US Marine claims unit killed Iraqi civilians as deserter seeks asylum

[NNN0LHI]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041207/pl_afp/canada_us_iraq_deserter&cid=1521&ncid=1478

TORONTO (AFP) - A former US Marine said his unit killed more than 30 innocent Iraqi civilians in just two days, in graphic testimony to a Canadian tribunal probing an asylum claim by a US army deserter.

Marine Sergeant Jimmy Massey appeared as a witness to bolster claims by fugitive paratrooper Jeremy Hinzman, that he walked out on the 82nd Airborne Division to avoid being ordered to commit war crimes in Iraq.

Hinzman, 26, claims he would face persecution if sent home to the United States, in a politically charged case which could set a precedent for at least two other US deserters seeking asylum in Canada.

Massey told Canada's Immigration and Refugee Board (IRB) that men under his command in the 3rd battalion, Seventh Marines, killed "30 plus" civilians within 48 hours while on checkpoint duty in Baghdad.

"I do know that we killed innocent civilians," Massey told the tribunal, relating the chaotic days after the US-led invasion of Iraq in March 2003.

more

[qanda]

1. Oh good gracious

How truly sad!

[saigon68]

61. Here's a photo (graphic)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/041210/photos_wl_me_afp/041210033703_u0vlufdp_photo0

A stray dog feeds on an Iraqi corpse. US Marines are now hunting down stray animals grown fat on the flesh from corpses and which could harbor rabies(AFP/File/Cris Bouroncle)

[gratuitous]

2. Wouldn't it be nice . . .

If we could get some pointed questions about these allegations asked of our fearless leaders, and answers demanded? But of course, now that Bush has his man date, questioning der fuehrer and his policies is strictly verboten. Not that the ruling class press were ever very interested in questioning Chimpy prior to this.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

3. why does he hate america

why does he lie and say that his fellow marines commit atrocities as though they are widespread? why does he provide aid and comfort to the enemy? traitor!

/knuckledragging freep mode off/

[KingChicken]

4. There is no flood gate for asylum seekers, there are only a handful

I really hope this guy can stay in Canada, I know they would put him on a pedestal over here. I'll grant him asylum at my house, but unfortunately I’m under U.S. jurisdiction.

There is no flood gate for asylum seekers, there are only a handful

[Liberty Belle]

17. Wrong. See the 60 Minutes thread-5,500 deserters so far.

[saving daylight]

29. 5,000 is not a high number compared to total military or WW II

The desertion figures by fiscal year were: 1995, 1,509; 1996, 1,825; 1997, 2,313; 1998, 2,600; 1999, 3,119; 2000, 4,198, and 2001, 4,739.

More importantly, the total number of soldiers that deserted during World War II was 27,512.

[NickB79]

30. In WWII

We fielded over 3 MILLION troops into combat, vs. ~200,000 troops in combat now (Iraq and Afghanistan). Percentage-wise, that means ~0.9% of all troops in WWII deserted, while we're seeing ~2.75% of troops deserting today. Almost 3 times as many troops are deserting now compared to WWII combat.

Comparing the 5500 deserters today vs. 27,500 in WWII, without any context for total number of soldiers sent into combat, and proclaiming our numbers "not high" is at best naive.

[saving daylight]

31. 5,500 vs 600,000 in the armed forces is .83%, (not news)

Something like 5,500 against 600,000 in the armed forces is a desertion rate of .8%, near the same rate as your 3 million in WW 2.

Hate to disagree with you, but I have faith in our military men & women and nothing but the highest regard for them.

[Dhalgren]

33. A soldier who deserts from an army committing crimes

is a soldier to be proud of - regardless of the numbers.


U.S. Army 1972-75

[saving daylight]

34. so did you desert?

why or why not?

[Dhalgren]

36. Honestly, at the time, I didn't have the courage...

[saving daylight]

35. ww 2 deserters

I wonder if that is why 25,000 deserted our Armed Forces in WW 2: because they thought WE were the BAD GUYS or they just decided they would not fight for democracy & liberty of others.

I guess France is darned lucky our desertion rate was not as high as theirs.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Just Me]

45. You're assuming "democracy & liberty of others".

You're forgetting PRESCOTT BUSH & CO FUNDED NAZI PURSUITS!!!

