Deserters: We Won't Go to Iraq (60 Minutes Wednesday)

[Liberty Belle]

It's an offense punishable by death in wartime. It's been committed by 5500 soldiers since the war with Iraq began, 60 Minutes will report on Wednesday.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/06/60II/main659336.shtml

[tk2kewl]

1. yeah but those guys at CBS are liberally-biased America-haters

:shrug:

[Blue_Tires]

9. lol

that RW attack machine is already about to strike

[The Zanti Regent]

13. Isn't it 5501 if you add Chimpy?

If it's GOOD ENOUGH for Chimpy, It's GOOD ENOUGH for the other 5,500!. I hope they have as much fun as the Chimp did with all that Coke he snorted, booze he drank and Mexican whores he partied with...

[ugarte]

2. It takes more courage to say no than yes

nt

[wtmusic]

5. So that's why Chimpy stayed home

because he's so damn courageous!

[othermeans]

38. Not the same thing Remember chimp didn't even finish his NG commitment

[bemildred]

3. Dang! That's a lot of them.

VietNam took much longer to get to that sort of mass refusal.

[Liberty Belle]

14. The horrors of this war are worse & unjustifiable.

This war was started based on lies. So it is an immoral war based on that alone. The U.S. is dropping 500 pound bombs, decimating innocent civilians. Horrible reports are coming out of women, children and old men being shot while waving white flags, swimming for their lives across the Euphrates River. The BBC has reported that the US is using napalm, creating streets of fire. Also the US is reportedly using spent uranium banned under international law, causing irreperable health problems to anyone who comes in contact with it. If I were in those soldiers' position, I would refuse to be a party to mass murder.

[bemildred]

15. I assure you, they are all based on lies.

VietNam was worse than this, but was covered up better.
Not that I disagree with you otherwise.

[NNN0LHI]

18. I'm not so sure Vietnam was worse? US casualties in Iraq are surpassing...

...those from Vietnam by leaps and bounds over the same amount of time. I suspect civilian casualties are too? If we are already at the estimates of 100,000 dead Iraqis in less than 2 years, I am afraid that at the rate we are going at in Iraq, Vietnam will look mild in another 8 or 10 years.

Don

[bemildred]

30. Worse overall.

This has certainly taken a dive into the shitter faster.
But we haven't taken to bombing Iran and Syria yet, and the
number of dead is still a fraction of what we managed in VN.

[WebeBlue]

25. Richard Holbrook says Iraq more critical than Vietnam

Fmr Ambassador to UN, Richard Holbrook, on Chris Matthews show Dec 1, 04 said situation in Iraq more critical than Vietnam.

I took notice for 2 reasons.. I was young wife to h.s. sweetheart who was drafted to Vietnam. We have 2 loved ones in our family deployed to Iraq, served extended 15 month tours and are scheduled to do second tours in Iraq. It's well past time that the comparison of Iraq to Vietnam be made Before we have to look at a count of 58,000 killed as in Vietnam, and I don't want to watch the years roll by with the count climbing.

[bemildred]

32. I would agree with that.

I expect this to have far reaching consequences,
there is unfinished business, and this will bring it
to a head. And while the scale is less, it's a much
more egregious fuckup.

[calimary]

43. And that's putting it mildly.

MUCH more egregious fuckup.

Sad.

Horrible.

When does this end?

When do I get to wake up from this bad dream?

If only it were just a bad dream.

[WebeBlue]

22. Wow, nice concise synopsis

It takes me several paragraphs to get all the points made you managed to make in one paragraph. Yep, you covered it, LibertyBell Tx

repeating it, just in case anyone rushed by and didn't read it.

This war was started based on lies. So it is an immoral war based on that alone. The U.S. is dropping 500 pound bombs, decimating innocent civilians. Horrible reports are coming out of women, children and old men being shot while waving white flags, swimming for their lives across the Euphrates River. The BBC has reported that the US is using napalm, creating streets of fire. Also the US is reportedly using spent uranium banned under international law, causing irreperable health problems to anyone who comes in contact with it. If I were in those soldiers' position, I would refuse to be a party to mass murder.

[American Tragedy]

28. I've never wanted less to believe the BBC than right now

That is unbearable. I desperately hope that they're somehow wrong.

But even if they are mistaken on details, the outcome remains painfully clear.

By the way, I don't say that as a Freeper in denial, just as an American who finds it deplorable.

