Top Official: U.S. Wants Cuba 'Liberation'

[Rose Siding]

WASHINGTON -- President Bush will be committed during his second term to the "liberation of Cuba" by extending moral and political support to the Cuban people, a top State Department official said Friday.

Roger Noriega, who heads the department's Latin American bureau, also said that once Fidel Castro is no longer in power, the United States is ready to support broad economic and political reform in Cuba "to ensure that vestiges of the regime don't hold on."

Noriega noted that Washington has a blueprint for providing social, economic and other types of assistance to Cuba in the post-Castro era.
.........
"The transition essentially is under way today," Noriega told a gathering of more than 200 people at an event sponsored by the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

In recent days, Castro ordered the release of some prisoners who were facing long sentences following their convictions last year of collaborating with the United States in anti-regime activities.

The Bush administration denied the allegation and said the detentions of 75 activists in March 2003 exposed the repressive nature of the regime.

The prisoner releases appeared to have been the result of Spanish mediation and could lead to a thaw in Cuban relations with the Europe.

http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-us-cuba,0,7378205.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines

[da_chimperor]

1. So Mr. Noriega wants to become the new leader of Cuba? This seems familiar

I wonder why? :)

[ElectroPrincess]

2. Oh shit, don't tell me we're gonna INVADE Cuba ... that's just

UN-Freak-in' believable! I take that back ... * is at his best when he plays the role of a bully.

[alittlelark]

20. It's just so, so....60's..... n/t

[BayCityProgressive]

3. Lets focus

on stabalizing the two countries we have already invaded. Also, Getting Palestine on a stable path is much more important than attacking nations like Cuba who have done nothing to us.

[0rganism]

6. Haven't you noticed yet? We don't do stability anymore

"Stability" is one of those pre-9/11 Clinton era things.

Even after invading Afghanistan and Iraq, Bush has somehow managed to keep his 2000 campaign promise not to "nation build." It really is an amazing feat, frankly I wouldn't even have considered it possible back in 2000.

[VegasWolf]

8. Stability is so previous administration! awol is single handedly

trying to destroy the world.

[aquart]

105. Palestine? Where's that?

[IndianaGreen]

113. Under Israel's jackboot!

"Palestine? Where's that?"

Under Israel's jackboot!

:mad:

[bitchkitty]

116. This might help you -

http://www.palestinehistory.com/history.htm

[distantearlywarning]

4. Well, at least Cuba is not too far away and fairly small.

It won't cost nearly as much to devastate...I mean invade...I mean liberate (yeah, that's the word they use!) as Iraq did. But do they have any oil resources? Otherwise, why bother?

[rainbow4321]

14. In return for getting Florida in the red column....

Guess they had to promise them something down there...
And if Cuba gets anyone on their side that decides Cuba doesn't need to be invaded, yeah, it may "cost us" just as much or more in lives and $$.

[Liberty Belle]

37. Cuban cigars.

All the decadent dictators smoke them.

[Mika]

76. Castro quit cigars and won a WHO award for Cuba's anti smoking campaign.

Over a decade ago.

[Carl Brennan]

5. Noriega and Bush mean reinstituting drugs, gambling and prostitution.

That is the whole basis for Bush's hatred of Castro. Castro kicked out the drug dealers and fucked up the CIA's drug smuggling ops. Google Trafficante+Cuba+Drugs. Santos Trafficante was the CIA's point man in Cuba before Castro and even stayed there awhile after Castro took over. Cuba was an important link in the international illegal drug trade.

[MileHiStealth]

25. Jack Ruby than went to Cuba to get Trafficante released ...

In 1959, Jack Ruby went to Havana to try to gain the release of Santos Trafficante, who had been jailed by Castro's government for his role in Mafia gambling and narcotics activities.

[Carl Brennan]

31. That is in Doug Valentine's book "Strength of the Wolf". Great

read if you get the chance.

Trafficante and Carlos Marcello were suspected of being the main perps in a conspiracy to kill JFK.

[Judi Lynn]

41. Santo Trafficante was a true scuzball.I'm sure you knew he was a friend to

Miguel Recarey, the Cuban "exile" who pulled off the largest Medicare fraud in U.S. history, and then fled the country. Recarey has been a close friend and associate of Jeb Bush's for years. Tons of stuff to read on this, and it's well known in Florida.

Contras, 'Bugs' and the Mob
By Sydney P. Freedberg

08/09/1988
The Wall Street Journal



MIAMI -- Miguel Recarey Jr. was a big man in this town. An immigrant from Cuba, he built a firm called International Medical Centers into America's largest health-maintenance organization for the elderly. He knew people, important enough people to be invited at least three times to the White House.

But then last year Mr. Recarey started getting invitations to court. A grand jury accused him of conspiring to bribe union leaders to get patients for IMC. A second indictment charged him with running an illegal wiretapping operation. Finally came yet another indictment, charging him with defrauding the U.S. government.

By this time, Mr. Recarey had vanished. His company collapsed. And investigators found themselves puzzling over what had happened to nearly $1 billion in federal Medicare funds that had poured into IMC since 1981. . . .

-- Mr. Recarey had longstanding business ties to the late Santo Trafficante Jr., who prosecutors say was the Florida underworld boss -- and who told Congress he once was part of a botched Central Intelligence Agency plot to kill Fidel Castro. . . .

IMC also gained various waivers of HHS rules, among them lucrative waivers that let the HMO draw more than 50% of its revenue from Medicare. C. McClain Haddow, a top aide to HHS Secretary Margaret Heckler in 1985, testified to Congress that he approved such a waiver on her instructions -- after both he and Mrs. Heckler had received telephone
calls from Vice President Bush 's son, Jeb. . . .
(snip/...)

http://www.campaignwatch.org/refs2.htm
(Scroll half-way down the page.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Every now and then you see a idjit who has absolutely no grasp of Cuban history, but who also has a full head of steam up about hating Cuba's revolution, and zero knowledge about the conditions which led to two different revolutions in Cuba against dictators.

Lots of opinions, no information to base them on, right?


Santo Trafficante, American Mafia Havana/Tampa boss

Trust or Hustle:the Bush record

JEB BUSH (George W’s brother) and a partner defaulted on a $4.5 million loan from a Florida S&L in 1988. The default helped trigger the S&L’s collapse, which cost taxpayers $285 million. Bush and partner repaid only ten percent of the irregular loan and, incredibly, also got to keep the real estate that collateralized it.4
In 1985, Jeb lobbied the federal government on behalf of Miami HMO owner Miguel Recarey to increase Recarey’s Medicare business ultimately to a total of $1 billion. The following year, Jeb received $75,000 from Recarey. Recarey, who had longstanding business ties to the late Florida Mafia boss Santos Trafficante, subsequently fled the U.S. under indictment, suspected of up to $100 million in Medicare fraud.5 Details .... JD 8/11/01

Miguel Recarey Jr., a former HMO executive from Miami now living in Spain, was the head of International Medical Centers, a fast growing HMO, when Jeb Bush met him.
Miguel Recarey, who had an arrest record and served 30 days in jail for tax evasion, was looking for a well-connected, eager businessman to help him with some tough federal rules. Recarey complained to Bush that tightened federal rules would hurt business by capping IMC's enrollment of Medicare patients. Recarey was seeking a waiver of a federal law that prevented an HMO from having more than 50 percent of its clients who were Medicare recipients. Jeb Bush, being the helpful son of then Vice President George Bush, placed a call to the Department of Health and Human Services on Recarey's behalf.

