Stoned to death... why Europe is starting to lose its faith in Islam

[flying_blind]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1387077,00.html

Islamic fundamentalism is causing a 'clash of civilisations' between liberal democracies and Muslims

DAYS before she was due to be married, Ghofrane Haddaoui, 23, refused the advances of a teenage boy and paid with her life. Lured to waste ground near her home in Marseilles, the Tunisian-born Frenchwoman was stoned to death, her skull smashed by rocks hurled by at least two young men, according to police.

Although the circumstances of the murder are not clear, the horrific “lapidation” of the young Muslim stoked a French belief that the country can no longer tolerate the excesses of an alien culture in its midst.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. Well, no...

No civilized country can tolerate that kind of bullshit. Period.

What part of "That stuff REALLY don't play here" don't they get?

[rockydem]

2. right wing violence memes in action

where getting a healthy dose of them here in America too...

[Hosnon]

208. Yep, gotta love religious fanatics - man I want another Enlightment.

Enlightenment (Sp)

[Brundle_Fly]

3. this shit is everywhere

kids beating bums and homeless to death and videotaping it, stonings, people lighting others on fire..this world is on a downward spiral.

[flying_blind]

5. bumfight - I lughed my ass off at it, guiltily

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/10/03/1033538715422.html?oneclick=true

Revenge of the homeless: 'Bumfight' video lawsuit

October 3 2002

Two homeless American men who say they were paid to hurt themselves and beat each other for a video sold on the internet filed suit today against the filmmakers, who also face criminal charges.

Donald Brennan and Rufus Hannah say the makers of "Bumfights: A Cause for Concern" took advantage of their alcoholism to persuade them to ram their heads into steel doors and signs and get "Bumfights" tattoos in bold letters across their hands and foreheads.

"When you're drinking for 20 years as I have, when you don't have a beer in your hand you would do anything to get one," said Brennan, who bears a "Bumfight" tattoo on his forehead in bold red letters and others on his arms and belly.

"Who in their right minds is going to run their heads into a sign?"

The men are seeking unspecified punitive damages for assault and battery, intentional infliction of emotional distress, civil rights violations and other allegations.

[Cheswick2.0]

171. well at least you felt guilty for laughing

There really is nothing funny about that. Not at all.

[McKenzie]

4. I wonder if America is losing its faith in Christianity

because the Christian Taliban murder abortion clinic staff? That's no less an act of religous extremism wouldn't you agree?

The event described in the article is foul but it is intellectual arrogance in the extreme to assume that it is representative of all Moslem opinion. This is the sort of shallow interpretation placed upon complex events by the populist right wing media. Rather than discussing matters in a considered way they present their agenda in soundbites that their target audience finds easy to digest. What is the empirical basis for the story? Is there a comprehensive study that allows such an opinion to be formulated?

The Times presents a right wing view of the world and what is printed in it reflects a right wing agenda.

[flying_blind]

8. excellent post

And a powerful lesson on the power of words.

All of you folks who believe (and I choose that verb with precision) in 'terror' would do well to re-read that post a time or two...

[Ardee]

11. Thank you

for some common sense, apparently lacking in anyone who would lend credence to this foul piece of excremental journalism by posting it.......

[flying_blind]

25. I think you should rethink the post you bitch about

like it or not

spun the wrong way or not

it IS the news

[Ardee]

102. Horse shit,plain and simple

If you cannot differentiate between news and propaganda designed not to report but to alienate and denigrate then I suggest you confine yourself to the comic strips.

As you appear to have a learning disability, or ,more likely, an agenda, here's an example for you:

1. news......a young woman was murdered by two young men

2. propaganda..today, in typical Islamic fashion, two MUSLIMS, get it, MUSLIMS, as is their penchant, slaughtered a young woman. They had the full approval of the Islamic community in all of Europe and thus slaughtering them all in Iraq and elsewhere is OK by me.

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Just Me]

125. *giggle*

:smoke:

[Just Me]

129. Take a break,...and a breath,...

,...from your convictions.

Please.

[jdj]

187. why were the men not named? what happened to them?

were they even prosecuted??? who knows?? who cares??

[Ardee]

229. Not you

apparently

[someday]

254. yup

the article makes a huge bold statement about Islam with only a snippet of information about the crime
every religion has its sickos

[muriel_volestrangler]

33. So do you contend

that Ni Putes ni Soumises doesn't exist? Is that what you mean when you say we shouldn't lend it credence?

[Ardee]

103. You simply cannot be that dense

can you?

[Kimber Scott]

65. I find nothing in a teenage Muslim girl being stoned to death having

anything to do with the insanity perpertrated in this country by insane, overzealous people except for the fact they are insane and overzealous. What does writing this article have to do with forwarding a right-wing agenda? It's an article about the fruits of fundamentalism. In case you haven't noticed, fundamentalists and right-wingers have a lot in common. Why do you think the right wingers would like to portray this brand of fundamentalism in a "bad" way? This is an act of barbarity. Nobody needs to make anything up in order to portray it as one.

Get off the bandwagon and bemoan the act, not simply the article. Or, maybe you feel it's okay to stone women to death? Or, it's only okay in France because a foreign culture practices this kind of "discipline" within the house of France and it's never okay to say no to houseguests? I don't get you.

[Ardee]

105. Oh my god

Right wing = approval of the invasion of Iraq and the deaths of tens of thousands of Muslims by demonising said Muslims at every opportunity

The problem with your position, Kimber, is that you mistake the horrific reaction to extreme right wing propaganda that uses an horrific act as an excuse to further demonize a billion followers of Islam as approval of an horrific act against a young woman....Please note the difference.

[muriel_volestrangler]

160. But the article talks about Muslims marching against this

it's not condemning all Muslims - just the violent ones, and the fundamentalists. Why are you saying its lumping them all together?

[Ardee]

163. Please reread that hatefilled screed

slowly......

Almost every paragraph is filled with generalisations and distortions. It is nothing more or less than an apology for the destruction of Iraq and the murder of countless thousands of them. It also condones the Israeli slaughter of Palestinians as an added bonus because, after all,they are arabs and thus are unworthy of life.

Coincidentally I noted an editorial that dwells upon this very subject:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/04/12/04_fear.html

Xenophobes and Homophobes: The Fear of Terror and the Terror of Fear

++++++++++cut

"Please, Mr. Bush," they seemed to be pleading, "come back to slaughter one hundred thousand more Iraqis, and to cripple the lives of thousands more soldiers and their families; to make healthcare more costly, to oustource millions more jobs, and to privatize even more of the country; to further erode our civil liberties, to further inject God into government, to further encourage discrimination against gays. Please?"

I mean, really, why would millions of Americans elect such a terrifying tyrant? Because, my friends, of a little thing called fear.

America has always been a nation of stark ambiguities and ambivalences. Of course, all nations are. The difference is, the American government has consistently forcefed the American people a steady diet of lard-filled lies about how we are a "good" nation, a "free" nation, and so forth.

But true freedom does not entail ripping the land away from a group of native inhabitants, brutally enslaving people stolen from their own countries, and the systematic oppression of an entire gender. True freedom does not entail the repression of worker's rights and invasion of other, more impoverished lands for their resources. In other words, America has a dark history of suppression of freedom.

++++++snip+++++++

[muriel_volestrangler]

165. Wow, you got all that out of an article

that doesn't mention Iraq, Israel, or Palestine? And has only one reference to Arabs - in the form of the language Arabic?

About the only excuse not given for invading Iraq was Islamic fundamentalism. And the Israel-Palestine conflict is not primarily to do with extreme Islamism - or a culture of misogyny, which the piece opens with. Yet you have managed to drag both of those into this discussion.

[Ardee]

167. Are you obtuse for a purpose?

I made it perfectly clear (I thought) that the thrust of that article,and all of the hateful statements about Islam we see in droves, is to make the deaths of so many Muslims easier to swallow. Perhaps, with your agenda so close to your eyes you cannot see or think so very well....

The thread starter is one with a history of hatred of religion and those who choose to believe, perhaps you share that hatred and bias. Either way I am through with this thread and sickened by those who encourage bigotry and racial hatreds, and ,especially, by those who try to intellectualize this as OK.....

If you are unable or unwilling to see that article for what it is then I feel sorry for you. Either you share an agenda of hatred or you are far too naive, either way we tread very different political paths and further discourse between us would seem a waste of both our time.I fail to see how following or condoning a course that calls for bigotry is constructive in the task of making our world a better place, good luck with that.
bye.

[barb162]

174. I agree with you; certain people keep adding things to the article

that aren't there in the first place

[The Stranger]

285. Wake up. The article has context that is inescapable.

Educate yourself on what the media is doing. Free your mind.

[jdj]

191. You have that "America is the center of the Universe" syndrome

Shame on you and your ignorant american ass. No wonder Americans are hated all over the world.

"Everything in the news has something to do with America. Either that or it is in reaction to America, or something America did, or something America is going to do, or may be thinking about doing.

Nothing that happens in the world or is reported in the world as having happened has any significance outside of impact on America, or America's impact on it. Anyone who suggests that there is anything happening in the world exclusive of America or America's foreign policy goals is just flat crazy. It's all America, all the time."

[Ardee]

227. Are you talking to me?

If so then do me the kindness of getting an adult to read what I wrote to you and interpret it as well.

Your post is nothing more or less than an irrelevent and garbled bit of nonsense. Next time smoke that joint AFTER you participate here not before...it helps.

Better yet, take YOUR ignorant ass over to someone elses posts......fool!

[barb162]

104. The articles' event is just a way of pointing out the obvious.

The Netherlands, France and some other European countries are having a few serious "problems" shall we say. No one suggests anything about "it is representative of all Moslem opinion." I thought this was a fairly well-balanced article, not "right wing" by any stretch.

[Ardee]

126. I suggest you reread that article

carefully.

[barb162]

128. I suggest you read it VERY carefully because you are

doing some outrageous generalizing and the article was being very specific in its citations, naming officials, statements, etc.

[TankLV]

197. We suggest YOU take Ardee's advise.

He is very clear.

You are being obtuse.

Just insert "black" for "muslim" - maybe you'll get the idea.

It's amazing how when people aren't "muslim" or "black" that the "news" never mentions the the persons are "white" or "christian".

Get it now?!?!

[jdj]

199. WE suggest you and Ardee get your heads out of your behind.

I know muslim women aren't cute and cuddly like Panda Bears or something but they still deserve to be heard regardless of what America's foreign policy is at the moment.

[Ardee]

228. Tank, its a waste of time

These people are not interested in debate, nor opinion, nor truth. See they have it all figured out, are absolute owners of the moral high ground and are the real reason that this nation is in such dire trouble.

They defend the unspeakable, are as much tied to the old southern cracker mentality as they are to defending torture and murder and conquest. One cares not that a billion muslims are being villified but only that noone mentioned the murder of a woman, one laughs at two homeless persons being paid to fight each other while cowards who would run from a threat of violence stand and laugh and the third, thinks his sarcasm and insult makes up for his vaccuous lack of contnet.

These make me sick, quite frankly, and are, at heart, Bush supporters all, if not by ballot then by mentality.

[barb162]

247. You may as well insert "teenager" or "woman" for "Moslem"

and then assert that I am anti-teenager or anti- women. Fact is, and maybe here you will stop being obtuse, I have been working for women's rights most of my adult life. The rights of Moslem women are important to me and if Moslem men kill innocent Moslem women, that is PLAIN WRONG. And I will speak out against these men who commit violence against women.

Get it now?!?!

The last thing I need to do is take your or Ardee's advise.

[jdj]

198. yes, but if you are reactionary to a reactionary point of view

do you get a gold star by your name or something?? This is what I am reading in these posts...

Meanwhile the women victims of these widespread and well-documented crimes get caught in the crossfire of liberals trying to out-p.c. each other.

:puke:

Thanks for spelling it out. It's embarassing to me how blinded these folks are by their America-centrism, they rail about the very thing they are displaying.

[Ardee]

230. There is ,somewhere,

a system of education that has let you down badly.

[barb162]

249. can't agree with you more. The Time mag article, and that is

not a far right-wing publication in my view, starts out with a brutal murder of a woman by certain males who evidently "thought" (if they think at all)they had a right to murder a woman. Yah, LOL, call me a reactionary for speaking out against these slugs who murdered that innocent woman. Excellent point on American centrism (or egocentrism).

[Scairp]

172. I don't see the parallels

Violence against young women of Muslim faith in France from within their own community is epidemic. 60 Minutes did a piece on it last year and it was both eye-opening and horrifying. A girl raped by 80 men, stuff like that. A few high profile incidents at abortion clinics here in the last ten or fifteen years is not even in the same league. These girls are being targeted every single day. If they don't wear the hijab, they risk being attacked by a Muslim male because of it. It's the same shit Muslim women face in predominately Muslim countries everyday, except now in Europe. They have imported everything about their culture, which includes the victimization of women. What I'm wondering is, what are the French authorities doing about it?

