LAT: This Season, Greetings Are at Issue

[many a good man]

RALEIGH, N.C. — This year, as Christmas season swung into gear, Pastor Patrick Wooden's followers fanned out to shopping malls across Raleigh to deliver a muscular message of holiday cheer: As Christian shoppers, they would like to be greeted with the phrase "Merry Christmas" — not a bland "Happy Holidays" — and stores that failed to do so would risk losing their business.

Nearly six weeks later, some citizens in Raleigh are seething over what they see as an attempt to force religion into the public square.

But others say "Merry Christmas" is rolling off their tongues more easily and more often than in previous years.

<snip>

In pre-Colonial days, English authorities looked on the holiday as a riot of drunkenness and hooliganism. American Puritans rejected it completely, preferring to get up and go to work. Not until the 1820s and '30s, with the holiday "getting rowdier and rowdier and more destructive," did Americans redefine it as a safe and private family time, Restad said — the "old-fashioned Christmas" celebrated in carols and Currier & Ives prints.


more

Happy Saturnalia, Everybody !!!

[tanyev]

1. Well, if the Christians would wear some sort

of special symbol sewn on to their clothing, then the retailers would know who needs to be greeted with "Merry Christmas." Problem solved.

[signmike]

2. Hahaha, yes, the Ultimate Solution on the way

:evilgrin:

[VegasWolf]

6. How about a mandatory fish on the forehead? n/t

[reprobate]

7. Yes, branded there.

[Cha]

20. This fundie

bitch who volunteers at our co-op has a "Jesus" pin tacked on to her blouse and is the meanest crone around.

[genieroze]

35. I'm a Christian and Happy Holidays is fine with me. eom

[tanyev]

49. Actually, I'm a Christian, too.

Just trying to make a point about how ludicrous these Christian Taliban types are getting to be.

[many a good man]

3. "Muscular" Merry Christmas versus "bland" Happy Holidays

I admit I am "seething over" "muscular" Xtns in the public square. It almost makes me wanna get drunk and hooliganize...

[vpigrad]

4. People that force us to hear..

things like "Merry Christmas" when going to the store to buy toothpaste are the reason I stock-up on everything the second week of November so I don't have to go to the store from then until the first week of January. It's just disgusting to go in stores in the month of December.

Aside: I had to go in a mall yesterday to go to an Apple Store to get a computer for work replaced. It made me sick on my stomach to see all of the religion that is getting forced down our throats. Even some of the Apple employees were doing the same. I complained to the Apple manager about the red hats with white fir that some of the employees were wearing. Are they selling computers or selling religion?

[AliciaKeyedUp]

5. Going to the mall is optional

It's not forced down your throat. It is part of the mass culture. You can shop early or online if you wish.

[renaissanceguy]

31. This is America.

Our country is supposed to protect the minorities, not marginalize them. Why should anyone be forced to shop online, instead of enjoying their local mall?

I think the Christians are making too much out of this issue. Christmas is a holiday, so is Hanukkah. What's so wrong with acknowledging both?

To anyone bothered by Merry Christmas greeters... simply say Happy Hanukkah back at them. It'll take them by surprise, I'm sure.

[genieroze]

36. Good Idea!

How about Happy belated Ramadan?

[AliciaKeyedUp]

42. No one is forced to do anything

Nor are they forced NOT to do anything. If a store wants to wish customers Merry Christmas, that is their choice. It is a PRIVATE business after all.

Or, if they want to wish me Happy Hanukkah, that is their choice also.

[Ms_Mary]

39. Perhaps you should consider expressing the tolerance you seek.

You are pretty dismissive of the altertnate POV but I know you keep posting this b/c you are bothered by intolerance. Think about it.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

43. Didn't dismiss it

Simply pointed out that there are options.

[alfredo]

28. Most of the modern Christmas is the pagan aspects.

That's why I don't really care. I just avoid the whole thing. I try to make it a game. If I can avoid hearing "White Christmas" I consider the season to be a success.

Saturnalia is here.

[Bridget Burke]

51. Good sarcasm--although a bit subtle for most....

Obviously, "red hats with white fir" have no relationship whatsoever with the Christian religion. But you're giving a pretty good impression of a religion hating far-left liberal--soon to be marginalized, no doubt.

