Seasonal Displays Being Looted

[AliciaKeyedUp]

Hostility to Religion Or Profit Motive?

By Kari Lydersen
Special to The Washington Post
Wednesday, December 22, 2004; Page A03

WOODSTOCK, Ill. -- The ranch house here where Marc Moxon and his family live is a sparkling winter wonderland: trees garlanded in glittering lights, illuminated plastic penguins, polar bears and other characters dotting the lawn, even a reindeer-drawn sleigh on the roof.

But the glowing plastic Joseph and Mary and the three wise men sitting in front of the house look dejected. The manger between them is empty, as it has been since someone swiped the baby Jesus two weeks ago. Several days earlier, a sign was left at the house asking, "Would Jesus use this much electricity?"

"After they left the sign, we weren't that surprised to see him stolen," Moxon said. "We heard they had some at the police station. Maybe we'll go look down there."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17659-2004Dec21.html

[Maddy McCall]

1. Sorry for them, but....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

I swear, this has to be high-school or college kids. Love the note they left.

:silly:

[AliciaKeyedUp]

2. Glad you find anti-religious vandalism funny

How do you feel about swastikas painted in Jewish cemeteries?

[Flammable Materials]

5. Oh, come on! You can't make that kind of correlation.

Stealing a plastic baby Jesus and desecrating a Jewish grave are not even in the same league.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

8. Anti-religious vandalism is anti-religious vandalism

Attacking a creche is highly offensive.

[RetroLounge]

35. Lighten Up Francis...

"highly offensive" is all relative...

RL

[AliciaKeyedUp]

37. While I love the movie reference

Bigotry is not a light subject.

[jayfish]

244. Bigotry Against A Belief System?

How does that work and why should I care. I like the works of Tolkien, but if you blasted him or his works could I call you a bigot? It would be very offensive to me.

Jay

[Bono71]

146. I don't get the whole anti-christian vibe that goes on here...

am I not supposed to vote for democrats since I am a methodist/Catholic and Mrs. Bono71 is Catholic?

[shrike]

176. That's a problem here at DU

Christians get flamed pretty regularly here -- and the posters I see here are pretty left-wing; you'd think they'd want us on their side.

[Bono71]

201. Agree...I can't ever see myself voting for the likes of Bush,

but if the attitude of this board is indicative of the way the party is going, we will never win another election.

[tx_dem41]

181. So in what relation is it not offensive? n/t

[Kimber Scott]

221. Vandalism is Vandalism. nt

[mhr]

6. I Think The Question Was Pertinent And To The Point

Would Jesus support such schlock? I don't think so.

Therein lies the problem. We have generations of Christians that think cheap holiday adornments are an appropriate way to display their religious faith.

Seems a pretty passive way to demonstrate what you believe in.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

9. So vandalism and theft are passive?

Not in my book.

[mhr]

13. No Passive Displays Of Faith Are Passive - Don't Change The Subject

I will not play your game.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

16. Actually, I apologize, I misread the post

Sorry and Merry Christmas.

[Jazzgirl]

94. I notice you attack anyone that criticizes anything religious.

You need to understand not everyone is going to feel like you do about religion and treat it as hands off. Religion has been used to manipulate people forever. It needs to be called out. You need to chill.

JG

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

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[Cheswick2.0]

135. you need to understand that you can't direct the poster on what to post

about.

I have seen no attacks by that poster but plenty directed at her.

[Name removed]

197. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

204. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

211. Deleted message

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[lastliberalintexas]

216. Well, I can't explicitly write

what I think of this poster, or else my post would be deleted.

I am a borderline Christian/Deist myself, but I can't for the life of me see how this act was turned into a hate crime against Christianity. Petty theft and therefore illegal? Sure. Hate crime? Not in a million years- at least not without more than what is contained in that article.

[tx_dem41]

218. Have you seen her on other threads?

She is usually the level-headed one in the crowd. I agree today she might be a bit sensitive...but after reading some of the other posts...I can understand that feeling.

[lastliberalintexas]

224. Yes, I have

Or else I wouldn't have written what I did. :shrug:

What I've seen is knee jerk conservative (sometimes RW) reactions to the liberal/progressive ideals expressed by people on this board. If s/he is a Democrat, s/he is a *very* conservative one.

[tx_dem41]

231. I want to hear from people that challenge my world view.

If you implying that you don't want her around...and thus, your faith in you world view is not challenged...so be it. As to her being "very conservative", relative to this board, I might agree. Just realize, DU is not the real world.

[bettyellen]

229. i know what you mean- the hate crime angle is making this seem.....

to be more newsworthy than it ever was in years past. i don't believe the nonsense that there's a crime wave against jesus. it's just geting over reported this year because there is a backlash against the christian crusade mode going on with rw christians, so some christians are a bit more defensive this year. supporting the death penalty and the war and all, maybe they should be.
god forbid they report on a real story like that instead.

[bettyellen]

223. i think baby jesus gets stolen all the time... and to compare it to nazi

behaviour is way over the top. it seems a lot of people here agree it's not an anti christian thing, it's an anti-big showy expensive display thing. which has christian roots. or a really really common x mas prank. if it was really anti-christian i think there's be a sign of that but there was no desecration, was there? to compare the two is insane.
baby jesus isn't supposed to be out until the 25 th anyway. my aunt, a catholic nun, btw, used to be really offended that people were ignorant enough to put him out there before his birthday. i remember her saying she wanted to take a jesus and put it back on xmas day!
so maybe it was a hardline christian?
i know all vandalism is wrong, but to put this in the same category as anti semetic vandalism is dead wrong. this is not so hateful, IMHO. people take a risk putting things out on their lawn. cause it happens all the time with flamingos and gnomes too. it ain't hatered of famingos, and it ain't necessariy hatered of christ. a swastika on the same level?
nope, it's a clear cut symbol of bigotry and hatred. to argue they are on the same level is over simplistic and way offensive.

[tx_dem41]

227. I don't remember Biblical teachings on the placing of the Baby Jesus

in a Nativity pre-Christmas. :eyes:

Your Catholic aunt will have to talk to my Methodist uncle (minister) about this church canon.

I see you are backing off the implications you were making about Alicia.

[Name removed]

233. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tx_dem41]

238. I refuse to accept that respect for someone else's faith system...

is a "conservative viewpoint". In fact, being an atheist, I can tell you that disrespect for one's faith system is a "conservative viewpoint".

[bettyellen]

249. a lot of us do not see this as an attack on faith. most of us in fact!!

are you just willfully ignoring what's on this board or what? seems that way to me!!
keep your head in the sand if you want, but FAITH SYSTEM =PLASTIC JESUS DISPLAY???
WTF? that's news to me! according to jesus, true christians would forgive these guys, and not try to hype this crap to satisfy their egos and make inflammatory claims of persecution!
i have no disrespect for anyones faith, in fact i am a christian as well as a buddhist, but some of my best friends are atheists! LOL! and they do like to lecture people about their faith alright! i've always found that to be interesting.....

[bettyellen]

234. well it was a big thing with catholics.. i guess they are a bit

more literal than methodists. and maybe they have changed, but seriously a baby jesus in the creche before xmas is scandalous where i came from!

[Flammable Materials]

19. One dose of perspective. Take once a day with meals.

I have a problem with someone who thinks that stealing a plastic figurine from a holiday display is no less heinous than someone spraypainting a swastika on a Jewish grave. Was it wrong? Of course it was.

