BeliefNet chooses soldier Tillman as inspiration of the year

[Moloch]

Pat Tillman seemed to have it all: celebrity, a multimillion-dollar NFL career and a supportive family.

Yet he walked away from it all to join the Army Rangers after 9/11. He paid with his life when he was killed in April by friendly fire in Afghanistan (news - web sites).

His example has prompted the editors at the multifaith online community BeliefNet to name him the most inspiring person of the year.

BeliefNet is announcing the winner today. Tillman was selected from a list of 10 nominees, including former first lady Nancy Reagan, actor Christopher Reeve and Smarty Jones, dubbed the "people's racehorse."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=676&ncid=676&e=6&u=/usatoday/20041222/ts_usatoday/beliefnetchoosessoldiertillmanasinspirationoftheyear

[mhr]

1. Killed By US Friendly Fire And That Makes Him A Hero?

eom

[rfranklin]

3. Perfect symbol of the religious crusade lead by Bush....

Most similar to the Children's Crusade--

"In 1212, two groups - one from France, the other from Germany - set off on a crusade to the Holy Land. There was nothing unusual about this as many 'armies' had gathered before to fight the Muslims. The major difference about these two groups was that they were composed entirely of young children. These children became convinced that they would be protected by God and that because of this protection they would get to the Holy Land and take Jerusalem for the Christians.

Not a great deal is known about the Children's Crusade other than it was a disaster. The person who seemed to be in charge was a boy called Stephen of Cloyes. We know very little about him. We know that he was a shepherd and that in 1212 he was 12 years of age. With a peasant's background, he would not have been able to read or write and at his age he would have done very basic work around a farm....

"The children boarded seven boats in Marseilles and that was the last anything was heard of them.

However many years later a priest returned from traveling around northern Africa and he claimed to have met some of the surviving children (now adults). He claimed that two of the seven ships had sunk killing all on board and that pirates had captured the other five ships and the children were sold into slavery. White skinned children were considered to be a valuable prize in Algerian and Egyptian slave markets."


http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/children's_crusade.htm

[saigon68]

12. Kind of like "Kill your fellow human for Christ"

That's real inspiring !!! </sarcasm>

[tx_dem41]

37. How does fighting in Afghanistan....

equate to "killing for Christ"?

[saigon68]

71. Its the 9th Crusade

[proReality]

4. No, he's a hero because...

he "did the right thing" by dropping everything in his life to go "defend our country", according to my well-meaning but retarded right-wing family members.

[mhr]

6. So Because He Was "Stupid" Enough To Be Persuaded By Karl Rove's

Rhetoric and lies we are supposed to bow to his feet.

He died for a lie - the one were Bush said he would catch Ben Laden dead or alive - he was going to "smoke'em out one cave at a time."

Read Seymour Hersh's book, Chain of Command, and you will learn how badly Afghanistan was bungled by Bush and company.

Sadly, thousands more died for the same lie. More sadly, thousands are yet to die for the continuing lie.

[NNN0LHI]

7. The posters parents comments are not an uncommon occurrence

I know many people who say the exact same thing. But I also know that these same people are financially invested in this war very heavily. Wish I had a nickel for every time I heard one of these scum suckers say "war is good for the economy" during the last two years. Most claim to be god fearing Christians too.

Don

[tx_dem41]

38. So, I can assume from your post, that you have NO respect for

any member of our military?

[mhr]

47. Honorably Discharged Naval Officer - I Have respect For The Institution

But not the leadership that send men to die for no reason.

As for people that are duped into fighting and then escalated to hero status to satisfy the bloodlust of a nation - well you can imagine my reply.

[tx_dem41]

48. How exactly was Tillman "duped into fighting"? n/t

[AngryOldDem]

52. More to the point....

Who would everyone here choose for the honor?

Tillman gave up everything because he felt it was the right thing to do. He had the courage of his convictions. How many of us here could say we would have the same, under this or any other circumstance?

The man died doing what he thought he should be doing. If nothing else, have some respect for that.

[mhr]

54. Blind Allegiance To Failed Leadership Led To Nazi Germany

Are we to say the same about all those Germans that were duped by the Reichstag fire to follow Hitler?

[AngryOldDem]

58. Okay,

Do you make the same case about all these kids who got blown to bits in Mosul yesterday? And the thousand-plus who died over the past year?

