. It's about time!

As bad as these kids are nowadays, it's about time somebody brought this issue to the fore front. If parents aren't going to spank their badass kids, then there are policemen around who have no trouble doing so.

It's for the good of society. As long as the child isn't beaten like bowl pancake batter, it's alright.

[undergroundpanther]

43. Blaq You make me sick

Parents who cannot figure out hitting is assault are fucked up and creating abusive future generations.

What if I was to smack you for your indecent statement?
Since you callousness offended me,and your additude is sickening..Why don't I help you remember how being hit by a parent feels.
How would you respond to me if I were to put my hand to your face and dehumanize you like a child,like you were a little punching bag getting an "uppity" additude??
I bet you'd try to deck me back wouldn't you? You'd be really pissed off. You'd call the cops ..Right?

What if you were smaller than me and could not hit back??
What if you depended on me for shelter food, comfort when you were sick,and love?
Would you still be feeling violated by my violence and smacking me back if I was not me but were your motheror father and you were a small kid completely under my care and power and knew if you hit back you may be hit worse or kicked out and there is NOTHING you can do??

Being dehumanized, dominated and discounted sucks

Spanking teaches but it teaches the wrong things:

1. Avoid getting caught.
2. Lie if you do get caught.
3. Pick on someone smaller.

How does spanking teach kids to lie?

If a big, angry person with a belt was standing over you yelling, "Did you do this?", what would you say? Of course children lie in such situations. Do we really expect them to say, "Yes, I did it. Beat me to death?"

Spanking is the primary means of implanting the "punishment principle" in the child and, consequently, becomes an integral part of the child's being and upbringing which later has to be unlearned as an adult. But the idea and the indelible impression on the memory can never be completely eliminated or erased.

Spanking is primarily an adult or parental problem. When the spanking situation is analyzed, in nearly every incident there is a personal problem of parents who resorted to the use of the "rod." It was really the adult ego that had been defied, an adult order disobeyed, an adult request denied, adult authority challenged, adult pride or adult respect offended.

[kostya]

67. See my post above. No child should be struck by an adult!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1034631&mesg_id=1037751

[conflictgirl]

82. Spanking is illegal in some countries and look where its gotten them!

Sweden, Norway, Finland, and Austria are some of the countries where spanking is illegal. You know, those big international hotbeds of crime we're always hearing about? Thank goodness our society isn't like theirs! Because here where spanking is legal, we certainly don't have any problems with crime. If only we'd hit our kids more, our society would be perfect. Bad kids result only from not getting hit enough by parents, certainly not from parents who are never home, kids not having limits, dangerous schools, poor nutrition, not enough time spent with people who care about them personally, like grandparents or caring neighbors. Surely the problem is NOT that our society is becoming more disconnected from each other and that negatively impacts kids' behavior. We just need to hit the kids more so they know who's boss.

/sarcasm

[bleedingheart]

47. leaving a bruise????

sorry that is wrong...now don't get me wrong...I have spanked my kids as a warning not to run into the street again or to touch a hot stove...but those "spankings" were more to associate an object or action with a smack...but never never never have I ever spanked hard enough to leave a bruise.

Taking away a toy or time out have typically worked for me...

[jhain]

48. disgusting

add another horror to the list of embarrassments being an American has become.


http://www.nospank.net/toc.htm

[noamnety]

51. Assault is wrong

Doesn't matter if it's a child, a spouse, or a stranger.

Anyone that can't figure out a third option to hitting or letting their kids run wild is lacking some parenting skills.

(judgmental, but I can be that way, being someone who broke the cycle in my family)

[RuleofLaw]

53. Once again USA shows how it is stuck in the past

Now tell me this. Are European children more unruly than American kids? More violent? Maybe the Europeans knows something we don't!


"In the name of children's rights, nations across Europe pass - or consider - laws to limit spanking.

Whenever Louise Sylwander is in England, and sees a mother smacking her naughty child, she is shocked.

In Sweden, where Ms. Sylwander is the government's ombudsman for children, "people who spank their children are considered very odd or very mean," she says.

Indeed, they are outlaws. Spanking children, whether at school or in the home, has been banned in Sweden since 1979. Seven European nations have passed similar laws since then, and more are following suit as children's rights win wider recognition.

"Not long ago men were allowed to hit their servants, their wives, and their children," Sylwander points out. They no longer hit their servants or their wives she hopes, and it's time to stop hitting their children.