Do we know the whole story? No, we don't. All we know is what our limited media tells us. What we do know is that the missing plastic figurine was apparently turned in to police. This could have been the latest salvo in an ongoing neighbor's feud, we don't know.

Am I angry with the take over of this country by religious extremists? You're damn right I am. Would I do something like this? Of course not, and neither would 99.9% of the people here who have their own particular beef with religion. I think the people here deserve a little more credit than you're apparently willing to give them.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

23. I have a problem with people who downplay one type of bigotry

While agreeing another is bad.

I think both are horrendous.

As for the neighbor's feud comment, any crime can be a result of a neighborhod feud. But when many such crimes happen, you can't rationalize them all away.

[BlueEyedSon]

34. It's not bigotry, it's an act against stupidity.

I bet the thieves are lefty Xtians who found the display offensive.

Would it be bigotry to pull down a KKK burning cross?

[AliciaKeyedUp]

38. What an amazingly insulting analogy

So now a creche is the equivalent of a KKK cross?

I'm at a loss for words that the mods would not delete.

[BlueEyedSon]

73. To a clansman it is a valid cultural symbol, who are you to judge?

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

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[BlueEyedSon]

87. Or property damage as property damage?

[Cheswick2.0]

131. So I can come to your house and steal whatever I think is stupid?

Tell me what you've got and I will tell you if it's stupid and should be stolen.

[arwalden]

143. Cheswick, You Missed The Point

Nobody is saying that theft is acceptable or appropriate. Only that this theft is NOT a "hate crime".

[BlueEyedSon]

150. Yes, everyone should do that to everyone else here in the US

Why do we put up with all the Hummers, for example?

[toopers]

155. Interesting analogy to KKK crosses.

When was the last time a Klansman left a burning cross in his own yard. Never! The burning cross is erected in the targets yard as a sign of terror and meant to intimidate.

Since religion is a personal thing, then defacing a creche is just as bad as defacing a grave, at least in the eyes of the believer.

[Mike Daniels]

217. The act of stupidity was the theft

God, I can see why the Repubs are able to hijack the morality road when you have people excusing theft and vandalism on this board.

By the way, if a Lefty Christian can't even observe the commandment of "thou shalt not steal" then they don't have much calling to judge someone else's expression of faith.

[tx_dem41]

220. Excellent...I agree 100 percent. n/t

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

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[AliciaKeyedUp]

60. I believe both are very wrong

Not sure if they are equally wrong. And I'm no martyr to be nailed to a cross. I lack the courage. Besides, Christ did it for me.

[Flammable Materials]

67. I was speaking figuratively, Alicia.

What I was saying is that there are a lot of things happening in this country that are far more heartbreaking than a stolen plastic statue.

Forgive them, and move on. There's homeless people and hungry children and battered women who could use some of that righteous indignation of yours.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

72. There is much wrong in the world

And I focus on a lot of it, which is why I am here. But it's the Christmas season and I am bothered by attacks on religion here and in the outside world.

[sendero]

95. People are attacking religion...

... because religion is attacking people. It is as simple as that.

It seems that the "attack" was oriented more towards making a point against excess and waste. Believe me, I see people around here who burn 3,000 watts of Christmas lighting and I think it is downright shameful. I'd never vandalize anything, but I understand the frustration of it all.

[LiberalFighter]

199. And I would think that it defeats the purpose of religion to attack people

I don't think people are attacking religion as much as they are trying to keep religious nuts from taking over the country and dictate the lives of everyone and what everyone will be required to believe.

[Vanje]

200. Is it possible that the creche raids

are not so much against 'religion' as against plastic?

Or against the plasticization of religion?


(though I need to admit right here that I kind of like those glowing plastic sheepies that are often included in these "Holy" scenes.

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

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[Cronus Protagonist]

129. Isn't there something in the bible about graven images?

Can't remember it well, but in our church, that was one of the best kept rules.

[Cheswick2.0]

134. And you are being patronizing

It is not up to you to judge what people should care about. Nor is it up to you to assign more outrage to a person than they have posted just for the purposes of calling them a martyr.

[mhr]

25. Property Rights And Hate Crimes Are Two Different Things

Maybe the political statement about Christ's teachings was the only message.

You seem to want to jump to the conclusion that this was motivated by hate and hate alone.

I don't think that any of us has enough information to make that judgment.

[Cheswick2.0]

127. would Jesus support taking other people's property?

I doubt it.

[BlueEyedSon]

170. Would Jesus support such a grandiose, tasteless, wasteful display

while children are starving & dying of preventable illnesses?

[Maddy McCall]

178. Thou shall have no other gods before me.

I am sure that Jesus would be completely offended by dimestore plastic baby Jesuses.

[RetroLounge]

33. Knee Jerk much?

Wow! swastikas painted in Jewish cemeteries?

Would Jesus use a Nazi Reference?

RL

[AliciaKeyedUp]

39. Both are anti-religious vandalism

But bashing Christians around here is much more tolerated.

[maxrandb]

115. You're confused

No one here is "bashing" Christians! All I see are people bashing false Christians.

I guess when Jesus told the Pharisees off, you probably would have been right there to accuse Him of bashing religion?

I think it was Gandhi who said something like; "I've heard of this Jesus Christ. I like him alot. It's his followers that scare me."

When the religious right and the fundies begin "acting" Chris-like, I will stop bashing them.

[Cheswick2.0]

137. so you know that the victims of this crime were "fundies??

BTW "fundies" is a term that gets thrown around in a very uneducated way here. You might want to check your own usage and make sure you actually know what you are talking about when you lable people.

[maxrandb]

144. Sorry, but as long as Falwell, Robertson, et all

Call themselves fundamental Xtian's, I'll stick with the negative connotation of "fundie". If you want to reclaim fundamentalism, then join me in condemning the "so-called" Xtian's twisted, distorted, vengeful, hateful, "supply side Jesus" version of Christ they have created.

I'm working to reclaim the word "liberal" so that it is not a "4 letter word".

As for the whole premise of this entire thread, it is a poorly hidden attempt to push the mantra that "Christianity is under attack". You don't really believe that gibberish, do you?

Like I said before. "When the 'fundies' begin acting like Christ, I will stop bashing them".

[Igel]

163. And you're the judge of who's a "true Christian"?

Ah, so "judge not, that ye be not judged" obviously isn't part of your credo.

Does that mean that I get to start deciding who are "true Muslims" and "true Hindus" and "true Buddhists", or has somebody taken those jobs?

But, honesty, wouldn't it be *Christ's* job to decide who a "true Christian" is, and isn't running around accusing people of heresy part of the problem?

[maxrandb]

168. Wow, Exactly!

I guess we agree! Maybe you didn't get the meaning of my posts. I can pretty much read Jesus' own words in the New Testament and figure out what it is "I" need to do to live my life as a Christian. I don't always make it, but I have to try. There was only one person that was without sin, and they crucified Him.

I do know, however that putting up nativity scenes, lighting a menorah, boycotting Macy's, and voting for *, is not how you get closer to Christ. All of that is just window dressing isn't it? I mean, I'm sure Hitler had a copy of the bible, but I don't think anyone, except for the extreme right wing, would mistake him for a Christian.

[bettyellen]

206. best. Gandhi quote. Ever.

[hyphenate]

145. Real Christians

don't sweat the small stuff, only those pompous, right-winged hypocrites do. It seems to me that too much emphasis is placed on that "small stuff" as if every single iota of a person's being was influenced by an unseen god or unseen saviour.