Some serve in the military because they feel it is their duty to do so. Tillman obviously thought it was his. He didn't have to go. But he did. Courage of his convictions.

Comparing Tillman or any soldier who dies in this travesty to Nazism is offensive and insulting.

I may very well have a kid of my own over there in a few years. If the unspeakable should happen to her, please keep your condolences to yourself.

Sometimes I just don't understand how people think around here.

[rooboy]

73. Having heard the stories of my German in-laws...

who lost loved ones fighting for Hitler, the comparisons between Pat Tillman's death and the Nazis sound valid to me. Good people who did the right thing for the wrong people.

Just because you're an American doesn't mean you're right.

[AngryOldDem]

77. Whatever.

It seems that the reasons for being in Afghanistan at the time of Tillman's death were a little more justifiable than why we are in Iraq right now.

The man left a rather lucrative career under his own volition to serve his country because he felt at that time that it was the right thing to do. So people here naturally trash his memory.

Bill Maher, in his latest book, writes about Tillman's choice to leave football for the military. I wish I could reproduce it here, but for obvious reasons I can't. Go read it.

And I'm sure that those people whom I know have their kids serving in the Mideast right now are comforted by knowing that some of their fellow citizens see their children as nothing more than Hitleresque pawns. I'm fairly certain, too, that it must bring great comfort to the Tillman family.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

93. You're overlooking one thing:

Afghanistan should not have been our target, and ground troops should never have been sent there.

You seem to be locked into a way of thinking that does not allow you to see other points of view. That's a common mistake made by youngsters who tend to believe what their government tells them, or who believe what military recruiters tell them, and who lack the expansive frame of reference that would enable them to understand that governments lie, recruiters lie, and Afghanistan and Iraq were our wrong targets.

Everyone grieves, OldDem, and those families who "are comforted by knowing that some of their fellow citizens see their children as nothing more than Hitleresque pawns" should understand - and you should, too - that we are a people blessed with the right of free speech.

You'd do well to keep that in mind.

I'm sure the Tillman family takes great comfort in knowing that our government lied to them about the circumstances of their son and brother and husband's death, don't you?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

92. The soldiers getting killed in Iraq,

along with the soldier like Tillman, who bought it in Afghanistant, have died useless and meaningless deaths.

They signed up for the National Guard, a lot of them, and they're hardly doing what they signed up for.

This isn't a war, don't forget - it's an invasion and an occupation, and, beyond all that, it's immoral.

I feel so sorry for those kids, and the older Guardsmen called back to duty. They're stuck in a system that's been corrupted by monsters.

[StopDiggingTheHole]

40. So why not send your missive to his family

Do you suppose they would like to hear their dead son called stupid by a Democrat on a Democratic website? I'm guessing they would not like it one bit. It's often too easy to publish words that only deepen the wounds.

[mhr]

46. If They Want To Live In Denial Of Reality That Is Their Affair

I call it the way I see it.

Reality bites sometimes.

[StopDiggingTheHole]

49. Reality if often ones own opinion

As in your case for instance. You neither know the victim or his family. After you interview his family and get their side then maybe your vision of their reality will mean something.

[mhr]

53. Ah, And You Are An Expert - I Don't Buy Your Posturing

eom

[tx_dem41]

55. He says something perfectly rational...

yet you reject it. Sigh.

[StopDiggingTheHole]

56. I am an expert in my own reality

And tend to not project it upon others without knowing them first.

[hyphenate]

87. That doesn't make him any less of a hero

The man took up the cause and because he didn't have anything to assume the war was false, he went, leaving behind everything he held dear. He IS a hero, just went without any doubts about the purpose of the mission.

[jellybelly]

94. too bad he did die

he didn't have to die for the lies he believed. I feel sorry for him and his family.