[Ardee]

231. You are so very certain of this are you?

Do you have any familiarity with the history of Islam? Are you aware that women have played important roles within the Muslim communities for thousands of years? In Iraq (a place you might recall) women held roles as doctors, lawyers, politicians . The oldest synagogue and Catholic church in existence are both in Iraq, by the by.

Are you happy with the violence towards women right here in the USA, or is it another purpose you serve? This reporting serves the Bush administration by justifying all the murder and torture we are engaged in against Muslims and you, by failing to understand that you are being played, are serving Bush.....happy are you?

Violence against women is a serious problem, throughout the world, as is hunger and disease and prejudice. Here we see a perfect example of prejudice being used to justify our own heinous actions.

[barb162]

265. Are you suggesting this murder not be reported because it "serves

the Bush administration by justifying all the murder and torture we are engaged in against Muslims." I think violence against women should be reported widely in the media and that the trials of the suspects who committed the crime should also be widely reported.

Also, your statement about the oldest synagogue and Catholic church in existence being in Iraq is incorrect.

[barb162]

253. I suspect the authorities are somewhat helpless in some

instances. The women probably don't call the police, file charges anywhere near as much against the men as they should because of fear of what happens to them after the batterers, victimizers, etc., get out of jail. Maybe the French government should start some education classes with the men and women, explaining to the women their right not to have to put up with this sick bullshit and the men need an explanation about respect for women, women's RIGHTS, jail time for offenses, etc.

[jdj]

181. only if you believe the that muslim women don't have a right

to the same civil liberties that european women have a right to.

The group mentioned in the article (english name "Neither whores nor submissive") has been around awhile, and to be a muslim woman in a group like this is an act of bravery that western women, and even more so western men, can't even conceive of.

No matter how much liberal western men want to believe that this stuff is right wing propaganda, the fact is that these honor killings happen every day to muslim women all over the world.

It is horrifying to me the dismissive attitude western liberal men and even some women have to the suffering of muslim women, and inconceivable how one could turn a blind eye to their plight, especially while these women themselves risk their very lives to make the world aware of the repression they suffer. It is the ultimate sin of omission to ignore their sufferning in order to appear culturally p.c., and it is the height of anti-intellectualism to turn a deaf ear to their pleadings in order to be a pretend non-reactionary.

[jdj]

186. Nowhere in the article does it say the perps were jailed or prosecuted.

It doesn't even name them. Wonder why not...

As much as all of you p.c., reactionary, disappointingly dense luddites would like to deny it, muslim women are suffering daily under the weight of this religion's misogynist traditon.

We here can't even conceive of it. This new refusal to see the truth about the treatment of islamic women is so Rovian it stinks, but Rove plays the tune and you people step to it every single time.

It's like Yalie Bush's adoption of Jimmy Carters' "nukular", immediately y'all jump on the bandwagon and start calling him stupid, etc, which is just what Rove wanted you to do.

Concern for islamic women is nothing new, but Rove wants you not to care about it just now, as we have turned secular Iraq's liberated women into prisoners of impending Shari'a law, and yet you folks are still depressingly thick in your denial. "Those lying islamic bitches, why don't they just quit exaggerating", eh? Thanks to Karl Rove for that one. He has you figured out, but you are so enamored of your own intelligence that you can't see it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

225. Here's another English language report

A 17-year-old boy has confessed to the killing and has been placed under investigation for murder. A 16-year-old is being probed as an accomplice while another 17-year-old was placed under investigation for failing to report the crime.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L27666819.htm

Quite possibly, they're not allowed to be named in news reports if they're that young.

[InvisibleBallots]

250. jdj

sadly, your post is right on.

[Moloch]

233. The article does not represent all of moslem opinion

one way or the other. Remember that the French group was led by Moslem women.

The abortion clinic attacks by the talibornagains were savage and no civilized society should put up with that, however, the honor killings occur much more often in Islamic societies and they are, in many cases, tolerated. No civilized society should put up with either.

Are film makers here murdered because they criticize Christianity?

[Jawja]

246. McKenzie,

I was just thinking, after I read the lead post, that this trend is indicative of extremism in ALL religions.

It is error to just paint it on the Muslims. The violence does not represent the Muslim faith; it is used by thugs to justify their actions.

The killing of abortion doctors and bombing of the clinics is one example. The bombing of a lesbian nightclub in Atlanta is another.

[patdem]

6. Let me get this straight..a women who fought against being raped

was killed with rocks and her head crushed and this is somehow a Muslim religious tradition?? WTF?? Happens in the USA all the time! A women who resists an attacker is murdered...usually with a gun in America?? WTF?? I do not get this at all..I agree with the movement about violence against women..and there needs to be attention brought to ALL VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN...this is not about Muslims..this is about a teenager who did not get what he wanted and murdered his wanna be victim???

Did I miss something??? Please tell me if I did??

[flying_blind]

9. So what is your opinion of 'hate crimes' legislation? n/t

[patdem]

19. This was not a hate crime..it was a sex crime..she resisted..he killed her

it happens all the time...I like that sex crimes are treated differently then most crimes..and sex crime convicts are treated differently and believed to be sex criminals forever..which they have proven to be over time!

[NJ_Lib]

168. I don't think she was killed by the same guys...

...who tried to rape her... I think the two who killed her where from the community, carrying out "justice" for the woman "bringing on the attack"...

Happens all the time in Muslim communities...

[jdj]

202. It was a hate crime.

Hatred of female sexuality, the display of which can get the the death penalty, many times carried out by your own family.

In America we have the same problem, but the bar is a lot lower...I'll never forget the handling of the Green River case, and reading an article where a cop reported over the radio that "some prostitute's bones" had been found down by the river. Some Prostitutes's Bones...one doesn't have to wonder why the Green River murders went unsolved for so long...no one really cared, as these were not people they were "prostitutes".

By the way, how does one differentiate a "sex crime" from a "hate crime"? Just curious.

[baba]

267. Sex crimes ARE hate crimes. n/t

[DoNotRefill]

255. Hate crimes legislation...

isn't nearly as effective as teaching women how to use a handgun and allowing them to carry one for self-defense.

Gun control is the idea that somehow a woman with her skull crushed after she resisted her attacker is somehow morally superior to that woman being alive and explaining to the police how her would-be killer came to have two holes in his chest.

[barb162]

40. I think to answer your question one would have to see stats on

crimes against women in Islamic sociey versus non-Islamic societies. And I don't think you'd get accurate statistics /answers.

[sam sarrha]

64. there was a story in Pakistan where 2 boys beat up

another then worried they would be told on.. so they said he had an affair with an older rich woman.. the Imam sentenced his young Sister to be raped by 4 rich men...:wtf: which they did, then they forced her to walk home naked in front of the village and told her to commit suicide...I have the link but cant find it right now.. i will book mark and put it in later..I have a whole disk of this stuff.


these stories just go on and on.. and get sicker and sicker..

[barb162]

81. I read that; it was a few weeks ago in the papers and yeah

sicker and sicker is a perfect description.

[hel]

176. That is just bullshit.

There is absolutely nothing in Islamic Law about raping a woman to avenge another one. I may tend to believe a lot of horrible 'stories' about people living under Sharia, but there is just no way this is true.

[Igel]

179. But it is true.

The village jirga voted; various Islamic folks decried the opinion, but only after it was a big deal. It was in the NW Territories in Pakistan. Created a bit of a stir in the Pakistani media.

[hel]

180. Do you have any link to the story?

Only if I see this in a credible news source story would I believe it.

I live in a Muslim culture, this is completely alien to me.

[Igel]

200. Not necessarily a Muslim thing.

http://www.dawn.com/2002/08/04/top9.htm

The NW Territories in Pakistan have a lot of local, um, is bid'a the correct term?

[hel]

213. "Bid'a" is strictly forbidden in traditional Islam actually.

Islam is a never-supposed-to-change kind of religion. (Most of its problems rise from this fact as well)

[PsychoDad]

234. Unfortunatly...

There have been changes over the centuries, Islam started as a revolutionary Idea intended to liberate and empower... Some have turned it into something it was never ment to be. That was Bid'a..Getting Islam back to it's roots is now the hard part.

But many brothers and sisters around the world are doing just that, and I would dare venture more of them than fundimentalists who interpet the scripture in light of their own agenda.

[gottaB]

185. It sounds like the case of Mukhtaran Bibi

Mukhtaran was sentenced to be raped by a tribal council. Her attackers were later convicted in a special court.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukhtaran_Bibi

One could easily make the case that the rape of Mukhtaran Bibi was extrajudicial. That was how the authorities dealt with it. However, the pepetrators seemed to understand the crime in Islamic terms (zina), and it seems that Pakistani women frequently have to deal with that sort of injustice. It should be an issue for Muslims.

http://www.muslimwakeup.com/archives/001170.php

[hel]

189. I read it and it has nothing to do with Islam.

The act was decided and done by tribal council, and probably a not so strictly religous one at that.

It was the Imam who persuaded the family to file charges, if wikipedia entry is correct. There is no 'rape-for-rape' in Islam. Zina (adultery) is punished by stoning the woman in Sharia Law (not that it is a more desirable or just solution), and I'm not sure if men are even prosecuted for that.

My point is, Islamic "Law" and "Justice" has many monstrous practices, it really does not need any others attributed to it!

[gottaB]

196. Point taken

I agree that the tribal council's punishment was not according to Shari'a.

If you are familiar with Pakistan and its legal system, I am interested in why this case needed to be handled by a special court. How does this relate to Musharraf's reform agenda?


On edit: typo

[hel]

206. I'm not too familiar with Pakistan's legal system

but since there is a similarity with what Turkey had a few years back, let me comment on that. The case was handled by an 'anti-terror court', which would punish it to the extreme (i.e. death penalty). Since the perpetrators were, what you would call a 'gang', and they conspired to commit the crimes (note the court added the death threats to the case), they are automatically 'upgraded' to 'terrorist' status, and terror/treason cases are always punished really hard here in Turkey as well. They are practically military courts.

This actually does relate to the terrorist groups who are always trying to assasinate Musharraf more than they do relate to any reforms, I think. He wants to see them dead as soon as possible and without too long trials.

[jdj]

212. hmmm, does this usally happen in non-muslim countries?

Do tell.

Are there tribal councils that sit down and dole out rape as sanctioned punishment?

I mean, spontaneous gang rape is horrifying enough, but sanctioned??

wow, you'd almost think it was...cultural...or something.

[hel]

215. They just might be happening

in tribes in Africa. They don't make the news.

How much do you know about 'tribal councils' anyway? Do you think there is Starbucks and televisions anywhere in the world? Only Muslims are living in a uncivilized society?

[jdj]

218. well, my country is being run by one right now.

and we are on the downslope too right now when it comes to women's rights.

The more I read about ancient African religions the more I see their influence on islam.

I've come the the conclusion that clitoridectomy is African in origin, though it took some convicing, and I may well be wrong.

And I have a little different definition of "uncivilized". To me that means racked with violence and hatred of whatever kind. Some of the "tribes" I have seen covered on nature programs on my teevee seem very civilized compared to American society.

[hel]

221. Mostly the 'sanitized' tribes are

covered on TV in a 'look aren't they cute' sort of way. Read more about current and ancient tribes and cultures, it is really fascinating study; how they developed according to the needs of the society, and how they still relate to our modern world.

[jdj]

188. Damn , why fact-check when we have you.

[hel]

192. And what is that supposed to mean?

I was asking the original poster to verify his/her story; do you have a problem with that or is it just me? I think I have the right to generalize or challenge generalizations about Muslim societies and Islam when something does not seem to fit to what I know from my own experiences -since I am living in a Muslim country- and 'I heard it somewhere' kind of stories sound especially suspicious to me.

[jdj]

195. sounding suspicious

is different from "there is no way this could be true."

Well meaning people all over this country are in the same denial about our elections system, they say "there is no way this could be true" that this election was rigged, not because they don't care, but because to have to wrap their mind around the horror of living in such a country would place an undue burden on their psyche. Forget the lives that will be lost because of their denial, it's self-interest and self-preservation that fuels denial. The truth is that absolutely anything *can* be true at any given moment, and anyone who doesn't think so needs to just hang around a few more years and observe.

[hel]

201. Not even remotely related.

The poster said it was done as some kind of Islamic practice, as in Sharia Law etc, and I said there is no way that this happened. What I meant is, of course, it did not happen because an imam or kadi thought it fit the Sharia and was just punishment. This kind of thing very well might have happened anywhere in the not-really-civilized world. I do not believe cruelty and mob mindset is unique to Pakistan or Muslims.

