Ten Commandments Backed by Bush Administration in Court Fight

[quaoar]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aVq7CjVw_3Zc&refer=us

Dec. 8 (Bloomberg) -- The Bush administration, saying that religion ``has played a defining role'' in the nation's history, urged the U.S. Supreme Court to permit Ten Commandments displays in courthouses.

The Justice Department today filed a brief supporting two Kentucky counties accused of violating the constitutional ban on government establishment of religion by posting framed copies of the Ten Commandments.

``Official acknowledgement and recognition of the Ten Commandments' influence on American legal history comport with the Establishment Clause,'' the administration argued in a brief filed with the court in Washington.

The filing came in one of two Ten Commandments cases the high court will review early next year. Hundreds of state and local governments sponsor such displays. The justices are also considering the constitutionality of a monument on the Texas State Capitol grounds.

[yardwork]

1. Why is it always the Ten Commandments?

Why not the Beatitudes? Didn't Jesus say that the old ten had been replaced with his more difficult to achieve recommendations?

While we're on the subject, why not the Wiccan Rede?

[Nikepallas]

4. Because they want to relace the bill of rights with them

[Liberty Belle]

75. Why do they care if the Apocalypse is coming soon?

Their logic escapes me, as always.

[ProfessorGAC]

109. Logic?

There's any logic at all there for you to miss? I don't think so. The logic isn't escaping you; there's none to escape.
The Professor

[alvis]

5. Yeah, why stop at 10?

There's a whole bunch more of'em. I suppose they're the salad bar type, pick and choose what you want.

[Anakin Skywalker]

20. Oh They Most Definitely

ARE! Pick and choose. One of the main problems I have with the religious right.

[scarface2004]

41. then put up a statue of moses....

pissing on bush!!!!!!

[TahitiNut]

117. Preferably a burning Bush.

The statue of Moses could become more popular than Brussels' Manneken Pis. (Wouldn't want it to put out the fire, though.)

[Qutzupalotl]

31. Because the Beatitudes say, "Blessed are the peacemakers."

It's as if these people want to suppress that radical idea by promoting the ten commandments.

All the more reason for lefty Christians to push for posting the Beatitudes in public places where the fundies want the commandments.

I'm just sayin'.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

111. This atheist would help nailing such a placard

Get the warmongering fundies' pant in a knot.

[Warpy]

48. how come none of these pious morons has read the first three?

You know, the one where the Hebrew god admits there are other gods, and that he's jealous and doesn't want any of the other gods worshipped by his chosen people. You know, the one that tells Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Shitos, Animists, Yorubas, Navajos, Apaches, Lakotas, and a thousand others living in this country that their gods are garbage and their religions inferior? You know, the one that prohibits representational art and the other one that limits our speech?

How come they never remember that these are the first three commandments? How come they never realize what this says to a great many good hearted American citizens?

I think our sanctimonious friends need to read the whole business and think about what that might mean to other people.

[realisticphish]

97. not to be picky

but a LOT of that relies on different translations of the hebrew. not to mention that THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE NOT PART OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE!!!! AAAAH!

not directed at you, understand, im just screaming out of rage at RW morons


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[Supersedeas]

58. Time for Rove to throw the Fundies a bone....

[genieroze]

67. Tell them to

Bend over and let ROVEr take over.

[VegasWolf]

116. Yes, I have a bone for the fundies. n/t

[Gman]

63. They don't give a damn about the 10 commandments...

they've broken every damn one of them. All 10. They're going to keep the issue going for '06. Never to late to start campaigning.

[genieroze]

68. Lets all find confirmed examples of commandments these jerks broke. eom

[BlueEyedSon]

2. As long as they display them in the original Aramaic.

Anything else would be sacrilegious.

[mmonk]

29. Were they originally in Aramaic?

[BlueEyedSon]

36. No, probably Hebrew now that I think about it.

They were, after all, presented to Moses....

[quaoar]

70. Actually, they were in English

and were personally given to Bush by God.

[genieroze]

69. These people commit heresy at the drop of a hat. eom

[Ediacara]

3. And people didn't believe me

When I said the biggest threat from Bush was that he was a religious nutjob.... Not the lying, not the cronyism, the religious nutjobbery is really the worst part as it permiates everything they do.