In truth, the real Christians here at DU and around the world keep their words short and their actions long. Those who pretend to be "holier than thou" should learn from those truly religious people instead of proselytizing to every person they feel isn't true to "the word of god." There is more good than harm in keeping your tongue quiet, your heart and mind open, and your feet on the ground instead of in your mouth.

[VegasWolf]

213. Well said hyphenate! One needs to be secure in one's beliefs. If

someone wants to bash athiests, fine. If one is not secure
in their beliefs, I think they have a little truth seeking
to do.

Merry Christmas from the invisible plastic jesus.

[davidinalameda]

196. there is no bashing of Christians

just bashing of these fundies who claim to be Christian

big difference

[Mike Niendorff]

53. Give it a rest.

If you want to play the victim, you're going to have to try a little harder than this to find your "anti-religious" sentiment. And frankly, comparing someone taking a Christmas decoration to someone painting a swastika on a synagogue is obscene.


MDN

[AliciaKeyedUp]

61. Both acts of vandalism are obscene

I don't understand how you can't see that.

[Mike Niendorff]

81. These are not equivalent acts, not on ANY level

And for you to imply otherwise is either delusional or *incredibly* dishonest. I have time for neither.

End of discussion.


MDN

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

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[Cheswick2.0]

138. actually seven million Christians were starved to death in the Ukrain

by Atheists who wanted them to be forced into colectivism.

PS... I also find it funny that anyone who accuse someone else of antisemitism for simply suggesting other people have suffered religious bigotry or persecution. (however minor that persecution might seem to others)

[Kathy in Cambridge]

148. That was ETHNIC not RELIGIOUS genocide

I wrote my thesis on Stalin's purges as genocide. So don't even go there. :eyes:

And there were Ukrainian Jews included in that mix as well. Those ethnic tensions and hatreds went back centuries. It had NOTHING to do with ATHEISTS starving CHRISTIANS. :crazy:

[arwalden]

161. "Yeah DAMMIT!! You Better Be An Atheist OR ELSE!!"

"You Christians better stop believing in deities and start NOT believing or we'll starve you to death!"

Kathy, I believe that silly examples like the one Cheswick gave to you are attempts to try an balance (or shield Christianity) from the horrors that have been done IN THE NAME of Christianity throughout the centuries.

Christianity has a lot to answer for, and many modern Christians try to avoid addressing that fact. Others try to make excuses by offering up their false analogies of the autrocities committed by people who were known to be (or suspected of being) atheists.

But as you point out... the fact that the leader/leaders/government is atheist does not mean that the crimes were/are committed IN THE NAME of atheism in the same manner that autrocities were/are committed IN THE NAME of Christ for the reason of NOT being Christian.

There's a difference.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

166. Absolutely. I just loved that the quoted example

is what I wrote 100+ pages of a thesis on. I still have nightmares about it! :scared:

Most rational, logical, reality-based Christians can admit that horrors were committed in the name of Christ. I was arguing with someone on another thread that the Vatican was complicit in the Holocaust. Whether it was laundering money for Nazi war criminals (mostly Bavarian and Ausrian CATHOLICS), supporting the Croatian Ustache (pro-Nazi Nationalist Croatians, also Catholic), or supporting anti-semitic edicts, the Vatican has a lot to answer for. Not that there wasn't individual acts of bravery and kindness bu priests and nuns, but the Pope and Vatican during WWII have some serious reparations to pay.

[VegasWolf]

215. How about the millions of South Americans murdered to further

Spain's imperialistic goals, all under the guise of converting
the heathens to catholicism?


The plastic jesus says merry christmas!

[bettyellen]

245. the jesus i know and love would have some pretty harsh words for you!

to equate this with nazi anti semitic grave desecration?? WTF?? obviously it's offended many here but you are content to ignore it.
also your assumption that those who don't agree aren't practicing christians is so very judgemental, i think you need to check in with jesus yourself dear!

[w4rma]

75. Where do you get the "anti-religious" adjective from? Definitely vandalism

but I don't see it as anti-religious or even anti-Christian. Personally I'm not real big on all the resources spent on these huge decorations, myself. It's not humble and I think that Jesus would probably want those resources spent towards charitable ventures instead.

That said I wish these vandals had chosen another way to make their point.

[Theres-a]

85. amen!

[Cheswick2.0]

141. think about it again

if it weren't an anti religious statement why didn't they take the santa or one of the pengquins?

[The Stranger]

107. You do yourself a severe disservice with comparisons like these.

And you seem to have it all wrong: the Nazi SS belt buckles were emblazoned with the words "Gott Mit Uns."

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raster]

136. hold on one minute, there's a far difference from jesus and electricity

...and swastikas in jewish graveyards. talk about hyperbole. don't even go there.

[Maddy McCall]

177. You need to chill out.

[tx_dem41]

180. I'm stunned you found that funny. n/t

[Maddy McCall]

246. I'm stunned that you don't

[Mike Daniels]

209. Yes, theft of private property is my number one source of humour

Comments like this are just so "liberal" and "progressive" aren't they?

[Maddy McCall]

248. Telling other people what to think is even more "liberal" and "progressive

:eyes:

[6000eliot]

239. It really scares me

that the MSM is pushing this "anti-Christmas" shit so much. They'll keep pushing it until we have a taliban here, I fear. Once again, right-wing loonies are driving the news cycle. As far as I can tell, people are celebrating Christmas the same as they always have, and I'm sure nativity scenes have been vandalized in the past as well. Every time I hear another one of these stories, I can swear I hear the sound of jackboots in the distance.

[wishlist]

3. Perhaps thief thought 'Jesus' did not belong in this flashy display?

I am getting tired of all the hyped up media stories concentrated on thefts/opposition to religious Christmas displays. Similar pranks involving showy displays have occurred for decades. But seems like the righties are trying especially hard to make a wedge issue out of it this year.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

4. So, did you notice that complaints have doubled this year?

Don't you consider that an essential fact?

[mhr]

7. Buy Who's Counting - The Complainers?

C'mon give me a break!

[Flammable Materials]

10. Have you noticed that complaints to the FCC are up as well?

And 95% of those complaints come from visitors to one right-wing website.

Seriously, the right-wing media has made Evangelicals so paranoid and angry about so-called "Christmas persecution" that I'm not surprised that complaints are up this year. Self-righteous people love to complain. And of course, those complaints go right back into the fire fanned by the right-wing media. It's an evil cycle.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

12. I think you underestimated

What I read was they had like 98% or more.

In this atmosphere complaints going up does not surprise me. But don't assume they are all an increase in reporting. Given some of the attitudes about religion here, I expect some of the increase is striking back at religion and people of faith.

[genieroze]

109. Maybe if they weren't so busy trying to shove their religion down

people throats. We want the ten commandments posted on the courthouse door, we want children to have to say prayer in a public school, we want store people to say Merry Christmas for Dec 25th even though it's a pagan holiday and Christ was born sometime in March, We don't want Christmas associated with Santa Clause even though it is more representative of Dec 25th. This is OUR Christian nation and we want all people to pray as we do or get out, even though most of our forefathers were Deists. I'm a Christian and I don't want these things. For me God is too special to be political, he's above politics. He's in our hearts and souls and that's where he should reside, not in plastic figurines that most likely some college kid did took as a prank. God doesn't need displays, he needs good works. As far as the perpetrator is concerned, give them a ticket. Another thing that ticks me off is * who brags about God putting him in the WH. As far as I'm concerned FRAUD not God put him in the WH and for him to say that he's calling God a liar and a cheat and that's blasphemy. By saying God is with him in the WH and doing what he does is heresy. From dictionary
In Titus 3:10 a "heretical
person" is one who follows his own self-willed "questions," and who is to be avoided. Heresies thus came to signify self-chosen doctrines not emanating from God (2 Pet. 2:1).