[captain jack]

10. Ask those retards, DEFEND IT FROM WHAT???

[vs the introvore]

72. recognize individuality, admit emptiness, yield faith.

look, no doubt this cat kicks mofo ass. he did some shit, competitively, that few can attest to. then he goes and does shit that few walk away from or even volunteer for SANE. now i am not saying that any of this implies heroism. but most f***ers never need oblige the devil for their lucky stars. what are you gonna fight for??? i mean, to the death? probably nothing, never. e we are busy believing our typing and thinking is gonna save something. just our lardasses. how many of you live in chairs? i am not judging. because i believe that we need as many smart pontificators as we need hard-charging, squared-away soldiers. (well, maybe less soldiers but only if they were twice as hard+square.) so this dude is a hero because he gave up the ridiculous american dream for something animated and real in his own life. no glory- just the moments of living for the sake of trying to stay alive under adverse mofo-ing circumstances, man. ok he gave all that plush shit up. the fact that he was killed from friendly fire should be on a frikkin billboard, though.
tells the kids back how it is being a character in a video game. peace

[MADem]

24. Shot by your buddy, but hey, it was for FREEDOM

It does not make me think of him as a hero. It makes me think of him as a sad duped fool, who bought the bullshit, with absolute, total, sincerity, who acted out of patriotism that was no doubt real, and paid for it with his life.

It makes him a victim. But not a hero.

For the life of me, I wonder how much longer people are going to keep eating the stale, cheap Hero Sandwiches doled out by our government. Dead heroes don't raise their kids, pay the bills, and "put food on their families."

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

2. Pat inspires me, too.

He inspires me to resist this administration, which led us into this FUBAR'ed clusterfuck, in which Pat was killed for the crime of being an idealist and hiding behind the wrong rock, while members of "The Video Game Generation" were going for the next level score. At him.

All while someone was having their genitalia hooked up to a hand-crank generator, while chained to a floor, by DIA operatives masquerading as FBI agents.

Hmm...I wonder how the John Wayne movie would treat all this?

[NNN0LHI]

5. Must have missed Chickenhawk John Wayne starring in the Green Berets?

This was all covered decades ago when he played the part of Colonel Mike Kirby fighting them mean old Communist (terrorist?) Vietnamese who were preparing to take over the world.

Don

[mumon]

8. The amusing thing about this...

is that Tillman wasn't a member of any religion.

[depakid]

14. Those were my exact thoughts.

Remember what his brother said at the funeral? It wasn't very flattering to religion.

On the other hand, beliefnet is a pretty good site overall and has a lot of good writing on contrasting relious and spiritual beliefs-although it is odd that their other top vote getter was also a war hero (victim).

[Stockholm]

9. Wonder what Tillman would say about the honour?

Oh, wait he can´t. Guess the other realistic candidate for Beliefnet was the horse.

[saigon68]

11. Tillman is either praying with the Angels-- or shoveling coal

At this very minute.

[VegasWolf]

22. or .. poofed into nothingness! n/t

[saigon68]

26. Yes a distinct THIRD possibility

[hatrack]

13. Odd - no one cited what Tillman's brother said at his funeral

After thanking people for their support, he spoke bluntly regarding Pat being "in Heaven". He stated, "He's not in Heaven - he's fucking dead."

How did this end up on beliefnet? After some judicious editing and scrubbing, I suspect.

[PurityOfEssence]

20. Right. He was either an atheist or agnostic, and fought against religious

extremism. Tillman enlisted specifically to fight against fundamentalist terrorism, and his brother pointed out his non-belief at the memorial service. Not only was Tillman not a believer, it looks like he was taking up arms against the armies of fanatical belief.

Boy, did these idiots ever get it wrong.

The God Squad will twist any facts to "prove" that all decent people really are believers. Yes, Virginia, there are atheists in foxholes.

According to MAAF (the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers), there is a higher percentage of non-believers in the military than in the general public, and this was also true in World War 2 and Vietnam.

Not only does the religious right get it wrong, they get it really wrong.

[Algomas]

15. I think a Darwin Award is more appropriate!

[DownNotOut]

16. Everyone needs

their paper heros.... I dont know about you, but my heros dont fight illegal wars for a chimp of a man.

My hero is the dude at 7-11 down the street that works night and day to feed his family on minimum wage. He's not real smart but he sure has his values!


DownNotOut

[progressivebydesign]

17. Walking away from MONEY and FAME makes you a hero...

I guess the people killed yesterday in Iraq, with families, and homes, and jobs back home are not that special because they weren't millionaires. America is a sad, sad, greedy place.

Tillman is a hero, just as the others who die fighting for their country.. No MORE no LESS. It makes me sick to see how MONEY, once again, is the measure of a man.

