US hospital tries to evict McDonald's

[Englander]

Burger giant refuses to give up its franchise without a fight

Suzanne Goldenberg in Washington
Thursday December 16, 2004
The Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1374876,00.html

One of America's premier cardiac hospitals is locked in a furious battle with McDonald's after its director sought to evict the fast-food outlet from the clinic's sprawling site.

After a lifetime of cleaning up clogged arteries, Toby Cosgrove, the director of the Cleveland Clinic, was convinced that fast-food restaurants had no place in an institution with a mission to promote healthier lifestyles.

But he evidently did not expect resistance from McDonald's.

When presented with its marching orders from the Cleveland Clinic, regularly ranked as America's best heart hospital, McDonald's flatly refused to move.

[DRoseDARs]

1. Who the flying fuck gives a fast food joint a place 2 set up n a hospital?

Wow. Just wow.

[rodeodance]

2. Lots of hospitals are in the same boat! (like gas stations)

[Englander]

3. That was my 1st reaction;

There's nearly 30!!

This from the WP;
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64735-2004Dec14.html
"Of its 13,000 U.S. locations, about 30 McDonald's outlets are in hospitals, including children's hospitals in Los Angeles and Philadelphia. The New York City Health and Hospital Corp. does not intend to renew the McDonald's contract at its Elmhurst hospital and has not decided whether to keep the one in the Jacoby Medical Center in the Bronx, spokeswoman Kathleen McGrath said. The Harlem hospital closed its McDonald's earlier this year."

[DRoseDARs]

6. What, are hospitals desperate for patients?

Wow. Just wow.

x2

[AngryOldDem]

17. Largest hospital in my city has a Wendy's

The lobby of the place, quite frankly, resembles a trendy mall or an airport terminal with small shops, etc. I think this is seen as a place where people can go to get a quick bite to eat because there aren't many restaurants in the general area. But now that I see this story, yeah, it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense having a fast-food joint in a hospital. Kind of like having cigarette machines in the hallways.

This hospital also went through a major renovation, so I guess they figure whatever (or whoever) pays the bills...

[rainbow4321]

20. Dallas' county hospital--Parkland Hospital-has had McD's forever ...

Gigantic hospital--McD's is always packed..at one point they even advertised it on the local radio station..oh, yeah "hey, honey let's go on down to the hospital so we can stop by McDonald's, get a cardiac by-pass while we are there." One stop shopping, you know.
Supposedly this McD's is not supposed to serve food to the patients unless they had a stamped note from the doctor/nursing staff that they could eat there..ha, ha, ha...half the county is there and you think the people behind the counter are checking for permission slips?

[ChickMagic]

107. Yeah, they do check.

I work here at he medical school and there are certain days you don't want to go. Open wound day is probably the worst. But they do have to have written permission from their doctor explaining exactly what they can eat. I've seen most of them just get coffee - it's way better than Parkland's coffee.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

45. I had to spend some time at the Jacoby Medical Center

in the Bronx and was astonished that there was a McDonald's IN the hospital.

I was even more astonished when I saw all the doctors in their pale green coats lined up to get their Big Mac and fry fix. Then I was saddened seeing families sitting around eating the food with wheelchaired elderly relatives. It made me feel bad for them, being put in a situation where they had little choice but to eat at the McDonald's. I didn't see any evidence of a normal cafeteria on the premises.

I have little to no medical knowledge, and I avoid McDonald's as much as possible.

[serryjw]

119. What a timely story......

I never eat fast food, but had a Big Mac and fries for the first time in over 10 years. OMG, I spent ALL night in the bathroom. Is this really food? My body HATED it.

[Liberty Belle]

38. San Diego's Children's Hospital has a McDonald's, too.

I thought it was disgusting when it went in, and said so.

[SoCalDem]

80. Not too many years ago, there were cigarette machines in hospitals

and ashtrays in the waiting rooms:)

Times change:)

[deminflorida]

4. Whatever, maybe McDonalds should shut down the Ronald

McDonald house that is sure to be located near the hospital which soul purpose is to provide long term lodging for poor families who have loved ones undergoing treatment.

They have the right to sell hamburgers anywhere they want, just like I have to right to eat a fuc*ing hamburger anywhere and anyplace I want to.

We're not talking about second-hand fuc*ing smoke here.

Fruit-Cakes...the world is full of Fruit-Cakes.

[rooboy]

7. If their sole purpose was to provide accommodation to loved ones..

then they wouldn't be called RONALD MCDONALD House. A very large part of it is a marketing ruse to make them acceptable to communities so that kids will have their breakfasts and birthday parties in a McDonald's restaurant.

The sinister implication of these places is that governments stop bothering to build them. Then it becomes a matter of letting McDonald's into your community or else losing the respite center across the road from the hospital. Communities should be building these things themselves and telling McDonald's "thanks, but no thanks".

[tx_dem41]

19. So now we're going to start questioning every company that supports...

a charity?? Yi, Yi, Yi....where are we going with all this?!?

[Bono71]

42. Agree...

I think some in our party have forgotten that its ok to incorporate and make a buck...and to be charitable with some of the earnings.

Free will people, if you don't want cancer, don't smoke. Nobody is forcing anyone to eat MacDonalds.

[rooboy]

65. So you agree with military recruiters in high schools, then.

Nobody's forcing kids to join the military.