Recarey was granted an exemption from the rule, which resulted in IMC's Medicare income soaring to $1 billion.
When the HMO collapsed amid a sprawling bribery and fraud scandal, Recarey, charged with embezzlement and phony invoicing, fled to Spain.
The Challenge - How to let a tax evader know that Jeb cares.
The Bush Solution - Use family influence and connections to give Recarey an exemption from federal rules that helped him receive over $1 billion in Medicare payments while everyday Floridians suffer.
(snip/...)

http://www.whoseflorida.com/mean_genes.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's something which could trigger an interest in finding out more about Santo Trafficante, if this is true:

Bibliography sheet for tape #840 January 11, 1988 Side 2

"HMO, HEALTH MAINTENANCE ORGANIZATIONS, CZAR CHARMED VIP's. TYCOONS HIGH-LEVEL ALLIES HELPED HIM TO PROSPER" Miami Herald, 12-20-87 Dave Von Drehle

CAST OF CHARACTERS AND WHO GOT RICH ON IMC, INTERNATIONAL MEDICAL CENTERS, merged under the control of MIKE RECAREY JR.

MIGUEL (MIKE) RECAREY JR., came to USA in 1961 from Cuba. Father food export business in Batista's Cuba. Uncle a wealthy doctor from Cuba, all settled in Florida.

RECAREY MANAGED, THROUGH HIS "FRIENDS AND LOBBYISTS" to get $30,000,000 each month. $1,000,000 daily, for his enterprises, projects. When expenses too high, profits down, Recarey fled USA, left millions in bills.

JEB BUSH, SON OF VICE-PRESIDENT BUSH, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR GEORGE BUSH, 3 impt. calls to D.C.

1. Jeb Bush call to C. McClain Haddow, former head of Health and Human Services. Bush assured Haddow of Recarey's "solid background".
Failed to mention Mike Recarey's original funds to build a hospital came after "APPROACH TO MAFIA BOSS SANTO TRAFFICANTE AND ROBERT VESCO".

"Great Heroin Coup", Henrik Krueger
"The Nazi Legacy, Klaus Barbie", Linklater, Hilton Ascherson
"Skorzeny, Hitler's Commando", Glen Infield
The connections of Trafficante, Barbie, Merex, Colonia Dignidad, G. Bush's CIA and Iran weapons, Nazi deals.
CIA SANTOS TRAFFICANTE DIED 3-19-87, just when his links to this huge story was coming out. WEDTECH MIAMI STYLE
(snip/...)

http://www.maebrussell.com/Bibliography%20Sheets/840s2.html

[Carl Brennan]

67. Excellent post JL. More on Ruby's link to Trafficante and Poppy

Bush's keen interest.


Kitty Kelley's book "The family" cites Poppy Bush being very interested in Santos Trafficante--Ruby link when he was CIA head. Poppy later denied this interest. Page 347.


In one memo, dated September 15,1976, he asked his deputy director to look into the news accounts that linked Lee Harvey Oswald's assailant, Jack Ruby to the mobster Santos Trafficante. Bush wrote: "A recent Jack Anderson story referred to a November 1963 CIA cable, the subject matter of which had some UK journalist observing Jack Ruby visiting Trafficante in jail (in Cuba). Is there such a cable? If so, I would like to see it". .....

Still another memo, dted October 4, 1976, concerned an article say-ing that contrary to sworn testimony by Richard Helms, there was a CIA document that indicated a low-level CIA official had once considered using Oswald as a source of intelligence information about the Soviet Union. George wrote: "Will this cause problems for Helms?

Years later, when George became President of the United States, he would deny making any attempt to review the agency files on the JFK assassination. When he made this claim, he did not realize that the agency would release eighteen documents "in full" and "in part" that showed he had indeed, as CIA director, requested information--not once but several times--on a wide range of questions surrounding the Kennedy assassination.

[htuttle]

7. Do they do ANYTHING but threaten other countries?

If they're not threatening a country, they're bribing it to help us go invade some third country.

[Erika]

9. When do our citizens get liberated?

Our local news showed a young woman who has fallen on hard times. Her husband has been jailed and her and her sickly infant have no place to stay or money. Our local Christian rescue mission allows her to stay there at night but kicks her and the baby out all day long. It's cold here. They kick them all out during the day as an incentive for them to get jobs. They offer no daycare and the mother has no one to leave the child with while she looks for work.

This "Christian" administration makes me sick.

[rainbow4321]

13. You mean like helping the homeless?

Well, in Dallas, they get to wait til January <assuming the city gets their act together by then>. Dallas forecast for the next week--rainy and in the 30's/40's at night.


http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/120304dnmethomeless.2f5e3c3.html


Zoning officials on Thursday failed to act on a measure that would have allowed the city’s homeless population to spend the night inside the Day Resource Center as city council members had originally intended.

The decision by the Zoning Ordinance Advisory Committee to postpone a vote on a zoning change allowing the downtown center to open around the clock leaves the homeless literally out in the cold until at least January.

The Dallas City Council voted Nov. 10 to spend $300,000 to keep the center open at all times starting Dec. 1 after two people were killed when a truck accidentally ran into a homeless encampment outside the building. Up to 200 people have slept on the sidewalks around the Day Resource Center, at Ervay and Cadiz streets, after it closed each night.

City officials on Wednesday said they were forced to abort their plan to bring the homeless indoors after they decided that local zoning regulations prohibited that. Instead, they gathered the homeless inside the shelter’s fenced-in, open-air parking lot. Mr. Waghorne said the city, for several years, has opened the Day Resource Center overnight to the homeless when temperatures drop below 32 degrees with a 20 percent chance of rain, or when the wind chill factor reaches zero. “If they can get around for one night they can get around it till they get this thing fixed,” he said.

[Erika]

17. Bush has turned maniacal in his nation building

I guess helping the poor in his home country doesn't bring him the glory he seeks.

[zann725]

114. He doesn't help them in other countries either...unless their country has

assets to steal or control!

But as to the poor and homeless here, I would NOT put it past him to soon start up "Poor Houses" (where he could demand free, 'forced' labor) in true Dicken-esque style.

And THAT would be just the beginning...

We MUST turn this election around! Another 4 years is FAR too late! :nuke:

[ninkasi]

30. When the poor of our country are helped...

when we have full employment at a living wage; when our roads, and bridges, and all public facilities are in top shape; when our schools have enough money to hire enough qualified teachers to teach; and we have government provided health care; when drugs needed to sustain life, and health, are affordable; when we have all of these things, then maybe we can talk about liberating other countries.

Not that Republicans give a rat's ass, but how must that make our people feel, to see the smarmy propaganda of rebuilt schools, and water treatment plants, in Iraq, and to know that our same facilities are decaying? Now, of course, it is our moral responsibility to restore what we destroyed, but what a shameful waste.

The shame, and sorrow, is the we pay for it all. The wealthy do not have to give up a damn thing to pay for the Cowardly Chimp's illegal war. It's the ones of us who are hurt by neocon policies who suffer, and pay. Things have to change for this country to survive.

[Menshevik]

10. We already have a military base there

so as you can see, we're ahead of schedule

[Patsy Stone]

11. I sais they should have done it instead of Iraq

If they just wanted to get rid of a "bad man." Plus, every Cuban would vote Republican forever...

They're still angry with JFK over that Bay of Pigs thing. Really, really angry.

[hollowdweller]

12. Wonder how the Cubans in FL who voted for Bush would feel if we "liberated

them the way we did Iraq. Bomb the hell out of everything. Turn it to rubble, kill about an equal number of civilians and military?

[IndianaGreen]

16. They won't care a bit

They seek revenge for real and imagined wrongs that they feel the Cuban Revolution perpetrated on them. They won't care a bit if 100,000 Cubans die by American bombing. All they care about is returning to Cuba and take back their property and exact revenge on all those that supported or were sympathetic to Fidel.

I expect a blood bath.

[Florida_Geek]

22. Excuse me

"All they care about is returning to Cuba and take back their property and exact revenge on all those that supported or were sympathetic to Fide"

The only property Bush cares about is that "owned" by his corporate donors. And they will claim more than they had before fidel.

[Abe Linkman]

15. bushco wants a place to "showcase" privatization of everything

the United States is ready to support broad economic and political reform in Cuba "to ensure that vestiges of the regime don't hold on."

Meaning: privatization of all Government-provided services.

[MisterP]

18. besides Iraq, where they've privatized everything but the kitchen sink

(which they stole outright)

[shrike]

24. And it's been a disaster

And we're next.