Although hats with tree branches sound a bit awkward. Perhaps you meant "fur"?

[tblue37]

53. Red hats and white fur

are Santa Claus, not "religion." And though Santa Claus is a commercialized, degenerate version of an actual bishop (St. Nicholas), any connection to said bishop and his religious role has long since been lost. The only religion red hats and white fur imply is the religion of materialism and greed.

I recommend historian Stephen Nissbaum's book The Battle for Christmas. It tells the entire history of the development of the modern "family" Christmas, including the pagan origins of Christmas celebrations in the seasonal festivals of agricultural societies. You can read all about the drunkenness and hooliganism (misrule) that got the holiday banned by the Puritans, and you can see how the present-day charity drives (including Salvation Army bell ringers) developed out of ancient rituals.

Fascinating book indeed.

BTW, I avoid Christmas like the plague.

And an amusing point: as a college English instructor I often find myself misspelling "Santa Claus" as "Santa Clause." I am far more concerned with clauses than with Christmas, so I sort of automatically add that "e" and then have to go back to correct it.

[Art_from_Ark]

56. What do red and white hats have to do with religion?

Even here in Buddhist Japan, the salesgirls often wear such garb at this time of year. And no one thinks of them as having any religious connotations. But they certainly add a little "ho ho ho" to my holidays:D

[phylny]

62. self-delete, duplicate :)

[depakid]

8. Raleigh, NC--

Why does this not surprise me?

For a supposedly well educated area- and I mean supposedly- the fundamentalist grip on the people there never ceases to amaze me. It's like there's something in the water.

Not too many years back I attended a commencement at NC State. Sitting around me were Hindus and Muslims- along with my Southern Conservative family members and what do they do to open the ceremony? Engage in a heavily denominational prayer session for 5-10 minutes....

I thought to myself- State University- Babtist prayer session- these folks have no respect for the law of the land or anyone else but themselves.

[rucky]

9. You should see how they open seesions of the US Congress nowadays

in Jesus name amen.

[yardwork]

30. News Bulletin - I live near Raleigh and most of us don't agree with this

[VegasWolf]

Maybe this is why the malls are doing so poorly this year. If anybody

shows up, they are immediately attacked by "muscular" christian
zealots proselytizing their insane beliefs.

[VegasWolf]

10. dup

[Cocoa]

11. this is what Christmas is all about

shoving it down the throats of people that don't want it. :toast:

[Igel]

12. I don't "have" a holiday between October and April.

At least none that I celebrate, in any religious or secular sense.

"Merry Xmas" is no more or less offensive to me than "Happy Holidays".

Xtian, but no fish symbol, thank you. Also no cross.


But it's silly for me to object to other people expressing sincere, or hypocritical, wishes. (Let's not forget that "Happy Holidays" was infrequent or unheard of when I was a kid ... it gained popularity, I think, primarily because some people found "Merry Christmas" offensive or parochial. It was self-censorship.)

[TahitiNut]

13. Appallingly self-centered.

All of the 'discussion' I've heard on this issue presumes a religious orientation of the greeter, not the greeted. On Crossfire, the posture of the right was their own faith, not the faith of the person(s) being greeted. To my Jewish friends, I say 'Happy Hanukkah'; 'Merry Christmas' to my Catholic/Christian friends; and 'Season's Greetings' to my secular friends. When people focus on the commercial, they're focusing on an empty (predatory) 'greeting' where the purpose isn't to convey good will, but to obtain some benefit.

Here's the best seasonal 'greeting' I've ever found ...




May the child who lives within us
Gently teach us how to find
Joy and trust in one another --
Lasting faith in all mankind.

[0007]

44. Best one I've ever seen - 'Tis indeed a keeper!

I'm gonna use it for my Christmas cards.

[magellan]

48. Agreed

We're supposed to respect everyone's beliefs in this country. If I don't know someone's religious background I wish them "Happy Holidays". Otherwise I go with whatever is appropriate, "Merry Christmas", "Happy Chanukah", "Happy Kwanzaa", etc.

The controversy over what to say is just another crock of sh*t meant to divide people. May the fleas of a thousand camels infest the armpits of whoever started it.

I like the greeting you found, TahitiNut!