[jdj]

204. I get most of my info on this reading the works of muslim

women, or women who have lived and worked in muslim countries.. What are they, just a bunch of lying bitches or something?

I am so FUCKING tired of people saying "it's not sharia" "it's not in the Koran" "no mullah ordered this to happen" or whatthefuckever after the fact excuse.

Lame. Lame. Lame.

The shit happened, regardless.

It's the same level in my book as holocause deniers or southern Americans who believe that African Americans "made up" the horrors of slavery. The shit happens, it is happening every single day, because these men live in a culture where they can get away with such things, just like all the lynchings and other horrors that happened in the south during slavery and afterwards. The men (and women) that committed these crimes committed them for one reason, because they could, and these state-sanctioned crimes are being committed all over the muslim world by perpetrators, BECAUSE THEY CAN. And probably the only reason this made the news is because it happened in France.

[hel]

211. Well, I am a woman living in a muslim country.

So you might as well get your info from me. :)

It is very annoying that you try to picture me as excusing these crimes. I am living in a country where 15 year old girls are murdered by their own fathers, just because they were seen with a boy holding hands. I am fighting day to day to educate people within a women's rights organization. I cannot accept any kind of excuse for such crimes, not even the god himself came down and ordered it. Let us get this straight first.

But I am also very afraid to see even you people here, more or less the enlightened people of America, generalizing Islam and Muslims that way. This is the first step of racism, my friend. It is not really far from here to hating all Muslims because 'they are all barbarians'. So, I try to correct these kind of assumptions, for my sake as a person living in a Muslim country which could be the next target of your military, or the one after that.

[jdj]

216. I thought islam was a religion, not a race.

You can't really call me a racist for criticising an endemic religious culture.

But go ahead if you must, I have been called far worse.

And anyone could be the next target of our military, not because Americans are or are not racist, but because facists now have control of our elections system, and will not surrender it without years of grass roots efforts on our parts. And grassroots activism is all we have left to pin our hopes on, which is thoroughly depressing.

I am quite the equal opportunity offender, actually. I despise all forms of orthodoxy and fundamentalism, as the impact they have on cultures and people is almost always negative and destructive, as all this orthodoxy is is politicized spirituality, when humans take something that should remain private inside ones' own heart and head and externalize it with a mob mentality for the sole purpose of controlling other human beings.

But it would quite the sin of omission for me, a spoiled, privileged western woman, to turn a deaf ear to the plight of my middle eastern and eastern sisters because I am too timid that my hearing the truth of their lives might somehow benefit the right. It's quite the gordian knot, but it's better to try and solve it than to ignore it out of pride and ignorance.

[hel]

220. We have something in common, after all.

I believe fundamentalism in all forms, be it religion, politics or capitalism, is the biggest threat to the mankind of our times. It is 'back with a vengeance', and the phenomenon is not unique to Islam as well. Although you tried hard to take my words as means of excusing Islam, my point is, do not generalize Muslims, it will become a habit that will grow into another kind of fundamentalism.

I personally do not believe in any god, and I do not believe any religion is 'good' for the people. But I am also very disturbed how 2 (3?) billion people are painted with the same brush.

I might be expressing my thoughts not clearly, if so please do forgive me. English is a second language for me.

[DoNotRefill]

256. Not all muslims are barbarians...

just the ones who believe in things like honor killings and sodomizing young boys as punishment and stoning women to death for having sex.

[barb162]

244. thank you for this great post, well-spoken. When I see stories

on discrimination, violence, etc., against women, ANY women, including Moslem women, it gets me going. What is amazing to me is that when one speaks against it, one can get accused of being a Moslem -hater. Defense of or sympathy for Moslem women somehow equals being an anti-Moslem bigot to certain individuals

[PsychoDad]

98. I think the logic goes...

A Muslim was involved.

Therefore it must have something to do with the religion :eyes: Rediculous. There is nothing to suggest any sort of religious angle to the story.

[MADem]

122. Interesting thought, that....

...I guess we could just as easily extrapolate with regard to the penchant for Christian violence, just by checking out Death Row. Bibles, Bibles, everywhere!!! They're all saved before they get the needle, it seems...

The religious angle is a bridge too far, I agree. But it facilitates an agenda, I guess.

[Ardee]

164. We need to demonize them

As we are slaughtering them by the thousands. our national conscience is strained by these deaths and thus we see all the apologists crawling out from under rocks claiming that they are not really human or deserving of our comapssion.

[jdj]

194. by your arguments there are no good americans

only bad ones.

There are no bad muslims, only good ones.

Believing that, why even try, why not just throw oneself off a cliff.

Your assertions are salt in the wounds of women suffering under islamic fundimentalism. I thought that one good quality of liberals is that we are supposed to be able to understand the complexity of issues.

We really generally don't buy into the black and white garbage. Are you lost?

[TankLV]

203. There's that damn "we" again!

It's about 2 thugs who attacked a woman. It's about thugs. And an innocent Woman. Period.

It's not representative of a religion, as the story trys to impply.

If this was so - again - why doesn't the news media report that "white" or "christian" thugs do these things - when you damn well know that "white" & "christian" perps far outnumber any other group? It's only when the whore media have a "black" or "muslim" or some other group that is not the favored majority description, that the whore media semm to favor reporting on other adjectives to describe the perps.

"We" certainly "don't buy into the black and white garbage" - which you seem to be doing pretty nicely.

[jdj]

209. I don't know what news you expose yourself to

but I see reports of rape and murder of women of all colors all the time. Wonderful world we live in isn't it, where this is a true sign of our diversity and lack of prejudice.

I know it must be safer for you to live in your little shell where nothing remotely outside of your culture can enter in if it doens't make sense in the paradigms of that culture; this is why we are in Iraq.

The attackers in the article are not named, there is no notation that they were arrested, there is no notation that they will be punished...don't you find this odd.

It is tragically sad to me that liberal Americans so quickly turn their back on muslim women to serve their own p.c. agenda, not being able to hold more than two possibilities in their heads at one time..a) this is true b) this is propaganda c) this is true and propaganda d) this is true and will be construed as American foreign policy propaganda regardless of the fact that the life of this woman and the muslim misogynist culture that killed her and will probably not punish her attackers (and may even praise them) have little or nothing to do with American foreign policy.

But if you're up to your asshole in America-is-everything, I can see how you would miss this.

[tsuki]

158. Pretty much what I read...in the beginning.

Then they made the jump to Muslims.

[jdj]

182. yes it absolutely is about islam, when one can justify this crime

and they do it all the time.

Find a reason to blame the female, and the perp. gets off scott-free.

"Honor Killings" for which there is not a western counterpart, are usually performed BY THE WOMANS FAMILY OR RELATIVES, to "save the honor" of the family, and go forward many times regardless of the woman's guilt or innocence. All it takes is a rumor of her impropriety to stain the "family honor".

You missed alot. By the way, this IS muslim fundamentalist tradition. I'm sure your fog of denial prevents you from seeing that however. Ask yourself, why did they use the terminology "stoning" and use that method to begin with?????

Why not just strangle her, shoot her, etc???

Because "Stoning" has ancient religious connotations...remember what the almost did to Mary? You need to ask more of the right questions when you read, and less of the wrong, p.c., ones.

[PsychoDad]

279. In the story this thread is based on....

I don't remember anyone quoted as trying to Justify this crime.

You are stating that because the woman was Muslim that this crime is somehow related to Islam.

Sorta like saying that everytime a Christian woman is killed in america that it just proves that Christians are cold blooded murderers, justified by their beliefs.

Total disconnect from the article and total hogwash.

[Javaman]

7. Whether it's Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc...

It's that sense of entitlement that has to end.

They run around yelling, "religious persecution". I say, tough shit, there are laws that have to be obeyed. There is also, a certain level of civility that exists and basic common sense that says, one, you don't take the law in to your own hands, and two, regardless of what your religion claims to tell you, you don't kill people because they don't agree with you.

Until that odd send of entitlement is dealt with, this kind of bizarre behavior will continue.

[flying_blind]

10. Rational Thinking and Religion are antithetical n/t

[Ardee]

12. well they may very well be ...to you

You certainly demonstrate a certain lack of rational thought when it comes to hateful articles condemning a billion or so muslims for the actions of ...two.

Just as you apparently do when you condemn the billions world wide who do choose to believe in religious doctrines. There are quite a few intelligent people who believe in a god you might understand and even a few intelligent people who understand that their own lack of belief shouldn't signal an attack on all the billions who do believe...a pity you are not one of them.......

[flying_blind]

14. you certainly took a general statement personally

the Point I seemed to fail to make

is that

Religious practice

at its fundament

counters rational thought

meaning, as a BIG for instance, Natural thought

Religious fundies are all about the supernatural

and because of that

ANYTHING goes

here on this irrelevant blue marble

that's a fact

for all of 'em

and while the more positive aspects of one's spirituality may be enriching, the hard cold Truth

is that religion has marched Against progress

every step of the way

since it was contemporaneous the the various original canons

I hope this is transparent enough to afford you the chance to kewl it

geez




...






one cannot rationally pray - they are mutually exclusive

if you disagree

I'd thoroughly enjoy another well written rejoinder

[Ardee]

108. so you know them all personally heh?

You seem to be an expert about religious fundamentalists. have you studied them? Do you have a degree in the subject? Had you commented with such "authority" on the size of a black man's penis, or the length of time it takes a Filipino to achieve orgasm or any number of such racist mythos I'm certain that there would be a large number of negative posts in response.

What you do is no less wrong because it is a popular misconception due to events both foreign and domestic, and your irrational dislike for those who hold religious views is so terribly unsophisticated as to be sophomoric.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

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[Javaman]

130. Chew

[Name removed]

143. Deleted message

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[barb162]

127. Talk about generalizations.

Some of your posts keep blabbing about condemning a billion Moslems. The Times article did NO such thing. I thought it was an short but insightful article on the problems several European governments are having with a specific segment of their population. The article also shows that it is referencing the right wing of Islam.

By the way, do you have some problem with women's rights? Don't you have a problem with an Islamic preacher preaching anti-semitism?

The article is very specific in naming countries, government officials and specific events, like certain Moslem clerics preaching anti-semitism. What the heck is not specific for you? You are the one who is making outlandish generalizations. You need to reread the article very carefully instead of dissing it as an "attack on all the billions.... " Talk about generalizations.

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

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[TankLV]

205. Yes - generalizations and ASSUMPTIONS - which YOU are quite eagerly

willing to do.

Nowhere did the poster ever in any imaginable way infer what YOU try to impose on him/her.

YOU refuse to see the obvious bias in the article.

YOU are the one making generalizations and assumptions.

What is sad is that YOU don't see it.

[Boosterman]

55. True

In any sort of equal society there should be no sense of entitlement.

[Blue_Tires]

280. i agree fully

i'm all for preserving religious 'freedom' but somewhere along the line the laws and cultures of the nation must take precedent...the heinous murder of the filmmaker in Holland is a sign of things out of control, and people in Europe will start countering this in their own way (which may not be pretty)

[CoronaMasFina]

13. Read the Koran

I think Europeans are just now realizing the problems in their midst. I've read the Koran, and as much as I hate to say it, it was very difficult to get through. Anyone who is not a Muslim who reads it can never view Islam the same way. Those of us who value tolerance will be especially sickened, and I mean that literally you might throw up.

The Koran strictly commands punishment, often death, for many of the things liberal democracies strive to uphold. In the Netherlands not too long ago an imam called on those in his mosque to throw homosexuals off the tops of tall buildings...and even specified to toss them head-first. Also, any Muslim who leaves the religion is to be punished by death, men can beat their wives if they even *suspect* they might be cheating. The Koran commands too many times to count (almost every other page it seems) to convert or kill anyone who doesn't pledge allegiance to Allah. An on and on.

The biggest obstacle is that the "radicals" aren't the ones who hijacked Islam, they are the ones who are taking the Koran at its word.

I imagine I might get flamed, but please read the Koran before making statements about it. You could probably spend an hour flipping through it in Barnes & Noble or Borders and get the picture because what you read wouldn't be cherry-picked by anyone.

[flying_blind]

Literalism

You write:

The biggest obstacle is that the "radicals" aren't the ones who hijacked Islam, they are the ones who are taking the Koran at its word.

___________

The same could be said of us in our political strifes...

http://www.evilbible.com/

Literalism = murder

all faiths of the Abrahamic root

[TheWraith]

"Literalism = murder"

I'm suddenly reminded by a quote, as a matter of fact, out of the Bible--something about the letter of the law killing, but the spirit giving life. The parts that they choose to ignore...

[Az_lefty]

15. You won't get flamed from me....

our Old Testament is pretty violent too, the difference is we have a New Testament and Islam doesn't. This makes it very easy for extremists to hi-jack their faith and turn it into terrorism. Very much like our own Fundies are trying to do with Christianity. Some day, I hope, moderate people of both faiths can get together and throw the wackos into the sea.