[hyphenate]

162. That's complete

BS. Most of the religious people around here tend to worship quietly and without pomp and circumstance.

Most of us who hold different beliefs don't truly meddle in the religious affairs of others. It's only the right-winged, over the top hypocrites who tend to exaggerate and condemn others, all the while they're bowing down and prostrating before a graven image.

Anyone who compares what objectively is a very dumb and even humorous anecdote to a hate crime of painting swastikas on Jewish graves should re-evaluate their own threshold of tolerance and see how honest they are within themselves toward the actions of others. Only those at the far right end of the radical fringe would go so far as to compare these two, extremely unequal events as being even remotely similar.

[mhr]

29. Yes, It Is One Side Masturbating With Their Own Fears

eom

[Jazzgirl]

96. Flammable, I didn't even know until last week that there was

"Christmas persecution" going on. I didn't even notice it though I did notice that I'm not seeing quite as many "Christmas" decorations this year. I also don't see a whole lot of holiday cheer either. RW media makes me want to vomit! :puke:

[genieroze]

112. Come to my town, the electric company must be doing some celebrating. eom

[RetroLounge]

40. Have the complaints actually doubled?

Do you have statistics to back up your victimhood?

or maybe the REPORTING of them has doubled?

RL

[AliciaKeyedUp]

51. We don't know

It's the same with all statistics. But when crime stats go up 10% or 20%, people tend to get upset. Here, they have gone up 100%.

[ProfessorGAC]

154. What's The Same With ALL Statistics?

Honest question. What is the SAME with ALL statistics? And remember you're answering the question of someone with a masters degree in statistical mechanics.

Please elucidate.
The Professor

[bettyellen]

240. only fact is that it's of media interest all of a sudden...

i don't know if people would be reporting this if they hadn't already seen it on tv.
seems to be a me-too thing happening here, really. media atttention inspires more complaints and possibly more creche thefts. does any remember seeing any news reports about stealing jesus before?? it's not like this hasn't been going on forever. it's news because it's news. it's complaint worthy because some people saw it on tv. wow, maybe they can get the local TV to put their gorgeous display on the news at 11!

[GCP]

26. They are indeed tub-thumping it up to becoming this year's wedge issue

This is all Ho'really's been ranting about on his radio show for 2 weeks now.
I want to take a creche and shove it up his commodious ass, I'm so sick of hearing about it.

This is how they've managed to divide this nation. They take a ludicrous issue like this and blast talk radio and Faux News 24/7. They manufacture these phoney issues - gay marriage - Howard Stern - Janet Jackson - get their base all riled up and the rest of us are worried about stupid little issues like Iraq, Social Security, poverty, starvation in the Third World, Roe v Wade.

Rant over - I don't see an end to it.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

30. How is bigotry ludicrous

These attacks are not ludicrous. Certainly, I don't find them so.

And though I support gay marriage, I don't see the issue as ludicrous. (Or perhaps because I support it I don't see the issue as ludicrous. Take your pick.)

[GCP]

102. As a nation we're being distracted from the really serious issues

You are free to carry on your religion as you wish, but WWJD is a pretty good method of figuring out what's important and what's not.
I would think he'd be more interested in feeding the starving, housing the homeless, offering everybody love and respect than whether we're putting up displays about his own nativity - but that's my opinion.

[Theres-a]

105. thanks!

it breaks my heart that the media is stirring this pot.thay have no shame.pitting people against each other.:grouphug:

[tx_dem41]

183. I would think religious bigotry, after examples that are still fresh...

from last century, would be a VERY important issue. How soon we forget.

[Danmel]

11. Disagree but don't vandalize

They could have left the note without stealing the "baby Jesus". We all need to breathe a little here- blinking baby Jesus-es aren't my cup of tea, but I don't expect anyone to complain about my (admittedly nominal) holiday decorations either. To each his own.

I know people who don't put the baby figure into the manger until Christmas eve.

[Occulus]

156. Shouldn't it actually be empty

until Christmas day in the first place? Seein' as how the baby wouldn't be there before His birth, and all...

Just some simple logic. Not that it usually enters into such discussions, but there it is.

[MADem]

192. IN EVERY Catholic nation where I have lived

...this is how it is done. In fact, Christmas trees are the smallest decoration in the house, and some just don't even BOTHER with them--the Nativity Scenes, though, are often VERY elaborate, and LARGE, with lights, lots of little figures, fantastical scenes, and what not. There is a ceremony of sorts, where the youngest child puts the baby Jesus in the hay. It's kind of a big deal. Of course, you don't get any GIFTS on Xmas....you get those on Three King's Day, January 6th. Father Christmas might bring one little thing on the 25th, but in many cases he does not show up at all. The 25th is all about the event, going to Mass, eating meat (after eating fish up the yingyang the night before) and having a wonderful PARTY. But GIFTS are not central to the 25th.

The 6th of January, on the other hand, is when the big loot arrives!

It's actually a sensible way of doing things, you can make out like a bandit if you are buying toys for kids AFTER the holiday rush--you can usually get huge discounts.

[Cooley Hurd]

14. Hostility?

The note left indicates they were making a statement, but not a hostile one.

Theft is only hostility when a clear message of derision is left. Their note indicates they were OFFENDED by this family's display of commercialism and lack of concern for the environment.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

17. Yes, hostility

They stole a religion statue and vandalized a Christmas display to score a poiltical point. That's pretty hostile.

[Cooley Hurd]

18. Again, their note said, "Would Jesus Use So Much Electricity?"

As a progressive Christian, I would think you would approve of their message. Unless the environment means little to you...

[AliciaKeyedUp]

20. I have no idea about the answer to their note

When I die, if I'm lucky enough to go to heaven, I will ask.

In the meantime, it is a blatant POLITICAL ploy that uses anti-religious actions and theft to make a point.

[Cooley Hurd]

22. The majority here disagree with you about the message's "blatancy..."

As do I.

:hi:

[AliciaKeyedUp]

24. The majority here do not seem to be actively practicing Christians

Much as certain slurs bother certain ethnic groups, attacks on my religion bother me.

[Flammable Materials]

27. Judge not.

If I remember correctly from my years in the church, only God knows who are his own.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Flammable Materials]

80. There are a lot of us who have been damaged by religion.

Keep that in mind.

[Cooley Hurd]

28. But no one on this thread is dissing Christianity...

...but they are in agreement about excessive religious displays (which use copious amounts of precious electricity).

Myself included.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

32. Excessive religious displays are in the eye of the beholder

Many people want to celebrate the holiday. That is their right.

[Cooley Hurd]

36. That's true, but at the expense of the environment?

Can't they have an unlit display?:shrug:

[AliciaKeyedUp]

41. Do you make every daily choice the same?

Do you walk to work? Use renewable beeswax candles in your home? Heck, you are using electricity to make your posts.

To ask others to live to another standard is hypocrisy.

[Cooley Hurd]

44. My computer is a tool of my livelihood...

...as is my automobile. Can their "display" be classified the same? No...