[Behind the Aegis]

14. Man, am I fucking sick of these people!

This line in the article almost made me pop a vein! "There's one group of people who get bullied all the time, and that's Christians," he said. What the FUCK!?! What country is he in? China? He is right though, there is a culture war and they started it! They try to overwhelm us at every turn. I for one, am SICK OF IT! I will fight them at every turn! These people are almost as bad as the Taliban! They are not happy unless they are shoving their beliefs down others' throats, but try to be INCLUSIVE and they scream discrimination! They are fucking blights on this country!

[oldcoot]

29. The real victims

Didn't you know that so many Christians face discrimination in this country? For example, many Christians are afraid to have signs and crosses on their churches because they are afraid of community disapproval. Christians are also afraid to wear religious symbols and Christian businesses would never identify themselves with a fish because they are afraid of losing customers. Christians would never go door-to-door to talk to people about their faith because so many Americans look down on them and, yes, I am being sarcastic.

The real victims of this are the those poor people who work in retail. They are really in a no-win situation. If they wish their customers a "Merry Christmas," they risk offending those who are not Christian. If they wish their customers "Happy Holidays," they risk alienating their customers who are offended by the existence of religions other than Christianity.

[Behind the Aegis]

33. Giggle!

I knew you were being sarcastic and it made me giggle that you had to post that because others would miss that! What is happening with this situation is nothing more than the oppressor claiming oppression because they cannot force their desires onto others and are so uneducated they don't fully understand what real oppression is! (How is that for a run on thought?!)

It is so sad that the truly oppressed in this society get put on the 'back burner' because of people like this who scream so loud that they are the REAL victims. It is disgusting! It is also sad that a supposed "season of peace" has turned into a "worship my way or we will scream discrimination."

Equal rights for all! But, some are more equal than others!

[Nordic]

15. whadda buncha assholes

Man, if any of them came my way, they'd get a big nasty piece of my miind

[MisterP]

16. like the Jesus Fish in small-business logos and advertisements:

it's code to other fundamentalists that they're "one of us."
Fundamentalism replaces "good and evil" with "saved and unsaved"; it allows for martyrdom and murder with a clean conscience (or what's left of it).

[PROGRESSIVE1]

17. We have a local office supply store that is owned by a Hummer....

driving, right wing, Fundi/fascist, chickenhawk. I DO NOT shop there. I will boycott any business owned by Christian Funamentalists!

I hope Staples puts them out of business!

[Cha]

22. You have to shop somewhere but

I wonder what "Staples" proclivities are?

[bobbieinok]

25. big republican donor (read here on DU)

[0007]

63. .....more junior butt boys, yucking it up with USA USA kick raghead butt

[PROGRESSIVE1]

18. Gee, North Carolina. Where do I start with them.

It's the SOUTH at it again!

"Klan Land"

[AliciaKeyedUp]

23. How "Progressive" of you to blast an entire region of the country

Merry Christmas.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ms_Mary]

37. We have beautiful mountains, for one.

[Cha]

19. I was at work today and purposefully saying

"Season's Greetings" to customers in front of A fundie bitch(and she is..the meanest people I know are so called "ChristianS"..go figure).

And she was saying "MERRY CHRISTMAS!".

[Cha]

21. It's funny you say "Happy Saturnalia"..

when Christmas is in Capricorn ruled by Saturn.

[CJCRANE]

24. It's all mixed up anyway...

I mean, Jesus was apparently born in Israel, a desert country, yet his birth is celebrated by dressing up as a guy from Lapland/North Pole?

To be honest, it doesn't really matter how exactly it's celebrated or what it's called, it's a custom that's existed in cold Northern European countries for thousands of years (i.e. giving presents and eating lots of food in the middle of winter).

There was a similar storm in a teacup a few years ago in the UK when a city council decided to rename Christmas "Winterval" so as not to upset non-Christians.

[rainbow4321]

26. Neocons diss diversity

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/opinion/letters/sfl-brmail901dec14,0,3688741.story?coll=sfla-news-letters


The religious right claims that they cannot practice religion without overt symbols in public places. Nothing is further from the truth. They can express themselves and pray and hold whatever beliefs they choose. They just can't force the rest of us to listen and to accept it. And that is the real issue: The lack of respect by the religious right toward those who believe differently.

Today, we live in a pluralistic society composed of many different cultures and religions. Unlike earlier immigrants who spent their lives trying to be like white Christian Americans, today's immigrants want to retain their culture and their values and believe that religion does not belong in a secular society.

This has produced fear on the part of the evangelists who have become dogmatic and singular in their desire to promote their brand of religion to everyone, whether they want it or not. Putting God's name and God's purported words and symbols in public places and at public events will do little to improve values and much to teach our young people to disrespect diversity. It is already happening.

[Endangered Specie]

27. I live in Raleigh....

I can say that we have our fair share of nuts here... however, there are alot of us who are quite liberal, especially on the campuses in the triangle area.

[Ms_Mary]

38. Yeah, I think my brother is one of the 4 conservatives on his campus.

I keep trying to talk him out of it. Stubborn, stubborn boy.

[NYC]

32. Drunkenness and hooliganism?

Okay. Merry Christmas!

Excerpt from article:

In pre-Colonial days, English authorities looked on the holiday as a riot of drunkenness and hooliganism. American Puritans rejected it completely, preferring to get up and go to work. Not until the 1820s and '30s, with the holiday "getting rowdier and rowdier and more destructive," did Americans redefine it as a safe and private family time, Restad said — the "old-fashioned Christmas" celebrated in carols and Currier & Ives prints.

[many a good man]

40. Its the "desire not to offend" that is at issue here

Still, the last 20 years have seen a corporate trend toward generic holiday celebrations — brought about not through the law, since private businesses are free to decorate as they like, but by a desire not to offend, a retail expert said.

They think *'s "mandate" is a sign that they've won the right to offend others at will. The MSM can puff this up to something much more powerful than it really is and thereby goading them to even further extremes. We are seeing the last, gasping stabs by two dying American social forces, Christianity and White Privilege, actively rejecting the forces of modernity.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant so I suppose it could be a good thing that the right wing is so visibly in charge of politics and society right now...it will be clearer for voters to see who to blame for the economic crumbling, social division and loss of global political power. Welcome to the new american century...

[m0nkeyneck]

41. ppl need to lighten up ..on both sides

who cares how you’re greeted in a store? 12/25 means different things to different ppl and if your bothered by harmless phrase that might or might not match perfectly with your beliefs then i'd say the problem is internal.. advice: smile and get on with your day.

happy give me stuff day ;-)

[Johnny Noshoes]

54. LOL

"happy give me stuff day". So true this is America baby its all about the Benjamins :)
"The essence of Christianity is told us in the Garden of Eden history. The fruit that was forbidden was on the tree of KNOWLEDGE. The subtext is, All the suffering you have is because you wanted to find out what was going on. You could be in the Garden of Eden
if you had just kept your fucking mouth shut and hadn't asked any questions."
--The Great Frank Zappa,

[Toucano]

45. Boiled in his own pudding.

"Out upon merry Christmas! What's Christmas time to you but a time for paying bills without money; a time for finding yourself a year older, but not an hour richer... If I could work my will," said Scrooge indignantly, "every idiot who goes about with 'Merry Christmas' upon his lips should be boiled with his won pudding, and buried with a stake of holly through his heart. He should!""
-- Charles Dickens (A Christmas Carol)

Christmas is a scam. Scrooge was wise and logical about it before they used fear to persuade him. ;)

[AgadorSparticus]

46. i can't help but wonder if all this sudden concern for whatever greeting

floats your boat isn't some diversion to the lack of buying going on all around the country. it is a very dismal indicator of what is around the corner.

i'm waiting for the mediawhores to come out and blame it on the liberals. it is because we say "happy holidays" instead of "merry christmass" that no one's buying shit this year and it will be a bleak retail season. so if the economy goes bust, it's because the liberals insist on not greeting everybody and their dog with "merry christmas". you know, the whole wrath of god thing.

i may just have to start saying "merry xmas". :)

[bunkerbuster1]

64. you're WAITING for the mediawhores to blame the liberals?

sheeyit, mang, where you been? That's what this is all about!

I guess you must live in a blue state, but here in Red State Hell, it's all about them evil libruhl Acey-Ell-Youers stealin' christmas from us Gawd-feerin' folk.