[Eloriel]

4. Whoa!!! 5500 --

:wow:

[UpInArms]

6. amen, brother

Hussein may have been a threat to the Iraqi people, but Hinzman maintains that was not enough of a reason for Hinzman to risk his life fighting in Iraq.

"Whether a country lives under freedom or tyranny or whatever else, that's the collective responsibility of the people of that country," says Hinzman.

He later adds that his contract with the military was "to defend the Constitution of the United States, not take part in offensive, preemptive wars."

[juliagoolia]

7. Amy Goodman had these guys on

Before the election. I am glad CBS picked it up. I think I saw them on FSTV or LINK.

They are stuck in Canada. Stuck? What the hell am I saying???

I don't like snow, but I don't like Fascist empires either.

[alexisfree]

17. yes...now I remember..

but were only two soldiers....asking for asylum in canada...now is more!!!!

[Ladyhawk]

51. Will Canada let them stay?

I thought they already said no to that.

[Milspec]

8. Sorry, "This dog don't hunt" for me

A slave of the draft is one thing... A volunteer service person forgetting why, in essence, her or she volunteered is yet another.

In 2004 this story just will not have the legs 1968 did.

[bemildred]

10. 5500 seems like a "small" number to you? nt

[leesa]

11. I think they REMEMBERED why they volunteered to serve.

[Protagoras]

55. Yes some soldiers actually feel like

they signed on to protect this country from enemies foreign and *DOMESTIC*. Pogo.

[LynnTheDem]

19. Bullshit.

Tell me please, WHERE in my soldier husband's contract does it say he must INVADE and OCCUPY a sovereign nation that was NO THREAT to America, that had DONE NOTHING WHATSOEVER to America, and in invading & occupying Iraq is DISOBEYING HIS FIRST SWORN DUTY...TO UPHOLD AND DEFEND the United States Constitution, which says the ONLY justification for war is in SELF-DEFENSE or as part of a ratified treaty such as the UN...WHO SAID NO to the invasion.

WHERE does it say he must fight ILLEGAL WARS?

TELL ME where it says he can IGNORE and DISOBEY his FIRST SWORN DUTY to defend the USC.

TELL ME where in ANY US soldier's contract it says WARS OF AGGRESSION are part of his/her sworn duty; what the Nuremburg Tribunal called the SUPREME CRIME.

My husband's contract says he will DEFEND THE USC against ALL THREATS foreign & domestic; it does NOT say he will IGNORE & DISOBEY the USC by fighting an ILLEGAL WAR OF AGGRESSION which IN FACT CONTRAVENES the USC.

[WebeBlue]

31. Defend the Constitution ... doesn't translate to

following the orders of the CIC in taking the oath to defend the Constitution. Most especially this CIC, who has brought about an illegal war. Amen LynnTheDem

[ThorsHammer]

34. Well said Lynn (n/t)

[Mad_Dem_X]

39. Brava, Lynn!

That post says it all. :thumbsup:

[Sara Beverley]

40. You are so right! Thanks for your response.

I was about to post pretty much the same thing.
Best wishes to you and your family and the husband who is serving.

[DS1]

46. Enemies, foreign and domestic

Our enemy is ourselves. It's certainly not Iraq, err wasn't Iraq until last year.

[Megahurtz]

49. I have news for you

Did you know that by law the Feds cannot force any soldier to sign this contract (with the Federal Government) that you are talking about?

They can threaten, harass, whatever, but there is no law requiring ANYONE to sign this contract. Once this contract is signed that's what really snags these guys.

Maybe this is too late, and maybe your husband would have signed it anyway had he known this, but this post is also for others for future reference.

[aquart]

27. Oh, it will hunt. It will track far and wide.

My sister still tells the story of her last evening with her friend, Joel, as he prepared to leave a close, loving family and flee to Canada. A student at Pratt, Joel was an artist.

She never saw him again.

Think today's dodgers and deserters have no friends or families?

[WebeBlue]

35. Nope it's not 1968, needs new thought, not old code

Sorry Milspec but citing the military code as honorable to follow (which it is) just doesn't cut it with this war in Iraq. Need some new thinking here, consigning this kind of unjustified carnage to our young and to the thousands of civilian families in Iraq is not nobility or even honorable military. It's flat out an exploitation of the honor of the military code. It's administration and policy that needs to be challenged on this one, not the kids who are "getting it" early in this war and standing up in courage to register their dissent. Hey, if they don't do it who is going to? You? Our American public? So far it doesn't look like the public is too much tuned into the "ground truth" in Iraq.