[AliciaKeyedUp]

46. Our faith is more important than any job

So, no it's not the same. It's vastly more essential.

[Cooley Hurd]

48. Doesn't your Bible say something about "graven images..."

...and "idol worship?" Then why revere a "display" so much?:shrug:

[AliciaKeyedUp]

54. Sorry, you take me for a fundamentalist

I am not.

So I am allowed statues of my God.

[Cooley Hurd]

55. Ah, so your Bible says something different than theirs?

:shrug:

[AliciaKeyedUp]

56. Actually, it does

There are many versions of the Bible. Many editions and they are periodically revised to make sure they use current terms.

[Cooley Hurd]

58. What version of the Bible promotes "idol worship?"

I'm not trying to be snotty, I'm just curious...

[AliciaKeyedUp]

64. The Bible, as you may have noticed

Is open to some interpretation. As a Catholic, we don't interpret it that way. More traditional Protestant faiths do.

[Cooley Hurd]

66. I guess that covers the Pope's (holy) butt...

...with the cajillions in the Vatican treasury.:eyes:

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cooley Hurd]

86. As far as the "Webster's" comment...

*yawn*

You might want to read up on the Vatican Bank. It's full of $$$, not "art."

[Maddy McCall]

186. And, where was Pope Pius II when...

countless Jews were being slaughtered--and he had known about it since VERY early in the war?

Since she's equating me laughing at the theft of a freakin' plastic baby Jesus to me painting swastikas on Jewish headstones, I'd like for her to talk her out of the rhetorical corner into which she has painted herself.

So, why didn't the Pope do anything to save the Jews during the war? Is his offense worse than me laughing at a Jesus trinket?

:eyes:

[bettyellen]

242. yes maddy! apparently is seems it's all the same bigotry....

in keyed's book. the act itself doen't matter, just her personal interpetation and the sense of persecution she's enjoying.
i don't get it at all, either. i thought the martyr thing was so over, now that we are in crusader mode!

[ET Awful]

110. Actually, your god is pretty explicit in his orders NOT to have

idols and statues of him.

[jayfish]

247. So You Get To Pick And Choose...

what parts of the Bible you adhere to? Is that like Christianity a-la carte?

Jay

[Dora]

120. As a matter of fact, some people here do walk the walk

Comparing the use of electricity to make these posts is like comparing a glass of water to reckless yard watering in a drought.

[Flammable Materials]

45. I will have to side with AKU on this one ... it's free speech.

If they're paying the electric bill, and it's on their property, they can do what they wish so long as it doesn't disturb the peace.

[Cooley Hurd]

52. True, but I was debating the "hostility" of the message...

...about electricity usage, not about electricity usage in general.

But I dig what you're saying...:hi:

[tx_dem41]

185. When were "we" authorized to judge what is "excessive"? n/t

[Cooley Hurd]

225. Huh?

:crazy:

[tx_dem41]

230. In your post #28

You stated that we on the thread were in agreement on excessive religious displays....I was just wondering why you would choose to speak for everyone on the thread?

And, how do you define "excessive"?

[Cooley Hurd]

235. We were...

...until you showed up.:eyes:

And "excessive" is a cheap religious display which eveidently used enough energy to offend someone enough to leave a note about it...

Are you AKU's sock puppet?;)

P.S. Thank you for clarifying your previous post because it made no sense whatsoever...:thumbsup:

[tx_dem41]

237. Hey....guess what...

that made me laugh! :D


BTW...I think Bono71 would beg to differ.

[BiggJawn]

42. Nobody held a gun to your head to click on this post.

I was going to post "Wait for the Fundies to start crying 'Persecution of Christians'..." But you seem to have beaten me to the punch.

I have no use for the "religion" espoused by Foul-Well, Robertson, Dobson, and the rest of the "We got you elected, Dub, now move over. We're driving..." Dominionist crowd.


Perhaps 2,000 years from now, people will tell the story about how Spongebob was stolen from HIS manger on top of the Burger King?

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Karenina]

90. So now

Plastic display figure = Christ? :crazy: :shrug: :crazy:

Poor Spongebob! But he'll be ok.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/pmupdate/s_285674.html

[RetroLounge]

43. "attacks on my religion bother me"

attacks by your religion bother me.

Get used to it.

RL

[AliciaKeyedUp]

49. My religion isn't attacking anyone

Sure, some people use religion like they use politics, sex, money and everything else to their own ends. Why is that surprising?

[Bridget Burke]

68. Perhaps the "vandals" objected to the premature presence of the....

figure of the Christ Child. In the more conservative Catholic homes, the Baby Jesus figure is often added to the manger on Christmas morning. And, as mentioned in this article, visiting Nativity scenes set up by other Parishes is an old-fashioned Catholic practice.

www.wf-f.org/Creche.html

In my childhood, we used a ceramic set glazed & fired by my grandmother in a restrained, classic style. What style do you have set up at home? And--is your Parish offering a live Nativity this year or using a "set"?

[AliciaKeyedUp]

76. If that was their objection

Then they wouldn't have made a political statement about energy.

I have a lovely crystal set from Ireland actually. My parish has a nice set up at the church and, yes, the baby Jesus is already there. Not sure about live nativity or not.

[Jazzgirl]

98. Then stay away from topics that bother you.

n/t

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[progmom]

121. You take offense at what you perceive to be attacks on Christianity here?

I take offense at the statement you made above. How do you know about what "the majority here" are doing? Don't you realize that you're only feeding into the stereotype I'm desperately fighting against? You're coming off as a finger-pointing, holier than thou "X-tian".
I'm disappointed.

[da_chimperor]

140. It's not an attack on your religion, chill out

Christianity in all it's forms is the largest religion in the world. Christians are rarely persecuted (except maybe in Saudi Arabia and other countries like that, but I doubt you're from there) It was a plastic display. They didn't burn down a church so calm the fuck down.

END

[Tempest]

153. Christianity is NOT the largest religion in the world

Islam is, by a very big margin.

[da_chimperor]

158. Nope, I'm right. Check this link

http://www.religioustolerance.org/islam.htm

They look kinda sketchy, but it's a good and reliable website. Ask around and you'll hear the same.

[Tempest]

172. Your link is wrong

Your link is wrong, it claims Christianity is holding steady when it's not.

Christians have been losing members while Islam is adding members.

The figures used on the site are from 2001.

[da_chimperor]

184. Can you provide a source of your own backing up your claim?

My numbers may be 4 years old, but it's still a source. 4 years old in a statistics point of view is still current. I still think it's as accurate as you'll find. Look at these pages on the website as well, . http://www.religioustolerance.org/growth_isl_chr.htm http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_numb.htm

[VegasWolf]

219. Maybe you should be less insecure in your beliefs. n/t

[left is right]

78. I am devoutly Christian

I read the Bible and pray frequently and I know exactly where I am going in the afterlife. I am suspicious about your own faith because of this one line: "if I'm lucky enough to go to heaven". But I will leave that to you and God.
But I find it amazing that people consider the teenage/college prank of stealing Baby Jesus as persecution. This should be ranked right up there with having your house TP'd or having a flaming bag of doggy-do left on your front porch. Not religious persecution!
The apostle Paul for the sake of his faith was twice beaten (up to 39 times each) with the horrific cat o'nine tails. He had to be lowered down the city walls in a basket to escape from people who took issue with his preaching of the gospel. He was imprisoned and in fact wrote many of the epistles from a prison cell while handcuffed to guards. Despite all of this he wrote that he would give up salvation for himself if it meant that he could bring just one person to a saving knowledge of Christ by doing so. He never whined about the persecution that he faced. He would be disgusted that this is even considered persecution.
Both Jesus and Paul commanded (not suggested) that despite persecution we present the gospel in a winsome manner--that means that we do it in such a way that others are drawn to the message of truth and I am terribly afraid that all this whining about religious persecution is repelling everyone.