NEVER FORGET THOSE WHO FUNDED DEATH,...WHO FUNDED AND PROFITTED,...WHO PROFIT THIS VERY DAY OFF THE BLOOD AND TREASURE OF THE "GOOD WILL" OF HUMAN BEINGS!!!

Otherwise,...you're just another pawn in political spawn.

On Edit: there is nothing, nothing more painful than betrayal,...but, most fall into that pit because they refused to remove themselves from their own self-interests.

[merh]

42. Your WWII figures mean crap - When did this "war" begin

and what day is it?

I support our troops, that is why the truth about the atrocities they are ordered to commit must come out. Discussing this does not damn the troops, it damns the evil folks that are leading them, that sent them to Iraq and that are f*cking our nation!

If you had faith and regard for the military, then you would care about the horrors they are subjected to and the horrors they are ordered to commit in our name! :argh:

[ooglymoogly]

51. here here and herruuuph and indeed

[merh]

53. Yes, your point?

Since my post is not a reply to your post, I am assuming you do have a point. What is it?

[ooglymoogly]

54. just a pretentious way of agreeing with your post to

saving daylight, a second if you will

[merh]

55. ooglymoogly

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[ooglymoogly]

56. thank you...my first welcom

[merh]

57. I love the name by the way!

ooglymoogly - sounds like it is from the jungle book!

Damn glad to greet ya! :toast:

[NickB79]

59. I'm not comparing total troops currently in the armed forces

I compared the number of soldiers in WWII who saw ACTIVE DUTY in combat, vs. the number of soldiers in the past 3 yrs who have seen ACTIVE DUTY in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan. If you want to compare stats using your methodology, check out this link: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004615.html.

Notice that, under the WWII section, it lists a total of 16 MILLION US men and women served in WWII over the course of 5 years. 25,000 of 16 million is a desertation rate of 0.156%. There are currently 1.4 million US servicemen and women total in the US armed forces. That gives a 0.393% desertion rate for current military, three times higher than in WWII. Even using your method of comparison, we are still seeing significantly higher desertion rates today than we saw in WWII.

[Brundle_Fly]

60. WWII was a fight to be proud to take part of...scary, but needed evil

Really fighting tyranny, and an enemy attacking allies, it made sense.

This BS conflict, pre-emption, what the fuck is that, it is called INVASION, there has been no reason given to the American public as to why we did this, that comes close to acceptable.

I imagine we'll never get the facts about how many have deserted, or are in military custody, from this group of clodhopper's.

Remember in WWII these were drafted individuals, deserting might have many more reasons, sick parent, conscientious objection, etc...

This is an all volunteer army. They signed a contract to do this, a real comparison would be to see how many volunteer's in WWII deserted, and there you will have a percentage to challenge this current figure...

5500 seems low to me as well. more disinformation.

[Just Me]

44. Isn't it fascinating that, as the "Reds" took control, desertion increased

Now that the "Reds" have nearly total control,...watch an interesting exponential decrease in "voluntary" force!!!

I say,...ALL "REDS" SERVE FIRST WITHOUT ANY QUALIFICATION!!!!

:bounce:

Whaddya' say!!!

Let's make it a constitutional amendment that all those voting for either war or a draft MUST serve WITHOUT QUALIFICATION,...including members of the congress without any gender discrimination within their families.

LET'S GET SERIOUS!!!

LET'S WAGE ALL OUT WAR!!!!

[ooglymoogly]

50. watch out saving daylight

there are some real no's crunchers on du and they have got the goods.

[bluestateguy]

5. I'm not optimistic that these guys will get asylum

I think Canada may fear the flood gates opening if they give it to them. Is there any groundswell of support for them in Canada? Not any that I see.

[NNN0LHI]

6. This testimony should not be in Canada. It should be at Congress in DC n/t

[maddezmom]

7. agree, but he'd be among the missing if he even tried it

:eyes:

[gottaB]

24. right on

[NNN0LHI]

8. Doesn't CNN, MSNBC, FOX, CBS, ABC, or NBC have a spare reporter...

...to send to cover this case? They must all be camped out in front of MJ, Kobe, and Scott's courtroom waiting for their next breathless report from there? I just can't wait. Our media really blows.

Don

[NYC Liberal]

9. Gee, I hope he never runs for president.

Because, apparently, telling the truth about war crimes is treasonous.