The trend has even reached Britain, the last country in Europe to ban corporal punishment in schools, where the practice was outlawed only last year - 216 years after Poland passed such a law. (In the United States, 27 states forbid the use of physical punishment in schools, but none have prohibited parents from spanking their children.)"

http://www.corpun.com/eud00002.htm

[Eurobabe]

54. As a parent of two well adjusted 20 yr. olds who gave me NO problems

as kids....probably because I knew the fine line between control and discipline -- I am a staunch advocate of a swat here and there. But only if the child is doing something that could be life threatening, or refuses to listen.

I don't think leaving bruises is appropriate, nor do I advocate the swatting with anything other than a hand. Using implements to discipline is non-productive and just plain dumb because in a rage you can get carried away, and not know how much physial damage you are inflicting. I never thought using a belt was a wise thing to do...

[patcox2]

56. When your kid plays with the stove, or an electrical outlet, its time.

Sorry to everyone with the strawman and slippery slope arguments, but abuse is always a poor argument against use. This poster mentions using corporal punishment to deter life-threatening behavior. Thats the only time I ever used it, when my very able and active 3 year old started playing with an electrical outlet, and again when he turned on the stove. Because I otherwise never hit him, it made a big impression and he has never messed with those things again.

[NashVegas]

58. Or Wanders 10 Blocks from the Neighborhood

Never got spanked for playing with the stove (the singed head was price enough) or outlets, but I did once get the spanking of my life after wandering away without word, for a few hours. First grade. When I got home my mom was *freaked* with worry. I was informed I'd be spanked and was sent straight to my room for an hour while she calmed herself down.

As a child I probably got spanked two or three times, my brothers as well, and it was never delivered while my mom was still angry. As a single mother I reckon she needed to use whatever options she felt necessary to establish herself as the home ruler.

[laundry_queen]

63. Never understood this either.

If the slippery slope abuse thing is a poor argument, then so is hurting your kid to stop him/her from hurting him/herself. "I'm uspet because you could've gotten hurt, so I am hurting you." mmmhmm.
You don't need to spank to make an impression in those circumstances. There are other ways.
I have children and I have never spanked. And I am continuously complimented on my childrens' behavior. Spanking is the lazy way out imo.

[LeftyMom]

68. You hit your kid

when what you needed to do is babyproof?

Lovely.

[gollygee]

94. How about child-proofing?

I have plastic plugs in the outlets and safety devices that make it so my daughter can't turn on the stove. :shrug:

[Throckmorton]

95. How well do they work for your 5 year old?

Both of my kids could defeat plastic plugs and stove knob locks by their 5th birthday.

Not that I'm defending spanking, but both of my kids have gone significant periods without television, video games, or computers as punishment. They are 8 and 9 and this works wonders with them.

[gollygee]

96. I'm responding to a post about a 3-year old

There are other ways to teach 5-year-olds about safety.

[livinginphotographs]

57. A SWAT is okay, a BRUISE is not.

I personally got swats as a child (never a belt, never a spanking, never a bruise) and I turned out fine.

I've read some of the incredibly extreme examples on this thread, and I don't think anyone is advocating that kind of flat-out abuse. But an occasional swat is fine with me, and only with an open hand, and never in the face. If you leave a bruise, you're definitely doing it too hard.

I think the difference between this and the comparisons to spousal abuse is that your spouse is supposed to be your equal, not someone whom you have to discipline. On the other hand, a child is someone that you are supposed to discipline.

It definitely is a gray area in some aspects, and I think it comes down to common sense, which I admit a lot of parents probably don't have. I would never wanted to have seen my parents carted off to jail for lightly tapping me, though.

[politicat]

59. the problem with a "swat" is adults are far larger and stronger than kids.

Their skin is tougher, they have more input coming into the brain and so may not filter properly, and adrenaline deadens the nerve endings.

A 5'4" woman with an average build and an average tennis swing has about 60 pounds of force behind it. (That's my swing.) That's approximately the force of the average swat. So you have sixty pounds of force concentrating on an area that is about 9 square inches. The breaking point for a bone for a child at age three is 70 pounds over 10 square inches. If a parent gets carried away, they can break a bone - and usually a femur - with only slightly more force than the average spanking. Add adrenaline and the fact that our skin is just not baby fine anymore, and you have a high potential for disaster.

It only takes 30 pounds of force to leave a bruise on a child under the age of six. Baby skin bruises easily. I have seen children bruise by taking them out of their car seat. I bruise and always have if I brush up against certain surfaces. As a child, I looked like an abuse case, and every spanking left me with hemotomas and contusions. That means my parents used too much force with me. Period. But since children are so delicate, it's very easy to do.

Common sense isn't. I've seen too many poor parents to want to trust any of them. Work in social services a while. It makes you really cautious.