[CoronaMasFina]

24. Sort of agree

I don't like zealotry of any kind, but I really don't think you can compare Islam to Christianity. There are occasional violent nuts who act independently in the name of Christianity, like bombing abortion clinics. There is not a massive global network of Christians suicide bombing people, beheading people, or flying planes into buildings...all believing that God is willing it.

On the other hand, we (the world) are dealing with a BIG problem that all stems from Islamic beliefs via the Koran.

I don't know the answers on how to deal with it, but I do know that the violence affects us, Europe, the Middle East, Asia, Africa, and I've probably left a few out.

[DrWeird]

34. A bunch of Christians just killed 100,000 innocent people.

The last big attack by muslims was three years ago and only killed 3000 innocent people. If you want to judge a religion based on how many innocent people their followers killed, Islam has a long way to go before they catch up with Christianity.

[brentspeak]

41. You have heard of the Sudan genocide?

[DrWeird]

43. Indeed I have.

The Janjaweed is killing muslims and christians alike. It has as much to do about race and tribalism as religion.

[TankLV]

207. Have you heard of the Russian genocide of Ukrainians?

Have you heard of the German genocide of the Jewish and non-"aryan" populations?

[jdj]

183. hmm, I wonder about that.

oh, but that's only if you consider women "people".

[Name removed]

273. Deleted message

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[UpsideDownFlag]

276. were they christians, all of them? really?

or is that hyperbole?

[mitchtv]

70. If you count even one third of the gay bashings around the world

as being 'faith based', your number of Xian crimes increases dramatically

[jdj]

184. muslims don't much like queers either.

just sayin'

[Name removed]

268. Deleted message

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[Kathy in Cambridge]

274. Islam is as diverse as Christianity. You paint the religion

with a broad stroke.

"My friend said if you listen to what they hate it is basically about everything that the left supports."

Radical Islamicists hate the imperialism of the West, NOT what the left stands for.

"We should all know more about this religion."

No, you should read some UNBIASED sources on Islam.

"I find it interesting that the only religion in the world that you her all the terrorist problems about is from this religion."

That is patently false. What about the Christian fundamentalists that bomb abortion clinics?

"If we get mad at the right fundies should we not be concern about other religions that we see daily doing these horrible things?"

Who is this WE you speak of? Again, addressing Islam as a single bloc is like saying Seventh Day Adventists and Unitarians have the same beliefs.

Enjoy your stay...

[Nevernose]

16. So how do you explain the Christian Bible?

I'm not flaming you here, but I would like to know if, in your opinion, the copious amounts of violence and calls for violence in the Bible is the cause for violence among Christians?

Personally I think that, in both religions, people act violently first, then user religion as a shield afterwards.

[PsychoDad]

235. Excelent observation...

Bingo!

"Personally I think that, in both religions, people act violently first, then user religion as a shield afterwards."

Or any other excuse they think will fly.

And it's not just Christians or Muslims, but everyone who isn't able to take responsibility for their actions themselves.

[Name removed]

271. Deleted message

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[DrWeird]

17. Ever read the Bible?

It's got the same death penalty for stupid things bullshit.

[Boosterman]

57. theres a bible 1.1 update

Just fyi

[Forkboy]

18. I felt the exact same way when I read the Bible

huh :shrug:

[Malikshah]

23. Please provide the Sura and Aya where stoning is given as the punishment

for adultery.

As well, please provided other Suras and Ayas where this violence is so horrid as to make someone become "especially sickened."

I'll await the response.

If not--

Take the islamaphobic bigotry out of here.

[flying_blind]

26. Here

"And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage." Deuteronomy 13:10.

Though some folks have seen fit to bash me for posting this article in the first place...

indeed

it is PRECISELY

that narrowness

that leaves us peering over this precipice

[Malikshah]

28. Thanks, but I asked for the Sura and Aya--in other words, from the

Qur'an-

You quoted Deuteronomy... :)

[flying_blind]

35. puposefully :)

[NJ_Lib]

169. It's all in the interpretations...

Sharia law has been adopted in various forms by many countries, ranging from a strict interpretation in Saudi Arabia and northern states of Nigeria, to a relatively liberal interpretation in much of Malaysia.

Chapter 24 of Islam's holy book, the Qur'an, explicitly instructs believers to whip those found guilty of adultery. A leading Muslim scholar, Maulana Muhammad Ali noted that "stoning to death was never contemplated by Islam as a punishment for adultery." Roman Catholic Archbishop of Lagos, Dr. Anthony Olubunmi Okogie, said that the "official text of the Qur'an only sanctions a punishment of so many lashes for such an offence not stoning to death... punishment of stoning was introduced later by Omar, the second Calif for reasons best known to him." Many Muslim scholars and judges agree that the Qur'an does not refer to executions by stoning. "...the Islamic legal scholar Tarik Abdul-Rahman states they are part of the Hadith (collections of sayings and acts of the Prophet), and go back to the Pentateuch (first five books of Hebrew Scripture)." Execution by stoning is thus in harmony with the 613 laws which make up the Mosaic code in the Bible.

Massoud Shadjareh, of the London-based Islamic Human Rights Commission, opposes stoning sentences. He urges other Muslim leaders to speak out against them. Otherwise, he fears that what he calls an inhumane brand of Islamic law will take root in Nigeria. Shadjareh said:
"Shariah has been translated to be harsh, extreme treatment — it isn't." He argues that amputations and stonings are supposed to be used only as a last resort, and only within those Islamic societies that have eliminated poverty and corruption. Neither condition has yet been achieved, either in Nigeria or in other countries where stoning is practiced.
_________________________________________________________________

I thought this article summed it up pretty well... It really all depends on who is doing the interpreting... Just like in our culture...

[PsychoDad]

89. That's the Bible.

Some here would like to know the chapter and verse in the QURAN where you found these.

Not the Bible.

Of course you may have the two confused.

[PsychoDad]

92. That's the Bible, not the Quran

Some here would like to know the chapter and verse in the QURAN where you found these.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

152. Let he who is without sin

Cast the first stone. As someone said above, there's an update to the bible. You should check it out.

[CoronaMasFina]

29. You'll await the response?

My post was suggesting that people read the Koran for themselves, and form their own opinions. I have read it, and I have formed my opinion. Do you not think that is fair?

I find commands to kill unbelievers/infidels "violence that is so horrid as to make someone become especially sickened." Let people decide for themselves.

If there is nothing to hide or mask, there should be no problem at all for Muslims to encourage non-Muslims to read the Koran, instead of relying on agenda-driven parts of it.

[Malikshah]

30. Your posts reflect an inaccuracy

That is not acceptable.

As a non-Muslim who studies and teaches about Islam, I find it reprehensible that the sort of inaccuracies shown in the posts are viewed as somehow "fair."

I will not begin a flame war regarding this, but will simple act accordingly.

[CoronaMasFina]

39. What is not fair?

What is not fair about suggesting that people read the Koran and make their own call?

How can I be any more fair?! I am entitled to my opinion. I don't want a flame war either, by the way. Given that, if you teach about Islam, you cannot honestly say the Koran does not repeatedly call for the deaths of unbelievers. This, of course, does not mean that you AGREE with that sentiment, only that it IS in fact there...and often.

[DrWeird]

44. Bigotry, by its very nature, isn't fair.

You criticize Islam yet you ignore the same things from the Bible.

[Name removed]

175. Deleted message

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[Malikshah]

50. You refer to the Qur'an as something

That will make people ill. For those who haven't read it, they will have your opinion as their guide.

You couch this in a discussion of the horrid stoning of a woman-- something that is NOT in the Qur'an.

The argument provided is specious. Your posts thus far exhibit 1) an ignorance of Islam and 2) a clear anti-Islamic fervor.
I conclude that your anti-Islamic fervor is not based on fact (see point 1) and thus must be from some stereotyping or irrational anti-Islamic feeling.

I am not going to argue with someone who is going to refer to certain things in the Qur'an ("only that it IS in fact there...") to suit their purposes.

As the saying goes...Even the Devil can quote scripture...

I've alerted regarding the statements. This kind of anti-Islamic bigotry is not helpful to any discourse.

By the way-- I still haven't seen the verse where stoning is allowed.

[CoronaMasFina]

54. Let me try this again

I'm not "quoting scripture." I am suggesting that people read the Koran. I don't understand why you are against this, since you say you teach Islam. Wouldn't that only prove that I am wrong and an "anti-Islamic bigot" as you have labeled me?

When you say that you've "alerted" does that mean that you reported me for expressing my views? If I was a bigot, I wouldn't have taken the time to read the Koran.

[Malikshah]

56. I've alerted regarding this thread and some of the posts

You have not provided the verse as requested and made completely unsubtsantiated claims concerning Islam.

You referred to reading the Qur'an as an act that could possibly make someone throw up. Sorry, but the label fits. (Coming from someone who does not label without reason)

I would respectfully suggest that you reread your posts that I responded to. You may need to edit for clarity's sake, but as they stand now-- they come across as coming from one ignorant of a major world religion. The views are not based on fact, but rather unfounded claims. Sorry, that's not a valid argument.

[CoronaMasFina]

63. Lovely

I have made NO unsubstantiated claims regarding Islam or the Koran. Also, is there a rule here that I must provide you with verses you request or I get zapped out of the discussion? Then, you suggest I edit my posts to accommodate your perspective. That's not right.

Please answer this: Why is suggesting people read the Koran for themselves so bothersome to you?

[Malikshah]

68. You are avoiding the issue

And changing the subject. It is clear that you are completely oblivious to the effects of your statement.

I will accomodate you.
Here is your clips from your original post with my commentary.

"I think Europeans are just now realizing the problems in their midst."

Trouble in their midst--in what way? Is Islam an foreign element that needs to be excised? Is this a recent phenomenon?

"I've read the Koran, and as much as I hate to say it, it was very difficult to get through. Anyone who is not a Muslim who reads it can never view Islam the same way."

So Muslims will have a different view than non-Muslims? And non-Muslims will somehow or another have a "new view" of Islam if they read the Qur'an?

"Those of us who value tolerance will be especially sickened, and I mean that literally you might throw up."

So Islam does not have any tolerance at all? So the Qur'an states that anyone different must be slaughtered wholesale? Reading the Qur'an will then show us this, the horror of which will make us physically ill?

The Koran strictly commands punishment, often death, for many of the things liberal democracies strive to uphold.

So we are comparing a scripture that came to humans in the 7th century to a political ideology that began to develop around a millennium later? The comparison of apples and oranges is one thing. The wide-ranging generalizations are quite another.

"In the Netherlands not too long ago an imam called on those in his mosque to throw homosexuals off the tops of tall buildings...and even specified to toss them head-first. Also, any Muslim who leaves the religion is to be punished by death, men can beat their wives if they even *suspect* they might be cheating. The Koran commands too many times to count (almost every other page it seems) to convert or kill anyone who doesn't pledge allegiance to Allah. An on and on."

This is just too much to deal with-- need sources, need context, too many generalizations.

"The biggest obstacle is that the "radicals" aren't the ones who hijacked Islam, they are the ones who are taking the Koran at its word."

This shows a complete lack of understanding of both the Qur'an (Usama b. Ladin, for example, is destined for hell if one reads the Qur'an literally--the bombing of buildings and killing of innocents is not allowed expressly.) and Islam and the radical movements within Islam.

"I imagine I might get flamed, but please read the Koran before making statements about it. You could probably spend an hour flipping through it in Barnes & Noble or Borders and get the picture because what you read wouldn't be cherry-picked by anyone."

This is just unclear-- "because what you read wouldn't be cherry-picked by anone."


The label sticks. Anti-Islamic bigotry fed by ignorance of the belief system and its core scripture.

[CoronaMasFina]

80. Nice try

I don't want to change or edit anything I wrote. I don't lack understanding of Islam nor the Koran, but you just don't like that I am mentioning the "unmentionable" aspects of it.

It's all there for people to see. All they have to do is pick up the Koran.

[Forkboy]

Speaking of nice tries

[Malikshah]

101. Uh, sorry, wrong again.

Your ignorance of Islam and your propagating a skewed view of it is what I object to.

I'm more than willing to discuss the problems with Islamic civilization, as it attempts to manifest the scripture of the Qur'an and the example of its prophet--and has in numerous instances had problems/made mistakes etc.

The human manifestation of any scripture deemed sacred is fraught with mistake/peril.

Examples within Islam: The issue of veiling of women and the mistreatment of them by various strands within Islam.

It is clear that my point by point response was completely ignored.

It is a shame that such anti-Islamic bigotry still exists and is allowed to defame one religious belief system while at the same time reflect poorly on others.

