FBI probe may involve more than vote fraud allegations

[clem_c_rock]

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/metroeast/story/4E54CC8E9062C29C86256F600070D230?OpenDocument&Headline=FBI%20probe%20may%20involve%20more%20than%20vote%20fraud%20allegations


Formally, the feds are not talking. East St. Louis precinct committeemen who were subpoenaed to appear before a grand jury 2 1/2 weeks ago say the investigation centers on voter fraud during the Nov. 2 election. The search warrant used to raid City Hall five days after the grand jury convened supports that but also indicates that the case is bigger than allegations of paying for votes or counting ballots from people who have died or are otherwise not qualified to vote.....

[nashville_brook]

1. woo hoo, and welcome to DU

[clem_c_rock]

2. thanks - this rocks!

[Francine Frensky]

34. Wait a minute, east st. louis means this is anti-dem

this sounds to me like a fishing expedition in democratic precincts to try and distract from any problems that are ever found with republican cheating (and my guess is we'll never find any evidence; those guys are top-notch crooks).

[Sara Beverley]

35. Why wouldn't FBI join Ohio recount probe? This looks to be against Dems

Thousands of African-Americans can be disenfranchised without so much as a peep from the FBI, yet as soon as people living in a boarding house vote with the same address, it becomes a Federal case? Go figure :shrug:

[BrendaStarr]

40. Well said, This is just the beginning, I'm sure.

With housing prices skyrocketing (at least where I live. I assume its the same everywhere--They told us it was because so many people were moving here and then 6 months later we read that 1 million people have left the state.) You can figure that lots of families are having to live with other families.

What a way to disenfranchise the poor by regulating how many registrations can come from each size dwelling.

Or forget regulating, how about just harassing and intimidating people in minority areas over voting. Giving veiled suggestions that if there are too many people registered per household then people will be going to jail.

Like you said, they should be checking out other states--News reporters found a lot of people voting in both Ohio and Florida in 2000, and those are the only two states they cross-checked.

[stepnw1f]

3. Welcome to DU

and thank you for the post. Interesting how they are sooo quick to investigate Fraud when a Dem is involved. Taxation without Representation. I want full investigations into the Republican Party NOW!

[Quakerfriend]

4. Hey

I thought I had heard on another thread that they were investigating the Dems. True or not??

Oh, and welcome to DU!

[burn the bush]

12. yes, i think this is against the dems

[ElsewheresDaughter]

32. of course it is all bush* people have been put in place since 2001.....

move along...you won't get any truth or justice from any gov't agencies under bush ...get on with surviving as best you can...

Dylan

You must leave now, take what you need, you think will last
But whatever you wish to keep, you better grab it fast
Yonder stands your orphan with his gun
Crying like a fire in the sun
Look out the saints are comin' through
And it's all over now, Baby Blue

The highway is for gamblers, better use your sense
Take what you have gathered from coincidence
The empty-handed painter from your streets
Is drawing crazy patterns on your sheets
The sky, too, is folding under you
And it's all over now, Baby Blue

All your seasick sailors, they are rowing home
All your reindeer armies are all going home
The lover who just walked out your door
Has taken all his blankets from the floor
The carpet, too, is moving under you
And it's all over now, Baby Blue

Leave your stepping stones behind, something calls for you
Forget the dead you've left, they will not follow you
The vagabond who's rapping at your door
Is standing in the clothes that you once wore
Strike another match, go start anew
And it's all over now, Baby Blue

[acmavm]

13. Sounds like it.

<snip>

first talk of voter fraud came Oct. 29 at a news conference in East St. Louis by Illinois Treasurer Judy Baar Topinka, chairwoman of the state's Republican Party. She listed several examples of questionable voting practices, including 30 people voting from one address that turned out to be a boarding house. She called on federal authorities to "take the necessary steps to ensure a free and fair election." East St. Louis votes overwhelmingly Democratic.

<snip>

The St. Clair County Democratic Committee distributes to committeemen money for get-out-the-vote efforts. The money can be used to finance door-to-door canvassing, to run telephone banks or to print campaign literature. It also can be used to reimburse committeemen for out-of-pocket expenses, which could include delivering food to the elderly. But the money cannot be offered to persuade someone to vote.

State election records show that $42,000 of county committee funds went to East St. Louis between Jan. 1 and June 30. But the bulk of money usually goes out a few weeks before an election. Financial records for the Nov. 2 election are not due until late next month.
-MORE-

[Cobalt Violet]

True.

:( I haven't heard that they are going to investigate ANY of the Repug fraud.

[Cobalt Violet]

16. True.

:( I haven't heard that they are going to investigate ANY of the Repug fraud.