Religious nutjobbery causes Bush to lie, it causes Bush to favor cronies, and in the end, it destroys the secular foundation of the country and makes people dumber.

[Anakin Skywalker]

22. Hey I Believe Ya!

I have been telling this in vain to the more moderate Repubs pre-election hoping they'd not give him a second term to fulfill the wishes of his nutjob fundy base.

[A Simple Game]

101. Personally I don't think * has a religious bone in his body.

But he knows how to play the religious right like a fiddle.

[UrbScotty]

6. It would be nice if they FOLLOWED the Commandments.

Especially #6, #8, and #9.

[Im_Your_Huckleberry]

32. no kidding.

[Lerkfish]

37. AMEN! and AMEN!

[napi21]

7. Why do you all think it's so wrong to have the 10 Commandments

in gov't buildings? I've testified in court several times, and I didn't have a problem swearing to tell the truth "so help me God". I'm not trying to be a trouble maker here. I guess I'm just trying to understand why it's such a problem. If you don't want to look at them, don't look. I don't think anyone has said that if they're in the building, everyone has to obey them all.

I know...I already have my body armor on for this question.

[Ediacara]

8. Well, it's pretty clear here

Bill of Rights
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

If government buildings have the Ten Commandments and no other documents, it's pretty clearly an establishment of religion forbidden by the First Amendment. There is also a question of WHICH Ten Commandments translated which way etc, so the wording would potentially not only be an establishment of Judeo-Christianity, but something like the establishment of Presbyterianism.

IF they were to support the Ten Commandments as well as millions of other varried religious laws, I would have no problem, but they don't want to do that. The goal is CLEARLY to post Protestant translations of the Ten Commandments with no other competition. These people are of the same mindset, and are often the same people, pushing for creationism to be taught in public schools "along with" evolution. They may talk about equal time, but what they really want is creationism ONLY.

Actually, I'd prefer it if they posted the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence myself...

ON EDIT: Spelling and Clarity

[napi21]

19. I agree with you on the "any religion" part, but has any other

religion even asked or tried to place their icons in govt buildings? The only thing I can remember is when the Jewish Menorah(sp) was banned from the courthouse in Pgh. because they had already banned the nativity scene, so they said they were playing fair.

It just seems to me like something that shouldn't matter so much on a national level. Do you really believe this would lead to a Gov't established religion? I doubt it.

I also agree with you on public schools teaching creationism and evolution. It is up to a child's family to teach the religious beliefs, and if they choose a public school, they need to also send them to a religion class at their church, synagogue or mosque.

Sad that so many people are shirking their responsibilities with their children, and try to make it a job of the Feds to only teach their side. Same goes for opinions. I don't want to be a Muslim, others don't want to be Jewish or Catholic, or Lutheran, or any of the other hundreds of religions. That should be OK with EVERYBODY! I just don't think it's OK for any of us to restrict the others.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

120. How Religion is Weaponized: Fascism For Dummies

American Scientific Fascism, or 'Friendly Fascism,' is a way to control populations without stationing machine guns on every street corner. Instead, it uses psychology to control and misdirect people by inflaming hatred, sowing confusion, and encouraging irrationality and obedience with the goal being to induce an 'Authoritarian Personality' among the masses.

Affecting people's brains is accomplished mostly by getting people to look at the world through a fear-distorted corporate-friendly lens called Television. Over 50 years of constant propaganda and distractions have successfully divorced the American people from each other, the natural environment, and the rest of humanity in order to direct them into economically exploitative wars and jobs that benefit the government and the corporations that own and run it.
http://www.mackwhite.com/tv.html
(The TV Hive Mind)

The public school system is also used to teach obedience, conformity, and determine where the child's abilities will be most profitable for the economy.
http://www.sntp.net/education/education.htm

Eight of the most common methods used against prisoners around the world to break the down their resistance during interrogation have been listed by Amnesty International in Biderman's Chart of Coercion. The same methods are used against mass populations, in domestic spousal relationship, and even in the raising of children by teachers, parents, and other physically dominating authority figures in order to insert social controls into the subject's mind.
http://www.actabuse.com/chartofcoercion.html
(Biderman's Chart of Coercion)

After WWII, researchers examined why so many under Hitler, Franco, and Mussolini had embraced the violence and hatred of a seemingly new psychosis called fascism.

http://www.anesi.com/fscale.htm
(Testing for Fascism Receptivity or the F-factor)

They found a common pattern:
Intentionally induced fear leading to group-think, sublimation of identity to the group, and attacks on outsiders. This leads them to embrace a Strong Father figure (fuhrer) for a sense of mental security.
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/07/22_politics.shtml
(What Makes a Conservative Brain)

Fascists use the divisive moralizing of sex and religion to anger people and turn them against each other instead of against the fascists.