[tx_dem41]

67. Well, first...I have no problem with military recruiters in high schools

on general principle. I believe we need a military, and I know that for some the military can be a very good career choice.

Now, second....this analogy makes NO sense.

Third...do you think people are forced to eat at McDonald's'? I would guess that is the part of Bono's post you are attacking? But, heck that tortured confusing analogy might have thrown me off.

[rooboy]

70. It's not a confusing analogy at all.

Americans are up in arms over the fact that schools have to provide names of their kids to the military. Why? Because the parents are afraid that some smooth-talking recruiter will convince their child to enlist by talking them into it in a weak moment. Oh, but that's "free will", isn't it?

My 6 year old child went to over 20 birthday parties in the last year. SIXTEEN OF THEM were held in a McDonald's or Burger King store. This "free will" you speak of is a myth - most people are manipuated in ways they don't even understand. Do you think that the parents of these children chose McDonald's because of the nutritional value of the food? Of COURSE not. McDonald's has cheap food, a supervised playground for the kids and coffee for the parents.

Fifty million obese Americans later, and finally people are starting to realize that the decisions they're making may be influenced by some rather disingenuous marketing.

Go and get a copy of the documentary "The Corporation", and you'll learn exactly how much "free will" people really do exercise in their daily lives.

[tx_dem41]

71. I don't need the Government to protect me from

..."disingenuous marketing" of the sort you talk about. That's what I have a brain for.

[Bono71]

73. It's like the scene out of Dr. Strangelove...

we just can't keep our right arms from performing the heil hitler salute...dern evil marketing...

[Bono71]

72. McDonalds were popular long before Americans became obese...

Should we cut out cake from birthday parties?

Free will a myth? You need to start reading Dostoyevsky--and fast.

[SoCalDem]

82. When Fast food came into fashion, the PORTIONS were small

compared to now.. They just kept raising the prices and then the sizes, so that people would think there were getting more-for-their-money..

When I was a teen, we had a place like McD's.. Hamburgers were 15cents, a coke was 10cents, and a very small bag of fries was 10cents also.

The hamburger bun was a little bit bigger than a biscuit, and the fries were smaller than the "small size now".. the coke was 8 oz..

[Bono71]

84. It is not MacDonald's fault if people don't have will power...

what's next, the local donut shop?

[SoCalDem]

89. The proliferation of fast food is the problem...not the individual places

..

There was a time when "fast food" was a TREAT.. to be savored occasionally.

There are people today in their twenties who have probably had very little "real food".

They grew up with poptarts for breakfast...school cafeteria (trucked in) pizza, greasy burgers,and soda & candy machines line the hallways....microwaved frozen dinners or drive through-on-the-way-home-from-work food.Late night snacks of microwave popcorn, bags of chips or chemical-brew ice cream.

rinse & repeat...



Fast food and food that we call junk food USED TO BE occasional...not everyday.. THAT's the problem..


Soda pop was a TREAT
Chips were a TREAT
Ice Cream was a TREAT
Dessert was NOT served every meal
Frozen dinners were a rarity
Donuts were a treat

[Bono71]

90. Yes, and the answer to that is parenting and better nutritional habits,

not the banning of such places by the government (granted, I agree, once the lease is up, the hospital can kick out McD's if it wants).

[SoCalDem]

92. We've gotten ourselves all twisted in knots..

Most families can no longer "afford the luxury" of having a stay-at-home Mom, and that's part of the problem.. Nutritious food preparation requires TIME...the one thing people have little of these days..



Everyone's so busy chasing the almighty dollar, they have no time to LIVE.. They just exist on a tight schedule ...a faux life..

Kids they so desperately want, are raised by strangers in an institutional setting...

Houses, so gorgeous on the walk-through, are only enjoyed by the family pets, because the families are too busy commuting and working, they have little time to enjoy them

The jennair stove is likely to have cobwebs, since food goes from freezer to microwave in its shiny black plastic disposable dish..

People arrive home tired, aggravated and dreading the household chores that need doing. The fastest meal is the choice..Unwrap it..nuke it..order it..whatever..

Kids have homework, need baths, need time with parents.. there is no time to spend a few hours fixing and eating dinner, when 4AM wake up call is the norm.

The Fast food industry came along at the same time we "needed" fast meals....

[Bono71]

95. If you don't have time to parent a child, don't have one.

It is true that fast food offers a quick convenient meal. Unfortunately it is not a nutricious meal. Again so what? There are things parents can do to provide healthy meals, including what many working moms I know do---prepare meals for the week and invest in tupper ware.

[SoCalDem]

103. Thankfully, I was able to be a stay-at-home and mine are grown

They all benefitted from home cooked meals..None have had kids yet, but when they do, I think they learned from their own childhoods.. In fact my oldest has said that he might be the house-husband and stay with a child if they ever have one. He works from home most of the time, and would make a great stay-at-home Dad.:)..

[rooboy]

66. What on earth are you talking about?

McDonald's isn't supporting a charity. They ARE the 'charity'. And I'll repeat the comment I made above. If they're being so 'charitable', then please explain to all of us WHY they didn't call it Kroc House or something else.

If you think multinational corporations are into the charity business just for fun, then sorry to say it, but you're being fooled.

[tx_dem41]

68. Ummm...when did I say that "corporations are into the charity...

..business just for fun"?