[SKKY]

18. What really sickens me about some of the comments here...

...is the total hypocrisy some of my fellow DUers display. We complain that the "haves" don't do enough to defend this country and applaud Michael Moore when he points that fact out, but then when someone does something, we try and pick them apart and call them "Rambo" and "Killer". I don't understand people sometimes. I mean, could anyone in this room say with total honesty that they would turn down fame and forture to enlist in the Army and help defend the country?

[sleipnir]

19. People are frustrated with the media and how it turns good people bad

Tillman did what he thought was the right thing. And I'll challenge anyone here who thinks that overthrowing the Taliban in Afghanistan was a "bad idea." We needed to invade and destroy the Taliban, for example, they were making all non-Muslims were armbands identify them by religion and blowing up non-Muslim artifacts. Sounds familiar to another despotic regime in the '30s.

The problem came with Rummy's bungling of the war and now it's a fucking quagmire with no end in site. The media fails to question how the war got mishandled and would rather promote stories about football players who enlist and make them out to be great heroes. He wasn't a "hero" he was an American doing his perceived duty (with little to no fanfare until his death) and should be honored as such.

The media will forecast victories and defeats at the drop of a hat, but it's the true soldiers who fought trying to defeat evil, but wound up being a cog in a exploitive wheel of war profiteering.

Sure, the released details of his death lead one to believe Tillman made some mistakes regarding the chain of command, which may have lead to his own death. Still, he was out there for a reason and we shouldn't forget the one's to blame are in Washington lining their pockets with cash while the tyrants of the Taliban have failed to be captured. Instead we lock up thousands of innocent people in Gitmo who only have a wisp of a link to the regime or terrorism.

[tx_dem41]

36. So...how does all that make Tillman a "bad" person...as your post

subject implied?

[AngryOldDem]

80. Beg to disagree

Then criticize the people who sent Tillman there, not Tillman himself. By your logic, people here should be hailing Tillman as a martyr, and not comparing him to Nazis.

Some of the posts here are hateful and disrespectful, and I will not sugar-coat them as being anything BUT hateful and disrespectful.

Beating a dead man out of one's "frustration" does not advance one's cause one iota.

[Mz Pip]

21. Frustration is a good discription.

It's often hard to separate out the individual reasons people have for enlisting with the RW's ideological spin.

I feel nothing but sadness when I think of Tillman and all the other young people who signed on for this. Cutting him down because he was killed by friendly fire reminds me a lot of Ann Coulter's trashing of Max Cleland's war wounds. It's just wrong.

Anger and frustration bring out the worst in people.

Mz Pip:dem:

[txaslftist]

23. frustration?

Tillman enlisted because he believed in SOMETHING strongly enough to be willing to risk death for it. He didn't have to. We need to be careful as anti-war patriots not to confuse the war with the soldiers. I don't know what Tillman's religious beliefs were or even if they had anything to do with his going. I do know that after 911 I would have enlisted myself if I were younger, because at the time I believed that our govt was going to respond with strength and intelligence. I would have enlisted for the same reason Kerry did, so some poor sucker wouldn't have to go in my place, as a matter of principle.

It was * who betrayed us, pursuing an irrelevant war and using 911 as an excuse to invade Iraq to bring about a 'regime change' that Rummy and his neocon fellaters had been seeking for years before 911. The soldiers do not deserve to be maligned because the cic is a lying sos. As far as I'm concerned, they are all heroes.

[Mz Pip]

35. Uhhh

I'm not disagreeing with you.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[billyoc]

25. Tillman IS an inspiration,

killed in a botched mission,
against a worthless target,
in a useless war.

That will inspire many soldiers to not re-enlist.

[StopDiggingTheHole]

42. FYI, He was fighting the 911 artists in Afghanistan - Not Iraq

You *do* realize this minor fact don't you?

[marylanddem]

57. Yep

One can feel compassion for Mr. Tillman and his family but whitewashing the facts about his unnecessary death - as the American military did - is shameful.

[tx_dem41]

27. Why does Tillman deserve some of these comments that exist...

...in this thread? I think anyone that would leave a job that paid that much money and go to fight in Afghanistan at least deserves some respect...and does not deserve the derision he has received from several on this thread.

[txaslftist]

28. THANK YOU!

[AngryOldDem]

78. Beats me

How many of us would be willing to do the same for ANY cause?

He saw an obligation, he went to fulfill it.