[Rose Siding]

101. I share your concern

as well as your view of these pranks. Thanks for taking the time to share the facts behind your views. -very generous of Spirit (and that's my own "shiboleth", my sister)

[Occulus]

157. "lucky enough" to go to Heaven?

Um, 'Lish, hate to clue you in, but that's not exactly based on luck.

[Dora]

119. You're making assumptions

Kids have been vandalizing religious statues for ages: it's a tradition.

People do stupid things for no reason whatsoever. A stolen baby Jesus does not a political act make.

The theft and the sign are two events that are not necessarily related.

Now, if a vandal had taken the baby Jesus and done something symbolic with it, perhaps your assumption would be supported.

But baby Jesus is gone, and this seems just Another Boring Example of stupid people having a stupid good time.

[Jivenwail]

15. Vandalism should not be tolerated in any form

No matter what the reasons. And on personal property, that's going too damn far. And if you think I'm angry, you'd be right because we are victims of same. Our mailbox was destroyed earlier this year. And now our holiday decorations have been vandalized. We decorate every year because we enjoy it. No religious figures are used, but we do light up and use yard decorations. Someone has seen fit to destroy them - broke our animated deer and piled them up on top of one another - pulled out all our ground lights. And I don't apologize for stating quite clearly that it is vandalism and it's sad to think that some people may feel it has a right time and a right place. I totally disagree. Once you've been a victim of vandalism in any form, you feel violated. Period. And yes, we've notified authorities and requested increased police patrols in our neighborhood.

[Flammable Materials]

21. I have no problem with condemning it as vandalism.

What bothered me was that AliciaKeyedUp was putting it on an equal footing with a neo-Nazi hate crime.

They're both wrong, but one is infintely more reprehensible than the other.

[Karenina]

50. Teenagers (probably?)

absconding a bit of plastic from a Nativity scene is a well-worn tradition and hardly rises to the level of vandalism. Maybe the plastic baby will give the fuzz a hot lead on the perpetrators.

[Theres-a]

71. jumping to conclusions

perhaps it wasn't even the same people who left the note and took the statue.......LOTS of kids think it's hilarious to steal lawn ornaments.not just at christmas,either.one point i would like to make is sppeed is very important when doing these sorts of things,and the baby is smallest,therefore a speedy getaway.:shrug:

[Karenina]

93. Garden gnomes

have been known to become "world" travellers. Maybe they stole the baby to send him to Yeshiva! ;-)

[Cooley Hurd]

62. No doubt, this is a property crime, NOT a hate crime...

:thumbsup:

[AliciaKeyedUp]

65. So destroying tombstones in a Jewish cemetery is a property crime?

Just trying to determine your definition.

[Cooley Hurd]

69. Destroying tombstones in ANY cemetery is a property crime...

...UNLESS there is a clear message that said vandalism was motivated by hate (such as a note indicating such, or swastikas, etc...).

"Would Jesus use so much electricity" does not indicate hate for Christians or Christianity, as much as disdain for excessive consumerism. That seems crystal-clear to me.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

79. So, we need criminals to leave a note to declare a hate crime?

I don't think so.

[Cooley Hurd]

84. Yes. "Motive" is extremely important in prosecution...

...if motive cannot be established, then it would be merely a property crime.

[Flammable Materials]

70. What did the message say, Alicia?

Did the message denigrate Christ?

Or did it simply ask the question that a lot of Christians were asking just a few years ago: WWJD?

[Occulus]

160. the two don't compare

HOW many times are you going to make that same invalid comparison? It. Doesn't. Work.

Stoppit. Now you're just trying to fan flames.

By the way: Jesus Himself "vandalized" a temple by scattering coins, overturning tables, and generally making a nuisance of himself to the moneychangers there. He threw them out.

Would he have removed a statue of Himself from a decadant and wastefully garish display of wealth, when that wealth could be used to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the injured, and cure the sick?

I'm thinking yes, He would.

[mhr]

59. Get Used To More Of This As Our Society Continues To Break Down

I am sorry you had suffer the fate of vandalism; I have been violated as well.

All I know is that the fires of hate being stoked by the right-wing Christians cannot go on without consequences.

I believe that we are on the verge of a societal meltdown.

[MAlibdem]

159. that's a cheery thought

[Flammable Materials]

63. I guess what needs to be said here, Jesus said best.

"Forgive them."

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

77. Sounds Parlockian to me

When I hear these stories - and yes, there are more reports this year, if not incidents themselves - I cannot exclude believers from the list of suspects. Not necessarily the owners, but others who see an opportunity to raise the cry of persecution by robbing an unguarded display.

[booksenkatz]

89. Thanks, She!

Did a quick page search for "Parlock" and your post popped up... thanks for thinking like I do and saving me the trouble, LMAO!:7

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

100. Suspicious minds think alike!

:hi:

[Skarbrowe]

82. My next door neighbor had his baby Jesus stolen. My roommate told him

when he told her he was going to get another one, to put up a "Coming Soon" sign in front of the manger and wait to put baby Jesus up on Xmas Eve. heh

In this neighborhood they are probably stealing things to either send back to South America or sell at one of the many, many flea markets. Or, it could just be pranks.

[arwalden]

88. Or Maybe... It's Just Hostility To Mr. Moxon. Hmmm....

[Swamp Rat]

91. This is NOT news. WP is participating in the propaganda campaign.

[Theres-a]

103. amen!

god forbid people get worked up about what's really happening...

[KingChicken]

92. This really is funny, but I know it hurts when your property is stolen...

This really isn’t bigotry, it's not meant to convey a message of hatred, just a message. Don't be so offended about everything, it's not always meant to be anti-anything, it's just a message.

I still wouldn’t do it because even stealing something small and of little value (Plastic Jesus), feels violating.

[tx_dem41]

188. Its odd that you only see the monetary value in this story...and

don't recognize and respect the spiritual values some hold instead.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

97. Lighten up. I went to Catholic school, this happened every year

and it was usually a Catholic school kid who committed the act. Either that or a fraternity prank.

To even COMPARE this with a HATE CRIME like a desecration of a Jewish cemetary or a swatsticka on a synagogue is ludicrous.

[Cronus Protagonist]

128. At least they didn't put a cigarette in baby Jesus's mouth

That one was funny in a sick kind of way. :)




http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
Buttons for brainy people - educate your local freepers today!

[Bridget Burke]

104. I wonder about the title.

It refers to "Seasonal Displays" & there's one reference to a theft. And who wrote "Hostility to Religion Or Profit Motive?" Who stands to profit from this--except the "Christianity Under Attack!" crowd?

Withough registering to read the whole thing, this appears to be a bit of stupid vandalism.

[Zuni]

108. This is just a stupid prank

I do not think this is a major crime

[HeeBGBz]

113. Let's hope Baby Jesus returns soon

2nd coming attractions

[Dora]

114. Kids have been vandalizing displays for years

I am appalled that so many are willingly and foolishly convinced that these events are the result of liberal hostility towards religious expression.

I, for one, do think a glowing, plastic Jesus in the Manger scene just smacks too much of idolatry. And I think gigantic light displays, as pretty as they are to look at, are embarassing examples of our human pride and ego at work. And these things will goeth before a fall, they say.

For cripes sake, people. Whether it's a stolen plastic baby Jesus, or a knocked over & defaced Santa Claus, it's about teenagers and young adults doing what they've done for years: vandalizing the silly displays that old farts put out at Christmas time.* These are the same young people who think it's great to smash jack o'lanterns at Halloween.

*I'm imagining the logic of those who choose to steal Baby Jesi. These words do not reflect my own feelings regarding people who choose to set up religious displays on their private property.

[Phillycat]

116. Awesome. Good for them.

WOULD Jesus use that much electricity? I think not. :)

[progmom]

122. Ah hah - good point.

But if we're talking about Jesus, the man who lived 2000 years ago, well then...prolly he would have used none.
:shrug:

[Phillycat]

132. Hee! True!

[DarkSim]

117. Wrap up (hopefully)

You are all wrong. This thread has gone rediculously off topic.

the fact is: Stealing a baby jesus from a cradle could have just been vandalism - it does not necessarily have to have any religious motivation. It is wrong but is not comparable to drawing swasticas on jewish graves as the drawing of a swastica is likely 100% to do with religious hatred and the stealing off a plastic doll and planting a sing asking "Would Jesus use this much electricity?" could just be motivated by the fact that the people with the jesus doll were using shitloads of electricity.

This thread has been completely pointless.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Now shutup and go back to work. :P

[Laughing Mirror]

118. If they can afford to pay the electric bill for their extravagant displays

They should also be prepared to pay for an armed security guard full-time to protect their unchained-down property from any looters or pranksters that might find it too tempting.

[genieroze]

125. I like this part.

"It's ironic that a holiday which is essentially about poor people having a baby in an animal's food trough is represented with these expensive ornaments."

[Cheswick2.0]

126. would Jesus use lots of Gas driving around swipping peoples

property?

[Mad_Dem_X]

133. Good Point, Cheswick

Swiping something off a person's property is not a Christian thing to do. x(

[leftofthedial]

130. Like the "support our troops" ribbons on a Ford Excursion

all irony escapes the religiously insane.

what's next?

perhaps they'll take poor people and grind them up in the chipper-shredder to use as fertilzer for the jesus lawn down at the church/mall/business headquarters.

that would at least be more honest and direct.

one would think this would only be "news" if the baby jesus was ripped from mary's womb.

plus, these holiday pranks have been going on for as long as I can remember. it is only in these theofascist times that they have been given a religious connotation. I frigging HATE our media.

[Cheswick2.0]

142. People put up these displays because the neighborhood kids love

the lights. I don't do it, but if others want to that is their business. Calling people religiously insane is just plain bigotry.
I wonder what the theives were driving when they went around stealing property. Bet it was an SUV.

[arwalden]

147. You Presume Facts Not Yet Entered As Evidence

I don't put up my lights because "neighborhood kids love the lights". While it may be true that kids do love my lights, I do NOT put them up BECAUSE they enjoy the lights.

Which neighborhood kids are you referring to? Did you interview them? All of them? How do you know for sure that they love the lights? Maybe they don't like the lights. Maybe some of the figurines frighten them.

[leftofthedial]

151. you mean there are no people who are religiously insane?

calling me a bigot is hate speech.

we enjoy holiday lights as much as anyone, but once you cross the Griswold Family Christmas limit, you need to start unplugging some of the crap.

Perhaps the theft of jesus was a symbolic statement by those who think jesus wouldn't approve of wasting electricity when thousands are dying in the desert over oil. Perhaps it was teenagers on a lark. Perhaps it was the evil spirit of Lucifer, prowling the streets of Sheboygan looking for souls to steal.

Whatever it was, it wasn't news.

[txaslftist]

179. absolutely right.

no more than the teenagers who smash my pumpkins every year or the guy who keeps taking my parking spot. 1300 dead in Iraq and we're talking about a $4.00 plastic jesus. What if they'd boosted one of the penguins, too?

[tx_dem41]

190. "Religiously insane" - By your sweeping generalization that you ...

use in your post, I'm starting to wonder if the past vandalisms have just all been pranks.

[GinaMaria]

139. it's always baby jesus

Happens every year in Chicago at Daley plaza (don't get me started on separation of church and state, my tax dollars being used ect). This year the theif was caught. Is it because baby jesus looks like a doll, is easy to steal or easy to hide under a coat? Never understood it. I think one year he was substituted with a cabbage patch kid.

It's almost becoming a tradition like the lighting of the tree.

[strobetoad]

149. Swiping Baby Jesus Nothing New

The Xian Right will capitalize on these incidents while they can, but this sort of seasonal petty vandalism has been going on for a very long time, long before "The Folks" started "Sticking Up For Christmas".

[leftofthedial]

152. put down that baby jesus

and hand me a viper

praise gawd

[okieinpain]

164. ok, now I know it was one of you du'ers. the jesus deal is a dead give

away. by the way, my hats off to you. funny shit.

[jman0]

165. swiping baby jesus / smashing pumkins, hey get into the holiday spirit!

[MadHound]

167. You're shocked and offended by this? HA! That's a laugher friend

Before you get up on your soapbox and start preaching morality and persecution to the rest of us, why don't you look to your own house first. The millions upon millions of innocents killed by those professing to be Christians, or performing such acts in the name of Christ. The billions of dollars looted over the years by shams, fakes and con men all in the name of Christ and the hereafter(can you say selling indulgences) How about the land and lives laid to waste, all in the name of Christ and Christianity. The list of Christian transgressions is nigh endless, yet you're getting all up in arms about a little harmless vandilism, calling it persecution and a hate crime? Give me a break friend, and get a grip on reality. If you truly believe in what you say, I suggest you go over to Iraq, and talk to the victims of our little crusade over there(and yes, the Iraq war is not only about oil friend, but it is about wiping out another entire religion. Don't believe me, then why is Bush calling it a crusade, why do you think all of the RW fundies are supporting this war in all of its genocidal glory, why do you think that there are literally thousands of Christian missionaries on the ground there, coming in right after the start of the war?) Or talk to the Native Americans and Hawaiians in this country who were forced to either convert or die.

I really suggest that you call down, get a grip on reality, both historical and present day, and that you take that log out of your eye before you start talking about the beam that is in others'.

[purduejake]

210. I agree. Christianity is ripping this country apart, not to mention

Iraq. Ugh, who gives a damn about a stupid lawn ornament? I'd love to rip religious symbols away from people too after all the harm they do in the name of Christ. (but I don't)

[tx_dem41]

212. Umm....what about the non-Christian murderers...

such as the atheists, Stalin and Mao.

Why don't we all get our houses in order?

[purduejake]

214. Agreed.

[MadHound]

222. Well, first off friend, I'm not an atheist

Secondly, I'm not up on a soapbox loudly proclaiming persecution over an act of vandalism. Third, while there have been plenty of atheists over the years who have engaged in mass murder, genocide, etc, at least they're not being hyporcrites and declaring that they're doing it in the name of their God, who is, interestingly enough, supposedly a God of Peace. Fourth, the number of atrocities committed in the name of Christianity far outstrips the number of atrocities committed in the name of some other religion.

And the whole trouble is that instead of getting their house in order, Christians, especially the RW ones, are either ignoring what is going on in the name of their God, or they are actively encouraging or participating in it.