Please cite where I said that. You are really confusing me today!

[Bono71]

69. No Francis,

noone would argue any for-profit business wants to be charitable "just for fun." The fiduciary duty owed by the board of directors to shareholders might just prevent such a thing.

However, it is nice that business and charity can exist together and that both benefit from business investing in not for profit work.

[Patiod]

12. So what can they offer?

I noticed on ABC news last night they said "if McDonald's goes, are Subway and Starbucks far behind?"

Seriously - who decides this? Who decides "no hamburgers"? How do they decide what CAN be offered? Coffee has been implicated raising cortisol levels. Subway sells refined white flour breads - bad news. Au Bon Pain - sugar, sugar sugar everywhere.

Where is the line drawn?

Plus, if someone in my family is in the hospital, I might just want a little comfort food.

[deminflorida]

21. Your exactly correct, and it's Fruit-Cakes that support shit like

this that is causing the Democratic Party to lose elections. Purge their asses from the party and let them go green and continue to lose in order to make a statement.

As far as I'm concerned don't let the door hit them in their assess.

[pop goes the weasel]

24. what?

How do Democrats fit into this?

Really, everytime some hyper-nanny activity comes up, people blame it on liberals and Democrats--even Democrats apparantly do this. Why? Do you have any idea what political party this doctor supports? If he's like most doctors, he's a Republican.

In Texas during the last legislative cycle, junk food was banned from public school campuses. Fair enough. No one expects kids to have the self-discipline to go for an apple instead of a Snickers. But the Republican-controlled legislature didn't just say no selling of junk food on campus or ban franchise eateries. They also dictated to parents what can be sent to school. They made it illegal for parents to send cupcakes for birthday parties, to have cookies in their lunch, to keep a snack in their book bag. Stop assuming Democrats are the culprit. The truth is that busy bodies are attracted to who ever has the power, and right now, that ain't the Democrats.

[deminflorida]

26. No but there are Democrats here supporting this crap....

read the posts if you don't believe me.

[pop goes the weasel]

43. i've read them

and suggest you do the same. Most people are arguing whether the hospital, as a lettor, has the right to determine who may be granted a lease, or whether the hospital's action represents a case of over-stepping by a public authority. You seem to think it is the latter case. And you blamed Democrats for it.

Personally, I think the hospital can probably do what it wants in regard to choosing its lettees, but may be constrained by the particular contract it signed with McDonalds. If the hospital is having trouble with excess smuggling of forbidden foods to patients, then they certainly have a concern. But evicting the tenants may not be necessary to acheive that goal. I suspect they could arrange with McDonalds for an abbreviated menu that emphasizes salads and lean meat and de-emphasizes high-fat meals. Unless McDonalds has refused to offer a more acceptable menu, what the hospital is likely doing is making a political statement by singling out McDonalds, and if that is what is going on, McDonalds has reason to fight the effort to oust them.

I also think that it would be acceptable to have a law forbidding franchises in public buildings, but think that it is going too far when laws forbid people from bringing in their own meals, regardless of what is in the meal or who prepared it. I think there is a shifting balance to be sought between private rights and public responsibility, in so much that the more a private entity grows in wealth and power, so that it approaches the status of a public entity, the more public responsibility it should shoulder. And that part of public responsibility is the maintenance of private rights, so the finding of the balance is a constant process.

As far as the Democratic Party is concerned, instead of acting like support for increased corporatism is something inherent in Democrats, you should point out that it is behavior one would expect in Republicans. You worry, rightly, that the Republicans have managed to gain the upperhand politically. You want to know how they did it? They did it by blaming Democrats and "liberals" for everything that people find annoying, even when it was Republicans and conservatives who were responsible. The lesson to learn is that it doesn't pay to blame your own party for misjudgments, but that it does pay to blame the other party for every evil under the sun. And really, if anyone is to blame for the hand-wringing worrywart nanny state corporatism of the present day, it is the party that has controlled most aspects of government for the past 25 years: the Republicans.

[FizzFuzz]

51. thank you--excellent post n/t

[Bono71]

44. You are right... I don't know what the count was, but SMALL business

owners went for Bush in large numbers (when dems should have done well considering our stance on health coverage).

[KurtNYC]

22. Actually they need a lease, local permits, zoning permits,

sign permits, a health inspection, fire code inspections, etc. which doesn't sound quite as laissez faire as you have characterized it. (Deminflorida: They have the right to sell hamburgers anywhere they want)

And the lease is the key element here.

Also "live by the hamburger, die by the hamburger":

(Wendy's founder, Dave) Thomas, 69, died around midnight at his residence. The company said he succumbed to liver cancer after having a tumour for more than a decade.

He had also been receiving dialysis for a kidney problem since early 2001, and underwent quadruple heart bypass surgery in December 1996.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/news/?/news/2002/01/08/thomas_020108

[Dora]

29. Liquor, Guns, and Burgers... COME ON DOWN!!!

The vitriol of your response makes me wonder if you own a McD's franchise.

McDonald's does not have a "right" to sell its burgers anywhere they want. That's a crock and I think you probably know it.

It's undeniably hypocritical and irresponsible for our hospitals and our Medical Establishment to have these artery-clogging, diabetes-inducing, super-sizing godzillas of the grease-trap putting its poison into hospital patients, patient families, and medical staff.