It works if the brain has been filled with irrational dogmas to be defended against the competing and 'inferior other.' Targets for scapegoating are the same as the Nazi's: liberals, Jews, Gays, Africans, the poor, the weak, socialists, etc.

http://empirewatch.org/pages/_archives/fascism/pages/14_symptoms.html
(The 14 Symptoms of Fascism)

There is currently a powerful alliance between the religious right wing that wants to replace the US Constitution with the Bible (called Christian Reconstructionists) and the corporations who have owned and operated the US government for decades. The corporations ALSO want to eliminate the US Constitution and all other regulations on their profits. This anti-Constitutional alliance is called Dominionism and it has made alarmingly large advances in the last twenty years.

Both groups influence policies by corrupting or simply becoming our Senators, Congressmen, or even presidents. This is how an already flawed democracy is being successfully eliminated bit by bit through propaganda (called ‘psy-ops’ or psychological operations), infiltration, and legislation.

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_5160.shtml
(The Despoiling of America: How George W. Bush became the head of the new American Dominionist Church/State)

That's why the fascist-controlled media outlets are filled with the 'moral values' (sex and family) and religion stories during recent politcal campaigns, especially after this Nov 2nd, to capitalize on the idea that Bush* is protective, virtuous, and sanctioned to rule by God Himself so more people will think that liberal Democrats are tools of al-Queda or the Devil himself to be fought against tooth and nail.

This is why someone as hateful as Ann Coulter, Bill O’Reilly or Pat Robertson has an audience and lucrative career and George W. Bush* controls both the White House and the largest defense budget on the planet with increasingly destructive impunity:

An alliance of the Master Race and the Chosen Few are rapidly taking over the United States of America before our very eyes.

78. 10 commandments

Bush has sworn to uphold and defend the constitution. His action in this case(It is HIS White House)is impeachable conduct. I think we should go after him for this.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

9. I think they believe

non believers might be intimidated. What's funny is that Jesus replaced the 10 with 2-love the lord thy God with all your heart, soul and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.

I guess they sound too wimpy for the bloodthirsty fundies.

[Sinistrous]

10. You are kidding -- right?

These displays violate the establishment clause of the first amendment by providing government resources and approval to the promulgation of tenets of a particular religios group.

No mystery. No gray areas.

[Bono71]

18. Well, I wouldn't say "no grey areas." Simply look at our

money, the pledge in public school, the prayer a chaplain gives at the start of every Congressional session, the fact the Christmas is a **national** holiday...I could go on and on...

It is not an easy issue, and courts can come down either way...

[Sinistrous]

33. I find your examples less than compelling.

The "under god" phrase in the pledge is wrong for the same reasons stated above.

I believe the chaplains who give the invocations before sessions of Congress are unpaid.

Christmas being a national holiday proves nothing, especially given the hugely secular components of the related celebrations.

[quaoar]

46. What about In God We Trust?

[RaleighNCDUer]

90. Of those, only the chaplain goes to the beginning of this country, and

the chaplain, in fact, pre-dates the constitution.

The first "In God We Trust" was put on a 2cent piece in 1862. The "One Nation Under God" was inserted into the pledge in 1954 -- and the pledge itself only dates back to 1898. I'm not sure when christmas became a national holiday, but I do know that in the 1840s most churches were sermonizing against it, because it was an occasion of drunkenness and debauchery, which is why certain demo nominations to this day refuse to celebrate it.

These, and all other nationally recognized religious observances, have been insinuated into the fabric of American culture by religious extremists and opportunistic politicians over the last 150 years. As for the congressional chaplain, there were many who argued against him at the time on the grounds of separation of church and state. At the time, he was 'grandfathered' in, in an act of political compromise because the founders were worried about further fracturing an already very weak union.