Tell you what friend, get back to me when you're truly persecuted OK, you know, like your life threatened, your family threatened, the things that Christians are now doing to non-Christians everyday worldwide.

[tx_dem41]

226. Your "ism" is worse than my "ism".....

Don't you think the comparison of death totals between isms is a bit .....useless?

[MadHound]

232. No friend, I think it is all a shame and a sham.

What I'm trying to point out is that you need to take the log out of your eye before you start complaining about the beam in mine.

I'm also pointing out that this stance that RW fundies are taking about how damn persecuted they are is hypocritical horseshit, and that it should be treated as such. Crying persecution over a bit of minor vandalism(which happens every Christmas somewhere in this country) is over the top and needlessly divisive. Like I said earlier, get back to me when you're getting killed in the name of atheism. Until then, all this type of garbage does is further divide the populace.

[tx_dem41]

236. From many posts I have seen on this forum....

...showing blatant disrespect for symbols and tenets of Christianity (and I am not talking about the original post) directed at our fellow Democrats, I am now certain that such persecution exists. Whether it is organized and effective, we can both probably agree on (at least).

And, btw...I'm an atheist, FWIW.

[MadHound]

241. Oh puhleeze, here, pull my other leg friend.

Now you are saying that words, posted on an anonymous political chat board, that are prefaced with "RW fundies" "conservative Christians", "religious right" or some other term designating, well, RW fundies are somehow, someway persecution? Whoa, don't give me any of what you're smoking friend, and you should put the pipe away.

You want to know what persecution is? It is when you get pulled over repeatedly by the police, walking or riding a bike, because you have long hair. It is getting the shit kicked out of you by the police, because you dared to exercise your constitutional right to peacefully protest. It is getting killed by somebody because of your religious persuation, or your race, or your sexuality. Get it, persecution is an action friend, sometimes it is an action combined with words. But it is never, ever words alone.

If there is such a large amount of "persecution" going on here at DU, then it should be easy for you to pull up oh, say, twenty, twenty five examples for me, eh? Until then, all you're doing is blowing hot air, degrading this board, and contributing to the problem.

[tx_dem41]

243. Why are we suddenly talking about racial and other forms of....

discrimination as if only one type can exist? Hey, I'm a rational human being, so let's talk on an intellectually honest level.

I believe that people speak honestly on this board, so I take what they say at face value. If you don't, so be it.

And, please, don't call me "friend". It creeps me out.

[MadHound]

250. Do you even read what you post?

"Why are we suddenly talking about racial and other forms of discrimination as if only one type can exist" Read that carefully, for the full foolish effect. ". . .racial and other forms of discrimination as if only one type can exist" Apparently from your own words you believe that we're talking about more that one form of discrimination or persecution. So what's your beef again? Oh, yeah, I didn't mention religious discrimination or persecution right? But I did, if you go back and read my previous post I said: "You want to know what persecution is? It is when you get pulled over repeatedly by the police, walking or riding a bike, because you have long hair. It is getting the shit kicked out of you by the police, because you dared to exercise your constitutional right to peacefully protest. It is getting killed by somebody because of your religious persuation, or your race, or your sexuality. Get it, persecution is an action friend, sometimes it is an action combined with words. But it is never, ever words alone."

Notice, I mentioned getting killed because of your religious persuasion. So again, I ask, what is your beef? That I'm calling you out on your definition of persecution, that I find it foolish that you feel persecuted because somebody on DU is saying something mean about "all" Christians(and I'm still waiting for those examples I asked for)? Because I think that real world persecution is going on under the name and with the blessing of RW fundelmentalism? Or is it because I find this whole issue of this RW fundie getting up in arms over a little vandalism completely ridiculous, and am speaking out about it? What is it, that I try to be civil and polite and call you friend? Geez, you wouldn't get along very well in many cultures in this world, for there are a lot that use the pronoun of friend when speaking with complete strangers. It even goes on in this country. It is called being, well, friendly. Sorry if it creeps you out, but quite frankly that's your problem. I won't be calling you friend anymore in this thread, but hey, the memory is short, and I can't make any promises about future threads.

So once again, what's your beef?

[flvegan]

169. Does this cancel Christmas?

[depakid]

171. Oh come on- this just is more Washington Post propoaganda

designed specifically to further the far right's "religious persecution" dogma.

How anyone can take the Washington Post at face value after these last 4-5 (actually over the past 10) years is beyond me. I seriously doubt that there's any higher incidence of vandalism here that can't be explained by higher reporting, the poor economy or by habits developed during the campaign.

About 10 years ago, I was in Australia and they were in a miff about a rash of stolen or defaced garden gnomes across the country. Being Austrlians, they took the vandalism seriosly, and you'd read where people were being prosecuted for pinching gnomes and for receiving stolen ones.

This "story" even if true isn't any different.

[Name removed]

173. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

174. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

175. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

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[SheepyMcSheepster]

182. i guess the guy who stole the CD player from my car is anti-music?

or maybe just pro-silence?

[txaslftist]

189. should have stolen the polar bears.

theft of the illuminated plastic penguins and polar bears probably would have offended the native Antarcticans, however.

[truthisfreedom]

187. theft is theft.

whatever the reason. take 'em away, danno.

[LiberalFighter]

193. Would Jesus use/need ANY electricity?

Didn't need electricity back in that time.

The star supposedly took care of everything.

[bobbyboucher]

194. More wedge-issue horseshit from the peddlers of division.

This whole thing is a bunch of bullshit. For all we know some poor person stole the baby and wrapped it up and put it under their tree for their baby daughter. Did ya think of that, dumbshit?

The note on the house about electricity is spot on, they are wasting the resources placed here on earth by their benevolent savior and his father and their partner in all things glorious, the holy ghost. The all knowing, all omniscient trifecta.

These Christian whiners are getting out of hand. If certain portions of our society would quit being led around by their religious shorthairs, we might all come together and fight back against the monumental grift that is going on.

[Ganja Ninja]

198. I'm willing to bet it's another fake outrage.

Looks like a Parlock copycat to me.

[bobbyboucher]

205. I would not doubt that a bit. Anything to further their dilusion.

"THEY STOLE THE BABY JESUS!!!!!" That sounds like bullshit to me.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

208. Amen, Bobby!

:yourock:

[txaslftist]

195. missing baby...shouldn't the parents be suspects?

I mean they seem kind of lackluster...Maybe we'll go down to the police station....

I think the plastic baby jesus will be found buried in the basement under freshly but amateurishly poured cement.

[Vanje]

202. It wasnt theft or vandalism. It was a MIRACLE!

The spirit of the infant Jesus took a look around from his position in his glowing plastic perch, and the poor plastic representative of Christ on Earth simply walked away in disgust.

[AgadorSparticus]

203. you make a very big assumption that this is a strike at christianity.

the sign left is about electricity usage. i think it touched a nerve because the person used jesus to poignantly make their statement. and the thing is, jesus probably WOULDN'T use all that electricity to hoist statues in the yard to make yet another religious statement.

[txaslftist]

207. Actually...

the baby jesus was probably taken because it was the smallest and most easily boosted/concealed part of the whole, gaudy display. Religious belief was likely sublimated to the practical reality of efficient theft.

[sled]

228. "Oh ye of little faith"

Matthew 8 - Verse 26

"And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm."

Merry Christmas to all, & to all a good night! ;-)

[Moderator]

251. Locking This Thread

No longer productive.