I may be wrong, but I believe that the Hippocratic Oath begins, "First do no harm."

Following your logic (that they have a right to sell what they want where they want), the hospitals might as well open up gun shops and liquor stores too. After all, guns and liquor contribute to hospital admits just as much as burgers do. Liquor, guns and burgers - they can all kill. They'll kill at different rates, but just as surely, and all depend on the judgment of he who holds the instrument of destruction.

[tx_dem41]

32. Am I correct in assuming from your statement....

"It's undeniably hypocritical and irresponsible for our hospitals and our Medical Establishment to have these artery-clogging, diabetes-inducing, super-sizing godzillas of the grease-trap putting its poison into hospital patients, patient families, and medical staff."

that you would support the outlawing of these facilities in ALL hospitals and medical facilities in the country (public and private)?

[Dora]

34. You're not correct in assuming.

I said it was hypocritical and irresponsible. I did not say that it was illegal, and I did not say that it should be illegal. I never mentioned legality.

Hospitals are businesses, and they bring in McD's because it's profitable, either in cash returns or by reducing bureaucratic workload. I'm no moran, and I understand the nature of our capitalist culture.

What I said, and I'll say it again using some different words, is that it is hypocritical and irresponsible for our hospitals to have these fast-food franchises as the food source available to the public.

Our medical establishment tells us to control our health through a healthy and varied diet while at the same time handing us the artery- clogging McDiet of greasy beef, greasy fries, and high-fructose corn syrup sodas (or worse, diet drinks sweetened with chemical piss). How anyone can argue that this is neither hypocritical nor irresponsible is a shame and an embarassment to good common sense.

I'd probably feel differently if McD's had a different menu. But they don't.

Side note: What I would REALLY like to know, is how many of these hospitals have a separate cafeteria for doctors and higher-administrative staff, and what are the menus like in there?

[tx_dem41]

48. I stand corrected then....sorry I assumed incorrectly.

As for you side note....having been involved in hospital management, all the hospitals I have been in do not have separate facilities for management and/or doctors.

[rooboy]

5. Just keep giving McDonald's vouchers to all the incontinent patients n/t

[BiggJawn]

8. So your bypass candidates drive to their Big Mac Value Meal instead...

...of wheezing their way to it on their way out of the clinic...

Doctors COULD caution their patients not to clog their arteies on the way out, but Mickee-Dee would probably sue them for restraint of trade or something...

Bet the clinic thought it was gonna SO help the bottom line to "outsource" food service for the facility instead of running their own kitchen that they could actually control...

Sucks to be them...

[SoCalDem]

86. Schools & hospitals want to "outsource" their labor costs

Most schools do not have "on site" food prep any more, so all their stuff is "fast food"..smells bad.. tastes bad.. and is bad for the kids.

same goes for hospital food.. It's pretty bad, but as fast as they shuffle people out the door, I guess they figure that no "long-lasting" harm can come to the patients by a few days of crappy food :)

[BiggJawn]

115. And don't forget our brave Soldierss!

Having to endure day-after-day of cold hotdogs and baked beans or MRE's...At a cost to *US* of $35 a plate!

Thanks, Halliburton!

[michaelwb]

9. Next on the agenda

Proposal for bars to host AA meetings....

[insane_cratic_gal]

10. Super Size it

Have any of you seen that?

it's a documentary about a guy who goes on a Mcdonalds diet for 30 days.

He brings up the fact that McDonalds are in hospitals, lol repeat busniness?

If you can rent it, it's good.. it goes on to explain about kids lunches to all other sorts of corprate america selling junk to our kids.

[flordehinojos]

11. i have to say that I believe that GENES have more to do with clogged

arteries than the ingestion of macdonald's, burger king, checkers, wendy's, long john silvers, you name it cheeseburgers and FRENCH fries!

[cap]

14. hate to say it but diet does matter

There are loads of heart problems in my family. My mother had a lot of heart problems (about 13 separate conditions and diseases). She not only cut out fast food but all red meat and fried foods. She lived many years longer than what her doctor, one of the leading experts on heart disease, ever imagined.

She lived on boiled vegetables and baked potatoes. Also exercised 20 min a day. I know if my blood pressure and chlorestoral go up that this will be my fate in life (and I love to eat).

My husband, on the other hand, has high blood pressure and chlorestoral (sp). You cant pry burgers and fast food from his cold dead hands but believe me, I work on it. His father and brother are diabetic. He has none of the health problems they had at his age because I am all over him about his eating habits. These burgers are death pills for people like him.

I wholeheartedly support decisions to remove fast food from hospitals. It is awfully disheartening to watch people do the wrong thing with their eating habits when you are trying to help them. I know how the doctors feel.

[flordehinojos]

15. on the other hand ....

my husband loathed burgers, ate lots of salads and health foods because he likes them, his father and oldest brother died of heart attacks, four years ago he had to have an angioplasty and his cholesterol level has to be monitored every three months.

i ate (don't do it now because i have to lose excess weight) hamburgers, cheeseburgers and pizzas all the time because i love them. FRENCH fries too because as the descendant of REVOLUTIONARY AMERICA's french people, I learned to love French fries.

My recent check up was perfect (and I should not boast about it lest something goes wrong as it usually does when people say, I've never had a tooth ache and darn if that tooth won't start hurting shortly thereafter). My problems are in the digestive system. My husband, thank God, has none of those kinds of problems. They were not in his family system. They were in mine.