[DrWeird]

31. So do you feel the same way about Christians and Jews?

Because their holy books say the same thing. In fact, where do you think Muslims go the idea from?

[ElectroPrincess]

32. You're passing quite a few unsubstantiated judgment calls

You can't assume to know why moderate Muslims are not speaking up. Again, read the Old Testament in an objective, yes I think the best term is Objective vice an "Us" (Non-Muslims) vs. "Them" (Muslims) manner, i.e., I read their (Muslims' Koran) book. Doesn't fly with me. Just my take, nothing personal.

[CoronaMasFina]

45. My goodness

Okay, first of all I did not say anything about "why moderate Muslims are not speaking up."

Secondly, I am not a Christian.

Thirdly, why would I not call Muslims "them" given that I am not a Muslim? Should I have said "we" Muslims, even though I am not a Muslim? That's just as silly as me saying "we" Frenchmen even though I am American.

[ElectroPrincess]

153. I wrote (non-Muslim) and the speaking out of moderates was

a very clear undercurrent of your theme. You, IMO are trying to rationalize Islam, in general, as a violent religion merely by reading the Koran. In Christianity, we call those folks Fundamentalists who BELIEVE the written word verbatim. The entire essence of you "argument" (look how violent the Koran is!?!) is inane and inapplicable to the ENTIRE Muslim religion.

Fourth, you need to talk with moderate Muslims about THEIR following and interpretation of the Koran. I believe that you will find, like us liberal and moderate Christians, we only take items like The Ten Commandments word-for-word.

[Ardee]

232. you read the Qu'ran

and pigs fly........

[VirginiaDem]

38. As an athiest

I've got no vested interest in standing up for organized religions. I'm mostly with you on this. I think most of the whacked out stuff in the Bible isn't taken as seriously as the whacked out stuff in the Quran because somewhere between the Reformation and the Enlightenment we decided not to take it all literally, especially the truly whacked out stuff. That was a great idea.

Fundies still oppose this as do some hardcore orthodox Jews--that's part of what we're fighting about. There's no reason the Islamic world in general can't do the same thing--just agree to ignore the parts of the Quran that were clearly a function of its place in space and time but this hasn't happened yet in earnest.

That's the way it seems to me--I'd be interested in info other folks might have on this particular issue. I ain't no expert. :)

[barb162]

97. Me neither, but you said it well and you said it the way I think

about it.

[gottaB]

117. The punishment for adultury spelled out in the Koran (24:2) is 100 lashes

But according to some interpretations of Islamic law, the verses on stoning should have been included. Here is an argument against that position: http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_151_200/opposing_rajm.htm

It is my naive understanding that while many Muslims oppose the punishment of stoning, fundamentalist Islamic clerics preach this sort of thing, and indeed it is sometimes carried out by those who profess to follow Islamic law.

[PsychoDad]

148. Under Sharia, to be accused of Adultry...

One has to provide 3 witnesses who saw the same act themselves, in other words, before you can accuse anyone you and 2 others have to witness the same sex act that would define adultry.

How often does that happen?

Then both parties are equally punished.

If you make an accusation, and cannot provide the witneses, you yourself would be accused of bearing false witness, and would recive 30 lashes. (Imagine a world where Bush and company could recive 30 lashes each time they lied to the public ;) )

The so-called Imans who state or claim that verses should be added or deleted from the Quran are commiting a crime themselves in Islam, It's called Bidah, innovation, trying to change the religion to suit them or their agenda. It's also blasphemy.

Sharia has been perverted by many who use Islam as a cloak for their own evil, often twisting it to their own aims.... Much like modern, coperate "christianity".

[ElectroPrincess]

27. How about reading the Christian Bible's Old Testament word for word?

Lot's of atrocities and violence before Jesus came with the New Testament.

No, I don't hate to say it, do ya remember The Crusades and The Inquisition?

[kodi]

42. Islam has yet to have its Reformation. When it does, it will be okay.

but before that, we are dealing with a system of social behavior and religious dogma best left in the Middle Ages.

[barb162]

46. good point

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VirginiaDem]

83. and if they're going to have a Reformation

they should be awfully careful how they go about it--Europe's came with the 30-years War attached to it that left tens of millions dead. Here's hoping we can just skip that part altogether this time around.

[DrWeird]

47. LOL.

Yes, they haven't learned yet that when they attack other countries it makes everything alright if you call it a "liberation."

Fucking Islamophobes.

[brentspeak]

49. Funny you should use the term "Islamophobe"

The article mentions how members of the Euro left-wing have grown weary with the knee-jerk charges of "Islamophobia" that are constantly used to try to shout-down even legitimate criticism of the Muslim community.

We could go back-and-forth forever about "well, the Christians did the same thing"; what does it accomplish? Zilch. This female-stoning is apparently a large enough problem that protests addressing it were organized by Muslim women themselves.

[Forkboy]

51. anti-anti-Islamophobes?

the mind boggles :silly:

[mitchtv]

75. gay bashing is a good enough reason for me to turn a deaf ear

on Muslim complaints of Bias. The are a danger to a small country like the Netherlands, and seek to restrict the rights of gays legally, and god knows how else. That deaf ear is turned likewise to Holier than thou Xians and Jews, and Hindus. They are all my enemy.

[kodi]

59. hey Doc brush up on your Islamic history before throwing insults around

The Muslim cultures were more advanced than the West for hundreds of years, but the Muslims had their time and their chance to de-link their morality from their religion, and they cut out from their culture the thread of reasonable inquiry over 8 centuries ago, and sewed into it a new pattern, in the way of al-Ghazali’s radical distrust of human reason, and discarded ibn Rushd’s method of rationalism, which presaged the Age of Enlightenment in the West 5 centuries later.

In the West, unlike the Muslim world, the West has always had the philosophical dichotomy of the “City of God” versus the “City of man” the former derived from the ancient Hebrew and Christian cultures, and the latter from the ancient Greeks. The Muslim world has had no such dichotomy, and as such their philosophy has stagnated.

Yet with all that this civilization, one that spanned the Eurasian continent for over a millennium, from the Atlantic to the Pacific, Islam declined intellectually, philosophically and scientifically, and it is not the fault of the West or Christianity.

The evolution of a fierce orthodoxy in Islam after the time of Ibn Rushd throttled the brightest intellectual and scientific culture the world ever saw up to that time. The manner of distrusting human reason and siding with mysticism in al-Ghazali's "the Destruction of the Philosophy" served as a standard for later Islamic theology and placed a cudgel in the hand of those who swayed the ulema against rationalism.

The stress brought about by this roll back of rationalism in Islam was not overnight, there were still magnificent achievements by Muslims across a wide range of arts, sciences, architecture, and medicine, but the damage was done. The stifling of rationalism played as major a part in the decline of intellectual thought in the Islamic world as did the Mongol invasions in the 13th century to their physical empires.

I stand by my statement that until Islam undergoes a radical re-appraisal akin to that of which Christianity underwent during the Enlightenment in the 16th-18th centuries, its own followers will suffer, as will their neighbors.

To understand this better from a Muslim perspective, I would recommend the works of Sayyid Ahmed Khan, Sayyid Amir Ali, and most accessibly, Muhammad Iqbal's "Six Lectures on the Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam."

and doc, I ain't no "fucking Islamophobe," and your post was an ignorant tirade unworthy of you.

[smirkymonkey]

67. Thank you for your thoughtful and insighful post.

I do not think it is "Islamaphobia" to raise some very valid issues about the role of Islamic law in a modern, secular society.

Unfortunately, there are some people on this board who would rather cry racism than deal honestly with the issues presented. I wouldn't take it personally, it's the Dr's standard accusation against anyone who dares question the Muslim religion

[VirginiaDem]

71. good post

If we try to stifle open discussion about this then the right-wingers have the floor. The article provides an excellent look at a tolerant, open-minded European society that's decided to ask the tough questions without automatically castigating themselves for "Islamophobia".

[barb162]

69. very nice analysis; there seems to be a certain intolerance

in some Islamic societies, more so than in non-Islamic societies, although this is a giant generalization and varying from country to country. I read an interesting statistic (that I will have to paraphrase as I no longer recall where I saw it)that in Egypt and a few other Islamic nations, the number of foreign books allowed in in a ten year period or so totalled far less that the number of books allowed in an average European country in one year. The mullahs have to pass judgement on the books first.

I think until they get rid of sharia law, as some of their own writers have opined, they won't advance. (And if the fundies advance here, we will undergo a decline in intellectual thought also and there are already signs galore of that happening, prime example being the re-election of the shrub)

[ElectroPrincess]

155. We can intellectualize this to death ...

I see Middle Eastern first generation fellow Christian friends in MY OWN community be shunned and marginalized. My ten year old daughter was told by a classmate, "You should NOT be her friend. She looks Afghan. Her parents were born there."

Instead of jaw boning this to death, we should be resolute NOT to pick apart the Muslim religion because even folks with Italian ancestry (they LOOK "Middle Eastern" to some ignorant rascists) are the recipients of HATE crimes.

The train has left the station and all Middle Eastern Peoples who are NON-violent and work within the system DESERVE our unwaivering support.

[Charles19]

281. Enlightenment for Christianity

Saying Islam needs its' age of enlightenment with rational scientific thought winning out over the science book burning Christian's is a little off.

For example a lot of medical research material was saved out of Egypt from the conquering Muslims because we have never been afraid of the "mystical" science books. Meanwhile the Christians were burning it as fast as they could get their hands on it before the age of enlightenment.

I think you are advocating Islam to divorce itself from God like the Christians have, aint going to happen. And I don't think the Christians really have divorced themselves from God either but I think you might.

Now in terms of being anti-science I don't ever think Christianity, Judaism or Islam are anti-science but certainly over zealous, anti-education _individuals_ have been. Some of these individuals having considerable power.

[Malikshah]

58. Islam has been reforming and morphing since its inception in

the 7th century. As malleable as any other major world belief system, Islam has adapted to the times, cultures, and peoples it has encountered over the centuries.

The fact that there are strands within Islam that are extreme in one form or another is a natural phenomenon. It is unfortunate that the sentiment professed in the above post expresses a Huntingtonian idea of a monolithic rigid belief system "left in the Middle Ages."

[barb162]

74. Agree and of course I don't think anyone disputes that Islam

is different with each people, each country, within each country.

But there is still an intolerance within the religion or segments of it that I don't understand. For example, why are non-Islamic people not allowed to visit the Mosque holding the Kaaba (at least that is my understanding). Does the Vatican allow non-Christians? Yes.

[VirginiaDem]

77. Why are Jews not even allowed in the country?

The Saudis do seem a bit on the intolerant side but maybe that's just my ignorant Islamophia coming through again.

[barb162]

87. I didn't know that but then again women can't drive there

either. I remember one US military woman suing, during Desert Storm when she was stationed there, because the military wanted her to wear a head scarf and not drive and she sued on discrimination. Um, when the Saudis and other Islamic cultures allow women to have 4 husbands and divorce them in the same way as men can divorce women, then Islam can start, perhaps, to come into modern world. Women are not getitng a fair shake there.

[PsychoDad]

95. Israel is also picky

About who they allow into the country.

Even to the point of excluding Americans.

[barb162]

99. can you explain? I thought American tourists are welcome

[Violet_Crumble]

142. I can explain...

Generally American tourists are welcome. But if yr an American tourist who's involved with peace activists or non-violent means of protest, you'll be deported so quick yr feet won't hit the ground. In the case of an elderly American Holocaust survivor, she was subjected to a humiliating body search because she was a peace activist...

Violet...

[PsychoDad]

149. What Violet said.

And I can personally testify to the reality of what she states. I have a friend, an American ex-marine, vetran of Gulf war I, who was denied entry, held for 24 hours before the US consolate was informed and grilled about his "contacts" and family because he had a Quran in his luggage.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

154. No sane nation invites people into to it that want to help the other side

Just as there are concerns that this article unfairly blasts Muslims (though I don't believe it does), your post unfairly blasts Israel for protecting itself from so-called "peace activists."

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

140. They are allowed in the country...

..so maybe you were right about the last part of yr post :)

Violet...

[TR Fan]

151. No drunks or Jews

You're not being Islamophobic. When the Saudis recently attempted their hand at tourism (up until this point there was no such thing as a tourist visa to Saudi), the Kingdom's official website specified that no drunks or Jews need apply. This was quickly replaced with more suitable wording after some unfortunate publicity. However, in practice, the policy remains the same.

Link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3493448.stm

[Malikshah]

107. The post I was referring to-- shows that some do hold that Islam

is "stuck in the Middle Ages."

As to your question-- Muslims have held this place as sacred. Non-Muslims are not to enter. It's just a larger area than other places that other religions hold sacred--allowing only a few.

The idea stems from the concept of Haram-- a thing that is taboo/or something to which entrance/approach is limited to a few. The etymology of the word is complex, as are the interpretations over the centuries.

As with all religious belief systems--the sacred and the profane are tricky issues. The only way I think we can get through this thing we call life is to understand that each belief system has its own idiosyncracies that, in some cases, need to be respected as just that---idiosyncratic. (I say in some cases as I'm not an expert on world belief systems etc. and wouldn't want to say we need to respect every thing from all--heck, there might be a belief system that encourages cannibalism--there, I'd draw the line ;))

In the end, we also need to understand that there is a major difference between the "message" each belief system holds as it's core message and the human manifestation/interpretation of that message--The three major monotheistic belief systems have much to answer for in terms of their human manifestations/interpretations...(just ask the Canaanites, Druids, Pagan Arabs....)

[Violet_Crumble]

141. Intolerance...

There's intolerance in every religion. I'm not sure what there is that's hard to understand about that. And in every religion there's areas that are restricted to those of that religion, sometimes even excluding people of that religion based on gender. So I'm kind of curious about why yr so fascinated with Islam in this respect and not with religions like Judaism and Christianity. Personally, I think the three monotheistic religions have a lot more in common than some folk here who enjoy looking for the negatives in only one religion would like to believe...

Violet...

[VirginiaDem]

157. None of us are doing that...

Most posters here challenging Islam, or some Islamists or whatever you want to call it, have been quite clear that they're not just interested in one religion. I am an athiest. My personal belief is that religions are all social constructions. As social constructions, we shouldn't expect them all to be the same and therefore looking at the differences is a legitimate activity. I do in fact believe there is relativity involved--some religions are in better/worse shape than others vis-a-vis intolerance/violence at this point in time than others. Much of this stems from my belief system--I love Bertrand Russell's Why I am not a Christian but then again I love that a book has recently published by a former Muslim (to lazy to look up) titled Why I am Not a Muslim.

Christianity, Judaism and Islam all have a lot to answer for. Islam, at this moment in space and time, is doing a little worse job than the others in terms of pulling away from the fundies. If Falwell,Robertson et al had their complete way, the equation would be closer but they don't.

It's a perfectly legitimate opinion and, no, it doesn't make me a racist to say so.

[VirginiaDem]

76. Sure religions change all the time

That's the point but it's not some kind of natural process--religions change because people change them. Doesn't that fit nicely with the concept of wanting Islam to change more? Kick it up a notch so the radical clerics who have hijacked the religion have less of a base to play to and the moderates and open-minded have an easier time expressing their viewpoints?

[barb162]

88. InTurkey, the government pays the salaries of the mullahs to keep them

to keep them under control and "moderate."

[VirginiaDem]

93. Turkey's an interesting country

It's been trying for decades to be secular without jettisoning its religion. In some ways it's been a smashing success and in other ways it looks hopeless. If it weren't for the ever-ready military, we could have had a "one man-one vote-one time" election already. On the other hand, the most anti-fundie religion people I know are Turkish. They know what's at stake.

[barb162]

96. From what very, very little I know about it, I think Turkey

will succeed in its secularism, although I have read things about the fundies trying to take over in Turkey. I hope they stay secular; then they will keep progressing.

[kodi]

84. you do understand the reference was to mysticism in Islam didn't you?

and the lack of institutional rationalism.

But, I would argue that while Islam is in flux, it has historically, since the time of al-Ghazali's in the 12th century, has not accepted rationalism as a basis for its culture.

I am sore put to believe a scientific renaissance from Islam if each new scientific fact discovered is merely defined as mystical revelation of Allah, and any disputes about the features of such discoveries considered within the realm discourse for definitive truth by a council of mullahs.

Any such efforts of theology into a field requiring rationalism like science smacks of Lysenkoism........and yet, its right down the road from me in Atlanta with attempts by Christians to have creationism taught in the schools.

[Malikshah]

109. I'm confused-- the post I responded to was referring to the need of a

Reformation-- which I didn't take as referring to Islamic mysticism or the need for revivification (a la al-Ghazali's Ihya fi ulum al-din)

Sorry for the confusion.

[HannibalBarca]

162. Exactly, well said the first post I actually fully agree with here.

[PsychoDad]

86. II guess you missed...

Sura 2:255

"There is no compulsion in religion."

Allah also states very clearly in the Quran that he does not side with aggressors, and that innocents are to be spared at all costs in a time of war. And even in time of war, priests, rabbis and any who seek refuge in a church, mosque or synagoge are to be spared.

The Quran also teaches that forgiveness is greater than vengance or even justice.

The Quran also teaches tolerance and respect for "the people of the book", Christians and Jews, because they also recognize the God of Ibrahem.

Sura 109 teaches tolerance toward to those who reject faith.

Like many of both Christian and Muslim stripe, you have only found what you wanted to in the book. Welcome to the ranks of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and Ussama Bin Ladin.

[Malikshah]

121. Thanks PsychoDad--

You've provided documentation --

great stuff, that. Hope other read this.

[LynnTheDem]

147. No you have not read the Koran

Because if you had, you would know it's based on more tolerance than the Christian bible is.

You're on the wrong board, dear; you took a left when you meant to go RIGHT.

[Astarho]

170. I've read the Koran

But I didn't find anything "especially sickening" at least nothing worse than the Bible, or the Avesta or any other religious scripture.

[Darranar]

173. Read the Bible. First Samuel 15:2-29 for example. n/t

[NNN0LHI]

20. Why can't they be like the government we installed in Afghanistan?

The U.S. appointed Afghan government has promised to use smaller rocks at their stonings.

Don

[DrWeird]

21. There's not enough socks and googly eyes.

nt

[Boosterman]

61. Thats somewhat true

but we modernized it...they have slingshots ;)

[barb162]

91. LOL but you have to look at another bright side; we are still

letting them grow all the poppies they want.

[Sara Beverley]

22. So what about the dragging of a man behind an auto and the

drowning of two little boys by their mother and other such hineous crimes in this country. All of these people were Christians, Hale Bop and others. Does that mean we can no longer tolerate the excesses of our own culture? If we are going to judge the Muslim culture by the acts of a few derranged people then our own culture must be judged by the acts of the derranged people among us.

[flying_blind]

36. Tell it. n/t

[NNN0LHI]

37. Don't forget Jim Jones and his crew. They were real superstars n/t

[distantearlywarning]

53. This reminds me of all the people who insist that vote fraud

didn't happen because they've read about one isolated incident in one precinct and can't believe that it might have happened in every other precinct as well.

Do some research on what many modern day Muslims in many countries believe about women, and all of the other hundreds of thousands of incidents like this one and then tell me that this is just a regular murder, an isolated incident, and certainly not something that we should use to judge an entire culture. I'll tell you right now that this kind of situation happens every single fucking day in Muslim countries! There is a time for tolerance of other belief systems, and that tolerance ends when people use those belief systems as an excuse to oppress, rape, and murder other groups of people.

And before you even ask, my answer to your last two questions would likely be YES. If the people who committed such acts did so in the name of a culture/religion, or were prompted to do them by their indoctrination into religious beliefs which are an integral part of OUR OWN culture, then yes, OUR culture should be judged by those acts, and should not be tolerated by others who see more clearly. In fact, that's why I voted against Bush on November 2, and why I fight against the Christian fundamentalists in my own country.

We all need to be honest with ourselves and others about the intent and actions of all religious (and other) fanatics out there, be they Muslim, Christian, Jewish or otherwise. Let's not turn a blind eye to evil in the name of promoting "tolerance" - some beliefs and actions are WRONG no matter what religion or culture they are attached to, and should be labeled accordingly.

This is something that I believe is hurting the Democratic party deeply. We are so used to defending the concept of subjective morality that now, when we are actually faced with situation(s) that are really truly bad by anyone's definition, we are totally paralyzed. Do we stand up and say someone else's beliefs are wrong? Or do we continue insisting that everything is ok unless it came from a rich white guy?

The time for political correctness is over. We will never win another election unless we learn how to draw the uncrossable moral boundary in the sand and apply it to everyone, black, white, Muslim, Christian, everybody. Stand up and say NO torture, NO oppression of women, NO homophobia, NO "pre-emptive" war, NO rape, murder, or forced marriages, NO female genital mutilation, no honor killings, no erosion of civil liberties, NO NO NO! Preservation of "culture" is not as important as these issues. Sorry, but it isn't.

[Boosterman]

62. Yeah its a logical disconnect that alienates a lot of voters

Excellent post.

[smirkymonkey]

72. That was probably one of the best posts I read on this topic.

I get tired of these slinging matches on whose Religious Fundamentalist Whackos are worse. They are missing the point. It is ALL wrong, regardless of the particular brand of fundamentalist hatred and murder.

The issue is that we are at a very dangerous point in this world where we have to determine exactly how much power we will allow these pockets of theocratic rule in the greater society. Political correctness gets us nowhere in the larger debate.

[mitchtv]

79. In Egypt today gays are being trapped

imprisoned and tortured by doctors and police. This in a "moderate" state.

[barb162]

48. I am glad you posted this article

[w4rma]

52. I hope Europe is losing its faith in fundamentalism, not Christianity or

Islam or Judaism. It's the right-wing, hate-filled, violent fundamentalist interpretation of these religions that is the problem.

Oh yeah, and btw, this article is biased. It's in one of those right-wing rags and the headline says "Islam", I guess because they think that folks will join their version of Christianity if they leave Islam. Or because they are trying to provoke religious wars.

[VirginiaDem]

66. It's the Times, for goodness sake

they're not The Nation, of course, but it's Britain's longest-lived most respected newspaper, at least traditionally. I'm sure they print their fair share of right-wing crap but this is a legitimate news story about an up and coming issue. Throughout Europe there is a relatively high percentage of Muslim citizens and residents and its not always smooth. If we don't allow ourselves to talk about it then the only people who will be are the right-wingers.

[rodeodance]

78. there is a good graphic of immagration pattterms that comes with this

story. (but I can not cut and paste it)--but go to link of original story.


Click on the image above to view a larger version

[NNN0LHI]

85. Here it is

http://images.thetimes.co.uk/TGD/picture/0,,164522,00.jpg

[VirginiaDem]

94. It's interesting that the percentages

aren't actually that high, except in France.

[Flagg]

159. There aren't 6 million muslims in France.

There are 6 million French citizens from north African origin.

At least half them non muslim practicing.



And the overwheming majority of practicing muslims practice a peaceful and enlightened Islam.

The few fundamentists responsible for those crimes will be tried, sentenced and send to prison for a few decades according to French Republican law.


Are the other 55 million French "christians" ?

[NNN0LHI]

161. Thank you for the clarification

Most people in the US think the majority of Arab Americans are Muslim even though the majority of Arab Americans are actually practicing Christians.

Don

[bleedingheart]

73. Personally I like immigration as long as people bring the good stuff

from their culture...like the food, the music and even the language...

However I dislike when any culture brings their hatred, bigotry and sexism with them...

[mitchtv]

82. too bad we can't ask Theo Van Gogh

.

[barb162]

106. same thing crossed my mind

[fortyfeetunder]

90. It's all in the interpretation

Koran, Bible, whatever. The issue here is these two books, among other sacred text were written in a time prior to modern day government and a different rational thought and philosophy.

You would think today people who make the strict interpretation case would have a clue and consider these books indicative of the time it was written in, and interpret what makes sense with a modern day government and culture.

Instead they try to strictly interpret the intent for a modern day government and culture. Ain't gonna work. It takes some exercise of that grey matter between the ears to figure out how to make it meaningful to modern times. Something the fundies just can't seem to get a grasp on.

[NNN0LHI]

100. I think you may be on to something n/t

[Malikshah]

110. Bingo!

Give the poster a seegar. (Unless that's against your religion) :)

[fortyfeetunder]

138. I take chocolate cigars only!!!! n/t

[Just Me]

115. Yep. They say such docs are NOT "living breathing instruments"

but rather matters set in stone (I guess).

I suppose that, no matter how much evidence, they refuse to accept one of the only constants in life: change.

[PsychoDad]

150. Agreed.

And well stated.

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Just Me]

118. Fascinating. I wonder what separates those of us who focus hostility

on those individuals who provoke it from those of us who spread our hostility to whole peoples? Honestly, hard as I have tried to understand the mindset, I just cannot grasp what possesses people to be indiscriminately hostile towards all Jews or Christians or Muslims or countries or (for that matter) political parties based upon the actions of a few.

The closest I have ever come to using that kind of broad-brush application is with respect to a very elite group called the neocons.

[flying_blind]

120. excellent first choice

http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2003/cr071003.htm

[barb162]

132. you, you dirty rotten neocon hater (LOL)

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Just Me]

133. I see. So, your point is an intentional inflamation of anti-semitism,...

,...is taking place. The article you posted is evidence of that intention.

Is that the message you are trying to convey?

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

136. maybe the idea is keeping track

of what types of "responses" countries are making--not just the government but the media treatment of controversial events.
The more pro Israel, the more brownie points from the
U S of A.
It's not enough to control American Media (faux, cnn) --they're reaching out to try and control European Media.

Not going to work.

They can try and provide "incentive", but there's no way they'll actually bribe and lever their way into the majority of foreign media outlets.

[Just Me]

144. Tracking responses has become a sort of embarassment, eh.

And, "they" would be,...our infamous, inaccurately labeled, neocons (total imperialists,...though no one would suspect by their speech/propaganda/bullshit).

Wouldn't it be lovely if the 4th wing did something akin to ingenuity, integrity, ETHICAL,...and do like real truth-seekers do: go somewhere else for the facts (since these propaganda production artists refuse to produce)?

But,...no,...the comfort weakens all backbone.

[barb162]

134. I suspect this is his usual shameless pandering, don't you?

There is nothing that I am reading here that the government will do differently except perhaps have a person work for one day under this new enactment and that person will check the report that is already done anyway by the State Dept.

[Just Me]

137. In other words, an edict for propaganda purposes?

Yes. The Machiavellian Manipulators have polished their machinery.

How do we combat such psychological brutality against people?

Damn. I wish I could just go: "3 - 2 - 1,...wake-up."

[barb162]

139. I've been trying to wake up (from the nightmare) since 2000

but then I realized I think I really want to be asleep the next 4 years the "psychological brutality" works like a charm; he gets a lot of cheers and votes

[ElectroPrincess]

166. Perfect, now all * handlers have to do to SERVE the Global Community is ..

draft a complementary Global Anti-Palestinian Review Act of 2004. But no way. Why? Because like the American Indian and People of color in the USA, they have NO political power or wealth. Therefore *'s handlers don't care about their plight.

Take RELIGION (and often discount the race of the wealthy mouthpieces for the right wing) completely out of this equation.

It's the Powerful vs. the Weak. The power mongers always prevail with their twisted sense of justice.

Disgusting :(.

[Just Me]

263. A common religious edict: it is evil for the powerful to impose its will

upon the weak. Moreover, a common human ethic, outside religion, is that it is evil for the powerful to impose its will upon the weak.

The reason why such an ethic/moral developed is because of a common belief that humans were gifted with "choice" which all those behind them (animals, plants, rocks, diseases) do not possess.

What are we doing with that power of "choice"?

What CAN we do with that power of "choice"?

[LynnTheDem]

145. 2 boys commit murder. Gee, we sure don't have any of that in the USA!

And the 2 boys were Muslim.

Hmmm...Timothy McVeigh was an American white christian rightwingnut.

How many Americans were murdered today in America, by Americans?

[LiberteToujours]

146. First of all...

Non-muslim Europeans do not have and have never had any "faith" in Islam, they have tolerance. That word is used much too carelessly in my opinion.

[frustrated_lefty]

156. This is a sad story.

It reminds me of Texas, where we keep hearing about mothers killing their kids. The last one cut her child's arms off. Welcome to Jesus-land.

I find myself emotionally leaning closer and closer to Joseph Conrad's "The Heart of Darkness." Kill them all. Exterminate them. They are a pestilence on the face of the planet. I have children. How, how, how, do you slice your child's arms off? That's your child, an innocent before you. HOW do you do that?

These people are sick, a plague upon the nation.

[cleofus1]

177. I'm dumbfounded...

23 year old girl...head crushed...dreams spilled onto concrete...and some people in this world thinking they had a right to do it...no one on this board of course...but they are out there and doing it again and again. christian and moslem...no mattter what their reason these people must be stopped...and prevented from killing any more women...PERIOD!

[hel]

178. Europe had faith in Islam???

Well, that's news to me.

You Americans may think Europe is very 'enlightened', European societies as having tolerance and sympathy or empathy against different cultures, but that is simply not true. Europe has as much and as radical right-wingers as your country, and my country (Turkey) has. Fundamentalism is on the rise all around the world.

France chose to ignore the issue of (Muslim) immigrants until now, willing the issue to go away, but it will not. Fundamentalism on both sides makes it hard to live together, and that problem is, like I said, not unique to them.

[Zhade]

190. Looks like you crashed, you ignorant Nazi fuck.

[Bragi]

193. The enemy of my enemy may not be my friend

Some people in this discussion seem to be harbouring the view that because Bush is evil (he is) then his enemies (Muslims) must all be good people.

I personally believe that Muslim fundamentalists are indeed a scourge and a real threat to all tolerant and liberal democratic societies. They are also increasing in numbers in the West.

This doesn't make me side with Bush in any way. I think his particular war against Islamic terrorism is brain-dead, reckless, doomed, and the most self-defeating course of action possible at this time.

Personally, if I was in charge of Europe's immigration, I would want to require Muslims wanting to live there to openly declare their support for religious and social tolerance, and for secular democratic values.

If they have trouble making that declaration, then I would refuse them the right to immigrate to the West.

Given that there are now apparently so many intolerant Muslim radicals already in the West, and they are growing in influence, I'd have no problem making this attestation a retroactive requirement, or in deporting those who, for religious reasons, actually do "hate freedom."

Again, this doesn't make me pro-Bush, or anti-Muslim. I think it makes me a realist, doing what is needed to preserve my way of life, which is increasingly threatened both by radical Muslims and fundamentalist Christians.

As for fundamentalist Christians, frankly, they frighten me less because they ebb and flow in terms of social strength, most of their demands run afoul of most western constitutions, and common sense.

They traditionally aren't predominantly violent or terrorist either, so I think they can be defeated and pushed back (eventually) through conventional politics.

- B

[hel]

222. And what is 'religious tolerance' anyway?

How far are you willing to take that? Where should you draw the line? And what do you do when those you agreed to tolerate abuse the privilige? That is the dilemma Europe is facing right now. And immigration policies are clearly not the answer, what will you do millions already living there with citizenship rights?

I don't have any answers to these, I am living in a country that tried to stop it very stubbornly and forcefully at first (speaking arabic really wouldn't make you popular in the Turkish government, just to give you an example); then tried to soften its approach as time went by, and is -in my opinion- having serious problems with fundamentalists right now once again.

[barb162]

226. is the fundamentalism coming from within or is it external to Turkey

or both?

Is it correct that the clerics are paid by the Turkish government? Do you know people who have turned fundamentalist?

That bombing in Istanbul a few months ago...were the people who did it Turkish?

[hel]

237. Both

There are many fundamentalist and some of them, terrorist Islamic organizations in Turkey, all of them outlawed. There was "Islamic terror" here even before there was such a term in English.

Yes, all imams are state workers in Turkey, appointed by the Ministry of Religious Affairs. What they say in sermons or what they do in public is under strict control of the ministry.

The last year's bombings of two synagoges, the British embassy and HSBC bank headquarters were apparently committed by local groups tied to Al-Qaeda. Perpetrators were Turkish. Most of them were captured since, high-level operators are suspected to have fled to Iraq.

I personally do not know any fundamentalist people, though I see many people going more religious in this country. Whereas we rarely saw women with black all-body covers and veils on the streets 10 years ago, it is becoming a more and more common thing. Our own 'neocons' are in power right know, and they have a solid voting block. They would win the elections and crush the left-wing again, it elections were held today. It frightens me.

[barb162]

245. I don't blame you for being frightened. May I ask if you view the

body covers as a sign of piety? As a sign of discrimination with the women who wear them buying into some modesty mindset? Are men forcing the women to wear these covers? I always wonder why the women are wearing these covers for whatever purpose and the men aren't. I always want to ask the women who put these covers on; why aren't the men covering their faces, their arms, etc. Modesty, piety, etc. (whatever the reason), should apply to both sexes?

[hel]

257. So other men won't get excited sexually.

Women are also forbidden to touch, or even establish eye contact with other men. Since women are nothing but men's possessions, the idea that men have to do something women have to do is unconceivable.

Under Sharia, women cannot divorce their husbands. They need 4 other men testifying that the husband did something unexceptable, like committing adultery. Two women witnesses are equal to one man in courts. Women are not allowed get any inheritance from their parents if they have male siblings. Men are allowed to beat their wives to 'teach' them their place... And so on, these are only examples I can think of right now.

Koran really doesn't like women. I really cannot understand any intelligent woman wanting live under Sharia. There must be something psychologically wrong with them. Stockholm syndrome maybe.

[barb162]

262. Everything I have heard of Sharia makes me totally negative on it

and everything you are writing here just confirms it again. The Turkish government has no Sharia influenced law, correct? My understanding is that women are equal to men in Turkey.

I hope Turkey gets in the EU. I also certainly don't want to see Turkey fall victim to fundamentalism as once fundamentalists take control, all progress seems to stop.

I really thank you for this post.

Best wishes to you.

[hel]

277. No, Turkey is a secular democratic republic.

Thanks :toast:

[potone]

259. How nice to read messages posted from Turkey!

I follow events in your country as well as I can as someone who lives in America and does not speak Turkish. I have visited your beautiful and fascinating country several times and my closest friend is a Turkish studies professor.

I would like to know your view on the the effects of the EU accession talks on the future of Turkey. My sense has been that, despite the fact that the current government in Turkey is Islamist, that it actually has made great headway in reforming the laws relating to civil rights, including the cultural ones relating to the Kurds, the abolition of torture as an acceptable interrogation technique, abolition of the death penalty, etc. What I don't know is if the actual practices have changed that much.

I did admire your parliament for not giving in to Bush's request to launch our war on Iraq from Turkish territory. There was democracy in action!:toast:

[hel]

260. Hey, thanks!

EU reforms are good, but I'm not sure if they are being really implemented right now. They are, still, important steps, a start is always better than nothing.

My only fear regarding this EU process is if at some point in the near future, EU shuts the door after decades of talks; it will have a really negative effect on everything in Turkey; foreign policy, morale, human rights and most important of all: economics. Turkey is just getting out of a economic crisis, actually a series of crises over the years. If on 17th of this month, EU reaches a decision unfavorable, it might put us into chaos. But I'm a pessimist, don't take me all too seriously. :)

I did admire our AKP controlled parliament, too. That was unexpected even to us Turks, them having spine to stand up against the US. Even left-wing governments never dared to do something big like that before.

[vincent_vega_lives]

210. Denial is not just a river in Egypt

http://www.unfpa.org/swp/2000/english/ch03.html

In the Arab/Muslim Middle East, the situation is critical. According to the State Department's Country Reports on Human Rights Practices, violence against women in the region is widespread. Under Islamic law (Sha'aria), Muslim female heirs receive half the amount of a male heir's inheritance; Christian widows of Muslims have no inheritance rights. In a Sha'aria court, the testimony of one man equals that of two women. In Iran, Sudan and Saudi Arabia, women cannot travel abroad without the consent of their husbands or fathers. Women are expected to dress properly in public (e.g. covered from head to toe) in Iran, where otherwise they may be sentenced to flogging or imprisonment, and in Saudi Arabia, where the Mutawwa'in constantly harass women to enforce the dressing code.

Saudi women are not allowed to drive and cannot run a business by themselves. They have to enter buses by separate rear entrances and sit in separate sections from where men sit. Saudi girls are not permitted to participate in sport at school and colleges. Saudi women are not even admitted to a hospital for medical treatment without the consent of a male relative. While women have access to education at the university level, certain studies such as journalism, engineering and architecture are off-limits.

In Iran, where the penal code includes mandatory stoning of adulterous women and men, life for young women is so miserable that, according to a New York Times report, some street girls began to disguise as boys to avoid rape or falling victim to prostitution rings. ''I wouldn't have been able to survive in women's dress. I would have been finished by now,'' explained one such girl.

A 2000 study showed that 97 percent of married Egyptian women and 90 percent of Sudanese women have undergone genital mutilation. In Sudan, southern women are forced into slavery and regularly raped.

If one were to create an ''horror index'' to measure the abuse to which women and girls are subjected in the Arab and Muslim world, the ''honor-killing'' phenomenon would rank close to the top. In Jordan alone, about 25 percent of all killings committed there in 2001 were of the type.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/opinion/5334423.htm?1c

http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/dv-ending.htm

AN INTERNATIONAL HUMAN RIGHTS GROUP IS PREPARING A REPORT
DETAILING AN ALARMING RATE OF VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN
TAJIKISTAN. POLITICAL AND RELIGIOUS LEADERS SAY THE MOSTLY
MUSLIM NATION IS A DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY WITH EQUAL RIGHTS FOR
WOMEN. BUT AS PETER HEINLEIN FOUND DURING A VISIT TO TAJIKISTAN,
THE TREND APPEARS TO BE TOWARD LESS, RATHER THAN MORE EQUALITY.

http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/s/53F01A946DDB56CFC125653600433BC1

http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/print.asp?ArticleID=5016

Violence against women, whether it is verbal or physical, is increasing worldwide. The UAE is no exception. There are no official figures on the level of domestic violence in the UAE, but experts agree that the number of reported cases does not reflect the true picture. Head of Special Reports Duraid Al Baik talks to social experts, doctors and police officials about the problem and what needs to be done to stem the violence.

http://www.crescentlife.com/psychissues/domestic_violence.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/849029.stm

An association of women's groups in Spain is presenting a lawsuit against a Muslim leader whose book, Women in Islam, gives advice on wife-beating.