[lakeguy]

10. i rated it a 5, even though it's a depressing story...

[DrWeird]

11. No surprise.

The US slaughters over 150 innocent civilians per day, on average.

[MaroonVette]

19. Where did you get those numbers?

Is there any proof or confirmation of this charge?

[Dhalgren]

32. The "low-ball" estimate of civilian deaths in Iraq

since the beginning of the slaughter there is 100,000+. If you divide that number by the number of days (around 644) that the slaughter has been ongoing, you get 150+ per day of innocent civilians killed by their heroic US liberators. Makes you feel proud, doesn't it?

[MaroonVette]

39. Sans pride

Where does the 100,000+ number come from? I can do the math but I'd like to know the source of the main operand.

[ima_sinnic]

43. here are a couple of links

Iraqi Civilian Deaths Increase Dramatically After Invasion
John Hopkins, Bloomberg School of Public Health
Public Health News Center
October 28, 2004
http://www.jhsph.edu/PublicHealthNews/Press_Releases/PR_2004/Burnham_Iraq.html

Media Lens Alert: 100,000 IRAQI CIVILIAN DEATHS, part I
Nov. 2, 2004
http://www.medialens.org/alerts/2004/041102_Iraqi_Civilian_Deaths_1.HTM
(concerned mostly with the fact that coverage of this has been zilch by the U.S. media)

[ignatius 2]

12. What a mess the dimwit commander in chief has caused? How screwed up

mentally will many of these kids be? I bet most of them are good kids, following fucked up orders and if they don't follow them they will be up shit creek without a paddle or more like without a gun. Forcing these kids to go against the rules of the Geneva convention and the rules of humanity is disgusting and criminal. But, as we know, if the soldiers are forced to answer for following orders, there will be NO higher ups backing them up..why, why on earth would our glorious leaders hang with a couple of "bad apples?"

Our leaders are gutless cowards who force the troops to commit crimes then run and hide behind their layers of command. I hope and pray each and every day that this administration is outed with irreputable proof of war crimes and mass murder and spend the rest of their chickenshit lives on this earth in a Gitmo like place of hell on earth.

[Supersedeas]

23. maybe now that campaign is over, the US Media will clue the clueless in

but that's still doubtful

[ooglymoogly]

52. ha ha i laugh at this funny joke

[Just Me]

13. I sincerely do hope they grant him asylum.

At least until the current US regime is removed or replaced.

[NNN0LHI]

14. I don't know why he didn't just find some Republicans campaign to work for?

Hey, it worked for Bush. Saved his cowardly ass from having to see combat in Vietnam. Why not this kid? Whats good for the goose...

Don

[VegasWolf]

15. Hey, somebody's gotta go get the oil! n/t

[NNN0LHI]

16. Saddam was selling all we needed to us before the invasion

Oil was about $30-$35 bucks a barrel back then. Gas was about a buck ten a gallon.

Don

[NNN0LHI]

18. This seems to be hitting some US news outlets now

http://news.google.com/news?ned=tus&hl=en&ncl=http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/73A4FF53-81F7-4FA0-B02B-3681C801F778.htm

[MaroonVette]

20. Hard to confirm such a charge

I'm sure the rest of his unit will have a different version of the story. It's tough to appear credible when one deserts and the rest of the crew tells another story.

[Just Me]

21. I've seen no evidence of any of your assertions.

I tend to believe him,...unless there is direct evidence pertaining to his story or his credibility.

[MaroonVette]

22. I didn't say he was not telling the truth

My point is the perception in the general populace of a deserter going up against his entire unit with his word against theirs.

[Bridget Burke]

25. The allegations were not made by the deserter.

Jeremy Hinzman is seeking asylum. Jimmy Massey--honorably discharged from the Marines after 12 years--gave the testimony

A former US Marine said his unit killed more than 30 innocent Iraqi civilians in just two days, in graphic testimony to a Canadian tribunal probing an asylum claim by a US army deserter.

Marine Sergeant Jimmy Massey appeared as a witness to bolster claims by fugitive paratrooper Jeremy Hinzman that he walked out on the 82nd Airborne Division to avoid being ordered to commit war crimes in Iraq....

"I was never clear on who was the enemy and who was not," said Massey.

"When you don't know who the enemy is, what are you doing there?" asked the 12-year Marine, later honorably discharged from the service with severe depression and post traumatic stress disorder.