[stepnw1f]

19. Ummm... That's what I was pointing out.

[clydefrand]

5. This article was discussed yesterday.

[clem_c_rock]

6. damn - I checked earlier post and didn't see it

Sorry

[Carl Brennan]

9. Hard to get the "scoop" around here. Welcome nt

[ooglymoogly]

7. it appears to me if they are investigating anything connected to

vote fraud it is the suggestion of democratic fraud. the attorney gen is a republican. how does this bode well for us. am i missing something. do i read this all wrong.

[Ima]

15. Well

I'm reading this just like you are. I hope we are wrong. It looks to me, like they think there was fraud committed against a Repub in ESL.


It could totally discount, the Dem's wanting fairness in the Pres. election.

[Ima]

17. Fire!

http://216.239.63.104/search?q=cache:Us4HlpxoiaMJ:www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/special/srlinks.nsf/0/7C10A41AB065E63286256F02007A95DA%3FOpenDocument+Kelvin+Ellis&hl=en

EAST ST. LOUIS

ESL mayor thinks fire was arson set by foes

East St. Louis Mayor Carl E. Officer says a fire Tuesday afternoon that destroyed a shuttered car dealership and damaged his campaign headquarters next door was probably set to convince the mayor not to pursue efforts to change city government

Officer, who is leading an attempt to abolish the city manager form of government and give more power to the mayor, was to have met with supporters Tuesday night at the largely vacant building at 722 St. Louis Avenue. The building houses Veterans Advocates Inc., which provides clothing, food and support services.

Officer called the fire "a very suspicious coincidence." When asked to explain, Officer said that earlier that day, he and others who support changing to a strong mayor form of government completed gathering the 2,000 signatures necessary to get a referendum on the Nov. 2 ballot.

Later in the day, opponents of the change, led by Kelvin Ellis, the city's director of regulatory affairs, filed a lawsuit in St. Clair County Circuit Court in Belleville to throw out the petitions, claiming the signatures were gathered without proper paperwork. The city had changed to a manager form of government in 1990 in an effort to reduce the power of Officer, who first served as mayor from 1979-1991

[Boredtodeath]

8. Report from International Observers- FEI

ST. LOUIS CITY AND ST. LOUIS COUNTY:
Election observation in St. Louis City must take into account the context of the 2000 presidential election in which confusion over inactive voter lists created serious problems and effectively prevented thousands of citizens from voting. In comparison to the widespread disenfranchisement of voters in the 2000 elections, the process of voting in St. Louis city in 2004 was greatly improved.

Many of the remedies devised to forestall confusion functioned as planned. Nevertheless, the delegation observed lines up to three hours long throughout the day at many of the polling locations, primarily located in poorer African-American areas. In light of these long delays, the observers recommend preferential treatment be given to enable the elderly and disabled to vote.

The observers noted a number of other serious flaws that merit ongoing attention, including: Inadequate preparation of poll judges and poll workers; identification requirements that go beyond HAVA (if voters did not have identification at the time of voting, their votes were not counted); significant manual handling of ballots at polling stations in an unsecured manner (including tipping ballots out of the ballot boxes onto tables and allowing them to spill onto the floor before putting them into another box to be taken to the Election Commission office); the manual replication of ballots determined by Election Commission officials to have been inadvertently cast on the incorrect ballot; and the presence of unauthorized persons, including armed police, at polling locations. Additionally, the delegation noted that polling stations appeared to be illogically resourced: in some locations containing more than one polling location long lines formed in front of polling stations where judges struggled to service more than 1000 registered voters; while across the room, the same number of judges were available to assist a precinct consisting of less than three city blocks and containing many fewer voters with no lines.

Additionally, polling locations in wealthier neighborhoods appeared to have been supplied with greater human and material resources than those in low-income neighborhoods where voter wait-times were consistently longer.

Due to the openness and transparency of St. Louis City voting officials, the delegation was able to observe both poll worker trainings as well as the execution of their tasks. The delegation found that the trainings were too brief to adequately cover the materials presented and that the sessions would have been greatly enhanced by including simulations and other practical exercises. Discussions with poll judges on Election Day confirmed the observers’ conclusions that some judges felt ill prepared for the challenges they faced.

Many of the irregularities witnessed by the observers were not necessarily systemic, but were the result of poor poll worker training. These include: the late opening of a polling location; voters being misinformed by poll judges as to whether their votes would count if they voted at a place other than their correct polling location; and one voter being misinformed by poll workers as to her correct polling station, only to find her correct polling location after closing time.

Observers noted cases in which Specialist (election) Judges provided incorrect information and failed to consistently follow counting procedures designed to track the issuance of ballots. In another instance one of the elections Supervisors effectively halted voting for 30 minutes while addressing a problem in that polling location. In several cases, the delegation witnessed officials improvising solutions. While the delegation admires the “can do” spirit of these officials, voter confidence is enhanced when judges clearly understand regulations and can apply them consistently.