[sandnsea]

50. "illegal and immoral war"

The soldiers at Abu Ghraib had a responsibility to disobey those orders. These soldiers feel that same responsibility, not to commit an illegal or immoral act of war. The fact that they willingly joined to defend this country is what instills in them an even greater sense of responsibility.

[yardwork]

53. I am completely in sympathy with deserters of this war

for all the reasons given on this thread.

I didn't feel the same way when some troops tried to get out of their service during the first Gulf War. Then, I felt that they had volunteered to go to war when needed and it was wrong for them to try to avoid their service.

Our invasion and occupation of Iraq is wrong, though. Wrong. I can't blame a soldier for refusing to fight an unconstitutional war.

I think a fair number of other Americans will feel the same way.

[Djinn]

58. maybe they beleived what the propaganda told them

ie that they'd be protecting their country - they've now realised very few wars are fought for anything other than power and profit, this one in particular.

Good on 'em for waking up.

[Erika]

12. Many Came On After 9/11 With Gusto

and then slowly found out Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Why would anyone go to Iraq when the only profiteers are Bush's corporate globalist buds.

[alexisfree]

16. 5500 Soldiers now will able to cherish time with their wife, family &kids

IM SO PROUD OF THOSE SOLDIERS.

[ThorsHammer]

21. How exactly does the stop/loss policy work?

I've been reading a lot about it, but still can't figure out the details. It just seems wrong to force people to stay in past their commitment has been fulfilled, and is really like a reverse draft. It would be more understandable if we were being invaded, but makes no sense to send soldiers halfway across the world to fight in a quagmire.

[WebeBlue]

29. Stop Loss is part of the Draft ongoing under the radar

ThorsHammer asking about Stop Loss. It's a situation where a volunteer soldier completes his enlistment of (usually) 3 years and is ready to depart or re-enlist. In times of "combat" they can be "stop-lossed" or kept beyond their enlistment duration.

That's one way the Draft is working now under the radar. There are other ways the Draft is being made to work without using the word Draft =

-- multiple tours of duty in Iraq, troop rotations.

-- deploying Natl Guard and Reserves to combat for extended tours

-- enlistments of 3 yrs have a fine, tiny print that says the soldier agrees to commit to 8 years so even after serving their 3 yrs, can and are "activated" again

-- career soldiers who have served but choose to remain in Guard or Reserve are not being activated = 50-60 yr old men, even one 70 + yr old man activated.

-- injured and disabled soldiers being sent back into combat

-- change in Uniform Military Code to co-locate women soldiers with the men in combat zones.

-- Rumsfeld moving soldiers assigned to desk work to combat and outsourcing/privatizing the work formerly done by those soldiers

-- military families required to subsidize the costs and purchase out of pocket equipment not provided the troops (kevlar vests, personal needs/hygiene/clothing/medical supplies)

Volunteer...hell no, these kids didn't have a clue what they were volunteering for in Iraq. Exploited and once enlisted, cannot get out, it's a locked box for them. It's a Draft, make no mistake about it and it's wearing too thin to continue much longer.

[ThorsHammer]

33. Thanks for the clarification

I had heard a lot about the multiple tours and National Guard sent on extended tours, but had no idea about the rest. I wonder how many enlistees are aware of the fine print (8 years vs 3). It's one thing to commit to 3 years, but 8 is completely different. The parts about older men and injured/disabled soldiers sent back is ridiculous. Even worse is the families being required to subsidize the equipment costs. I do not understand (BBV theories nonwithstanding) how the military men and women can support someone like Bush. I really wish the public knew more about all the crap that has been going on there, and also think a 'regular' draft is on the horizon, esp. with the Iran rumors. I've heard many selective service commericals just flipping through the radio, and the timing worries me. Stop loss or drafts would be one thing if we were actually under attack, but are absolutely ridiculous for this foolish war (hopefully not wars....) that we are in.

[BeHereNow]

20. Dreams DO come true!

This scenario is what I meditate on daily.
I visualize this happening EVERY day.
No soldiers = No war.
GOD LOVE THESE HUMAN BEINGS
for refusing to add to the misery of the world.
Take that Bush, you evil, evil little man.
Our children are NOT going to kill innocent
people for you. We raised them better than that, despite
your malicious intentions to destroy their souls.
WE, the parents of the children you seek to destroy
with your illegal war are going to WIN.
We did not raise these children to be cannon fodder
for your GREED and AVARICE.
George W. Bush, you have mocked God and
as a Christian, I name you a spirit of the anti-christ.
In Jesus' name.
Amen.
bhn

[Stinky The Clown]

23. I am HUGELY conflicted about this

My initial impression is to be on their side. I can fully understand what their feeling and the courage it took to do what they did. I was in the Navy from 67 to 73, so I can surely relate to where they're at.