[ElectroPrincess]

217. Oh no! Not the Democratic Republic of Pakistan?!?

That's exactly how * called it when he was being interviewed in Ireland.

No, the enemy of my enemy is not always my friend. But be VERY careful to want to bring "freedom on the march" to the Middle East." European countries are encouraged to ensure that Muslims are tolerant just like our fundies stay in their box.

We have NO repeat NO none nada ... forget about it! = say in HOW the Middle East Countries are run. * believes the spread of empire will pacify the Middle East, I beg to differ.

Bottom line: The foreign occupiers need to get their a**es out of the Middle East. The Israeli's need to run a secular VICE Jewish state. I want no part of the Middle East as a place to live. Nothing personal but it's not my culture. Let's get our butts out of there and let the natives sort it out?

Fundies are dangerous because some of them will be given power and money to control the policies in the USA. Yikes. State sponsored discrimination.

On Edit: Excuse, the country cited is TAJIKISTAN?!? where the hell is that place?!? Revealing my ugly (but honest) American side.

[hel]

223. Tajikistan is a former Soviet Union member n/t

[vincent_vega_lives]

240. Not sure

What your post has anything to do with cultural violence against women?

The fact is it is a huge and growing problem amongst Arab and Mulsim countries.

Not sure that "let the natives sort it out" is the answer.

[Bragi]

242. ElectroPrincess wrote:

"Bottom line: The foreign occupiers need to get their a**es out of the Middle East. The Israeli's need to run a secular VICE Jewish state. I want no part of the Middle East as a place to live. Nothing personal but it's not my culture. Let's get our butts out of there and let the natives sort it out?"

I really find that view to be increasingly compelling, and something along those lines has been vaguely at the back of my thoughts literally right back to 9/11. Maybe the West does need to exit in toto, and basically wall off the Arab World (and some other parts of the Muslim world) for at least a while, to let the cultures involved in this contest make their choices, in whatever way they see fit.

Why not? Any of these countries that can eventualy show that they can live in peace, respectfully with people of other cultures could be readmitted to our part of the international community in due course (though perhaps it would be wiser to leave even these ones behind the wall to ensure their engagement in whatever huge thing has to happen to make the world safe from their terrorists.)

Anyway, I suspect there are many heritical thorns in this proposition I've not thought about, and I recognize how complex this proposition would be to implement. When I think about it, I get muddled and flummoxed by the details myself, though not to the extent that I could say it would be impossible to implement a policy of this sort, if the rest of us collectively agreed to do so.

So has this been discussed already in DU? If so, does anyone know when and where? I'd be keen to read the debate. Or maybe someone interested could post on the subject at the right place here. (I nominate EletroPrincess!). Or is there already a place at DU where the "global culture clash" between some parts and sects within the Muslim world and the rest of us is being seriously discussed?

- B

[someday]

251. GREAT IDEA

so how do we wall them off? deny immigration? deportation? :eyes:

sad as it is, i dont see how this atrocity directly affects the west, nor do i see why entire countries should be blocked off because of their terrorists...

you must not know any arabs or muslims, but when you meet one, ask him or her if its a good idea

[TankLV]

214. "My god's better than your god. My god's better than yours.

My god's better because he (eats Kennel Ration)..."

You get the picture.

[vincent_vega_lives]

241. Repression of women's rights have nothing to do with God

Individuals execute it and cultures either condone or condem. Some cultures use their religion to do either or both.

[imenja]

219. issue is violence against women

It seems to me the main issue at stake in the case is violence against women and murder. The protest could have been framed in that way, without provoking a sense of religious/ ethnic division. Christians, atheists, Jews, and members of every other religious groups beat and kill women, yet that violence isn't typically associated as intrinsic to their religious beliefs. Many Muslims around the world would abhor actions like that taken against this young French women.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

239. WELL SAID !!!!!

nicely put.
But the media's "presentation" has encouraged knuckle dragging in the "primates" who are so inclined to believe it.
There is a target audience and a specific objective.

Manipulation.
Some folks WANT race wars(religious wars) because they think we have more "firepower" and we can just NUKE them all to hell.

If people actually fall for these propaganda campaigns, this regime (USA) may actually one day decide to wipe out the whole region !:nuke:
with the full support of the "Murkin" people.

[hollowdweller]

224. If the countries affected by terrorisim banned immigration from any nation

whose citizens were responsible for terrorist acts against their country I think it would be interesting to see how that would affect it. The US and Western Europe have managed to control their population growth. On the other hand the mid east has not so we have tons of immigrants from there coming to these countries. If these people immigrate for money only, but do not share the values of civil society with the birth rates their families have most western countries will lose their national character.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

238. sounds like you're promoting racial "purity"

Is that what you're into...sounds like the issue against the Mexican immigration in California(the one Ahnul supports).
Show us please how immigrants "do not share the values" of "civil society"
Show us please-- a link or something.
Can you show us where it says that in some recent study?
or is it out of your KKK handbook.?

"Western countries will lose their national character with their birthrates their families have"
????????????
What the HELL is national CHARACTER??


The U.S and Western Europe have managed to control their population growth"
??????????
where the hell did you come up with this.

Did you get this off Rush Libaugh or Heil Hannity?

Your post is about the most racist post I've seen on a DU post in a long time.

Why don't you get your facts straight. This is how it is:
There's a hate campaign to get people raging against a "race" and a "religion".
And you are a SUCKER to fall for it.
Bet you really trully believe that it's us "white" people against those "uncivil" middle easterners.--probably heard it in Church from your "pastor".

it's sick !!
:puke:
....................... sick
.............................:puke:
...........................................sick
................................................ :puke:

..................................................................... sick
................................................................................:puke:

[hollowdweller]

243. Nope. I'm not saying doing it forever and I'm not saying a blanket ban

just as an experiment to see if it would force the governments of those countries to to more.. Actually more than racial purity I'm for population control.

You gotta admit it would have been a better idea than 2 wars and loss of our civil liberties.

Oh yea. I don't believe in churches and don't go to church.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

252. but churches promote ethnic "purity"

at least the fundamentalist Christian right.

and where are those links to back up the items you stated as fact?

--I'd be interested in seeing anything that supports your claims.

and as far as "population control", it's obviously targeted toward specific "groups" isn't it.
Funny, no matter what you or I think, in the next 100 years or so we may likely see all races merge with each other, regardless of "segregation".
Whites will definitely be the minority and some are terrified of this.
In reality it won't affect them at all.
What will affect them is if this country nukes large populations.
The other day, Ray Taliafero's show adressed the public statement by a guy in charge of U.S Nuclear development that if ever a nuke goes off in this country, regardless of who is responsible, the U.S. feels it has the right to Nuke the "entire region".-the discussion made for an interesting radio show.
Seems likely that the world will unite against anyone who does this including the United States.
Funny, the U.S comprises only 6% of the world's population yet somehow its leaders want to dominate the world and dictate its "policy"--like your population control idea--What gives us the right to impose on the rest of the world our "laws" or regulations?
The U.S.'s leaders have ignored international law and illegally invaded a soveriegn nation that posed no threat to anyone and 60 countries have signed a document providing U.S.immunity from prosecution for its war crimes.
And yet we are the ones who will dictate what is "right" foi the rest of the world???

[hollowdweller]

270. What gives us the right to impose on the rest of the world our "laws"

I'm not saying that we dictate what's right for the rest of the world.

I'm saying that if we allow large numbers of people into this country to satisfy big businesses need to scab people out and keep wages low in our country, and those people do not share our view of individual liberty then chances are we will end up no better than any other third world country. I could care less what other countries do.

If a large number of fundamentalist christians moved to europe and started bombing Amsterdams brothels and abortion providers I think that they would have every right to ban or severely limit immigration to their country from that region.

It is not our duty to dictate what is right for the world(ie Iraq and US imperialisim) and it is ALSO not our right to let our country become overcrowded and unstable to help big business keep wages low and to keep other countries who have exhausted their environment and resources thru overpopulation from having to deal with their population problems. Fact: Take 30 chickens and put them in a 6x6 cage and they will start killing each other.

[someday]

248. .4%

thats how much your "uncivil" middle easterners make up of the population

i dont think ull be losing your precious national character anytime soon

[JohnLocke]

236. Indeed (nt).

[fshrink]

258. This is biased

First, this is a Brit source, and we know the sibling rivalry between UK and France. Second, there is a massive integration to french society and culture of people of maghrebin descent. The same could be said of the originally turkish population in Germany. And I'm sure of the originally pakistani population in the UK. I could probably fill hundreds of posts with daily and lethal religious absurdities in the US. Who is, let me underline this, one of the most religious, and now fundamentalist as well, country in the world.

[barb162]

261. Try Saudi Arabia?

[hollowdweller]

272. Bush has got his nose so far up their asses nothing will ever happen to

them no matter what they are implicated in.

[barb162]

275. You put that so well, Yeah, the Bush Doctrine: if you have oil,

especially a lot of high quality oil and you can crank up those pumps, ______fill in the blank.

[CHICKEN CAPITOL USA]

264. GREAT observation

to the point and nicely put !

[BonjourUSA]

266. It is rarely only a question of religious behavior or belief.

Many French studies show that the youth with a North African origine practice a religion just a little bit more than other ones. (about 7 to 9% vs 4% ). BUT, for them, Islam is a tool for their power upon the girls and for some ones upon the femal members of their family.

One of the aims of the law about the ban of the religious signs in public schools, Universities and for the public servants was to recall the French republican rules and liberate these women and girls from the male yoke. For memory, the number of the French "muslim" girls who wanted this law was more important than ones of "other religions". And at thebeginning of the school year only 73 came with a veil and all of them doffed it after discussion with the teachers.

This kind of horror is very very rare. Often for punishment because a girl has" betrayed" the gang with a boy of an "enemy" gang. Two years ago, a girl has been burnt alive in a cellar just because she didn't want to make love with all the boys of a gang and she wished to live and dress like her schoolmates. The boys of this gang wasn't only "muslims"

[NNN0LHI]

269. Who is the new DUer called Name removed? Seems like a nice enough fellow

He seems to post a lot but doesn't seem to say too much.

Don

[FECvAkins]

278. KICK

[cosmosis]

282. the true nature of Islam?

I would recommend the interested to read *Why I am Not a Muslim* by Ibn Warraq. It goes a long way in helping to decide whether the religion of the teenagers was important to the story. He is a secular humanist, hostile to all organized religion.

[Bridget Burke]

283. Thanks for the recommendation.

More junk added to a flamebait thread--whose originator has already been Tombstoned.

[plasticsundance]

284. It is absurd

to state the Arab and Muslim world is stuck in the Middle Ages. Most all of the advances in the sciences, before the Enlightenment, were due to the rise of the Abbasid Golden Age. It was during this time that many advances were made in architecture, astronomy, mathematics, medical sciences. The Islamic world did more than translate into Arabic the works of great minds from Ancient Greece and India, but significant improvements and even new ones within those studies.

Europe was then able to take these Arabic texts and use them to advance their own academic work. Europe began to come in contact with these Arabic texts between the 11 to 12th century.

China, which was the world power during the 14th -15th century, did not even consider trading with Europe because it was considered so backward and barbaric.

In the Modern world, many Arabs and Muslims are in the best Academic schools in the world.

Today, the problem the world is having with radical Islamists has to do with imperialistic meddling by the Western powers, mainly the US. When Iran and Iraq were seeking autonomy and wanting to nationalize their oil during the 50's, the US through the CIA, instigated and supported the Islamist fundamentalists in an effort to rid those countries communists, socialists, but more importantly, those leaders seeking autonomy.

Of course, then there's the US backing of Osama bin Laden to fight the communists in Afghanistan, and we all know what that particular Frankenstein turned out to be as far as being a progressive impetus to the region.

Then there are the little dictators the US props up all around the world. But, you know, what's great about these dictators, is the fact that they don't appear to be prejudicial towards anyone. They're equal opportunity persecutors and torturers. :silly:

Then there's the good ole Idiot-King *, and he merely cuts off any funding to programs informing women in the third world about birth control, which insures that these women remain in their low social-economical and second class status.