[Erika]

19. Bush's aim is global fascism

with him as the grand ruler. What a sad time for America.

[Mika]

21. Noriega: "The transition essentially is under way today"

"The transition essentially is under way today"

Yep.. in Batistano Miami.

[guajira]

23. Cuba has no Homeless, Has Almost 100% Literacy, Healthcare

for all, school is mandatory and students have uniforms. No other country in Latin America can claim those benefits. My friends who have been to Nicaragua and El Salvador say they saw much more poverty there than in Cuba.

If cowardly bully B* decides to invade Cuba, he will find out that Cuba has many allies in the world, including Americans. It might not be as easy as he thinks!

[mrstick]

26. NeoCon path to a better cuba:

1. Wait for Castro to meet St. Kerensky at the Pearly Gates
2. Bring in the IMF to "help Cuba develop"
3. Force them to stop spending money on social programs
4. Strip the island of all its assets
5. Force them export all their goods
6. Make them totally dependent on tourism
7. Force them to buy American goods
8. Sit back and watch 5% of Cubans get wealthier while the rest get poorer

[burrowowl]

27. Noriega should be in jail

for crimes against peace and humanity. He is putrid.

[Just Me]

28. Maybe, Fidel and Putin will become soul mates,...

,...now that Putin has broken soul relations with Bush.

Honestly, I have seriously accepted that the so-called "neocons" are being assholes to purposely bring about a world conflict. The odds for their survival are very, very high,...their belief in their own bizarre agenda is complete,...so, why should they give a shit about the possibility of crushing the rest of humanity?

GOD I hope these mofos go down hard!!!

[Erika]

35. The Far Right Wing Religious Zealots truly believe

this is the end of time and that Bush was chosen by God to facilitate Armageddon. They believe Bush is God's tool in bringing on the Rapture. The dangerous part is that Bush himself may very well believe it. He talks about "democraticizing from Tehran to Israel". He tries to reinforce his axis of evil against Iran and North Korea. He has become completely maniacal in his thoughts and actions. He is a dangerous man.

[mrbassman03]

29. We "Liberated" Cuba from the Spanish in the early 1900s.

ie. Invaded Cuba before they could liberate themselves from Spain.

[Minstrel Boy]

32. If Bush doesn't think the US is enough of a global pariah

he ought to get a kick out of the world reaction to his "liberating" Cuba.

Cuba and Castro have many friends. There would be none of the hedging "Of course everybody knows Saddam is a bad man, but the war is wrong." Bush would be invoking a whirlwind.

[daleo]

33. I don't think Cuba would be a piece of cake

Or an invasion would have happened by now. Plus, the U.S. military is overextended already. I think Bush and the neo-cons are just hoping bluster and threats will keep the whole world off balance, wondering where they will strike next. Bush is the most dangerously arrogant leader I can ever recall. Nixon was the exemplar of caution and prudence next to Bush.

[KDLarsen]

34. ".. exposed the repressive nature of the regime.."

.. I thought the regime had just released most of those activists? Or is it just another case of the Bush administration living in the past?

[Liberty Belle]

36. Cuba, the 51st state. Coming soon.

[OutsourceBush]

38. Will Bush liberate Guantanamo while he is at it?

"detentions of 75 activists in March 2003 exposed the repressive nature of the regime"

Huh? Not like Castro is torturing prisoners in Guantanamo or anything.

[Hosnon]

39. I'll probably get nailed for this but I have to say that some things

that Bushco. does are things that I think need to be done. I mean - Cuba...give me a break. This place needs to be released from Castro's grip - dictators by nature fall. It's too bad he fucks up in too many other areas for me to like him for stuff like this.

[LynnTheDem]

42. Isn't that up to the Cubans in Cuba to decide?

What gives you, or bush, the right to decide other nations' leaders?

[aneerkoinos]

50. Exactly

If Castro was the evil tyrant US propaganda tries to paint him, Cubans would get rid of him by themselves. But with all his faults, he's still quite popular and large majority of Cubans are happy with their system. What oppression there is in Cuba, it can be blamed on US, as necessary measures to defend Cuba against US aggression and destabilation efforts.

[Hosnon]

89. I don't think it is always up to the citizens to decide. There are some

leaders that are just so bad that the world needs to take action. If some tyrant took over Canada I wouldn't want to sit back and let the people decide when that tyrant clearly won't give them the chance to.

Plus, the article said that Bush was committed to providing support to the people.

[aneerkoinos]

95. But sitting back

comfily while Bush' novel version of populist fascism is taking over US and trying to do the same in Iraq?

And you believe Bush is committed to supporting any people?

Are you certain you are at the right discussion board? ;)

[Hosnon]

97. Hey trust me buddy...I did everything but sit back during this election.

And come on...this is why I hate conservatives - you disagree once and you are black-listed. Statistically, the chances that someone disagrees with EVERYTHING Bush does is close to zero.

[TankLV]

99. I and millions of others disagree with EVERYTHING bunkerboy did/does.

EVERY SINGLE HORRIBLE FUCKING THING.

You ARE lost!

[Hosnon]

100. Everything...seriously? Even Afghanistan? eom

[aquart]

108. Yes. Including Afghanistan.

Much as I believe there is nothing too nasty to do to a Taliban man, there is NO effective way to invade Afghanistan. And it hasn't been effective.....except to restore the opium trade.

Osama didn't deserve nation state status, which is what George gave the cockroach when he declared war like the John Wayne watching moron he is.
The effective way to get that bastard was police action and covert ops.

Please note that Osama is still not in custody and that al qaeda is larger and more authoritative than it was before 9/11.

[TankLV]

98. You sure are a poster boy for Mississippi's awful educational system!

That's for sure!

[Hosnon]

103. Um...not from Mississippi, happen to go to law school here.

And to what are you referring anyway? The fact that I see flaws in democracy? I hope that ain't it:)

[SammyWinstonJack]

121. Like bu$h*?

"There are some leaders that are just so bad that the world needs to take action."

[aneerkoinos]

46. Nailing you

USA sucks badly compared to Cuba. From the bigger perspective it would be much smaller loss for world to be "released from" US fascism and totalitarian consumerism than from Cuban socialism.

You guys are doing your best to destroy the Earth and fuck it up for all the people besides fighting against democracy everywhere you can, thank you very much, while Cuban socialism has given world example how to survive Peak Oil (secial period after Soviet collapse) not only avoiding collapse but maintaining health care and education at the level of Nordic countries' standards. http://www.communitysolution.org/pdfs/NS2.pdf

Only reason why you hate Castro and Cuba is because they show example to other nations that other social models from corporate fascism are not only possible, they work better. In human development report Cuba does much better than other comparable LA countries despite decades of illegal economic sanctions against it.
http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2004/

[rman]

47. The world needs to be released from Bush's grip

before he fucks it up entirely.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

60. why not make a list of all the places you'd like the US to invade

and send it to Chimp? maybe youll come up with a couple dozen countries that he hasn't thought of yet. Maybe then youll get be given a medal by the president for being a junior liberator or something.

we have enough troops and money to liberate the entire world and unify it under the chimp, we just need more people like you to think about neat places to invade.

[Hosnon]

90. A bit irrational relative to my post don't you think? I never said

anything about invasion, nor does the article. It talks of providing support to the people.

Try to calm down a bit and debate the points as they are.

[aneerkoinos]

93. The people

Guess on whose side they are at least outside US, if the choise is between Bush and Castro? Do you really believe Bush talking about "supporting the people", that majority of Cubans would choose some US puppet rather that stick to free health care, good education and social policies, equality etc.?

So how about you start considering siding with the the people against Bush and corporate fascism? Or is that too much to ask on this board?

[Hosnon]

96. I always saw that Cuban-Americans disliked Castro hence they

voted for Bush but if I'm wrong please point me to a counter-source. And siding with Bush on this point doesn't necessarily mean I'm siding with corporate fascism. Both are for the most part horrible but the world isn't black and white and neither is Bush. He does do some things that aren't bad.