On the other hand, they have an obligation to serve, and apart from the reserves and guards (which I see as whooooole other issue) they volunteered and accepted that they might have to fight.

But they're pawns, really, sent to a stupid (to say the least) war by a stupid, arguably AWOL, pResident, all justified by lies. But sadly, also, it seems, technically legal.

I just don't know.

A rock and a hard place. I HATE that the military is being used and abused in this way. But at the end of the day, to refuse an order is a real offense. God bless them and God bless those who judge them.

[villagechild]

26. better to refuse the order

now, whilst outside of the combat zone. they will face a courts martial, and possibly a discharge with no benefits, but better that than refusing an order on the battlefield. that carries a graver consequence.

[villagechild]

36. Lt. Col. Tells Marines How To Disobey Orders

Lt. Col. Tells Marines How To Disobey Orders



Letters To The Editor

12.6.04 Wall St. Journal



I read with utter disbelief arid revulsion the statement by Harvey Volzer, lawyer for Spc. Megan Ambuhl, that the bottom line is this is the military, and you listen to your and you listen to your officers (Hard Time: Inside Abu Ghraib, Nov. 23).



Mr. Volzer cant have ever served in the military. I have served in the Marine Corps for 22 years, including being deployed for two years following 9/11 for Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom.



At every level of command Ive held and at every place Ive been, I have always instructed my Marines in The Three Rs: Repeat, Refuse, Report. Every Marine I know does the same.



If any Marine is given an order he or she believes to be unlawful, he or she has the legal and moral obligation to repeat the order to insure that it was heard correctly; refuse to obey the order; and then report the unlawful order to higher headquarters.



It doesnt take an advanced degree for a member of the military to know intuitively that some orders are just plain wrong and unlawful and that those orders shouldnt be followed, and that those who issued those orders be held accountable.



David M. McCarthy

Lt. Colonel, U.S. Marine Corps, Special Operations Command Central

Torrance, Calif.

[WebeBlue]

37. Appreciate your thoughts and is a new paradigm possible?

Husb2Sparkly, your stated feeling hugely conflicted about this reflects your own service in the military in regards to refusing an order. As well you have shown you recognize the honor of the military IS being used and abused. In that light, is it not a time for a different paradigm then, with military taking a more pro-active role in asserting it's own honor and not permitting that to be used and abused?

If we don't stand with those in the military who are trying so courageously to assert a truth about Iraq, who will stand with them? They seem willing to accept the consequences of their actions, however, the consequences for desertion, while not being prosecuted Yet, is death, is it not? Will we stand by for that as well in trying to live by the honor of the military code? When and where do the lines get drawn, how much will we tolerate in trying to uphold the myth of the all-volunteer military which in truth is a draft under the radar?

[Stinky The Clown]

41. I fear a very slippery slope

The military can NOT be allowed to override the civilian authority from which it derives its power. To allow the military to assert its own views in *this* case, no matter how righteous, would, in my not at all expert opinion, set a terrible precedent.

No, the fight needs to be waged from outside the military, not within.

As a person who served, I can tell you that, while in times of peace it may not matter much, in time of war the individual must be part of a cohesive, single-minded, disciplined unit. There is simply no room for individual dissenting thought. The military is not a democracy, and for good reason. Your life and the life of those with whom you serve could well hang in the balance. While this seems dichotomous to the notion that a soldier should object to and refuse illegal orders, or that a soldier should use his own initiative and thought to find ways out of unforeseen situations, it is not. That type of thought should be, and so far as I know, is encouraged.

Again I go back to my original thought on this ..... I am hugely conflicted.

[Boosterman]

48. Nice post

My take on this is the guys were probably right in a way but they didn't follow procedure. They should have refused the order and stayed to face the music. If enough did, it would make HUGE news. JMO

[shadowknows69]

60. If GW is truly as bad as we fear

then the only way it will ever stop is if the individual commanders start refusing orders on the behalf of their units on a moral basis. In total facism the military is the strength behind the throne.