Observers noted the presence of unauthorized persons in some polling locations and inconsistency about who was allowed to enter. Indeed, the response the observers themselves received by poll workers varied markedly, from not responding to the presence of the observers, to requesting the observers to sign a register, to requesting the observers to swear an oath. The lack of consistency in dealing with the delegation was symptomatic of a broader uncertainty among poll workers about their role in ensuring that only authorized individuals were present in the voting area. The delegation observed one instance of an unauthorized individual within the polling location who was seeking to challenge voters’ credentials on behalf of the Republican Party, but who hastily departed when questioned. In some polling locations the delegation observed voters engaging in ‘group voting,’ where more than one eligible voter was present at a voting station at a particular time. In other voting sites, police officers overstepped their legal role, limited to delivering and collecting ballot boxes and escorting election officials, by remaining inside polling locations for hours, handling ballots, and giving incorrect information and orders without consulting poll officials. The delegation also observed police officers at polling locations standing very close to voting mechanisms while handling their firearms, which may have been intimidating to voters.
http://www.fairelection.us/fairelectionreport.pdf

much, much more at the above link

[The Flaming Red Head]

18. That report and the incident reports on their websites aren't in agreement

You know a post-election audit would not detect manipulation of 5.5% of the ballots, allowing a swing of 11% of the vote.

[Judi Lynn]

10. It will be interesting seeing what the findings are.

The article says East St. Louis is predominantly Democratic. Looks like a Republican-initiated inquiry.

Anyone knows Republicans are the fiends in our gummint. It would be great seeing Democrats get a clean bill of health here.

Welcome to DU, clem_c_rock. :hi: :hi:

[clem_c_rock]

14. That's what I was posting it for

It looks like good ammo against the Ohio recount. So far I haven't heard it being used against the Dems.

Clem C

[Lostnote03]

11. Hmmmm???

.......Why am I reminded of Martha Stewart and Ken Lay???

[Niche]

20. If voters all live in a boarding house why is that illegal?

I'm lost. Don't those people have a right to vote too?

[Willy Lee]

38. They say that there were 10 or so people registerd at the same address.

Then the repugs cry "vote fraud". Of course only when it suits them.

[NVMojo]

21. interesting in light of this other DU story on the FBI ...

http://www.wbai.org/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=4340&Itemid=2

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x115996

[ElsewheresDaughter]

30. hmmmmmmm?

[Nothing Without Hope]

22. Bound to be against the Dems - Rovian logic

This administration runs all the branches of the "democratic" government, and the FBI is NOT going to be going after Republican-run fraud. Remember, Rove is famous for using the technique of attacking victims where they are strongest, and the other members of the cartel have payed attention.
Think: attacking Kerry's military record and Cleland's patriotism.
Think: Rathergate on the Bush II military service disgrace
Then Think: whipping up public disgust over Democratic "election fraud."

Would be verrrrrry typical. If they think the major media are beginning to scent a story on the election fraud, they will do something to steal the story and make it radioactive.

In the runup to the election, the same few stories about singleton fraudsters theoretically upping the Democratic vote tallies by ones or twos were in the talking points of every Republican spokesperson. Lots of loud wailing about the awfulness of those sneaky un-moral Democrats. Meanwhile, fraud in the thousands, done by the Republicans, was already being reported and was whisked under the rug. After all, they're on the side of the angels, right? Just ask them.

[shuffnew]

26. You are correct about the FBI and who they support...

Just do a global search on words "FBI" and "Fraud" and see how many hits you get. Add in the word voter to the search criteria. See how many of these so-called investigations on anything to do with fraud come back to being against repugs. NOT!

I would not be surprised if the whole idea of these "raids" are to get the systems they know they tampered with and want to get them out of circulation before someone else does... in the name of investigating a "democrat voter fraud" collect all the hardware and software to CYA.

[Nothing Without Hope]

36. Excellent point - an excuse to grab the evidence

The poor Republicans! Unlike 2000, there's not a suit by the "losing" Democratic candidate, so they can't just stonewall everything in a court battle and let their pet Supremes fix it. But if THEY are bringing the charges, they can still grab any surviving evidence and sequester or destroy it.

[Hephaistos]

28. Totally agree

Good analysis.

Then Think: whipping up public disgust over Democratic "election fraud."

Would be verrrrrry typical. If they think the major media are beginning to scent a story on the election fraud, they will do something to steal the story and make it radioactive.

In the runup to the election, the same few stories about singleton fraudsters theoretically upping the Democratic vote tallies by ones or twos were in the talking points of every Republican spokesperson.

This is soooo straight outta Rove's playbook. I'd bet they can even bring out some staged example of a Dem hacker manipulating voting machines if the recounts start catching some major mischief.