[aneerkoinos]

101. Easily corrected

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1044899

post number three, even Cuban Americans donate more to Dems than to Repugs.

But that is not the point, the point is whom or what kind of society the majority of Cuban Cubans support. And if you don't know the correct answer to that, blame it on too much exposure to US corporate media.

[Hosnon]

102. Well, I am skeptical of Americans because we are ill-informed

due to Rubert Murdoch and friends and we are a republic. I don't trust the majority view of Americans many times. Cubans, inside Cuba, it seems to me would be even less informed.

Thanks for the graph showing Cuban American support. What is the Cuban-American majority view on Castro though?

[aneerkoinos]

104. informed

Surely you don't think that Cubans in Cuba are less informed about their own country than USAns are about Cuba?

Or that the thousands of doctors Cuba keeps sending abroad, and who keep coming back to Cuba can be kept uninformed?

Or that the Cubans emigrating elsewhere than US for economical and/or family reasons but who say they have no big quarrel with Castro or dislike for socialism are not informed?

I really don't know what view majority of Cuban-Americans have on Castro, why should that matter? They come to US for multitude of reasons, not all but lots of them are terrorists, criminals and social misfits that Castro is more than happy to get rid of and let Florida suffer from.

[RetroLounge]

63. If you are so into bush and his invasions

then why are you not enlisting to help him out?

:eyes:

RL

[Hosnon]

91. Ahem...invasions? Come on guys...read the post and the article. EOM

[IndianaGreen]

83. America "needs to be released" from the Religious Right's grip

This place needs to be released from Castro's grip

Physician, heal thyself!

The USA is such a fucking good country that half the country cannot afford decent health care while impoverished Cuba provides free health care to all its citizens, and that is despite the US embargo on medicines and medical equipment.

The USA is the miserable failure when compared to Cuba!

I will point out to you that prior to the Cuban Revolution Jews were not allowed to practice their faith openly, Catholicism being the "official religion" of the State.

[Judi Lynn]

85. Thanks for your post. I didn't know this.

Went to look for images in google: Cuba synagogue. There are quite a few interesting ones. Attached was this article:

Cuba trip opens minds, hearts
(Posted: 2/12/2002)

Barbara Wolff

The equation is always, "Money equals happiness," or at least happier.

Jordan Gantz had accepted that math since childhood. Now a senior from Wilmette, Ill. majoring in psychology, Gantz took a week out of his winter break with five of his fellow students at the University of Wisconsin-Madison to visit the tiny Jewish community of Camaguey, Cuba. The experience turned that psychological computation completely around for him.

"My whole life I've associated a lack of wealth with unhappiness. I really didn't expect the Cubans to be so pleased with their lives. I was taken by the simplicity of life there, and how, for the most part, everyone I met there seemed as happy or happier than many of the people in our culture," Gantz says.

Only about 80 strong, the Jewish population in Camaguey opened homes and hearts to the students, with the object of getting to know each other better, working side by side and seeing what they could all learn from the experience.

Gantz, for example, is especially interested in the intersection of psychology and culture. He says his Cuban odyssey provided insight he couldn't have gotten any other way.
(snip/...)

http://www.news.wisc.edu/7094.html

[IndianaGreen]

87. The Cuba-America Jewish Mission

Here are a couple of excellent Cuba Jewish links:



THE CUBA-AMERICA JEWISH MISSION (CAJM), is a non-profit organization dedicated to assisting with the revitalization of Jewish life in Cuba and to working to improve the physical and spiritual well-being of the Jews of Cuba and the new Cuban Olim to Israel.

http://www.thecajm.org/

This is a resource rich site about Cuban Jews:



http://www.jewishcuba.org/siteindex1.html

[Judi Lynn]

92. They're great. So much to study here!

Thanks so much. There's a wealth of great things to learn in these two links.

[arikara]

94. What business is it of bush or the US, pray tell...

Bush is causing much more harm to everyone and everything than Castro could ever imagine.

[aquart]

107. Are you sure you're in the right place?

What other "grips" do you feel America should release? Are you pretending that our goal in ANY of these ventures is democracy? One man one vote? LIKE WE DON'T HAVE HERE?????

Do you believe Negroponte's death squads do God's work? Do you believe over 100,000 dead Iraqis is a necessary price for getting rid of Saddam?

Are you annoyed we never got the flowers for invading Iraq?

Do you believe we've IMPROVED Iraq? In what way?

What ELSE does BushCo do that you believe needs to be done?

[NurseLefty]

40. Carnival Cruises, Taco Bell, Disney Havana

Yeah, I am really looking forward to the day when Cuba can have these wonderful gifts of American life...
:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[Judi Lynn]

43. There are still many people who are unaware of Kennedy's changing attitude

toward Cuba, and his plans to forge a new relationship with Cuba directly before his murder:

Kennedy Sought Dialogue with Cuba

INITIATIVE WITH CASTRO ABORTED BY ASSASSINATION,
DECLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS SHOW

Oval Office Tape Reveals Strategy to hold clandestine Meeting in Havana; Documents record role of ABC News correspondent Lisa Howard as secret intermediary in Rapprochement effort

Posted - November 24, 2003


Documents Readers
Bay of Pigs Declassified: The Secret CIA Report
The Cuban Missile Crisis, 1962

Washington D.C. - On the 40th anniversary of the assassination of John F. Kennedy, and the eve of the broadcast of a new documentary film on Kennedy and Castro, the National Security Archive today posted an audio tape of the President and his national security advisor, McGeorge Bundy, discussing the possibility of a secret meeting in Havana with Castro. The tape, dated only seventeen days before Kennedy was shot in Dallas, records a briefing from Bundy on Castro's invitation to a U.S. official at the United Nations, William Attwood, to come to Havana for secret talks on improving relations with Washington. The tape captures President Kennedy's approval if official U.S. involvement could be plausibly denied.

The possibility of a meeting in Havana evolved from a shift in the President's thinking on the possibility of what declassified White House records called "an accommodation with Castro" in the aftermath of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Proposals from Bundy's office in the spring of 1963 called for pursuing "the sweet approach…enticing Castro over to us," as a potentially more successful policy than CIA covert efforts to overthrow his regime. Top Secret White House memos record Kennedy's position that "we should start thinking along more flexible lines" and that "the president, himself, is very interested in ." Castro, too, appeared interested. In a May 1963 ABC News special on Cuba, Castro told correspondent Lisa Howard that he considered a rapprochement with Washington "possible if the United States government wishes it. In that case," he said, "we would be agreed to seek and find a basis" for improved relations.
(snip)

Among the key documents relevant to this history:


• Oval Office audio tape, November 5, 1963. The tape records a conversation between the President and McGeorge Bundy regarding Castro's invitation to William Attwood, a deputy to UN Ambassador Adlai Stevenson, to come to Cuba for secret talks. The President responds that Attwood should be taken off the U.S. payroll prior to such a meeting so that the White House can plausibly deny that any official talks have taken place if the meeting leaks to the press.
  
• White House memorandum, Top Secret, "Mr. Donovan's Trip to Cuba," March 4, 1963. This document records President Kennedy's interest in negotiations with Castro and his instructions to his staff to "start thinking along more flexible lines" on conditions for a dialogue with Cuba.
  
• White House memorandum, Top Secret, "Cuba -- Policy," April 11, 1963. A detailed options paper from Gordon Chase, the Latin America specialist on the National Security Council, to McGeorge Bundy recommending "looking seriously at the other side of the coin-quietly enticing Castro over to us."
  
• CIA briefing paper, Secret, "Interview of U.S. Newswoman with Fidel Castro Indicating Possible Interest in Rapprochement with the United States," May 1, 1963. A debriefing of Lisa Howard by CIA deputy director Richard Helms, regarding her ABC news interview with Castro and her opinion that he is "ready to discuss rapprochement." The document contains a notation, "Psaw," meaning President Kennedy read the report on Howard and Castro.
  
