AP: Yushchenko Sure Gov't Poisoned Him

[wicket]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041216/ap_on_re_eu/ukraine_election

Opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko said Thursday that he was sure he was poisoned by the Ukrainian government.

In an interview with The Associated Press, Yushchenko pinpointed for the first time, when and where he believed he was poisoned with dioxin: a Sept. 5 lunch with the head of the Ukrainian security service, Ihor Smeshko, and his deputy, Volodymyr Satsyuk.

"That was the only place where no one from my team was present and no precautions were taken concerning the food," he said in an interview with The Associated Press. "It was a project of political murder, prepared by the authorities."

A parliamentary commission that investigated Yushchenko's mysterious illness in October said he had complained of pains after meeting with Smeshko, but it also listed other places he ate or drank that day. Smeshko promised the secret service would investigate.

[Paleocon]

1. He's a liar....

No one poisened him.

He's a liar.

[wicket]

3. ok, then what happened to his face??

[theEmpireNeverEnded]

20. his doctor doesn't think he was poisoned

The chief medical doctor at the clinic, who supervised and had first-hand knowledge of Yushchenko's case, was Dr. Lothar Wicke. I put that in the past tense because, on December 9, Dr. Wicke resigned. It seems that his skeptical remarks concerning the unproven status of the "poisoning" accusations had proved injurious to his health. At a news conference held just after Yushchenko's first visit to Rudolfinerhaus, Dr. Wicke had accused unnamed individuals not on the medical staff of spreading "medically falsified diagnoses concerning the condition of Mr. Yushchenko." He also pointed to the complete lack of any evidence that the candidate had been poisoned, either deliberately or otherwise. This did not endear him to the Yushchenko crowd.

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/

[Ms. Clio]

23. Right--all the other doctors are lying and so are the lab tests

'There is no doubt about the fact that Yuschenko's disease has been caused by a case of poisoning by dioxin,' said Dr Michael Zimpfer, director of the private Rudolfinerhaus clinic.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/ukraine/story/0,15569,1372108,00.html

Yuschenko poisoned, say doctors

"There is no doubt," Dr Michael Zimpfer, president of the Rudolfinerhaus clinic where Yushchenko is being treated, told a news conference."There were high concentrations of dioxin, most likely orally administered."

He said the dioxin poisoning had been confirmed on Saturday by a laboratory in Amsterdam, which had analysed a blood sample.

http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_world_story_skin/463819%3fformat=html

[Flammable Materials]

5. Sure ...

... and Wellstone had a little flying mishap.

... and you just can't pull Bush away from books about goats.

[wicket]

6. and journalists really can die from...

...multiple gunshots to the head and it's called suicide.

[radwriter0555]

8. And enron accountant whistleblowers & scientists who know that yellowcake

really WASN'T a factor in bush's illegal invasion of iraq.

[Paleocon]

10. Why are you siding with the side that the Bush cronies are???

???

[kostya]

16. Yeah, what about that! I mean we really should be siding

with Putin, right??? Thinking I find works better than knee jerk reaction. - K

[genieroze]

68. We are on the side of truth.

I don't care what * thinks or wants in power. I think the reason Putin and * don't like each other is because they are alike. I wouldn't put something like this above *. I could see the neocons in this country doing something like this. * is against Putin because * can't take advantage and control him. That doesn't mean Putin isn't a dirtbag.

[DrWeird]

12. And I really believe you.

You seem really on top of things.

[Ms. Clio]

18. And so are his Austrian doctors, right?

And dioxin doesn't cause every single one of the symptoms he is suffering from, including chloracne?

YOUR medical degree is from where?

It's "poisoned," doctor.

[Paleocon]

26. So he ate the poison in his soup?

Chlorine in his soup and he didn't smell it or taste it?

Yeah... That makes sense...

[Menshevik]

28. You can't taste or smell dioxin

So yeah, it makes sense

[daleo]

30. A medical school prof on CNN said it had a metallic taste

At least in the concentrations mooted about here. That was on Sunday I think. Here is something from CBS on the subject.