[bklyncowgirl]

29. Innoculation for Bush. Dems do it too.

Let's face it, the Democrats, especially at the local levels in urban areas have been known to stuff a ballot box or two. I have a feeling that e-voting was a dream come true for some local politicians.

If anything comes out about a Republican fix of the presidential election, the theme du jour will be "They all do it." as if fixing a mayor's race in East St. Louis was the same as fixing the presidential race.

My guess is one reason that the Dems haven't been too hot on going after this vote fraud thing because they know damn well some of their people are dirty on the piddling local level. The main difference with the republicans is that they think big.

Like Bob Dylan said.

You know patriotism is the last refuge
to which a scoundrel clings.
Steal a little and they'll throw you in jail.
Steal alot and they'll make you king.

The Democrats have to become the party of reform or cease to exist.

[joeunderdog]

39. Voter fraud from Dems is a blemish that helps the Paper Trail cause.

Verifiable, transparent voting is without question a bi-partisan concern--that is our biggest selling point. It's a vote for Democracy, not Democrats.

The method and the people behind it should be fully investigated. Any proof of computer voting fraud should be pursued and prosecuted at every level.

[dargondogon]

23. This is certainly targeting Dems

Any allegations in St. Louis are probably targeting Dems. The FBI is under Bush's control, and it's not going to probe any of the vote fraud techniques the GOP uses, such as suppression or electronic cheating. It's going to go after the Democrats, accusing them of having dead people vote.

[KaryninMiami]

24. Here in Florida dead people have been voting for years..

What can I say? It is the Banana republic down here in many ways. But there is little chance that regardless of what the Repugs do to try to demonstrate fraud on the Democratic side, they have a lot of catching up to do in a very short amount of time. Besides, if they do start to find lots of actual problems with the voting, it gives US MORE REASON TO DEMAND AN INVESTIGATION. We can even make ths backfire if we need to- think of it! Now we'll have both sides screaming for a re-vote! (I am smiling at the thought of it!)

Just remember friends, this is a non-partisan issue. Voting Rights are protected by our constiution. This is about our Democracy.

[shuffnew]

27. But in the meantime they have collected the h/w & s/w... and...

a real investigation with valid (original data) may be corrupted and gone.

When the FBI starts grabbing systems who knows what condition the h/w & s/w will be in before there is any REAL investigation (if any).

Any honest FBI agents left are likely not the ones in control of any investigations that could implicate the Republicans. (IMHO anyway)

[dargondogon]

33. It would be good to find cases where e-voting or suppression hurt Repubs

and promote those cases to increase bipartisan interest in these issues. Surely there were outraged Repubs in some of those long ohio lines whose voting rights were denied.

[Tight_rope]

25. Hell Yeah!....Keep probing your find lots more dirty deals!

[Pharaoh]

31. Sign this petition!

http://www.stolenelection2004.com/alerts.html#kerry

and please someone start this as a new thread as I am unable to post...

[Willy Lee]

37. I live near E St. Louis- this is an attack on Dems

And this is definitely Repugs raising a stink about election fraud. East St. Louis is predominantly black, and repugs have been whining about all the vote fraud the poor East St. Louisans have committed in order to gain more votes.

[ChicanoPwr]

42. Not really

It sounds like what happened in East St. Louis is the same thing that happened in a County in South Texas. Cameron County is predominatly Hispanic, it has voted Democratic for a long time. But this time, it went for B*, although B* won by a few votes, it does look very strange. When you look at it very closely, every Dem State Rep won their election and they won by a large amount, yet Bush won. So, if the Repugs have been whinning in East St Louis, it's probably safe to say the repugs are beginning to do the same thing as they did here.

[CoffeeCat]

41. Could the election-fraud perpetrators have created some Dem fraud?

I'm new here, but I am wondering something.

Obviously, Republicans stole this election by hacking, suppression and other means.

I am wondering if the hackers who rigged the computers may have also hacked some fraud that makes the Dems look bad--just to create confusion?

This "Dem fraud" was found in Missouri--a red state that was tipping heavily for Bush. There would be no loss, on the part of the Republican hucksters--if they were to give a few counties to the Dems, in a state that the Dems could not possibly win.

I find this incredibly fishy. Why has the FBI honed in on these obscure instances in Missouri? Why have they acted so quickly and so aggressively? This is the first instance of computer confiscation and tearing into offices to which I'm privy. Meanwhile, there are hundreds of other--more obvious and widely known--instances of voter fraud, computer anomalies and suppression. The FBI has done little or nothing.

I smell a rat. A big one.

I imagine that whoever rigged this election--also incorporated a few programs that give the Dems more votes--to throw people off of the real story and to create confusion.

This is the Republican plan that was set to kick in, if the Dems discovered fraud and fought back.

[Ima]

43. Welcome TwoSparkles!

Thought provoking post.