• U.S. UN Mission memorandum, Secret, Chronology of events leading up Castro invitation to receive a U.S. official for talks in Cuba, November 8, 22, 1963. This chronology was written by William Attwood and records the evolution of the initiative set in motion by Lisa Howard for a dialogue with Cuba. The document describes the party at Howard's Manhattan apartment on September 23, 1963, where Attwood met with Cuban UN Ambassador Carlos Lechuga to discuss the potential for formal talks to improve relations. In an addendum, Attwood adds information on communications, using the Howard home as a base, leading up to the day the President was shot in Dallas.
  
• White House memorandum, Secret, November 12, 1963. McGeorge Bundy reports to William Attwood on Kennedy's opinion of the viability of a secret meeting with Havana. The president prefers that the meeting take place in New York at the UN where it will be less likely to be leaked to the press.
  
• White House memorandum, Top Secret, "Approach to Castro," November 19, 1963. A memo from Gordon Chase to McGeorge Bundy updating him on the status of arrangements for a secret meeting with the Cubans.
  
• White House memorandum, Top Secret, "Cuba -- Item of Presidential Interest," November 25, 1963. A strategy memo from Gordon Chase to McGeorge Bundy assessing the problems and potential for pursuing the secret talks with Castro in the aftermath of Kennedy's assassination.
  
• Message from Fidel Castro to Lyndon Johnson, "Verbal Message given to Miss Lisa Howard of ABC News on February 12, 1964, in Havana, Cuba." A private message carried by Howard to the White House in which Castro states that he would like the talks started with Kennedy to continue: "I seriously hope (and I cannot stress this too strongly) that Cuba and the United States can eventually sit down in an atmosphere of good will and of mutual respect and negotiate our differences."

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB103/index.htm

[Make7]

54. My Daddy always said listen to their words but judge 'em by their actions.

Let me get this right - during the Kennedy administration the US illegally invades Cuba and then they illegally blockade Cuba, basically telling them that they have no right to have the same exact weapons the US has, and after that he wants to play nice?

Here's an example of "quietly enticing Castro over to us":

"The commando raids were combined with a total US trade and credit embargo, which continues to this day, and which genuinely hurt the Cuban economy and chipped away at the society's standard of living. So unyielding has the embargo been that when Cuba was hard hit by a hurricane in October 1963, and Casa Cuba, a New York social club, raised a large quantity of clothing for relief, the United States refused to grant it an export license on the grounds that such a shipment was 'contrary to the national interest'." - William Blum, Killing Hope, p.187

The word of anyone in the US government is absolutely worthless unless there are actions to back it up.

-Make7

[Judi Lynn]

55. The plans to transform relations were in the earliest, unpublicized stage

at the time Kennedy was murdered. I've read he said he believed it would be the right thing to do to start bringing Cuba into the U.S.'s orbit. But, he didn't really get a chance to see this unfold, as someone thought it would be more important to kill him as soon as possible.

Thanks for your quote from William Blum. I've never seen that before. Simply goddawful, but so consistant with the pattern in place, isn't it?

[Make7]

61. Say one thing, do another.

The interesting thing about US foreign policy is that the left hand doesn't always know what the right hand is doing. (Sometimes it does. And sometimes it just denies that it does.) All too often the US is publicly "committed" to diplomacy with someone, while at the same time covertly planning to have the CIA overthrow them. Or publicly antagonistic and secretly negotiating deals. In some cases, it could just be that the US is trying to see what approach will meet with the most success, but it certainly makes anything they say hard to believe. Especially since in some cases it has been proven that they were flat out lying.
__________

In the past the US government has offered and given humanitarian aid to its adversaries without changing the nature of the relationship. In my opinion, if Kennedy had a new attitude regarding Cuba, they would have at least let humanitarian aid be sent to them. If his attitude doesn't get translated into action, it really makes no difference.

Maybe since the US promised not to invade Cuba as a condition of the missiles being removed, they were surmising that they had to convince him without guns. A situation that I'm sure was uncharted territory for the US in this hemisphere.
__________

My favorite thing about US foreign policy is that for how often the government reiterates its belief in democracy, they almost never act like they want the people in other countries to actually decide how to run their own affairs. In fact, usually they are trying very hard to prevent that very thing - democracy. Say one thing, do another.

-Make7

BTW - I love The National Security Archive site. TONS of good information there.

[Judi Lynn]

62. Tremendous site! I've just swiped it for my own future reference.

What a lot of great info. Thanks for posting this.


What a repugnant photo!

Thanks for mentioning the condition accepted after the Bay of Pigs, concerning the promise not to invade. I'm really convinced _Bush would make up a completely obnoxious LIE to serve as an excuse to invade, but remembering that we actually PROMISED not to do it, in the 1960's may be helpful.

[LynnTheDem]

44. maybe Cuba is why bush hates Canada

Coz Canada has been on very good terms w Cuba & Castro for decades. Cuba is also a very popular holiday destination for Canadians.

Bet that makes bush gnash his teeth in impotent fury. :)

[Judi Lynn]

45. You're so right. Trudeau's and Castro's friendship spanned decades.

Page of photos of one of Pierre Trudeau's trips to Cuba:
http://www.nscuba.org/Trudeau/photos.html

[LynnTheDem]

48. I miss PT

:(

I'd so LOVE to hear him give his opinion on bush...and boy howdy would the entire world HEAR his opinion on the ignorant rat-arse spoilt fratboy idiot bush! PT wasn't the shy type when it came to putting morons in their place, LOL!

His boys sure are good-looking...wonder if they'll go into politics down the road.

[Judi Lynn]

49. I'll bet his sons will.They've been given an education in politics already

The world could use two young intelligent liberal politicians now more than ever!

Interesting that Jimmy Carter met Fidel Castro when they both attended Pierre Trudeau's funeral. I believe I heard it was there that Fidel Castro invited Jimmy Carter to visit Cuba, which he did a year ago. You remember _Bush tried to screw it up by having John Bolton announce that Cuba was possibly building double use biological weapons. Jimmy Carter didn't lie down for this nasty trick and told the Cubans that the State Department had told him specifically they had no information of anything like this when he had been briefed before going to Cuba, in response to a direct question from Carter about this charge they had bandied about earlier.

Here's something I never knew until a moment ago:


Journalist René Lévesque interviewing Fidel Castro, Montreal

Lévesque, the famous Quebec radio and television journalist, interviewed Castro on his first visit to Canada in 1959. Lévesque went on to found the Parti Québecois, and was Premier of Quebec from 1976-1983.
Paul-Henri Talbot, 1959
La Presse



Fidel Castro addressing Junior Chamber of Commerce, Montreal
Alberto Díaz Gutierrez (Korda), 1959
Oficina de Asuntos Históricos del Consejo de Estado


Pierre Trudeau being driven by Fidel Castro after his arrival at Havana Airport
1976
Estudios Revolución, Consejo de Estado de la República de Cuba


Prime Minister Jean Chrétien with Vice-President Carlos Lage
and President of the Cuban National Assembly Ricardo Alarcón,
Havana. Prime Minister Chrétien was the second Canadian Prime
Minister to make an official visit to Cuba.
Jean-Marc Carisse, 1998
Prime Minister's Office

[flordehinojos]

51. Bush wants LIBERATION OF CUBA? PLEASE TRANSLATE into

INVASION AND OCCUPATION OF CUBA TO PLEASE AND RETURN FAVORS TO THE CANF, ROS-LEHTINEN, THE DIAZ-BALART BROS., and the next generation of dictators from the right wing who will clamp down their puppet hands, like those of chalawi, on Cuba.

If the bushes were a disase, they would be one of those viral or infectious diseases that everyone wants to get rid of... unfortunately, no antidote seems to be working against the diseases or against the bushes.

[Judi Lynn]

52. I've read that the Diaz-Balarts' dad was active in Cuban politics

with Batista's government. Also, their aunt Mirta married Fidel Castro. Here's Mirta:

Ileana's father was a C.P.A. in Cuba. In Florida, the taxpayer-funded propaganda Radio Marti has had the repeating honor of programs featuring BOTH the fathers Diaz and Ros, receiving salaries while they drone on and on, giving people in Cuba the benefit of their vast worldly knowledge. Oh, God! What's not to like?