My son says, "What do I have to look forward to?"

When I pointed out to the doctor who follows us both that GENES have more to do with health than diet does... there was nothing she could say.

[cap]

27. start reading the scientific studies correlating diet and heart disease

and you will find overwelming evidence of the impact of diet on heart disease. Diet can limit and delay the effect of poor genes. Your relative's experience is not statistically significant.

[flordehinojos]

41. my relatives history may not be statistically significant to you.

They are to us (and they are to me)--and to the doctor who takes care of us.

[RebelOne]

114. Genes have a lot to do with it.

I have a very high cholesterol count and high blood pressure. I am a vegetarian and I do not eat fried or fatty foods. My only sin is that I smoke. My doctor told me I should blame my mother and father because they also had high cholesterol and high blood pressure. It is entirely hereditary.

[Dora]

35. Genes contribute, but not "more"

Genes also contribute to alcoholism, diabetes, and other conditions of being human.

That doesn't mean that hospitals have to contribute to the problem.

[w4rma]

13. McDonalds is holding out for money. They want a big payoff to move. (nt)

[Chandler Stork]

16. The Cleveland Clinic's own cafeteria sells plenty of fatty crap

like french fries, greasy burgers, etc. My father was there for heart surgery, and their canteen wasn't too much healthier than any fast-food joint.

Check this out: http://www.freetimes.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=2244

[mainer]

18. Hospital cafeterias are no better than Mickey D's

I used to work in hospitals. Fried everything in the cafeteria. But I did like their eggplant fritters.

[tx_dem41]

23. I don't need the government to make decisions for me.

I actually have the ability to exercise good judgment if I so desire. Its my body, and my decision.

And, I respect others' ability to make their own decisions as well.

[Bridget Burke]

25. The hospital is not "the government"

They're not saying nobody can ever eat at McDonald's. They just want them off their property.

[tx_dem41]

31. D'oh! Thats what I get for reading the subsequent posts and ...

skipping the original post. Yikes...Sorry.

[cap]

28. I dont respect the impact that other's poor decisions have

on my insurance rates. Government sponsored health care prevention and public health awareness programs do a lot to decrease the cost to society. These programs give everyone an awareness of medical conditions and the necessary steps people should take to avoid unwanted Take women and heart initiative. Most people dont know how different women's symptoms are for heart disease than men's. Women often dont experience the pain in the chest and the shooting pain down the arm. They have a variety of manifestations including pain in the jaw and cramps in the toes. Thank the Government for providing us with this information. Properly managed, government does good things for us all.

[tx_dem41]

30. You misunderstood what I was saying....but it was my fault I think

I didn't mean to have my post be a sweeping anti-Government statement. It was very narrowly applied. As to the ingestion of food into my body, I don't mind the Government providing me information about it (in fact I want it), I don't mind the FDA having control over its hygiene....I just don't want the Government telling me I can't eat it.

[cap]

46. on the contrary, the government should tell you not to eat

certain foods if they are detrimental to your health. We've had some anti-sugar campaigns in order to decrease tooth decay. We have anti-fat and chlorestoral campaigns going on in order to decrease the onset of heart disease and diabetes.

The government tells us about the 8 basic food groups one should eat in order to maintain a healthy lifestyle.

The government should tell you that if you have a risk for heart disease you shouldnt eat fast food and it should tell you that a healthy lifestyle involves eating this stuff only occasionally -- maybe once a month. It gets real hard to break habits as you get older.

[tx_dem41]

49. There is a distinction between the Government telling me....

that I shouldn't eat something (I don't have a problem with that) and that I can't eat it.

[depakid]

55. Free to externalize your costs onto everyone else

Your freedom isn't "free." And since the government pays tons of money on needless healthcare for your right to eat disgusting ground beef- including MY MONEY, I think they do have a right to- no strike that- a duty- to keep you from injury. Same basic premise behind seatbelt and helmet laws.

[tx_dem41]

56. So how should the Government "keep me from injury" exactly? n/t

[depakid]

58. Well, for starters

maybe they should stop the heavy subsidies on advertising fast food- to children.

Or maybe properly test the meat? That would be nice.

As it is I pay so that fast food companies can promote products that make people sick- which ends up costing me more money.

[tx_dem41]

60. There are heavy subsidies for advertising fast food to children?

Never heard of them. Can you cite a source for that?

As for testing meat....well, that's really a separate subject, that I doubt anyone on this forum would disagree with. The issue doesn't have anything to do with the "normal" health effects of fast food, which I thought you were going to address.

You still haven't really shown how you want the Government to keep me from injuring myself when I chronically eat fast food.

[depakid]

63. You are kidding?

Every nickel spent on advertising is a tax writeoff. Stop allowing tax writeoffs for money spent convincing kids that McDonald's serves healthy, wholesome meals and direct the money saved (or the increased revenue paid) to the government (to the tune of billions annually) toward obesity prevention programs.

Good enough?

[tx_dem41]

64. Oh...now you clarified it by rephrasing....

that's cool.

[Richmond27]

33. I think many people miss the point...

this doctor is asking a tenant to voluntarily move because their service is a conflict of interest compared to his own. As gross as McDonald's is, they have not done anything to warrant eviction and the only real and fair solution is to let them stay until their lease runs out. McDonald's cannot be blamed for America's overwhelming heart conditions and issues, they do, after all, offer healthier alternatives to hamburgers on their menu. Eating food that is high in cholesterol and saturated fat is purely a choice.