"He told CBS News Early Show Co-Anchor Harry Smith that a metallic taste Yushchenko noticed in a meal he ate with Ukraine' security chief was consistent with dioxin poisoning. He said Yushchenko developed stomach ulcers and debilitating back pain shortly after the meeting."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/14/world/main661051.shtml

On edit: Here's the CNN link:

SPENCER: Right. Now, is it easy to put dioxin into a drink or into some food?

SIEGEL: Well, this type of dioxin, when you purify it, you can put it in oral form and yes, you can slip it into a drink or a soup, something that's thick where it wouldn't be detected although sometimes you can taste it. It has a metallic taste.

http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0412/11/cst.02.html

[Menshevik]

31. odd

I was listening to NPR on Saturday and they had a prof from UTexas med school who said he wouldn't have been able to taste or smell it.

Oh well.

[daleo]

32. It probably depends on the dose

And of course, who you are listening to. There may not be much basic reliable science on the subject of high doses of dioxin. I think it has mostly been studied in reference to bio-accumulation of low doses, environmental consequences, that sort of thing. I think there have been some high doses in industrial accidents, but only a few isolated cases, though.

On edit - I think the industrial accidents were from powder in the air or physical contact rather than by mouth though.

[Paleocon]

33. Those concentrations would have been like an oil slick...

This whole thing is fishy...

Who wouldn't notice an oil slick in their soup?

[Ms. Clio]

40. So where did you get your medical/science degrees again?

What makes you an expert?

Why do you know more than the doctors and the Amsterdam lab that confirmed the diagnosis?

MEDICAL experts have confirmed that Viktor Yushchenko, Ukraine’s opposition leader, was poisoned in an attempt on his life during election campaigning, the doctor who supervised his treatment at an Austrian clinic said yesterday.

“This is no longer a question for discussion,” Dr Korpan said. “We are now sure that we can confirm which substance caused this illness. He received this substance from other people who had a specific aim.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1393172,00.html

Yuschenko poisoned, say doctors

said the dioxin poisoning had been confirmed on Saturday by a laboratory in Amsterdam, which had analysed a blood sample.

http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_world_story_skin/463819%3fformat=html

Doctors prove Yuschenko was victim of poisoning

Last night, the source in the Yuschenko campaign said he did not think that the Russian government - the firm and overt backers of Yuschenko's opponent, Viktor Yanukovich - were involved. But he added: 'This was the option for people who did not want him to qualify' as president. He said they had been getting information about an attempt to assassinate Yuschenko since July from various sources.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/ukraine/story/0,15569,1372108,00.html

[Paleocon]

49. Read this, it explains everything...

http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=4164

[Ms. Clio]

62. Oh, okay

One article by Justin Raimundo, and that explains everything.

Got it.

I wish that sort of simplistic evidence and interpretation was satisfactory for my day job.

[Paleocon]

66. Actually he's written about three or four about this incident...

So yes, three or four articles by Justin Raimundo explain everything.

I'd trust him and his sources before I'd trust the "mainstream media".

[genieroze]

69. Depends on what kind of soup it was. eom

[Ms. Clio]

39. How do you know what it tastes like? Why don't you try some

and get back to us on that?

I don't know how it ended up in his body--the fact remains that his dioxin level is 1,000 times higher than normal.

[daleo]

43. But how it got into his body is a salient fact for discussion

It is reasonable to suspect the opposition forces, but you can't take that for granted in today's world.

[Ms. Clio]

44. Oral ingestion actually seems most likely

According to this article: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041211/hl_afp/ukrainevoteyushchenko_041211204100&e=3&ncid=

Only infinitely small amounts of dioxin are needed to cause serious disease. Its extreme toxicity results from the fact that once inside the human cell, it is difficult to eradicate.


And according to this one: http://www.news-leader.com/today/1212-Candidatep-248792.html


"All the signs look like the last deliberate poisoning I saw," said Dr. Arnold Schecter, a dioxin specialist at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas. "It's perfectly consistent."

Unlike the immediate reactions caused by more common poisons such as arsenic or cyanide, dioxin's symptoms are delayed from two days to two weeks after exposure, no matter what the dosage, Schecter said. A single drop on food would be enough to have sickened Yushchenko, he said.