[BlueDog2u]

52. it depends what kind of law you are citing...

and what your concept of the soldier's duty is. The Geneva convention clearly makes much of what is happening in Iraq illegal: it is illegal, for example, to kill civilians or to kill or intimidate doctors or journalists who may be conduits for criticism of military conduct to a world civilian readership. Therefore it seems to me that refusniks have every legal and moral right to refuse to serve in this war. Whether they can refuse because the war itself was launched on a lie, by liars and chickenhawks, is another question.

[jimshoes]

66. People, corporations and even governments

find ways to break contracts that they have deemed unfair or illegal. I think every soldier who has signed on the dotted line, after some soul searching, decides to opt out of his contract should have the right to do so. I hope these soldiers get their day in front of a judge.

[Laurab]

70. I understand your conflict, but...

it appears they are aware of their obligation to serve, and believe that it doesn't include an illegal, immoral war, that is protecting no one. I agree with them, and I too support them 100%. This is not the same world it used to be. I don't believe the soldiers are free to speak their minds. There is so much fear of this administration (with good reason, I might add), that I'm quite sure they felt talking to someone was not an option. These guys signed up to defend you and I, not to go on a murder/suicide mission that benefits no one but * and the co-pres, and their buddies with the no-bid contracts.

The soldiers interviewed seemed conflicted, too. They should not have had to make the choice they did. We should not be in Iraq. That's the bottom line.

[aikido15]

24. I had no idea there were so many!

Cool, they should all refuse to go, no soldiers, no war...that was easy.

[dave123williams]

42. I guess that would apply if CONGRESS had actually DECLARED WAR on somebody

[llmart]

44. Now, these are the kind of troops......

that I can support! It is always easier to be a conformist and just go along with the masses than to have the courage of your convictions and stand up for what you believe is right in the face of possible retribution. Nowadays you find too few people willing to put walk the talk so to speak. We are a nation of people who can talk about what we believe is right or moral, but when push comes to shove we're too chicken to make our actions coincide with our words.

These soldiers are very, very brave indeed. We need to support them first and foremost. The numbers will grow. Mark my word.

[BenDavid]

45. When was a Declaration Of War

ever passed by Congress? With all the folks going AWOL during VietNam, not a single one was ever charged with desertion or shot.One would have to agree that Iraq is nothing but one big cluster f***.

[NNN0LHI]

59. You are right

No one has been shot for desertion since the last declared war which was WW II. Everyone who went to Canada or elsewhere was given amnesty after Vietnam.

Don

[Solly Mack]

47. I'll send money to their legal defense funds

Point me in the right direction. I'll mail them off money tonight.

I support them 100%.

[Tight_rope]

54. That's 5500 soldiers still alive...Good for them!

[ridgerunner]

56. CBS out of Nashville is showing Billy Graham instead

good thing I also get CBS out of Louisville

[lakelly]

63. Whats up with that?

Did any one else out there experience the same thing. I saw the show about the soldiers. But, I did see a commercial for some show with Billy Graham this past week . It is the 1st time I ever saw a commercial with him on any channel. I'm from De. This is getting more and more scary.

[Dem2theMax]

65. Wasn't on in San Diego. I mean, God forbid they show a program

in a military town that tells about military deserters.
Might give the sailors and marines some ideas, hmmm?
And we wouldn't want to do that, now would we? /sarcasm.

And Billy Graham is shown on TV here all the time. Go figure.

[Blue_Tires]

57. thread in GD

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2805048

WPRI in Providence, RI showing back-to-back episodes of Fraser...no explanation, and no one picking up the phone when i called....

[0007]

61. Talk about putting the muzzle on the media.

[0007]

62. Bring the troops home and send junior and his crime cabal to the Hague

:kick::kick::kick::kick::kick::kick::kick::kick::kick::kick::kick:

[MsMagnificent]

64. Wasn't broadcast in Western NY

I checked for it at 8, 9 & 10 pm AND the half hours
Nada.

[guajira]

67. Wasn't Shown Here in Central Florida - Until 3AM!!

I had taped 60 Minutes last night (I thought) and when I started to watch it today, a crawler message said it would be shown at 3AM -- so I missed the show.

The show I taped appeared to be some religious show about missionaries with a group of very impoverished children.

This is getting scary.

[saigon68]

68. REPOSTED FROM THE LOCKED THREAD (graphic)

MAYBE THEY SHOULD SHOW THIS (graphic)



A common type of injury associated with roadside improvised explosive device run over by a
Humvee.


or this ????




Damage-control laparotomy with temporary abdominal closure —— serially closed at WRAMC
to prevent long-term ventral hernia and need for skin grafting.

[struggle4progress]

69. kick

:kick: