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Rockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 09:57 AM
Original message
Gay Marriage OK in Canada (Canada Supreme Court)
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. You're fast... was just going to post this.
Great news!
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sonicx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
2. God should be getting his revenge any day now...
just you wait and see. :crazy:
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RageKage Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
3. Awesome opion.


No one doubted that it wouldn't violate the constitution to recognize same-sex marriage... but the gov't wanted them to say they had to. Since it was a reference to the court from the government, and not an actual case, the court was able to decline to rule on the question of whether they had to do it.

They are sick of Parliament trying to duck difficult issues by passing them to the Court. - and then getting criticized for being activist judges.

Now they'll be forced to do their job and actually lead on issues, - actually try to win support for what they believe.
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
27. them canadians
Edited on Thu Dec-09-04 04:28 PM by ooglymoogly
they believe the earth is round too. guess well just have to invade and save them heathe'ns from themselves and give them some rightious democracy bushco style.
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
4. TOTALLY AWESOME!
Oh Canada!

You are so very cool....
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
5. link to judgment
http://www.lexum.umontreal.ca/csc-scc/en/rec/html/2004scc079.wpd.html

Excerpt from headnote (summary); those with an interest will find the entire decision worth reading (I haven't yet):

Pursuant to s. 53 of the Supreme Court Act, the Governor in Council referred the following questions to this Court:

1. Is the annexed Proposal for an Act respecting certain aspects of legal capacity for marriage for civil purposes within the exclusive legislative authority of the Parliament of Canada? If not, in what particular or particulars, and to what extent?

2. If the answer to question 1 is yes, is section 1 of the proposal, which extends capacity to marry to persons of the same sex, consistent with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms? If not, in what particular or particulars, and to what extent?

3. Does the freedom of religion guaranteed by paragraph 2(a) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms protect religious officials from being compelled to perform a marriage between two persons of the same sex that is contrary to their religious beliefs?

4. Is the opposite-sex requirement for marriage for civil purposes, as established by the common law and set out for Quebec in section 5 of the Federal Law-Civil Law Harmonization Act, No. 1, consistent with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms? If not, in what particular or particulars and to what extent?
The operative sections of the proposed legislation read as follows:

1. Marriage, for civil purposes, is the lawful union of two persons to the exclusion of all others.

2. Nothing in this Act affects the freedom of officials of religious groups to refuse to perform marriages that are not in accordance with their religious beliefs.
Held: Question 1 is answered in the affirmative with respect to s. 1 of the proposed legislation and in the negative with respect to s. 2.

Questions 2 and 3 are both answered in the affirmative.

The Court declined to answer Question 4.

(Question 4 is not of any real interest in relation to the actual issues.)

The rules regarding who may marry are under federal jurisdiction. (The provinces have jurisdiction over "the solemnization of marriage in the province", which includes the issuance of marriage licences, the commissioning of people to perform marriages, the requirements of marriage ceremonies, and so on.)

The Court has held that Parliament has the necessary jurisdiction to define marriage to include same-sex couples.

The Court has also held that such legislation is constitutional, since it is consistent with the equality rights in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

The Court then held that no religious denomination, or its clergy, may be compelled to perform same-sex marriages if doing so is contrary to their religious beliefs.


Now ... if I were still practising law, I would be looking for, say, a conservative Muslim who was hired by the private firm to which the Ontario government contracts out the issuing of driver's licences, and who refused to issue a driver's licence to a woman because doing so was contrary to his/her religious beliefs. I would argue that s/he could not be compelled to issue driver's licences to women, because doing so would violate his/her right to freedom of religion.

The issue is the same: people who perform marriages and people who issue driver's licences are acting as agents of the state, and should not be permitted to discriminate in the performance of their duties.

Some provinces have already directed non-clergy who perform marriages under commissions issued by the province to resign their commissions if they will not perform same-sex marriages. Representatives of religious denominations who refuse to perform same-sex marriages should be given the same directions. Nobody's compelling them to perform any marriages, so requiring them not to discriminate if they do perform marriages is not a violation of anybody's anything.

But that's for another day. ;)



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Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
6. Damn, beat me to it.
This is excellent, though...if only we lived there.
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
7. Of course. Canada is part of the real world, not a backward,
superstitious, sorry excuse of a nation.
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Newsjock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
8. Fuel to the fire
Still waiting for the first successful immigration lawyer to get a gay couple granted asylum from the USA to Canada. The floodgates will open, and the great gay talent of the United States will flee forever.
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AllegroRondo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
9. Is banning same-sex marriage gender discrimination?
Something I've always wondered is whether banning same-sex marriage in some way discriminates against people based on their gender.

for example:
Ann can marry Bob
but Charlie cannot marry Bob, solely because he is male.

so Charlie does not have the same rights as Ann and is being discriminated against because he is not a woman.

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Feathered Fish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. I believe it is, and apparently so does the Can. Gov't
But the court said that by failing to appeal a number of lower court rulings that said excluding gays from marriage was discriminatory, the federal government had already accepted that position.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/12/09/scoc-gaymarriage041209.html
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. just to clarify (edited to add)
Edited on Thu Dec-09-04 12:49 PM by iverglas
The Court didn't find that it was unconstitutional to deny same-sex couples the right to marry. It was just answering the questions put to it, and the specific question was:

2. If the answer to question 1 is yes, is section 1 of the proposal, which extends capacity to marry to persons of the same sex, consistent with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms? If not, in what particular or particulars, and to what extent?
That is, not whether it is unconstitutional to prohibit same-sex marriage, but whether it is constitutional to permit same-sex marriage.

On edit: note that this makes it the reverse of the question that the Massachusetts Senate put to the Massachusetts Supreme Court, which sought an opinion about legislation to prohibit same-sex marriage:

It being the public policy of this commonwealth to protect the unique relationship of marriage, only the union of one man and one woman shall be valid or recognized as a marriage in Massachusetts. Two persons of the same sex shall have the right to form a civil union, if they meet the requirements set forth by law for marriage between a man and a woman.
See that Court's decision here: http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache:F5GamqzBk_YJ:www.boston.com/news/specials/gay_marriage/sjc_020404/+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8


The SCC did indicate that, if asked, it would presumably find that prohibiting same-sex marriage would be unconstitutional (my emphasis):

The purpose of s. 1 is to extend the right to civil marriage to same-sex couples and, in substance, the provision embodies the government's policy stance in relation to the s. 15(1) equality concerns of same-sex couples. This, combined with the circumstances giving rise to the proposed legislation and with the preamble thereto, points unequivocally to a purpose which, far from violating the Charter, flows from it.
But in any event, the ground for finding that the prohibition was unconstitutional would *not* be that it discriminates on the basis of sex (as AllegroRondo hypothesized it could be).

It would be because the prohibition discriminates on the ground of sexual orientation, which the Court has held is itself a violation of constitutional rights -- if, as is the case for any rights violation, the government cannot justify its actions:

1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.
Lots of rights violations can be justified (no shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre ...), but the Court has made it pretty plain in this decision that it would not regard prohibiting same-sex marriage as justified.

Gay men and lesbians are constitutionally protected against legislation and govt. policy that discriminates on the basis of sexual orientation in Canada.

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Feathered Fish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Whew!
Thanks iverglas. Always welcome to your clarification. :)
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. that's an argument
for example:
Ann can marry Bob
but Charlie cannot marry Bob, solely because he is male.
so Charlie does not have the same rights as Ann and is
being discriminated against because he is not a woman.


It isn't necessary to make this argument in Canada, however, because there is a constitutional protection against legislation/policy that discriminates on the basis of sexual orientation.

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (which is Part I of the Constitution Act, 1982, Canada's modern constitution) says:

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/

(Emphasis added to indicate where the Charter expands on traditional "equality before the law" and "equal protection of the law")

Equality Rights

Equality before and under law and equal protection and benefit of law

15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

That provision became effective in 1985. All governments in Canada are subject to the Charter, and legislation that is incompatible with the Charter is invalid -- unless the govt in question specifically enacts that a particular piece of legislation applies notwithstanding equality rights, e.g. A mere desire to deny equal protection and benefit to gay men and lesbians would be seen by a majority of Canadians as a pretty crappy reason to exercise that exceptional power, although it's something that the right wing has bandied about.

Not long after the Charter's equality rights became effective, the Supreme Court held that the prohibited grounds of discrimination listed in s. 15 are not exhaustive, i.e. they are examples of prohibited grounds, but others may exist.

In 1998, the SCC held that a provincial government's human rights code (governing discriminatory practices in the private sector) that prohibited discrimination on the ground of race, sex, religion, etc., and did not prohibit discrimination on the ground of sexual orientation, was unconstitutional -- because it violated the rights of gay men and lesbians to the equal protection and benefit of the law.

http://www.lexum.umontreal.ca/csc-scc/en/pub/1998/vol1/html/1998scr1_0493.html

(italicized emphasis mine)

69. It is easy to say that everyone who is just like "us" is entitled to equality. Everyone finds it more difficult to say that those who are "different" from us in some way should have the same equality rights that we enjoy. Yet so soon as we say any enumerated or analogous group is less deserving and unworthy of equal protection and benefit of the law all minorities and all of Canadian society are demeaned. It is so deceptively simple and so devastatingly injurious to say that those who are handicapped or of a different race, or religion, or colour or sexual orientation are less worthy. Yet, if any enumerated or analogous group is denied the equality provided by s. 15 then the equality of every other minority group is threatened. That equality is guaranteed by our constitution. If equality rights for minorities had been recognized, the all too frequent tragedies of history might have been avoided. It can never be forgotten that discrimination is the antithesis of equality and that it is the recognition of equality which will foster the dignity of every individual.

... 72. As stated by Sopinka J. in Eaton v. Brant County Board of Education, <1997> 1 S.C.R. 241, at paras. 66-67:

... the purpose of s. 15(1) of the Charter is not only to prevent discrimination by the attribution of stereotypical characteristics to individuals, but also to ameliorate the position of groups within Canadian society who have suffered disadvantage by exclusion from mainstream society as has been the case with disabled persons.

The principal object of certain of the prohibited grounds is the elimination of discrimination by the attribution of untrue characteristics based on stereotypical attitudes relating to immutable conditions such as race or sex. ... The other equally important objective seeks to take into account the true characteristics of this group which act as headwinds to the enjoyment of society's benefits and to accommodate them.
... 77. The respondents concede that if homosexuals were excluded altogether from the protection of the IRPA in the sense that they were not protected from discrimination on any grounds, this would be discriminatory. Clearly that would be discrimination of the most egregious kind. It is true that gay and lesbian individuals are not entirely excluded from the protection of the IRPA. They can claim protection on some grounds. Yet that certainly does not mean that there is no discrimination present. For example, the fact that a lesbian and a heterosexual woman are both entitled to bring a complaint of discrimination on the basis of gender does not mean that they have equal protection under the Act. Lesbian and gay individuals are still denied protection under the ground that may be the most significant for them, discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

In the US, equal-protection analysis is different, since the US constitution does not contain the kinds of equality rights present in the Cdn constitution. The US courts have developed a method of scrutinizing legislation that is challenged on the basis of denial of equal protection that resembles the method used in Canada in many ways. But the US courts don't start from the blanket guarantee of equality present in Canada, and they prioritize "suspect classifications" (race, sex, etc.) as a priori more or less important -- whereas Cdn courts examine legislation on a case-by-case basis to determine whether they deny equality, without a predetermined hierarchy of importance based on the ground on which equality is denied.

A useful guide to the process in the US:

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/epcscrutiny.htm
"Levels of scrutiny under the equal protection clause" (of the US constitution)

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dretek_ca Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
10. Not a done deal yet...
It still has to pass in Parliament but hopefully that shouldn't be a problem. There are four parties represented in the House of Commons and three of the four.... the Bloc, NDP, and the Liberal Party, are quite socially progressive.

All Canadians reading this should phone or write to their MP and let them know you support same-sex marriage.
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
11. Kick
:kick:
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
14. Don'tcha just hate it when another country surpasses us...again
Seems like so many other nations have accepted these common sense ideas and moved forward to an enlightened future while we are floundering in 19 century morality and bigotry. It's depressing.
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jayctravis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. I don't hate it.
The guy I don't agree with allegedly "won" the Presidency. I think it's great that other sovereign nations don't feel the need to toe his line.
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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
17. I am starting to lose count...
of all the ways that Canada kicks ass

:toast:
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. That's because Canada
is not in the race for world power and control.
Not like this stupid country.
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faithfull Donating Member (154 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
18. Kick!
:donut:

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. that's very Canadian of you!
Have a timbit



and a double double



on us!




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Catfight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
19. Rename the Statue of Liberty for America to the statue of shame.
I can't believe people get their jollies by oppressing other people. It seems to me all the people who oppose equality cannot walk a mile in someone else's shoes.

Good for Canada for doing what is right, not what is easy and wrong, to discriminate to appease the lynch mobs who hide behind the cross.
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lies and propaganda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
23. I wish i could sing...
Oh, Canada...Our Home and Native Land.

....alas:cry:
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
24. The bill even has Conservative support.
Prime Minister Paul Martin said he would introduce the bill to Parliament in January.

Martin has asked MPs to support the bill, but has also told them it will be a free vote.

The Liberals hold a thin minority government, with 134 of the 308 seats in the House of Commons, but should have the support of most or all of the 19 New Democrat MPs and 54 Bloc Québécois MPs.

NDP Leader Jack Layton has said his caucus will vote in favour of the bill, while Conservative Leader Stephen Harper, whose party is split on the issue, says it will be a free vote.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/12/09/scoc-gaymarriage041209.html
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livinginphotographs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
25. Oh my God!!! Nooo!!!
This must be why Rush Limbaugh's third marriage fell apart! Because those evil, godless Canadians are allowing gay marriage!!!

/sarcasm
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Strawman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
26. I hope Canada demands that the US honor those marriages
Edited on Thu Dec-09-04 03:51 PM by Strawman
for Canadians who are working or traveling in the US. Sooner or later there's going to be a case where a Canadian in the US is told he/she doesn't have the right to visit his/her partner in the hospital or make a life/death decision for them or something else. There's bound to be an episode like that if there hasn't been one or more already. I'd like to be able to say that maybe something like that would shame people in this country into changing their backwards hateful attitudes, but I don't think it would.
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Isere Donating Member (920 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
28. Oh, God help us!
Now the divorce rate in America is just going to skyrocket with all those homosexual marriages attacking us from our northern border!

Just watch the fall of the American family as same-sex unions threaten the sancity of our marriages! This is tantamount to an act of war!

LOL! Gotta run now so I can consult my divorce lawyer.


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PROUDNWLIBERAL Donating Member (220 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
29. New Zealand
And, New Zealand yesterday passed a Civil Union Bill. What an isolated, backwaerd country the United States of Hate has become!
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