Reading is a useful skill.

[MaroonVette]

40. I see that now

Last night I had to close one eye just to see double.

[JohnyCanuck]

28. It was not the deserter describing the atrocities.

The peron giving eyewitness testimony re. US atrocities at the hearing in support of the refugee claimant (i.e. the deserter) was an ex US Marine Corps sergeant with an honorable discharge.

When American military deserter Jeremy Hinzman appears at his refugee hearing tomorrow, seeking asylum in Canada because he does not want to fight in Iraq, the AWOL soldier will not be alone.

Beside him will be Jimmy Massey, a former gung-ho Marine staff sergeant forever haunted by what he saw and what he did for his country in Iraq.

"We shot a guy with his hands up," Massey recalled somberly, staring out the window of an Annex pub. "A young Iraqi, he was probably in his mid-20s. And then we shot a group of protesters. Then we shot a red Kia, there were four occupants in the red Kia Spectra, fatally wounding three of them.


www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Michele_Mandel/2004/12/05/765951.html

[truth2power]

37. Hard to confirm???.

You might want to read Ernest Partridge's article on the home page today.

Nuff said! :cry:

[MaroonVette]

41. Just read it

It's enough of a piece to drive a borderline suicidal depressive over the edge with all its bad news but I still didn't see any smoking gun about confirming the charges against this unit.

[truth2power]

48. Sorry if I was not clear about that, Vette.

What I was trying to convey was that the reports of the killing of innocent Iraqi civilians, in general, is not something that should surprise any of us on this board.

I regularly read Riverbend and Pax, referenced by Mr. Partridge, and it breaks my heart what these people are going through because of the sadistic fool in the WH who claims to be speaking for God.

My only point was that I would have no reason not to believe that Marine's account, seeing that we read of such things, and worse, on a regular basis.

[NNN0LHI]

26. Not one word of this on any US cable news outlets

Must have received their orders. This one is too hot to handle.

Don

[aikido15]

27. That is not...

surprising. Cover up, distort, lie, and above all take no responsibility for ANYTHING.

[Just Me]

46. In other words,...presenting "truth" is no longer the American way.

Why? Just watch a couple hours of our televison.

Geez. Our people are only valuable and happy if they buy a freakin' $50K car or throw dozens of golden boxes at eachother.

It's,...gross,...dysfunctional,...what our people have become.

HAVING is "loving".

BAH!!!!

Corporate America,...democracy dying at the feet of fascism.

[Judi Lynn]

47. Sorry, I duped Don's article. Thought I had a new one!

Former U.S. Marine in Iraq tells Canadian board some comrades became 'psychopaths' who enjoyed killing unarmed civilians
By Beth Duff-Brown, Associated Press, 12/8/2004 19:39


TORONTO (AP)
.........


(snip)
Massey, who did not know Hinzman before the hearing, said Hinzman likely would have been forced to commit atrocities that violated the Geneva Conventions if he went to Iraq.

Massey, 33, of Waynesville, N.C., said his 7th Marines weapons company killed more than 30 civilians during a 48-hour period in April while stationed at a checkpoint in the southern Baghdad district of Rashid. The victims included unarmed demonstrators and a man who drove up in a car and raised his hands above his head in the universal symbol of surrender.

''I know in my heart that these vehicles that came up, that they were civilians,'' he said. ''But I had to act on my orders. It's a struggle within my heart.''

The orders, he said, were to shoot at anyone who drove into what is known as the ''red zone'' surrounding the checkpoint because they could be suicide bombers.

Massey told the tribunal he got caught up in the frenzy and shot at civilians as well.

''I take full responsibility for my actions,'' he said. ''We deliberately gunned down people who were civilians. I became so concerned because I felt that Marines were honestly enjoying it. I saw plenty of Marines become psychopaths. They enjoyed the killing.''
(snip/...)

http://www.boston.com/dailynews/343/world/Former_U_S_Marine_in_Iraq_tell:.shtml

[Moderator]

49. Kick

:kick:

[MsMagnificent]

58. So where are all the officers in charge?

They're in charge right? Don't they set the tone?

Abu Graib, Fallujah... where is the leadership, the people who are supposed to be controlling these troops?
If the next officer in charge is also committing atrocities, where are THEIR bosses?