Some of the founding fathers were Christian. Many were Deists. Some would today be called Humanists. A couple were atheists. And all were familiar with their own recent history with the religious wars of Europe, and the religious tyranny of certain colonies in their early years.

They would be appalled at the intrusions of religion into government that we have today.

51. the 10 commandments

Just another bush violation of his oath of office, in which he swears to support and defend the constitution, which includes the separation of church and state, the dumb lying bastard.

[thinkingwoman]

11. no armor needed

at least not from me.

I have some questions though:

1. Why should someone who does not believe in God have to swear to Him/Her/It?

2. Which version of the Ten Commandments can be posted without violating the establishment clause. A Christian version is usually posted, which advocates Christianity over Judaism. But what if a Jewish version was posted (which would be fitting given the Jews had them first)? Could anyone read it? And wouldn't that be advocaating Judaism over Christianity?

3. Why do Christians need constant reminders of what their rules are? Nobody follows me around reminding me that fraud is wrong or slugging people is wrong and yet I can manage to behave.

[Sinistrous]

13. Some answers:

1. People do not have to swear to a god they do not believe in. There is a secular version of the oath that can be sworn to ar attested to by those who ask for it.

2. There is no accepable version. The "ten commandments" are an artifact of the Judeo-Christian religions to the exclusion of all others.

3. Christians need onstant reinforcement of their beliefs because the edifice of their faith is built on sand.

[thinkingwoman]

15. I like your answers, but...

there's a secular version of the oath?

Holy crap I had no idea! Is it used in all 50 states?

[Viking12]

26. Yes.

Do you promise to tell the truth under the penalty of perjury.

I don't know how it works in the South, but in the court proceedings in which I've participated, no one swears to God in court.

[thinkingwoman]

39. wow, I live in southern Indiana

and I've only heard the so help me God one.

[yardwork]

55. I wouldn't try the secular version in the South!

At least, I wouldn't if I were the one accused and hoping for mercy from the court.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

14. You don't have to swear when you testify

at least not on a Bible, and you don't have to say "so help me God". Many courts don't even have any holy book; they just ask people to swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

I don't know of different translations of the 10 Commandments, so I can't comment on whether there are great differences between the Torah and different translations of the Bible.

I think most Christians want to live and let live. Its the rw wacko element that wants a Commandment in every courthouse, a fish sign on every car, and crosses for everyone to wear. They need to read the words of Jesus, where He says only hypocrites put on a big show about their religious faith.

[quaoar]

17. Howdy Ayesha

Ever go back to The Nuclear Sub?
Dp here.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

23. Nope

Got too tired arguing. Decided to let people who are asleep remain asleep.

[quaoar]

25. Haven't posted there since the election

Discovered I had nothing to say that wouldn't be hostile.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

34. Good hearing from you, though!

Hi!

[napi21]

28. You could be right about the "so help me God" thing. It was

a while ago when I last testified. I didn't have to lay my hand on a bible, but when the oath was read, they said "...tell the truth, so help you God". Perhaps it has been changed since then.

I think you're right about Christians, Jews and most other religions wanting to live and let live. I guess the big problem I'm having with all this apealing to the SCOTUS stuff is that a decision in favor of allowing religious symbols to be displayed in govt buildings will just energise the RW instead of just silencing a few radicals who don't want any of this at all. The radicals seem to be fighting to remove any religious symbols for the buildings, from the money, and everywhere but a church. I think it's just going to fuel the fire, and I sure don't want that to happen.

[thinkingwoman]

40. I'm holding out hope

that the Supremes will uphold the rulings against the Ten Commandments in public places.

Yes, I probably am delusional. But I intend to enjoy my delusion right up until the time reality smacks me in the face on this one.

I think you're correctly predicting what a Supremes ruling in their favor would lead to though.

[RaleighNCDUer]

92. Much of Islam is drawn from Judism and Christianity, and Moses

is honored by Islam. Do Muslims have a version of the 10 commandments? If so, would the fundies tolerate the Muslim version being posted?

[thinkingwoman]

104. very good question

thanks for correcting my omission of islam.

I think the fundies would go nuts. I think their heads would explode. It would be fun to watch, actually.