Schechter also says in this article, http://media.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A58049-2004Dec11?language=palm&vendor=avantgo

Arnold Schecter, a dioxin expert at the University of Texas School of Public Health at Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas, said dioxins can be highly effective poison in people who are sensitive to their effects. If Yushchenko was deliberately given dioxin, it was done by someone who "was very clever and very knowledgeable," Schecter said.

"If someone put a drop of pure dioxin in his food, he wouldn't taste it, he wouldn't see it and a few days later he'd start to get sick," Schecter said.

"If you are trying to kill someone quickly, it's not the way to go," he said. "But if you want to disable someone and want to do it subtly and have it happen days or weeks or months after you have contact with someone, this can do it," Schecter said. "Plus there are very few labs in the world that can accurately detect dioxin in the blood."

[daleo]

45. On the subject of taste, there are also these quotes

SPENCER: Right. Now, is it easy to put dioxin into a drink or into some food?

SIEGEL: Well, this type of dioxin, when you purify it, you can put it in oral form and yes, you can slip it into a drink or a soup, something that's thick where it wouldn't be detected although sometimes you can taste it. It has a metallic taste.

http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0412/11/cst.0...

"He told CBS News Early Show Co-Anchor Harry Smith that a metallic taste Yushchenko noticed in a meal he ate with Ukraine' security chief was consistent with dioxin poisoning. He said Yushchenko developed stomach ulcers and debilitating back pain shortly after the meeting."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/14/world/main661...

So, the idea that he would neither taste nor see it is in dispute. Yushchenko himself claimed to have tasted something, as did his wife when she kissed him later that night.

Bio-accumulation of dioxin is an important issue, and that is why environmentalists have raised alarms about it, although this is generally the accumulation over long periods of time of small amounts.

As a way to kill someone, it doesn't make sense. Quoting one of your links:

"Another expert, Olaf Pepke, a chemist in Hamburg, Germany, who has studied thousands of cases of dioxin poisoning, said he knows of no one who has died of dioxin poisoning itself."

It might make sense as a sloppy amateur attempt at assassination (not likely a security agency then) or a sort of psychological electoral warfare - essentially, make your political opponent sickly and unattractive. The problem is, that is just as likely to backfire, and create sympathy for the victim.

Personally, I still don't have a firm opinion on what happened or who did it, if it was intentional, for the reasons that I have stated. I guess the Bush era has just turned me into a skeptic in general.

[Ms. Clio]

60. Right, and Schenkel says it was meant to disable, not kill

Perhaps make him so sick he had to drop out of the race, and it would all look "natural."

As far as taste goes, how did people get poisoned back in the bad old days, when arsenic was freely available? It's amazing what you can get people to eat, apparently.

I don't know who did it, either--if you will notice, in one of my posts I quoted a Yuschenko rep who said they were not blaming their opponent, either.

It's an open question who did it--but the lab tests surely confirm that somebody did something to the guy.

[daleo]

75. It is true that it is an open question, and something happened to the man

Interestingly, someone I know mentioned that arsenic does seem to have somewhat similar symptoms to what happened to Yushchenko. He mentioned seeing a documentary about an area in Bangladesh with natural arsenic in the well water. It is in an area where the people have no choice but to drink that water, and he said they exhibited symptoms that looked similar to Yushchenco. Presumably though, arsenic would have been looked for and ruled it out pretty early on in the investigation.

As you say, the intent might have been to sicken or weaken him so he would drop out of the race or campaign poorly. Alternatively, someone who was unpracticed in the art of poisoning and had access to dioxin may have just assumed it would kill quickly.

I don't know how they got people to take poison in former days, but it used to be a big concern. "I Claudius" goes into it quite a bit, and "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds" has a chapter on "Slow Poisoners" as well.

[Ms. Clio]

76. I did a search on arsenic, too

And one of the symptoms after the poisoning has occurred is a metallic taste in the mouth. Which I thought was interesting, since Yuschenko's wife supposedly detected a strange taste on his lips when she kissed him.

I also thought of your possibility that someone might have expected the dioxin to kill him right away--after all, it's not a very common method, and there is not a huge body of literature on it.

Nor even a body of folk knowledge, as there was about arsenic. Among other things, I'm reading a book called Twisting in the Wind: The Murderess and the English Press, and arsenic was a widly popular choice for 19th century poisoners--at one point, a bill was even drafted in England to prevent its purchase by women.