Here they are, surrounding one of their favorite Congress whores, Dan Burton. He's really at their disposal, wink wink nudge nudge.
What a creepy crew.

[flordehinojos]

65. there was a Lincoln Diaz-Balart who used to be a congressman in theBatista

Senate in Cuba in the l950s. I think he was either an uncle of these Diaz-Balarts (or a great uncle), I am not sure. It is also said that these Diaz-Balarts' father used to go around carrying a machine gun during the last days of the Batista government to protect himself from the Castro fighters and to protect a suitcase full of money that Batista had given him to protect and deposit in a bank in Spain. I don't know how much of this is true. It is true that there was a Lincoln Diaz-Balart who was a Senator in the Batista government.

(and I actually thought wrongly that Ros-Lehtinen's father used to be a mounty in the Batista government in Havana.)

But, the saddest thing is that those Cubans who opposed the Batista government, who had family members assassinated by the Batista troops because they were active in the fight against Batista, and who eventually came to live in this country --including Puerto Rico-- gave their full support to GWB in this election cycle. My cousin was one of them, and so did all of my brother's school friends (they went to school together from 1st grade on through to high school graduation), including those whose fathers and mothers left Spain during the Francisco Franco era because of the terrible conditions in Spain during that era.

I know that they grew up listening to their parents stories of horror and deprivation because their fathers and mothers would often talk about those back in Spain times during the family hour at the dining room tables.

Neither my brother nor I could explain the LOG in the eyes of those Cubans with whom we grew up.

[frustrated_lefty]

53. History...

The Bay of Pigs incident occurred primarily because Russia had missiles in Cuba...guess what? The US had more missiles in Turkey.

Theodore Shackley (the blond ghost) failed to orchestrate multiple attempts to assasinate Castro. Not once, not twice. 33 times, with one attempt including poisoned cigars. Oddly enough, chemical attempts were made to make his beard fall out.

Failing to kill Castro, Shackley went to Laos, where he and company friends established a Pepsi outlet which funneled heroin into the US through, you guessed it, Florida. Guess who helped in this little maneuver? Santos Trafficante.

I'm not a fan of Castro. But I respect a man who has avoided assasination attempts for nigh on 40 years. And, Bush is a pig, which settles the issue for me.

[Judi Lynn]

56. Just looked up Shackley. It's said he was the "blond ghost"

because he hated getting his photo taken. This is the only one I could find quickly:

Shackley, whose nickname was the "Blond Ghost" (because he hated to be photographed) became involved in CIA's Black Operations. This involved a policy that was later to become known as Executive Action (a plan to remove unfriendly foreign leaders from power). This including a coup d'état that overthrew the Guatemalan government of Jacobo Arbenz in 1954 after he introduced land reforms and nationalized the United Fruit Company.

In 1962 Shackley was appointed by William Harvey as deputy chief of JM WAVE, the CIA station in Miami. In April, 1962, Shackley was involved in delivering supplies to Johnny Roselli as part of the plan to assassinate Fidel Castro. Later that year he became head of the station that served as operational headquarters for Operation Mongoose. He was also responsible for gathering intelligence and recruiting spies in Cuba. Most of the anti-Castro Cubans that the CIA managed to infiltrate into Cuba were captured and either imprisoned or executed.
(snip)

Shackley also played an important role in the overthrow of Salvador Allende in Chile. As his biographer, David Corn points out: "Salvador Allende died during the coup. When the smoke cleared, General Augusto Pinochet, the head of a military junta, was in dictatorial control... Elections were suspended. The press was censored. Allende supporters and opponents of the junta were jailed. Torture centers were established. Executions replaced soccer matches in Santiago's stadiums. Bodies floated down the Mapocho river. Due in part to the hard work of Shackley and dozens of other Agency bureaucrats and operatives, Chile was free of the socialists."


By 1975 he was promoted to Deputy Director of Operations, where he served under George H. W. Bush. He therefore became second-in-command of all CIA covert activity.
(snip/...)

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Theodore_Shackley

What a legacy. He may as well have been Dan Mitrione:

http://www.countercurrents.org/us-lucas260704.htm

Googling will tell you he snuffed homeless from the streets doing demonstrations of torture for people he was training in Latin America. They just pitched them out on the streets when he was finished. He was proud of his work.

When he was finally kidnapped by a group he had been targeting, the Tupameros, who killed him, President Richard Nixon had his remains returned to the U.S., sent his son-in-law, David Eisenhower, and his Press Secretary to the funeral, where Frank Sinatra sang. He was hailed as a national hero. (Republican, that is!) Figures.

Thanks for the info. on Shackley. He surely looks like a person who should be studied, by all means.

[frustrated_lefty]

58. That's the man.

I don't know what else to say. He was evil.

[American Tragedy]

57. How retro

[LakeCohoon]

59. Like Arafat

Hopefully, so goes Castro.

[Rose Siding]

69. Why?

[LakeCohoon]

115. Because I think it would be good for the people of Cuba. n/t

[Rose Siding]

117. Interesting. Do you live in Cuba?

I think the people in Cuba should decide about what's good for them.
They are capable of making good decisions after all, being highly educated and healthy.

It seems they enjoy having an infant mortality rate that's lower than the US and a literacy rate that's higher. I think they have their priorities in line the way they want them.

[Mika]

118. Here are the stats that confirm your post

Learn from Cuba
http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/learn.htm

“It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the (World) Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the (World) Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

-

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

“What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.

[Rose Siding]

123. Thanks Mika

That's a good article.

Here's a recent infant mort rate ranking chart- from highest to lowest of 225 countries.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html

[Judi Lynn]

119. You could use some time brushing up on the facts.

A Review of United States Policy Toward Cuba

by David Mercile

(snip)
....The United States post-Cold War efforts to rewrite and reverse history are now focused most intensely on Cuba. Cuba is the world's leading symbol of resistance to U.S. imperial domination. The U.S. has become obsessed with intimidating the Cuban people into submission. The goal of the US blockade is to starve the Cuban people into altering their sympathies and thoughts. While proclaiming to the world that Cuba must accept the mandates of the United States or face contrived hardship, the US government is also notifying all poor and developing nations that they cannot choose their own path. This arrogant and nationalistic attitude prevents respect among imperialist powers for what the UN charter describes as "the principle of equal rights and self-determinations of peoples."

Cuba has not abandoned its struggle to chart its own future in defiance of the US attempts to reverse history. "A revolution is not a bed of roses ... a revolution is a struggle to the death between the future and the past," Cuban President Fidel Castro said long ago. United States policy fails to reflect upon the significance of the Cuban Revolution, its fundamental ideals, and how relevant the achievement of its purposes remain today. There are several reasons for the failure of US policy. First, most of the Cuban people realize the United States does not genuinely care about their welfare. Second, Cubans recognize that they will forfeit the system of social services that has emerged as the envy of the Third World and one of the most commendable products of the Revolution. Third, there is great fear of the extreme rightist Cuban-Americans who could assume power if they returned to Cuba. No one in Cuba is foolish enough to think that such a government would be even remotely democratic or tolerant of many of the views prevalent in Cuba today. Fourth, possibly the most neglected reason for the failure of US policy, most Cubans approve of the accomplishments of their Revolutionary government, and feel connected to these gains. While accepting neocolonial status might result in new wealth flowing to Cuba, most Cubans are sagacious enough to know they will not be sharing in it.

To the majority of Cubans, integration into the imperialist network would be a political disaster. In 1994, one of the poorer years of the Revolution, 69 percent of Cubans described themselves in an independent US poll as either Revolutionaries, Socialists, or Communists. The United States would never allow a candidate who fit any of those descriptions to come to power in an election. The ultra-rightist Cubans in the United States who claim to desire to bring democracy to Cuba are completely incapable of winning an election there. Their yearning for wealth and power presents the very real danger that Cuba could become another Chile.