[Dora]

36. There are ways to break a lease, or bring in another tenant.

If the hospital was really committed to it, they would buy out McD's, or they would create another space for another food vendor to come in.

[Bridget Burke]

37. There's really no conflict of "interest"...

For those who hold money & business as their highest values, that is. From a busines sense, the doctor is being foolish. By losing a tenant, the hospital will be losing rent. More important: by discouraging the consumption of unhealthy food, the heart institute risks a future decrease in patient load.

The doctor should just concentrate on the money he can earn. He may be tired of watching people kill themselves & then beg to be "saved"--but he needs to get over it!

[Richmond27]

39. You are right...

"More important: by discouraging the consumption of unhealthy food, the heart institute risks a future decrease in patient load."

but because the doc was asking them to leave his facility, I assumed he had principles and was not concerned about loosing patients by instilling that principle.

[saigon68]

40. I WANT a JOE CAMEL SMOKING ROOM at the HOSPITAL

Long Before Joe Camel, sultry Hollywood vixens and swingin' cats hawked lozenge-like smokes for our good friends at R.J. Reynolds & Company.

Fun Small Print:
"The thorough test of any cigarette is steady smoking. Smoke only Camels for the next thirty days... And see how mild Camels are, pack after pack... how well they agree with your throat as you steady smoke. See if you don't find Camel more enjoyable than any other cigarette you've ever smoked."

[daleo]

53. Big Macs agree wonderfully with my Aorta

"The thorough test of any hamburger is steady eating. Eat only Big Macs for the next thirty days... And see how mild Big Macs are, bite after bite... how well they agree with your aorta as you steady eat. See if you don't find Big Macs more enjoyable than any other hamburger you've ever eaten."

"I especially appreciate Big Mac mildness when I am training for a quadruple bypass. And let's not forget the added benefit of mad cow goodness."

[saigon68]

59. LOL--- Outrageous

Who says we don't have a sense of humor here.

[depakid]

47. I can think an excellent way to get the scum to leave

Post large pictures of the insides of slaughterhouses and meat packing facilities around he entrances- along with photos of people sick and/or dead from obesity and coronary heart disease.

I'm guessing that they'll voluntarily pick up and go.

[VegasWolf]

50. What's is really amazing is watching cardiac patients pulling along

their IV solutions as they trundle down in their bed robes
to walk outside and around a corner just to smoke a cigarette.
Our hospital doesn't have a McDonald's, but I can see people
in hospital robes trundling along with their IVs to stand in
line for a Big Mac three days after bypass surgery.

[Chicago Democrat]

52. I like mcdonalds..

dont hate me

[Dora]

54. Of course we don't hate you.

Just don't go hating the crackhead for liking his crack,
or the junkie for liking his smack,
or the alcoholic for for loving his Jack.

Vice is as vice does.

Fast food is vice disguised as diet. Some can control their vices, others aren't so good at it. I understand liking McD's. I'm hungry right now and thinking of a quarter pounder with cheese and a small fry. I'm hungry! Oooh. Such torment.

I still think that McD's fries are the best I've ever had. Cancerous and grease-laden, yes, but sooooo delicious.

[Bono71]

61. It is yummy...

But I wouldn't compare a crack-head to a Fat Guy, like me, who likes McDonald's. I have yet to know of anyone robbed or murdered by someone fiending for a double cheese burger and fries, with an apple pie for dessert.

[Dora]

93. I don't know anyone who's been murdered by a crackhead

But it happens.

I'm not saying that burgerfiends are shooting each other down in the parking lots to get the next Big Mac. But you see, burgerfiends don't have to - there's plenty of supply to meet their demand. Burgers, fries, and fried pies are all legal and cheap.

The differences are scale, effects of use, and user self-control.

Vice is vice.

[Bake]

75. MickeyDee is one of my occasional vices.

I do love a QP/C and fries. But I don't do it every day -- hell, maybe once every couple of weeks.

So I doubt I'm externalizing my health-care costs to anybody else with that. If one of the posters up in the thread wants to take that to its logical end, the government has to dictate and **monitor** EVERYONE'S diet, exercise, etc.

Sorry folks, but I'm an adult and I don't need a nanny.

Of course, I do have other vices I indulge more regularly. Think I'll go have a smoke now.

Bake

[depakid]

77. You must not have read the post very clearly

McDonalds markets to CHILDREN. They do it insidiously with the help of hired guns- trained child psychologists.

My main "beef" is that I don't want kids getting hooked on the garbage- or have parents badgered to take them there. Kids (unlike some adults) don't have defense mechanisms against sophisticated fast food propaganda. Indeed, they probably can't even be taught to- because their brains haven't reached an advanced enough stage of cognitive development until maybe 10-12.

Do you really support that? do you really like paying for it- because as it stands- you do pay for it. One way or another.

Personally, I don't care what you eat- if you want to eat ground beef (and rat feces and whatever else makes its way into the grinder) and risk mad cow or e-coli or lysteria- or campylobacter- that's OK by me- I happen to think it's utterly disgusting- but there's no accounting for taste (and that's not what the argument is all about).

[Bono71]

78. This is silly...

Parents are responsible for what their kids eat, not Mickie Dees.

If MacDonalds wants to hire experts to help them market, IT IS THEIR RIGHT AND IT IS SMART BUSINESS.

Let the parents have some backbone, for crying out loud.

[depakid]

91. I think you're pretty naive

but that seems to be the case with a lot of "personal responsibility" types.

Trouble is-

1. I don't think you understand the nature or intention of their marketing practices very well. What they're doing is creating a psychological addiction to fast food. once formed, it's not an easy habit to break. I don't see that as very different that cigarette or alcohol advertising to children- the effects are the same.

2. It's NOT THEIR RIGHT to harm children with what have proven to be dangerous products. They should be held accountable for that- or at the very least- not be taxpayer subsidized for doing it.

3. Parents are forced to do all sorts of things to protect children. Child safety seats are a perfect example- as are helmets and mandatory school attendence laws. The reason? Because there are a lot of stupid parents out there who either don't know or don't care about the consequences of their behavior. Letting kids become obese and develop diabete or osteoporosis is a form of child neglect, IMHO- and the state certainly has a duty to curtail child neglect.

4. This is a public health issue- and again, there are all sorts of laws in place to protect the public health that people say are intrusive on personal behavior. Mandatory vaccinations come to mind. Smoking prohibitions indoors- I could rattle of a dozen or so. I don't see stopping the promotion of fast food as any different.

5. Whatever you argue- it comes back to economics. "mickie dees" (as you cutely call them) is externalizing their costs of doing business onto all of us. I think that's bad policy- although in America, I suppose you could say it's "good business." Good for them- anyway- but not for the rest of us....

[Bono71]

96. Lol...having a soda "harms" you...should we outlaw pesi, coke,

what about snickers? How about count chocula? How long do you think these products have been around?

Again, read Dostoyevsky, it will do you a world of good, might even change your life. I would suggest Crime and Punishment to start.

[depakid]

97. Did I say anything about "outlawing?"

but- come to think of it- the argument for at the very least stopping giving tax breaks to fast food companies to market to kids certainly applies to coke & pepsi.

As to Dostoyevsky- I didn't care for Crime and Punishment very much. I liked the Brother's K a lot, though.

[Bono71]

98. Good, now that i know you have read THE MAN,

I know that at least, you're somewhat ok :).

As for restricting their advertising rights (as opposed to an outright ban) I am against this. Number 1, in my view (though probably not the view of SCOTUS) it is a restriction of free speech. Secondly, again, we can go in circles here, it is up to the parents to make sure their kids eat well. Having Mickee Dees once a week won't kill you. Heck, my brother was a division one athelete and my mom treated us to dairy queen (Mmmmmm, chili dogs) once a week.

[depakid]

101. We'll have to agree to disagree

on the issue I guess. Although Brothers K is one of the finer books ever written (that I'm sure we agree on) interestingly enough, most Russians think Puskin was their greatest writer. Eugene Onegin was alright I guess and his short stories were pretty good- but compared to Dostoevsky and all that he's influenced.

I guess I don't understand most Russians.

[VegasWolf]

118. I had a good friend, a Russian mathematician, who said Puskin

captured the Russian soul.

[Dora]

100. Not very long.

"What about snickers? How about count chocula?" Do you want some cheesefries to go with that whine?

These foods you suggest have not been around long at all, and people who don't eat these foods (or eat them as part of a balanced, self-prepared diet) are healthier than those people whose diet is limited to mass-produced processed-corn people-feed. American diets were very different 50 years, 30 years, even 20 years ago. I'll admit that "junk" food has always been around, fats have always been tantalizing, and we people are monsters for sweet things. Even Mother Goose has Jack Sprat who would eat no fat, and his wife who would eat "no lean."

The American agricultural industry (which includes fast food corporations IMHO) has profited at the expense of our national health, and it's foolish to argue that people have a "choice" in the matter, especially when they're trained from birth (by virtue of incessant advertising and marketing efforts) to expect that food is made for us instead of by us, and that it comes from a company in Indiana, Iowa, or Wall Street, instead of the farmer the next county over.

If you're into movies, I recommend "Super Size Me," this year's documentary on a 30-day McD's binge. If you'd prefer to read, I understand that Eric Schlosser's "Fast Food Nation" is quite an eye opener. I haven't read the book myself, but I did have an opportunity to hear him speak this year, and I find his voice credible and coherent.

(Please note that I recommended reading/viewing materials and I did it without any sort of "do you a world of good" snidery or intellectual pretension)

[Bono71]

102. Those foods have been around since at least the 70s...not to make you

feel old, but that was 30 years ago.

[Dora]

104. Yeah, that's my point.

Sigh. It doesn't take much more than a song on the radio to make me feel old. And I'm not old, I'm 35.

My point is that 30 years isn't a long time, not when compared to the amount of time that people have been eating.

I guess I'm not done ranting yet.

When did chronic disease rates start climbing? When did MS, lupus, CFS, and diabetes start skyrocketing? When did children start hitting obesity before kindergarten? When did McDonald's invent the jumbo fries in the red cardboard sleeve? When did super-sizing stop being a gimmick and become a consumer expectation?

Tobacco is legal, but the tobacco industry is required to let us know that smoking is bad for us, that nicotine is addictive, that tars are nasty things that cause cancers, that cigarettes cause teeny tiny babies to have asthma, etc. I smoked for 17 years, even knowing all of this. I smoked because I looked cool with a cigarette, and I liked the way I felt when I smoked.