[daleo]

77. Yes, I have found it interesting that we are hearing about poisoning again

It puts me in mind of the idea that I have heard, that the Bush administration was a sort of watershed when the U.S. moved from a Republican form of government to an overt Empire, much like Rome did at the time of the Caesars. Which made me think of "I Claudius" and Livea's use of poisoning. As you say, poisoning used to be a major concern, and it is interesting that it is making a comeback of sorts in the political realm.

[Ms. Clio]

78. That is quite intriguing

I can definitely see the connection to "I, Claudius" and imperial Rome, too. And poisoning does seem to be making a weird comeback--there were the rumors that Arafat was poisoned, too. And Bush supposedly has his own food tested, somehow.

[Paleocon]

50. You sure seem to know a lot about it....

:think:

I think I may know who is responsible!

[Ms. Clio]

61. It's called research--you might try it sometime

All of it done online, through simple google searches, and not just reading the first 2 or 3 hits.

[Paleocon]

27. Read this and tell me you still believe he was poisoned...

http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=4164

[liberalpragmatist]

65. Paleocon, why are you so anti-Yuschenko?

First off let me state what exactly I'm puzzled about. I personally do believe he was poisoned - I read what you posted and I found it interesting, but I still trust the advice of medical professionals more and the symptoms do seem to be quite consistent. Even so, there's nothing wrong with some healthy skepticism, so if you don't believe he was poisoned... well, fine, I don't have as big a problem with that.

But why are you rooting for the Yakunovich/Putin/Kuchma faction? Is it solely b/c they are disliked by the American right? Those guys are Putin's thugs who are crushing democracy through fraud and assassinations and attempting to revive the Soviet Union - not literally, but in effect - and not as a Communist power this time but a Fascist/Weimar one. I find it very hard not to root for Yuschenko in all this, even though of course he's not perfect. And it's not just the US right who's backing these guys - it's pretty much everybody in the world, especially Europe - the left and the right virtually everywhere outside Russia.

[Paleocon]

67. Good, fair question...

Actually I appear to be coming off as though I do favor one side or the other... I don't... It's not for us (the USA) to determine...

Truth is... I don't care what happens in the Ukraine. I don't care what happens in Moscow, and I really don't care what happens in Iraq. (With the exception that if I get to be on the opposite side of the NeoCons it's a bonus.)

It is my opinion that we (the USA) don't need to meddle in every election across the globe and that we don't need to support every dictator that we think will be friendly to us or overthrow every one that we think will be antagonistic...

I think an "America first" policy would be much better for us and everyone else across the globe.

[TankLV]

73. YOU'RE the liar! More proof as to exactly what type is was reported today

Seems someone need to do a little research - and it isn't me.

Only questions that had remained was exactly WHAT TYPE OF POISON was used. They are now certain it was the purest form of Dioxin.

It is being reported on NPR in a lengthy interview this morning.

The claim has ALWAYS been validated by the doctors - just the exzct type was the mystery.

[whistle]

2. Are any democrats accepting private luncheon invitations...

...from the White House?

[wicket]

11. They'd be wise not to!

[flordehinojos]

4. democrats and bush opposition people, be on notice that the same thing can

happen to you, will probably happen to you, except that soup poisoning is not as effective as "apparent suicide with multiple gunshot wounds to the head" ... so you may have to look for bullets more than for poisoned soup ... still keep your guards up...drink no soup, accept no tea, walk no subterranean passages to the real president's desk when you are at the white house.

[bobbieinok]

42. no small planes, no lonely car trips at nite

[radwriter0555]

7. I have a hunch this was a US hit with a Putin influence It's designed to

scare us again...

It's tied into the school massacre. The pieces of the puzzle are all there, it's just finding more of them, and fitting them together.

[kostya]

19. You're serious, right? Any black helicopters circling where you are?

[NNN0LHI]

22. Who's side has Fox news been taking on this so-called "orange revolution"?

Just curious if you know? Thanks in advance.

Don

[Paleocon]

34. The NeoCons are on the "orange" side...

So I'm on the other side...

[NNN0LHI]

36. Figured. Those are the same folks who gave us Saddam and Osama

I can remember when most of America thought Saddam and Osama and his mujihadeen were the greatest people on earth (most of them won't admit it now though, the fucking hypocrite's) thanks to the same people I now see on TV talking about how wonderful the people behind the "orange revolution" are. I doubt it is mere coincidence.

Don

[Paleocon]

37. Thanks....

I was thinking I was going crazy...

Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle, etc....


The usual suspects...

[Ms. Clio]

63. I don't think you necessarily have to believe the neocons

To understand the guy was poisoned by SOMEBODY.

Maybe it was another rival in his own party.

[geek tragedy]

38. So you let the Neocons do your thinking for you. n/t

[NNN0LHI]

41. I don't understand what you are saying?

After watching the neo-cons in action for the past few years, I would say it would be a safe to bet that if they suggest that it is sunny outside, one had better start looking around for an umbrella. They have shown themselves to be nothing but lying thugs wearing suits. I know you were not responding to my post, but does what I say make sense to you?

Don

[geek tragedy]

46. The Devil always mixes the truth with his lies.

The correct approach is to treat the Neocons as though they have not spoken when trying to establish the truth.

[Paleocon]

48. He may mix truth with lies, but he's always got evil on his mind...

I don't let them "do my thinking for me", but I can usually be found on the opposite side of the issues...

[NNN0LHI]

52. Thats kind of like trying to ignore an 800 pound gorilla in the room

I am not so sure I can do that.

Don

[elehhhhna]

9. It was the Soup Nazi.

[NNN0LHI]

13. Usually in these type cases the wife is the logical suspect. Ask any cop

She may have found a new hottie she likes better than him. It happens every day. Wonder if this schmuck has even considered the possibility?

Don

[daleo]

14. This seems odd

"That was the only place where no one from my team was present and no precautions were taken concerning the food,"...

So, the only time he isn't careful about poisoning is when he is dining with the government's secret police?

A day or two ago, he said he wouldn't make this a political issue, as their was no conclusive evidence yet one way or another. Today he is sure it was the government that poisoned him.

There is still a lot about this whole story that doesn't add up.

[zann725]

15. I don't doubt the REAL Yuschenko was poisoned...but are WE sure

the REAL Yuschenko survived the poisoning, and that the guy who's now talking on his behalf IS the 'real deal?' His eyes didn't appear the same color in the before and after photos posted here recently. In one they were green, in the other brown. His hair was brown in one,and grey in the other. While I realize the poisoning would make him extremely sick, I've watched video of him and he doesn't appear to have the same personal 'energy' either. Also something in the eyes is not the same either.

Someone above mentioned his wife. While I do not blame her for the poisoning, someone mentioned about a month ago on one of these threads that we should 'google' his wife, which I did...and learned that she originally lived in America, and worked in the State Dept. in Reagan's Admin? Plus America wanting so strongly to uphold the 'integrity' of his votes is curious.

[IA_Seth]

17. Wouldnt surprise me....DNA test? n/t

[OETKB]

21. Hold your powder dry

The back and forth in this discussion without proper facts seems to be getting the respose it is supposed to. Dioxin is a cumulative toxin so it is difficult to know what is going on. I say a pox on both houses(US and Russia) and we should just stay out of it. I don't feel like swallowing the agenda on either side without clearer proof.

[IA_Seth]

25. Hallelujah

I agree. I can't take either side's word in this affair. It is almost as bad as one of those military mystery novels that are so prevalent these days.

We have enough to worry about here at home.

[Laughing Mirror]

24. It's like watching a plot unfolding on Alias or Mission Impossible

Where whoever is responsible for this aimed to put a public face to a fraudulent election by turning this very handsome, very visible public man into an Elephant Man type monster the camera absolutely adores. Poison the poor man, cripple him, but don't kill him, he's too valuable.

I have no idea who did this, but if their intention was to divide and destabilize a country that happens to be in the middle of a power struggle between several major power blocs and to draw attention away from yet another fraudulent election pulled off by one of the major players, then so far they have succeeded. The episode somebody has produced is a success.

So far.

[plasticsundance]

29. Paleocon ... thanks

I love Justin Raimondo's work from antiwar.com. He does a great job of tearing into the logic of events on the geopolitical and geostrategical stage. :toast:

[Paleocon]

35. Thank you!

:)

[oblivious]

47. Two days ago, I believed he had been poisoned. Now I'm not so sure.

In fact, I'm starting to feel like a victim of propaganda.

The media reports listed above appear to be for Western consumption, the main sources being Times and AP. But they are leaving out an awful lot, apparently detailed in 'Frankfurter Allgemaine Zeitung' (FAZ), but in German and requiring payment. In Justin Raimondo's article (mentioned in posts 20 and 27 above), and in the blog below, also mentioned by Justin, we get the basics of the FAZ research. I've summarised what I thought were the most interesting points from these three sources below:

http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=4164

http://trans-int.blogspot.com/2004/12/strange-case-of-dr-wicke-or-questions.html

My summary:
It seems the clinic doctor in charge of his case was Dr Lothar Wicke. His diagnosis was that there was a complete lack of evidence that Yushchenko had been poisoned, either deliberately or otherwise. But then he received a number of death threats and other warnings from the Yushchenko gang.

From FAZ:
"Thereafter Yushchenko's people made clear to Wicke that he should not say anything more concerning the affair, since otherwise 'one would resort to other means against me and the hospital.' Dr. Wicke is also supposed to have received death threats at the time."

Dr Wicke, pointing out that he had a child to worry about, resigned rather than retract his statement that there was no evidence that Yushchenko had been poisoned.

Dr Wicke is no longer mentioned in AP, AFP, Observer and Times reports. Instead Dr Zimpfer is mentioned as the doctor in charge of the case, but he is actually just the admin chief of the clinic.

In some reports, like the Times, Dr Korpan, is said to be in charge of the case, but he does not even work for the clinic. He is a Ukranian doctor brought in by Yushchenko. He is a surgeon, not a poison specialist. He is the one who started the poisoning rumours, which were vehemently denied by Dr Wicke. Now Korpan is referred to as 'the physician treating Yushchenko', as if he is from this Austrian clinic.

Another thing that bothers me is that I haven't been able to find one of these stories that mentions the name of the clinic in Amsterdam that analysed the blood sample.

Finally, the Guardian report mentions that chloracne takes months to show up, and someone above mentioned that it takes a few days to see effects of dioxin poisoning. Yet his wife reports that this started within hours of the meal. Doesn't this ring a bell with any of these 'specialists'?

From The Guradian/Observer
...Yuschenko's symptoms are consistent with dioxin poisoning, which produces a severe form of acne called chloracne. Yet this can happen months after exposure when the body seeks to rid itself of the poison through the skin.

The Guardian mentions this in passing, hidden in the middle of the article. That's a pretty significant observation to be hidden away like that.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/ukraine/story/0,15569,1372108,00.html

Anyway, I think this deserves a big hmmmmmm.....

Thanks to Justin Raimondo and John Rosenthal for pointing these things out.

[Paleocon]

51. So there is at least one critical thinker here!

Bravo!

:)

Everyone is so quick to discount the media as "right wing whores" in every other instance, but here we are supposed to believe exactly what they tell us???

Somebody explain to me when it is appropriate to apply the double standard please...

[Laughing Mirror]

53. There is a very obvious double standard

When people are cheered on by corporate media (to the tune of ... how many millions of dollars did the National Endowment of Democracy spend on this rock-concerted mega-post-election Elephant Man extravangza) to root for one side or the other, in a country almost none of them know anything about, it is maybe not hard to see why.

Thanks for bravely questioning the mass propaganda.

[Paleocon]

54. LOL... WOW!!! It's spreading!

:)

[NNN0LHI]

55. Anyone who is old enough remembers the same media convinced...

...most of America that Osama and Saddam were great fellows during the 1980's. Yea, they did.

Don

[Paleocon]

56. I'm not even that old, but I have a healthy skepticism....

of anything the mainstream media is peddling!

:)

[NNN0LHI]

57. Ask a family member who IS old enough to remember and see IF they do

I bet they don't remember. Or maybe they just don't want to remember? Give it a try.

Don

[Paleocon]

58. OK, will do.

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it...

Or something like that...

[Paleocon]

59. I was in Elementray school during the first Iran-Iraq war...

I remember that we were taught to cheer on Iraq because they were the "small-underdog" and the meanies from big-powerful Iran had just taken US hostages...

The book 1984 couldn't be more relevant.... Any inconvenient facts bothering you? Send them down the memory hole!

[Ms. Clio]

64. Because it has nothing to do with "right wing whores"

Unless you believe that all the doctors and the Amsterdam lab and the dioxin expert Schenkel are all just outright lying. Why would they do that? What do they gain from that?

Just because it appears that the neocons are supporting this guy, does that make Putin, former head of the KGB, and his pick "the good guys?" That makes no sense.

Things are not even so black and white--maybe he was poisoned by someone else completely--a rival in his own party. There is a lot here that is unclear.

It may not have even been an assassination attempt, just intended to get him to withdraw for apparently "natural" reasons of health.

[plasticsundance]

70. But why would they make it so obvious?

Ms. Clio,

You wrote the following:

It may not have even been an assassination attempt, just intended to get him to withdraw for apparently "natural" reasons of health.

You're assuming that the alleged-culprits would have been betting that a political animal in the likes of Yushchenko would not get blood work or other health checks to determine the source of the illness.

They'd have to be pretty inept at their jobs, if these would-be-culprits took such a course of action. It would do more to expose them than help their cause.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I really don't remember anyone here posting that Putin was the good guy. I think the case to be made is that from past historical experiences, the Russian people are more attuned to propaganda than the US.

It's a question of merely identifying something for what it may very well-be. You're right to say we just do not know with all the intricacies, especially considering the IMF is perhaps not too happy with Yushchenko for defrauding them of money.

[Ms. Clio]

71. But was it so obvious? It took a while to confirm the diagnosis

Although all the symptoms, especially the chloracne, were highly suspicious. And he did get blood work, but the source remained undetermined.

According to Arnold Schecter, a dioxin expert at the University of Texas School of Public Health at Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas:

"If you are trying to kill someone quickly, it's not the way to go," he said. "But if you want to disable someone and want to do it subtly and have it happen days or weeks or months after you have contact with someone, this can do it," Schecter said. "Plus there are very few labs in the world that can accurately detect dioxin in the blood."

http://media.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A58049-2004Dec11?language=palm&vendor=avantgo

The classic symptoms of dioxin poisoning have now been confirmed by just such a lab test--I don't understand why anyone would doubt the guy actually was poisoned--however, I can surely understand questions concerning who did it, and why.

The IMF angle is one I had never heard of--very interesting, thanks.

[plasticsundance]

72. Ms. Clio ...

This information might be of interest ...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO411D.html

Yushchenko as Head of the Central Bank was responsible for deregulating the national currency under the October 1994 "shock treatment":

The price of bread increased overnight by 300 percent

electricity prices by 600 percent

public transportation by 900 percent.

the standard of living tumbled

http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/2000/060002.shtml

Ukraine's Cabinet of Ministers has been drawn into the affair as well because its newly appointed prime minister, Viktor Yuschenko, directed the NBU until December 1999.

Mr. Yuschenko's press secretary, Natalia Zarudna, said that in consultations with the NBU she had been assured that the earlier independent audit had reviewed all operations conducted by the NBU in 1997 and had found "no crime there."

In May 1999 Mr. Yuschenko came under heavy criticism from the Banking Committee of the leftist-dominated Ukrainian Parliament for questionable investments of the NBU's currency reserves in a Cypriot off-shore account of the Credit Suisse-First Boston Bank. After a parliamentary hearing, during which Mr. Yuschenko was charged with not reporting the whereabouts of $85 million, a floor vote cleared the bank director of any improprieties. Subsequently, Mr. Yushchenko reported the return of the full investment plus profit.

[Ms. Clio]

74. Thanks, plasticsundance

Very informative and intriguing. Whenever the IMF and the World Bank get involved, a country's economic collapse is sure to follow. All in all, the poor people of Ukraine truly seem to be between a rock and a hard place when it comes to their choices here.

And it looks like there are wheels within wheels--perhaps a double or triplecross of some kind, because of the allegations of embezzlement.

We'll probably never know the entire truth.

[oblivious]

79. Sundance, that global research article was an eye-opener.

Thanks for that.