Pcat

[pauliedangerously]

74. The moral absolutism on this subject amuses me

OOOhhhh...there's NEVER a reason to hit a CHILD. BOOOHOOOOO. My mother and father hit me when I was a kid...my brother and I got into lots of trouble. There was also a great deal of lecturing...way more of that than spanking. In fact, I used to prefer the spankings to the damned lectures because they didn't take as long.

All you people and your pathetic moral judgements on spanking children sound just like the pro-lifers. It's none of your goddamned business if people decide to spank their kids. If kids show up in school with suspicious bruises of signs of trauma, I can understand the government stepping in, but a belt across the ass used to get a little whippersnapper's attention is a parental choice.

If you don't want to spank and you think you have a better solution, then go ahead and implement it, but don't go around micromanaging everyone else's family policies.

In short, spanking doesn't work on every kid. There's no one set of guidelines that applies to everyone. That said, the only option is to leave it up to the parents to decide. It all comes down to the right to choose...that's what liberal politics is about, right? The assertion that people are basically good? That they want to do the right thing? You have to trust them to make the right decision on how to discipline their kids.

[ElectroPrincess]

101. I'm one of those liberal pukes - social science degrees from

two of those fancy pants left-wing state universities. :P However, even if I was not blessed with this background, I would be hesitant to spank, and if so, only when all other alternatives fail. And it's no exaggeration that my little one is a very willful tyke at times, i.e. can be hell on wheels when upset like most kids.

NO BODY here is trying to be a "nanny." Our only intent when not twisted by the right wing radicals and "snobby elites" IS that spanking as THE default and overall primary solution to a child's behavioral problems does NOT work in the LONG term and may lead to serious Adult Behavioral Disorders later in life.

Please do not degrade our insightful input and spin the contents to mean that we will DEMAND that spanking be outlawed.

Gee, the right wing radicals seemingly rule the world, why don't they clean their own house before picking on the second class citizens, i.e., progressives and moderate democrats.

[sherilocks]

86. Another good reason Not to spank

Ever wonder why so many neocons get outed for their sexual perversities? They were probably the victims of harsh discipline as children. Spanking children, especially spankings that produce bruises, could have an effect on their sex lives as adults. Read John Money's book, Lovemaps.

I couldn't find a specific quote on spanking to paste here, but this will give you some insight into the author's thinking on paraphilia.


<snip>
John Harvey Kellogg (1852 - 1943), inventor of Kellogg's Corn Flakes was a little on the flakey side himself when it came to diet and health. Kellogg was a well regarded surgeon. Yet he ascribed to degeneracy theory and thought that loss of semen caused many diseases. (This was the theory espoused by Swiss doctor, Simon Tissot in 1758.) Thus, masturbation was considered very bad for the health. Per Money, Kellogg's cereals and nuts were a replacement for eating meat, in order "to suppress carnal desire induced by the eating of raw meat." (Page 165) Thus, Kellogg's Corn Flakes were an antimasturbation food!
Kellogg recommended the sewing up of boys' foreskins and the burning out of girls' clitorises to prevent masturbation and thus degeneration. He never consummated his marriage. He slept alone and saved his semen. Per Money, Kellogg was a klismaphiliac, meaning that sexual arousal is dependent upon being given an enema by a partner. Every morning he had his medical assistant give him an enema.
Obviously getting an enema every morning is not a crime. Yet, some paraphilias are crimes. They get pretty scary and some are self-destructive. Many people realizing that what turns them on is not particularly healthy for .....

<snip>

http://www.sexuality.org/l/pl/pl06.html

Violence in the form of spanking a child has no justifiable use in promoting discipline, unless of course you want raise a child who needs a good spanking in order to perform sexually.

[Q]

88. After reading many of these posts...all I can say is that it's no wonder..

...that America is the most violent society in the industrialised world.

[RuleofLaw]

93. Well put Q!

[ElectroPrincess]

97. I'm a mom of a 10 y.o. and parenting is "always" a tough gig ...

I never used corporal punishment other than forcibly putting my daughter in her room for "time out."

Oh gosh, does she have a world class temper, i.e., just like her mom. Yeah, you reap what you sow. <eg> However, it's a lack of patience, creativity and imagination to default to spanking as a first resort.

My "nerves" would have, in the short term, been better served by spanking her, but longterm, it's figuratively a loaded gun that comes back to your child as emotional detachment and an increased tendency for their future idealization of Authoritarian solutions to problem solving, i.e., just beat the sh*t (bomb um) out of THEM until they bend to OUR will.