[Democracy Died 2004]

12. Religion is a choice

freedom and democracy are not. Hmm maybe we could replace the being gay is a choice with "Religion is a choice"

[quaoar]

16. I would have no objection to the Ten Commandments

being displayed on public property such as a courthouse if it were part of a display of documents that have influenced American jurisprudence, such as the Ten Commandments, the Magna Carta, etc.

[RaleighNCDUer]

93. Only 3 of the 10 commandments have anything to do with civil

jurisprudence. And those three have been mainstays of law since before Hammurabi. Don't kill, don't steal, don't lie under oath.

Put otherwise, 70% of the Christian 10 commandments have nothing to do with the law.

That sort of argues against them being a foundation of our legal system.

[Anakin Skywalker]

24. Because It Empowers the Nuts.

Causes the fundies to think public buildings BELONG TO THEM, instead of the public which includes other peoples. If that does not make sense to DUers reading this, imagine how I feel trying to understand fundies.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. So do you want to have to swear to tell the truth

"so help me Allah"?

This is the biggest reason I strongly oppose this. Sure, a liitle Christianity reference isn't too bad, but as soon as we have the 10 commandments plastered all over our govt bldgs, we need to make room for Jewish and Muslim icons as well.

So if you don't mind the words "under God" in the pledge, what will you say when someone wants to add "under Allah"? Will schools and other places of govt businesss have to stop work 6 times a day and allow the Muslims to pray?

I honestly believe that as soon as we allow the Christian symbols and references, we are opening the floodgates to other religious symbols, etc. I am not an attorney, but that is how I am interpreting the constitution. So I say no religion in any govt facility.

[Left Brain]

30. Amen to that, P2BL (n/t)

[justjones]

45. You are right, except my problem is that....

there is no way in the world the people who are behind the push to put the 10 commandments on government buildings would turn around and allow another religion's tenets on the same buildings to be "fair." That's what I find problematic about Christianity and religions in general....they are elitist by nature. If it is in any other name than Christianity, they'd deny equal rights in a heartbeat.

So I don't see it as a floodgate so much as an attempt to force Christianity on the non-believers, the beginnings of the American Taliban, if it hasn't already been firmly established. I see it more as if you give these people an inch, they will take a mile.

[lawladyprof]

47. From Justice Souter's dissent in Agostini

"A government cannot be premised on the belief that all persons are created equal when it asserts that God prefers some ." (citing/quoting (sorry too tired to look up which it was, Engel v. Vitale (foundation 1962 school prayer case), p. 429.

[Maat]

56. Ah, thanks, Law Lady Prof ...

just the quote I needed.

[sandnsea]

35. The Constitution or the Bible

You cannot have a free and democratic society that protects the liberty and justice of ALL the people with both.

The idea was that religion could best flourish, APART from and OUTSIDE the government. Government would not hinder the free practice of religion or support it. Religion has flourished, that part worked well In this way, people would take the morals and ethics learned from their religions TO the governmental process. This part didn't work so well, which is why religious groups keep wanting to shove religion into government as a solution.

The problem is that religion is not the problem. Laizzez-faire capitalism is the problem. Fuck your neighbor all the way to the bank, is the problem. Greed is not healthy for society or government, and would generally be at odds with religion. But that's the most often ignored part of the religious equation for the fundamentalist Ten Commandment pushers.

[cosmicdot]

49. if I may pose the question differently: why are some people so fanatical

and proactive about having the 10 Commandments placed in gov't buildings?

In the few courthouses (i.e., Virginia) I've been in, I don't ever recall seeing the 10 Commandments in any shape or form.

Personally, I don't believe that those who codified our form of government meant for the 10 Commandments to be where these zealots desire them to be. I view these people as being at radical odds with our Founders.

Of course, I expect the waves of lawyers being schooled at Pat Robertson's Regent University will start citing Bible verses in their arguments and briefs.





~just for reference ... found via a google ...


The 10 Commandments are found in the Bible's Old Testament at Exodus, Chapter 20. The tradition is that they were given directly by God to the people of Israel at Mount Sinai after He had delivered them from slavery in Egypt:


"And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God…

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbour's house; you shall not covet your neighbour's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbour's.'

http://www.canadianlawsite.com/10commandments.htm

[Art_from_Ark]

65. I wonder how many Ten Commandment proponents

realize that the Jesus statue in their home is a violation of Commandment #2?

[WCGreen]

79. Or worshiping a stone replica of the Ten Commandments

is a violation #2

80. the 10 commandments

You will notice that in the second commandment, in which the Lord prohibits any "carved images, any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, of that is in the water under the earth," there is no mention of grilled cheese sandwiches!

[peacebird]

50. because we supposedly have separation of church and state?

what part of that is hard to grasp? some americans are (gasp!) NOT christ worshipers.
having xtian commandments shoved down our throats is offensive.

[Cobalt Violet]

54. Will you accept Satanic propaganda being hung as well?

You don't have to look at it.

[genieroze]

66. Separation of Church and state.

The 10 commandments represents Christianity and Judaism only. Maybe we should start forcing Churches to build a stone statue of the Bill of Rights and see how the fundies like it.

[Whoa_Nelly]

100. Freedom is distance between church and state

I will not tolerate having anyone's personal religious belief system shoved down my throat. I will sign every petition representing opposition of this move by the Bush misadministration. If anyone has any links to such petitions, please post them.

'nuff said.

[genieroze]

105. Amen. lol eom

[BikeWriter]

83. Include the Torah, the Koran, and the Satanic Verses!

Just to be fair, don't you see?

[CornField]

106. Perhaps the Christians should replace

"The 10 Commandments" with the "Wiccan Rede" -- then they might understand why we should not allow any one religious icon to have a seat within our government.

[Billy The Kid]

108. 10 Commandments

I have a real problem entering government buildings that state their
number one root law is "I Am The Lord Thy God"

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

112. For starters, Commandment 1 places an illegal restriction.

You can't keep people from practicing OTHER religions. It's tyranny.

[indepat]

21. All ten of them?

[Piperay]

44. Like the ones about lying and

stealing...I think that my hit too close to home for the chimp regime. x(

[VegasWolf]

38. Thou shalt worship no party other than the elephant. n/t

[pinniped]

42. That asshole* doesn't even follow the Ten Commandments.

.

[Piperay]

43. If they allow that then

shouldn't other religions like Buddhism, Muslims etc be allowed to put up their rules to live by?

[SKKY]

52. I'm surprised they haven't pushed an amendment...

...to the 10 commandments yet. I seems to me that's the next logical step for them.

[VegasWolf]

59. Thou shalt have marriage between man and woman or goat. n/t

[Cobalt Violet]

53. It's so fucking false that our laws are based on the 10 commandments.

I can only think of 2

Though shall not kill ( which they seem to have no problem doing, ie. Iraq and death penalty.)


Though shall not steal ( which they seem to have no problem doing, ie. the worlds resources and elections).

[nodehopper]

81. if we had laws based on 10 commendmants we'd have a Code Law system

we don't have Code law.

[nodehopper]

82. if we had laws based on 10 commendmants we'd have a Code Law system

we don't have Code law.

[dmac]

57. I say,

Hell yes! Let's put the 10 Commandments in Court Houses and let's put the sixth Commandment in ALL CAPS, and larger blocking than the rest:


THOU SHALL NOT KILL
(Yes, this means you!)

[Dr Fate]

60. "Thou shalt not bear false witness" should hang in Bush's office.

Of course, I doubt he would follow it.

[arwalden]

61. Why Not Display The Beatitudes? Why Moses' Commandments?

Bush* and his Christianity are taking this country BACKWARD. He's an intellectual midget and a spiritual hypocrite.

KEEP THAT RELIGIOUS CRAP OUT OF OUR COURTS AND OUT OF OUR GOVERNMENT!!

[Hekate]

84. Would public display of The Beatitudes embarrass some people?

The Christian folks who are most gung-ho about putting the Big Ten in every public place don't mention the *other* 600 commandments in the OT.

It would be much more consistent with the message of Jesus (whom they claim to follow) if there were an outcry for hanging copies of The Beatitudes everywhere, since those really are Jesus' core teachings. Yet they are strangely silent on that subject -- possibly because those gentle teachings would put the bigoted, uncompassionate, and greedy among them to shame.

Why not start bringing this up every time the latest Ten Commandments story appears?

Hekate

[leesa]

62. Wish he would try follwing the Ten Commandments. He is a magnificent

sinner in God's eyes.

[PROUDNWLIBERAL]

64. civil Union Bill Passes in New Zealand

Just heard on New Zealand National Radio that the Parliament passed the Civil Union Bill by a vote of 65-55. Civil Union is now the law of the land in New Zealand. What a progressive country!!!

[Sgent]

71. More 10 commandments

To the above posters, in the 1st district of Mississippi, the swearing in goes:

Bailiff: Sir, do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

Witness: I do.

That's it -- no god, nothing but an affirmation. This is in the deep south.

As for the ten commandments, assuming the courts ruled in favor, which ones do we use? Jews, Catholics, and Protestants all have different versions... Plus do we put them in Hebrew, Greek -- the language of the Septecult, or English?

[Senator Lamb]

72. playing devils advocate here

isnt the ten commandments an historical piece of law that defined western civilization. Just as we have Greek and Roman references and statues throughout our courts, whats wrong with the 10 commandments.

Yet all together this is a non issue. want to make god happy freepers? go out and feed the poor and comfort the sick? thats what J.C would be doing instead.

[VegasWolf]

74. because that plays favortism to some religions and not others and

thus help establish an "approved" state religion.
The winged crow say's no to the white man.

[RaleighNCDUer]

94. See my post, #93, above. n/t

[VegasWolf]

73. We should ask Mel and Opus Dei which version to use. n/t

[really annoyed]

76. Here Is My Question

The First Amendment states:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press...

The First Commandment states:

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

The Third Commandment states:

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain.

Now, here is my question - If the Ten Commandments are the basis of American law, why do we have a First Amendment?

It violates the FIRST and THIRD commandment!!!

Freedom of religion allows us to freely choose what religious path to follow. Freedom of speech lets us speak positively AND negatively about religion.

The first commandments COMMANDS we have NO other God before us.

The third commandment COMMANDS we never take the name of the LORD in vain.


SO - what is it going to be here? I have no doubt in my mind what the choice of the Bush administration is.... That goes for the American public too, even though half of them can't even name three of the ten commandments.

Now all we need is a sweeping epic by Mel Gibson on the Ten Commandments, Heston style!

[progressoid]

110. Outstanding! I love that argument - I'm gonna use it on my mother-in-law

Thanks! Maybe in a letter to the editor too - is that OK with you?

[allalone]

77. they need to have them posted in as many places as possible

cuz they use them as a to do list.

[bunkerbuster1]

113. I thought they wanted them posted

because they keep forgetting if it was ok to commit adultery, steal, and whatnot.

Really, what is up with these people? Is it really just about annoying as many libruhls as possible?

[truthisfreedom]

85. if they can follow "thou shalt not kill"

they can have the damned 10 commandments.

[Karla in Ohio]

87. Kentucky won't leave this alone

In 2000, the state passed a law allowing display of the commandments. It was struck down by the judiciary. The state just can't stop doing this. Republicans in the state who haven't drunk the Kool aid (there are a few) keep asking the legislature to leave this alone, because it costs the state thousands to keep the legal fight going. But no.

This would be one of the reasons I'm so happy I don't live there anymore.

[StephanieMarie]

86. I'd be more impressed...

...if they actually followed the commandments, particularly that one about "not lying", and then there's the one about "coveting another's property (read, oil reserves)".

[shay_shay]

88. Doesn't that whole "Thou Shalt Not Kill"

thing go against W's love of the death penalty??? If the Supreme Court sides with W, I can't wait for all of the people on death row to start challenging their sentences. Don't get me wrong - I am firmly anti-death penalty, but it would be fun to watch Rove et al eat their words.

[janx]

89. King George recognizes the power source when he sees it.

He has been using religion and will continue to do so. This is pretty dangerous.

[Arancaytar]

95. The problem with using the bible as law

Rather than a secular, established lawbook is that the bible as such (and as a matter of fact any holy book) is not structured in any consistent way. Also that for any given argument and statement in it, there is at least one other statement that says the exact opposite.

So what happens is that you read through it, memorize what you like ("Kill the Unbelievers! Eye for an eye!"), forget what you don't ("Thou shalt not kill. Love thine enemy."), and then follow what you've remembered.

The process is comparable to laser printing. The paper - ie the mind - is charged with an opinion beforehand. By reading the bible, this is only thrown into sharp black and white relief as the 'bible powder' sticks only in those areas which you believe already. With its vagueness and selfcontradiction, the bible does not serve to unite people of different opinions - it serves to polarize them by strengthening and confirming the most extreme views in each.