Over the weekend, our local hillbilly rag ran an editorial cartoon that summed it up perfectly.

One guy on the street is struggling for words, and says: "M-m-m merry Ch-chr-christ..."

Two people see this, one says to the other, "Stutterer?"

Other guy says, "No... liberal!"

Make no mistake, this "Christmas under seige" shit is designed to marginalize anyone who didn't vote for W. Nothing more or less.

[AgadorSparticus]

65. so they are already blaming the lack of christmas spending on

liberals?

[bunkerbuster1]

66. Nah, not yet.

but I'm sure that'll be next, if the year-end retail numbers wind up in the toilet.

[kineneb]

47. Then how about "Happy Yule"?

Since the origins of winter celebrations pre-date the birth of Jesus, why not just use an old greeting? It will piss off everyone except those who get the joke.

And from this fourth-generation citizen of German ancestry: Happy Yule! Celebrate the return of the Sun (with _u_, not _o_). Put that greenery in your house and enjoy it. Light candles to celebrate the light. Have fun and stop banging your head on the wall.:party:

[Barkley]

50. Happy Kwanzaa Everyone!

US society is just too diverse to impose one narrow interpretation of Life.

Our society is use to this freedom and won't give up easily.

[Bridget Burke]

52. The whole issue is phony.

Links to the Dominionists who've been politicizing religion for the last few years have been pointed out in the numerous previous threads on the subject.

Anybody can use any greeting they prefer. However, nobody has a right to tell others what to say. In the retail setting, a religiously-neutral greeting is wisest.

[fortyfeetunder]

55. Some observations

Did anyone see 1st hr C-SPAN Wash. Journal On Dec 19? The topic was about whether Christmas was under attack...and I swear all the right wing wackos came out of the woodwork for the call ins...such as "this nation was founded on Christian principles"...or the SOB who suggested Muslims were the problem...

See here is my gripe, probably in concert with other posters. I have a fundamental problem with the commercialization of this holiday. I see Christmas merchandise in the stores as early as August and it never seems to let up.

To my Jewish friends, I recognize that Hanukkah is a minor holiday in their calendar, but the commercialization is eating at them too so this holiday, unfortunately at the same time of year, almost has "Christmas" status. And this goes for Ramadan (Eid-al Fitr), Diwali, and the winter solstice.

The irony of it all, was the first settlers who arrived here came to escape religious persecution and allegedly wanted to practice tolerance. Well, 300+ years later, I certainly don't see a willingness to practice tolerance, not for religion, race or gender.

We've really made a mess of it, eh?

[Bridget Burke]

59. Actually, some of our first settlers did NOT practice tolerance.

The first Southerners came looking for fortune.

But some of the New Englanders came to establish God's Kingdom on Earth. They practiced extreme intolerance to other Christians. And they were also Christmas-hating sourpusses.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

57. Holiday = Holy Day

How much more religious can it be?

My favorite reply to Xtians is the time-honored Bah Humbug.

[Cooley Hurd]

58. We're NOT supposed to get worked up about a "Merry Christmas" greeting

...yet they're getting worked up about a "Happy Holidays" greeting?

If the truth were a fish,

[peacefreak]

60. From the Front Lines

As a person who makes my living by doing retail, let me tell you what it's like. I am doing my level best to be accurate, pleasant, knowledgeable. I am faced with a SEA of faces all wanting something, RIGHT NOW. It is not my fault you waited until the week before Christmas to want a book that hasn't been in print since 1965 or you have 15 minutes left on the parking meter.
The least of my worries is whether I say Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays or whatever. I promise you will receive good service & most times a smile from me. I am the person who has not had a peaceful holiday in years. I work up until 6:00 Christmas Eve & will be back again the day after Christmas to take your returns.
Nobody will force me to say Merry Christmas. I try to return like with like. These so-called Christians are targeting people that usually don't make very much money to provide a service to make their lives better. So much for respect.
Rant over. I do wish you all the best of whatever this time of year means to you. Love, Peacefreak


:loveya:

[Sara Beverley]

61. It's a fake issue. and only because the RW funddies want it to be

Another diversion from the reality that affects us: Over 1300 flag-draped coffins.