Abandoning Cuba's status as a fully sovereign nation would also have a detrimental effect on the social services provided to the people. The report from the American Association for World Health gives extensive evidence pertaining to Cuba's excellent health care system. What other Third World nation can boast of universal health care and an educational system that offers free university education? According to 1997 statistics provided by UNESCO, Cuba's student-teacher ratio was considerably lower than those of the United States, Canada, and the rest of Latin America. As José Martí said, "An educated people will always be strong and free."
(snip/...)

http://www.impactpress.com/articles/febmar99/cuba2399.html

[anarchy1999]

64. Why can't we make all these criminals go away?

What are we doing? What are we allowing "in or name", to happen?

What are we doing?!? What are we letting happen?

I think I may have to get away from DU for another day or two.

Why couldn't we have been in the streets of DC, like the Ukranians have been? More important to go shopping and fill up those stadiums and sports bars for the weekend football, I guess..........

I'm at a loss.

Negroponte = Nicaraugua = Iraq.

This is beyond the pale.

Why are we letting the criminals from Iran-Contra, pardoned by Bush I run this administration? I am so confused, flabbergasted, there just aren't enough words. Criminals, pardoned 15 years ago now run this administration, how did this happen?

[Mika]

66. Noriega's statements just unite the Cuban people behind their hero, Castro

This is why the US congress critters and US administrations posture with threatening statements like this, and then others posture with more normalization and trade.

US politicians need as many wedge issues for political pandering as they can get.. on both sides od the aisle. (Cuba politics in the US is a mixed bag of bipartisan pro and anti Cuba trade and relations. Some hard core, some softer stances.)

None of these buffoons really want to get rid of Castro. No Castro = no anti Cuba politicking dollars. No embargo = no anti embargo politicking.

Its all about pandering to BOTH sides of the issue - for political campaign cash, for both parties.

[BiggJawn]

68. Oh, just like we "Liberated" Haiti, right?

Let's see, now...We got Aristide out of bed in the middle of the night, loaded him on a plane with Colon Bowell's underlings, and jetted him into the night sky.

Then peace and prosperity just broke out all across the island, and it's become the numba wun vacation spot and the jewel of the Caribe's industrial crown....

What's that? They're still fighting there and there's no food and Colon shit himself on his last visit when the shooting started?

Uh....Why do you hate Murka so much?

[Mika]

70. Haitians who make it to Cuba are not deported back.

Like the US does.

[Judi Lynn]

74. Found something interesting. A Haitian-Cuban singing group

AS it appears you know, there has been another wave of Haitian immigrants going to Cuba for haven recently. Here's a brief look at Haitians in Cuba:

Cuba's "Haitianos"
Between 1795 and 1805 30,000 Haitians emigrated to eastern Cuba. Two more waves followed, 1920-1940 and the 1980's. Today, estimates of the Haitian population in Cuba range from 300,000 to 1 million. Each wave of emigrants had its own distinct characteristics and brought with them their strong music and dance traditions, religion and cultural habits on their journey from Haiti to Cuba.

Grupo Vocal Desandann
Grupo Vocal Desandann is an extraordinary Cuban vocal group of Haitian descent. The ensemble is composed mainly of second and third generation Haitians who were born and raised in Cuba, particularly in Camaguey. They preserve the rich cultural patrimony of their parents' and grandparents' birthplace through music. These artists execute with brilliance the most beautiful folkloric and popular songs of Haiti's yesteryears: the Haiti when Lumane Casimir, Haiti's most celebrated diva in the 1940s, was singing about the beauty of her country and who charmed the tourists with her sensational and magnificent voice. It was the Haiti when love was king.

Grupo Vocal Desandann, with it's unique Creole expression, is a revelation to its listeners. This Haitiano-Cuban musical group possesses a rich and varied repertoire. The nostalgic force of their music has caused some to shed tears. Listening to songs such as Gued» Nib¤, Haiti Ch»rie and Choucoune can give anyone Goosebumps. When they sing Lawouze or FÀy, which features a gay and explosive rustic rhythm called rabŽday, even the most timid people will jump to their feet.
(snip/...)

http://www.bembe.com/desandann/

I saw this group mentioned on a message board:

Serge Bellegarde - Chronique Musicale

Descendants

Two years ago, I had the pleasure of participating in a small discussion preceding a concert by a group called D E S A N D A N N. That was a most enjoyable and emotional moment. D E S A N D A N N is an acapella Cuban group made up of second and third generation Haitians. Between the period of 1791 to roughly the 1980's, many Haitians emigrated to Cuba, particularly in the Oriente Province, and their sons and daughters born there decided that they not only wanted to know the land of their ancestors, but they made it their mission to maintain Haitian culture alive in Cuba. This is "D E S A N D A N N". They are made up of ten young men and women led by the Maestra Emilia Díaz Chavez. Their CD is a real treat. The collection of songs presented is a rich panoramic view of Haitian culture: Wongolo, Guede Nibo, Maroule, Fèy, Choucoune, Haiti Chérie, Lumane Casimir, etc., 14 songs in all. I consider this CD a collector's item. The voices and the arrangements are superb. The group only uses some percussion instruments; the voices do all the rest. D E S A N D A N N only sings in Creole, to better preserve the authenticity of the culture. As Emilia Díaz Chavez told me, the Group's primary objective is to preserve Haitian culture in Cuba and to make it well known throughout the country. Believe me, listening to the group tells me that their mission is largely fulfilled. You will thoroughly enjoy this CD.




A message from Guy S. Antoine:

I saw this group perform in Camaguey, Cuba in November 2002 and a few days later in Havana. What a treat! I think that these Cubans appreciate their Haitian ancestry and culture to a level a great many Haitians born in Haiti have yet to recognize. D E S A N D A N N brought tears to my eyes. I never thought that a trip to Cuba would help me connect with the spirit of my land at a deeper level, but it did. D E S A N D A N N played a big role in that. I hope that all of you will be fortunate to see those young, beautiful, and spiritual Haitian-Cubans perform some day. If you ever felt really, really down about the country's fate, this could well be the cure you need.
(snip)

http://haitiforever.com/winterludes/desandann.html

Found a sample of their music. Check 1. Guédé Nibo - Grupo Vocal Desandann

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00004Y9TE/104-1235393-1087922?v=glance&vi=samples

Unbelievable, isn't it? I'm getting over to Amazon to buy their own CD. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00000JJSH/ref=pm_dp_ln_m_2/104-1235393-1087922?v=glance&s=music&vi=samples

Holy moly. Amazing.

[mattclearing]

71. Still fighting the Kennedys

after all these years. What a loser.

These Bushes sure can hold a grudge.

[aneerkoinos]

72. Not fighting Kennedys

The corporate fascism is fighting Cubans, fighting socialism, fighting we the people. Kennedy fought the same fight, only difference is that some realistic Democrats some times prefer to look bit further and are ready to make necessary minimum compromises with the people in order to prevent revolution.

[mattclearing]

75. Fair enough.

I agree with your basic premise. You seem to be saying that the parties are no different in this respect. You may be right, even though I would like to believe that the Democratic Party has better things to do these days than forcefully discourage the choice of communism in a sovereign nation.

I got the impression Kennedy was not willing to throw down the gauntlet for this, but the Bushes and the CIA usually have been. I think the philosophies are in opposition, even if they both seek to serve the corporate interests that you speak of.

[Deja Q]

73. Oh shit. I hope the recount works in Kerry's favor. Dunno how

Europe sees Cuba, but they won't like the idea of the US bulldozing other countries...

We've seen, after all, how we've dealt with liberating the Iraqi people.

[rhyfeddu]

77. We just watched "Fog of War"...

...the documentary about Robert McNamara...and if we understood him correctly - when he was discussing the Cuban Missile Crisis - he said that while the show-down at the time was to prevent the nuclear warheads arriving on the island to be attached to the exisiting rockets (do I have that right?), he found out much later, that Cuba already had nuclear bombs ready to go and capable of reaching the US (I forget whether that was on land, or in the water)....so that it was a much more dangerous pissing contest than they even realized at the time...