[Arkana]

91. Sure, as long as they display the Five Pillars of Islam as well

No? Then you can't have one religious symbol without others. Stupid fuckers.

[FeelinGarfunkelly]

96. anyone see Nightline last nite?

Some guy for ABC did a report about the Roy Moore Alabama Commandments. They're traveling across the country on the back of a big truck, and all those who wish can go see them, take pictures of them, etc. The guy doing it is some wacko. They even took them to a high school parking lot in Texas and the kids all got excused to go look at them because it was a "current events" lesson, and then the dude w/ the truck got on his soapbox about "our country was founded on Christianity, blah blah blah."

They interviewed the principal and a social studies teacher, both of them Christians. The principal seemed very much in favor of the kids getting out of school for this and thought the commandments should be on display everywhere, but the teacher had the best idea. They don't need to be posted---kids can learn proper behavior by the model that he sets. I almost freaked out that some uber Christian could say something that is exactly how I feel about the entire issue! Go social studies teachers who aren't football coaches!

[RealLiberal4U]

98. Not Really My Thing

But aren't the Ten Commandments on display inside the Supreme Court's courtroom?

[Bridget Burke]

107. I don't know. Are they?

Do you have a picture?

I've been to DC but didn't tour the Supreme Court building. Some of the ornate old Beaux Arts edifices are heavily decorated. I could easily imagine a frieze of "law through the ages"--Code of Hammurabi, 10 Commandments, something Roman, Magna Carta, etc.

The Special 10 Commandments display was added to that courthouse--not as part of the decorations, but as an intrusive display everybody had to pass. Glad it's gone.

[VTHoosierPatriot]

115. They have Moses, Confucious, and Solon (sp?)

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=Ten+commandments+Supreme+Court+building&ei=UTF-8&fl=0&fr=FP-tab-web-t
Here's various angles and spots. They have Moses on the fron t and behind and above the CJ in the courtroom, but they also have many other cultures represented as well. They aren't in view alone or even in an accessible way.

[Slowhand16]

99. great...

[neweurope]

102. you have the separation of church and state. Anything religious

should not be displayed in public buildings therefore.

I find it dangerous to say "Oh, that's such a small thing, it doesn't bother me." First of all it's a demonstration of power plus some kind of advertising and therefore something that has a certain influence on the public. Secondly: Many small things that aren't too bothersome when taken by themselves will be very bothersome at some time when they are combined.

Every road - and the road to serfdom and fascism is no exception - begins with the first step... There are criminals in that government and I would try to oppose EVERYTHING, literally everything they want to do.

[OETKB]

103. This is not the Time

for allowing a "little more religion" to enter government. These ten statements are a religious credo and nothing else. None of these 10 statements has been the basis of our laws which are formed by legal experts who have been duly elected by the people and interpreted after due consideration by our courts, if needed. Further if there is bad law it can be reversed(not easily, of course).

[VTHoosierPatriot]

114. I don't give a #@

I care more about who's wearing the black dress making the decision. This issue stinks and should be ignored. If it doesn't concern people being killed, war profiteering, retirements being stolen, rich eating the poor and middle class, health care system sodomizing the economy, or corporate sluts putting arsenic in the water, it's on the back burner for me. I really can't make myself care about a stone tablet or framed piece of paper or two words in the pledge of allegiance.

[Gregorian]

118. If they are not followed, then it matters not where they are posted.

Like the Constitution, George Bush violates the Ten Commandments. Either he can't read, or he is the ultimate hypocrite. No, the ultimate in hypocracy will be when he murders people while the Ten Commandments are posted right on his oval office desk.

But what's more is that both the Constitution and the Ten Commandments are unimportant in writing. It's their practice within our hearts, it is the unwritten message that they promote, that is important. Neither are present in American society. At least amongst those who proclaim the loudest.

[gordianot]

119. I am going to remind my daughter of this next time she talks back.

Who she needs to honor.

Sarcasm off.

She is 13 and entitled to her opinions. She is also becoming on her own, a strong Democrat. As a permissive liberal I have encouraged this. She is even showing signs of becoming a feminist. Sounds like we need to get with the program.

10 commandments. Jefferson's bones must be having a fine time in his grave tonight.