Alcohol is legal, but the alcohol producers are required to tell us that alcohol impairs judgement and causes bad things to happen to unborn babies. "Drink responsibly" they tell us. Yet there's an onslaught of new popsicle flavored liquors (sour apple! vanilla! chocolate!) and people are bemoaning the fact that college students are killing themselves on drinking binges and wondering why underage drinking rates are high.

It's only fair that McD's and their brethren should be compelled (yes, compelled) to adhere to the same public danger-of-use notification. Instead, they're allowed to sell us the dream of ease and happy families.

And we eat it up, with ketchup and mustard.

[Bono71]

110. You are a rational person...

People know that fast food makes you fat. They are not forced to buy the food. Almost all food can be bad for you if too many calories are consumed. Even fast food provides some nutritional value...which distinguishes it from cigarettes.

[Dora]

111. There are those who could argue that nicotine

has its own functional place in the pharmacoepia.

My opinion; I think that 30 days of smoking a pack of Marlboro Lights or American Spirit Yellows a day (while eating well) does less damage to the body than eating fast food thrice a day for 30 days.

[VegasWolf]

116. "SuperSize Me" was a really interesting movie, almost makes you sick. n/t

[True_Blue]

117. McD's fries never get old

You can find them in the car 6 months later and they will look just as fresh as the day you bought them.

[VegasWolf]

105. Guess I'll have to try a McD hamburger sometime. Can you get wine with

your meal?

[Dora]

106. Not in this country.

But you probably could in France.

[VegasWolf]

112. No wine, barbaric, I'll just forget about McD's then. Thanks.

[VegasWolf]

57. McDonald's has perfected queuing theory. They hire computer

scientists to figure out exactly how many burgers to keep
luke warm under the heating lamp and estimated time to
total flaccid taste. Give me a good restaurant burger
any time, with a glass of red wine.

[Bono71]

62. The genius of McDonald's isn't always the tatse (which I admit,

I love)...it's in the real estate, baby...they own probably 20% of the best locations in any town (usually on the corner of a light).

The could stop selling hamburgers and start flipping real estate tomorrow.

[coolhandlulu]

74. Some other interesting facts...

I work at one of the Cleveland Clinic hospitals as an agency nurse. Other big changes are in the works too... such as banning cigarette smoking on the property of all Cleveland Clinic hospitals and "encouraging" nurses who are obese to have gastric bypass surgery by paying for the surgery. It really doesn't sound right to me. I'm sure we will all agree that smoking and obesity are not conducive to a healthy lifestyle, but people do have the right to live freely. The bottom line is where will it end? Will they refuse to hire or insure employees that smoke or are obese?

[Bridget Burke]

76. Encouraging gastric bypass surgery is worrying....

It's a pretty radical procedure, to be used when more "natural" methods of weight control have failed.

The hospital is entirely within its rights to ban smoking on the premises. Employees can go off hospital property to smoke on their breaks. I trust the hospital has some smoking cessation classes for their employees.

[SoCalDem]

79. The clinic should just hang BIG pictures near McDonalds

that graphically show a cracked open chest and others of clogged arteries.. They could caption them.. You ARE what you eat...Try the salad..hold the dressiing :)

Or they could post warnings in the non-franchised areas that tell it like it is.. The Cleveland Clinic has FACTS to back up their statements, and it IS their clinic.

They can make it "unpleasant" for MCDee, and they may WANT to leave :)

[tx_dem41]

81. I think we all agree that it IS their clinic.

The only problem some of us is that the clinic is breaking the lease that they have signed with McDonald's. Other than that, they have the right to do what they want to.

[SoCalDem]

83. I say.. keep the lease.. hang the pictures..

The "market" will decide:)

[Bono71]

85. I would argue as McD's attorney that hanging the pictures breached

the lease...

[SoCalDem]

87. Not if they are in the Hospital's space.. They ARE a heart clinic

and it's commonly known that food affects heart health.. It would be entirely within their rights to "inform" their patients and visitors..

I am NOT suggestiing that they put the pictures up inside the McD space..

[Bono71]

88. Understand now. n/t

[SoCalDem]

108. Blow ups of these could make people think twice

[Not_Giving_Up]

94. Texas Children's Hospital in the Medical Center in Houston

has a McDonald's in the basement. In '94, my son spent four days in the hospital, and Mickey D's was all I ate. My husband would go down to the basement and get it for me, I refused to leave the room.

[Blue_Tires]

99. this was on NBC news last night

and my #1 unanswered question, was, WHO the hell even approved them setting up in the clinic??? They're already 10 years into a 20-year lease??? did ANYONE think of that delicious, fat-filled, hi-cholesterhol irony before they let them come in???

THAT was the time to start asking questions about conflicts and taking action, not 10 years down the road, because fast food has been known to be a proven killer since the 80s...the hospital made this bed, so they have to lie in it...either don't renew the lease, or just buy off the rest of the contract

[samtob]

109. But doesn't the clinic get a lot of business

from McDonalds? Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. :crazy:

[VegasWolf]

113. I heard they use "plastic" kinves and forks at McDonalds. n/t

[Barkley]

120. Are hospitals replacing their cafeteria's w/ McD's to save money?