So, what makes us think they still don't have that capability? Does the US (officially) assume that Cuba doesn't currently have nuclear weapons?

Rattling your sabres at your neighbor who may have nukes, seems even more misguided than Bush's other arrogant displays of war-mongering.

[Judi Lynn]

79. Cuba has no powerful ally, as it did when RUSSIA moved the missiles

to the island. (Please do some READING.)

Any WMD there would be an invitation to suicide. They would be obliterated. The U.S. has minute maps of the entire island taken from satellites.

American military officers have been invited as far back as the 1990's to inspect the place, and they've done it.

February 13, 1996
Assessment on CubaA group of senior retired U.S. military and diplomatic officials have returned from a five day tour of Cuba (February 5-9) with observations of a nation slowly liberalizing its political and economic structures at the same time their shrinking military forces are assuming a new role.
Led by Rear Admiral Eugene Carroll, U.S. Navy (Ret.), now Deputy Director of the Center for Defense Information, and Ambassador Robert White, Director of the Center for International Policy, formerly U.S. Ambassador to El Salvador and Paraguay, the group visited a number of military facilities as well as the partially completed nuclear power plant at Juragua near Cienfuegos, Cuba. Other members were Major General Edward Atkeson, U.S. Army (Ret); Brigadier General William Lanagan, U.S. Marine Corps (Ret); Vice Admiral Ralph Weymouth, U.S. Navy (Ret); and Jack Mendelsohn, a retired foreign service officer, now Deputy Director of the Arms Control Association.


Hosted by the Chief of Staff of the Cuban military forces, General Rosales del Toro, the group was given full access to active military bases and schools as well as sites formerly occupied by Soviet forces during the Cold War. A major conclusion is that Cuba is finally beginning to recover from the severe dislocations suffered when the Soviet Union suddenly withdrew its military and economic support in 1992. This recovery has been aided by considerable relaxation of previous restrictions on private enterprise within Cuba and by inviting foreign investors to participate in joint economic ventures, particularly in tourism and mining. Farmers' markets are flourishing and small family businesses are springing up everywhere.

The Cuban military budget is now down to $600,000,000 annually (less than the U.S. spends in one day) and numbers approximately 150,000 active troops (10% of U.S. strength). More importantly, about 60,000 of these troops are young conscripts who are assigned to Youth Army units primarily engaged in running farms and construction tasks. Overall, the Army now produces between 20 and 25% of Cuban food supplies. The Army is actively engaged through GAVIOTA, the official Cuban tourist agency, in building hotels.

Because of reduced funds and shortage of spare parts, the Cuban armed forces have put much of their aging Soviet supplied weaponry into storage and it engages in very few significant military exercises. The acute shortage of petroleum means that even frontline pilots fly their obsolescent Soviet aircraft fewer than 100 hours per year, too little to maintain full readiness for combat.
(snip)

Admiral Carroll summed up the group's observations: "There is nothing going on in Cuba today which poses any threat to the security interests of the United States in military, political or nuclear terms. General Rosales del Toro stressed over and over again that Cuba stands ready to discuss any and all issues with United States representatives on the basis of mutual interests and mutual respect. He invited active members of the U.S. military to come to Cuba for such discussions."

For further information on specific issues or details, contact:


Rear Admiral Carroll, CDI (202)-862-0700
Ambassador Robert White, CIP [phone]
Mr. Jack Mendelsohn, ACA [phone]

http://www.cdi.org/issues/cuba/cubatrip.html

[rhyfeddu]

80. Look, I wasn't claiming to know the current situation...

with Cuba, OR grasping all the facts of their past...that's why I was ASKING.

I appreciate the info, really, but could do without the condescension.

And I wasn't, for one minute, implying that, even if Cuba HAD any WMD, that it would justify Bush and co. to invade, intrude, interfere, or look cross-eyed at them. If Bush wants to disarm WMD, he can start with the obscene amount WE have...

I was merely pointing out the (EXTRA) madness of nations posturing, when nukes (could possibly) be involved.

I am not demonizing Cuba. I try not to demonize anyone. Except maybe people who try to make others feel stupid for asking a question. :eyes:

[aneerkoinos]

81. Allies

I don't think we should underestimate the power of Chavez and the use of Venezualan oil as weapon. It is allready effectively used to undermine US influence in LA and deny asylum to some of the coupster elsewhere than Miami. Nor should we underestimate the popular opinion of the world. Note also PM of Spain working very hard to get over the disputes between Cuba and EU.

If there's somebody that is running increasingly low on allies, it is US. Let us not be intimidated by an Emperor with no clothes, by a Giant with feet of clay... ;)

[Judi Lynn]

82. That sounds hopeful..... So glad for Spain's wisdom in choosing Zapatero

I found this interesting photoessay earlier, which you might find worth checking: a summit in Bolivia of 21 Presidents. It's downright interesting:

http://www.salonchingon.com/exhibits/cumbre2003/index2.php?city=ny

(There are 40 images, each one too large for someone who can't change sizes on photos to post on this thread. They're whoppers.)

[IndianaGreen]

84. Is it okay for the US to deploy nukes in England while USSR could not

deploy them in Cuba? Isn't that the typical American double standard of demanding that all the countries abandon nukes while the US, and our bloody ally Israel, keeps theirs?

The Cold War was a sham and a fraud. The only dangerous country was the US!

[rhyfeddu]

86. Some assumptions are being jumped at here...

...Please see my response #80 above ("Look..")

NEVER did I say, or mean to imply, that Cuba was/is a deserving target! Or that the US isn't hypocritical to the extreme about WMD.

I swear, it isn't safe to have low post no.#'s around here - makes me wonder how anybody makes it long enuf to get "beyond suspicion"...

But, BTW, to say the US was the ONLY dangerous country is as nutty. ANY country with WMD who are willing to use it is insane, in my book, no matter what "side" they're on...

[IndianaGreen]

88. It is US policy to launch nukes preemptively against any country

even a country without nukes.

The problem lies within our country!

[rhyfeddu]

109. Maybe we're just arguing semantics here...

...but saying we're "the" problem or "the" danger, is still saying we're the only danger. There are too many war mongering leaders/people out there, too many dangerous weapons (are there any other kind?) in existence, to say that.

Where I think we can agree, is that we're certainly the BIGGEST danger to world peace and security, because of our appalling arsenal and apparent jones-on to use it (esp., but not only, with this lot in power now). Add to that "our" supposed entitlement to dictate to anyone and everyone how they should live - its a pretty scary mix.

Peace

[Darranar]

78. By worsening life for them through enacting harsher restrictions? n/t

[Piperay]

106. Cuba another place

for corporations to market their crap. x(

[Az_lefty]

110. Never happen. Cuba doesn't have any oil

[Gloria]

111. Ah, but there IS oil offshore and Europe is already nosing around....

The US plans to "privatize" everything on this island of 11 million, including their health care. The "no visitors" policy is bigger than that....it's part of a huge document that basically details how corporations will take over Cuba's life.....I listen to Radio Havana and they read sections of this document and it is really pretty miserable....

[Judi Lynn]

120. That's so amazing, knowing Cubans have already read the plans Bush has

made for the complete destruction of their government, knowing he plans to hand THEIR COUNTRY over to corporate interests, just as in cutting up a big, gooey pie and handing it around to his slimey, bloodthirsty friends.

God help them. Surely not every evil _Bush plan will not be fully inflicted upon the world. I pray his designs on Cuba will fail. Cubans have worked so hard to get out of the hell they were in under U.S. bondage, with the butcher Batista.

The whole world outside our Republican empire respects the progress Cuba has made, including the World Bank.

[Mika]

122. Americans would respect Cuba for the gains made, post Batista

IF we could go there easily to see for ourselves just how Cubans live and work together.

IF

[JohnLocke]

112. Kick (nt).