The parent who physically abuses their child as a first resort is contributing to the degradation of society. That child LEARNS that the only way to subdue a person is through physical force.

Besides, I'm blessed to have made the right decision to NOT spank my child because she earned her Novice Black Belt a few months ago in Tae Kwon Do Karate. She's just 10 y.o. Although I am determined to guide and discipline her appropriately, I don't even consider using corporal punishment to achieve these goals. Well DUH. <snicker>

[goddess40]

98. spanking is abuse.

Sorry, but if you hit you abuse the difference is just the severity. People have a hard time admitting that their parents weren't perfect. With all the studies and experts saying that spanking is counter productive it just isn't right to continue the notion that it's ok.
Those of us that were spanked and turned out ok did it in spite of the spanking not because of it.
It does teach might makes right, no one would say that is a good message to teach anyone.

[Guitarman]

100. A good spanking...

never hurt anyone. And I have never seen a child that at one point or another did not deserve one. Especially the way children are turning out nowadays. Everything is given to them and they feel entitled to have the world handed to them on a silver platter. This PC psychobabble nauseates me.

[Swamp Rat]

103. Oxymoran

"A good spanking never hurt anyone" - Except the child. Isn't the ultimate purpose of spanking meant to induce PAIN?

"And I have never seen a child that at one point or another did not deserve one." - Would Jesus recommend spanking a child?

"Everything is given to them and they feel entitled to have the world handed to them on a silver platter." - OK Einstein, explain how you are ascribing this sense of entitlement to children... Btw, the word "entitlement" is a dead giveaway dude.

"This PC psychobabble nauseates me." - OK, back to the remedial class, Freeping 101!

[undergroundpanther]

108. Maybe someone oughta

Spank YOU Some person like a cop or a preacher some Authority figure.

And tell me if you are not humiliated,

I swear you should not have had kids if you think this way,if you don't like being spanked when you act like an ass,than don't expect kids to feel ANY different,because KIDS are people too If you swat an adult it is assualt,

So logically if you swat a little human being,that too is asault.Strike a kid that's assault. Assault is assault.Either you hit or you have some creativity,maturity and self control don't stoop to that level.Kids are not parental PROPERTY to be hit about like thier objects to be seen and not heard like theyre dirt . Kids are human beings too,just less mature and less aware of how the world works.. So ignorance and plain obliviousness and immaturity in a child does not deserve to get assaulted out of them because mommie is being controlling and bullying,because she is emotionally immature and having a tantrum of her own and decides to abuse her power.

[NCN007]

107. restraint

my dad spanked me maybe two, three times when I was young. Used sparingly, it was an incredibly effective tool at letting me know that my actions were unacceptable. But he always waited until he was no longer mad or even upset about the action. I remember him crying more than I did when it happened. Bottom line: Spanking is ok, but you must make sure that it does not become abuse by only issuing it with a level head

[undergroundpanther]

109. It's not level headed to hit people to "teach a lesson"

[NCN007]

111. why not?

[undergroundpanther]

113. OK what If

I hauled off clobbered you now? If it was possible? Ask yourself what would your reaction to this be? Would you be calling the cops,trying to hit me back? Would you feel violated or angry?

Look,Asking silly questions like why is it not OK to hit people to dominate them really speaks to a deficiency in your character, a serious lack of empathy, and a blindness about a serious wrong with humankind that fosters and makes worse everything bad in us.

Dominating other people who are weaker or confined or unable to say no,hitting them to make them obey out of fear is bullying and it is WRONG.I have NEVER met no person yet who likes to be bullied and have their consent disrespected , their human dignity,bodily integrity, and autonomy violated,

The only exception is people with Stockholm syndrome,or if they have begun to internalize the kind of hatred and sickness an abuser has done or said to them before as' the truth'.

So if you don't like receiving abuse,the smart thing to do is don't dish it out,because eventually someone you hit will not be tolerant of your abusiveness twords them. Might does not make right,even if people you bully are scared of you and it looks to you like you won..Remember you never win by domination.So if you try to win by suppressing others ,hitting them, manipulating and dehumanizing them it backfires.Hitting another person is weakness in the hitter.
Abuse is a failure of character, a failure to connect with your own human dignity,creativity and maturity.It is a failure to prove to others you can be trusted to handle yourself well enough to conduct yourself in a way that is positive in a community of equals.

If you think hitting others is OK,than maybe you need to put your ego aside,think about how it feels to be hit and get some empathy for yourself and other people,and be honest about how it feels.
If you can't at least be honest,
I have to wonder what in the hell is wrong with your empathy and emotions?