[lastliberalintexas]

82. But does he deserve special kudos?

What about the men and women who are serving right now whose families are having trouble paying the bills? The families where both the mother and father have been deployed and the kiddos are with family or friends? The people who've lost marriages and businesses as a result of their deployment? What about the 1300+ we've lost in Iraq and the other 100+ we've lost in Afghanistan?

Tillman might not deserve derision, but he doesn't deserve to be lauded more than these others, just because he walked away from the almighty dollar.

I'd say he's a victim, just like all the others. While the Taliban regime was evil, we did nothing about them until they denied Georgie and his friends their request for an OIL PIPELINE. Tillman is just another young life wasted in this administration's greedy crusades. Sorry, but there isn't anything special about that. Just sadness.

[daleo]

29. I don't know - a horse?

And a horse whose main purpose is amusing gamblers? I have been to the racetrack plenty of times - you'll hear plenty of superstition and appeals to God there, but it still isn't much of a church.

[u4ic]

51. If Smarty Jones is the people's horse

where the hell is my share of his $8 million dollar earnings?

The 'inspiration' comes from a modest pedigree, a broken eye socket when he was younger, his (very elderly) owner's previous trainer was murdered and, of course, they were hyping him as the reincarnation of Secretariat when he basically beat one of the worst 3 yr old crops in living memory :eyes:

[VegasWolf]

30. Wonder what religion Smarty Jones belonged to? n/t

[daleo]

62. Whatever its name, you can bet God looks like a horse. n/t

[American Tragedy]

31. I'd just like to disassociate myself from some of the comments here

My fellow DUers disappoint me.

He acted in good faith and paid the ultimate personal sacrifice in a tragic incident. Surely this guy is not the one who deserves to be torn apart here.

[txaslftist]

34. I agree with you.

Putting any kind of disparagement on a poor soldier who lost his life because his commander in chief is an idiot seems just despicable to me, like calling anyone in uniform a "baby killer" during Vietnam. That kind of rabid anti-militarism is not where we should be.

[DownNotOut]

59. You are being duped

by opportunism. I question your ability to reason past what *'s press feeds you each morning.

DownNotOut

[American Tragedy]

63. Really? Why is that?

Because I don't choose to take out my political frustrations on a victim of failed foreign policy?

From what I can tell, Tillman made a rash but well-intentioned commitment in reaction to a sudden disaster, just like millions of idealistic young people in the past century. That's hardly a reason to condemn him; nor is he to blame if his demise is used for propaganda by the establishment.

Do you know something that would justify a contradictory interpretation, or does it just make you feel better to blindly assume evil intent of every single person in the military?

[SoCalDem]

65. The fact that he died saying.."I'm Pat f-ing Tillman, damnit", pretty much

tells me that he thought he had "special immunity" because....

a.) of who he WAS
b.) he was being patriotic
c.) he thought God would protect him
d.) he did not appreciate the fact that in real wars, ANYONE can die

take your choice

[American Tragedy]

66. That is one of the reasons that young men fight wars

They often don't have a mature sense of their own mortality, or that of others.

[redtapeiskillingme]

32. Do you have a problem with that?

[bobthedrummer]

33. Don't forget: "Freedom is on the march.".

:argh:

[ElectroPrincess]

85. Yes, and being killed by YOUR OWN PEOPLE is just plain *TRAGIC*

The Pentagon finally "came clean" and admitted that Tillman died of friendly fire. Bizarre and tragic but NOT an appropriate sacrifice story.

[mountainvue]

39. He was killed by friendly fire.

Did they just happen to forget to include that tidbit?

[tx_dem41]

44. I'm sorry....I find it difficult to understand how that makes a difference

Can you help me out?

[Taverner]

41. How about "biggest waste of a perfectly good person"

Jeez the whole Tillman thing gets me down. He sacrificed everything for his country, and they killed him. I don't blame Afghani insurgents, I blame Bush for this one.

[The_Casual_Observer]

43. Tillman died for nothing

Tillman was a fool. Anyone who believes otherwise is also a fool.

[tx_dem41]

45. I would hope then that most people

at DU would consider themselves fools in response to this one post.

I hope no one that you love ever dies tragically. And, if they do, I hope they never have to read a post such as yours.

[DownNotOut]

60. How many more times

do you need to be straight up run over by thuglicans before you put your gloves on. Grow a spine and get in this fight! Tillman is a thug poster boy and you are taking that bait.


DownNotOut

[tx_dem41]

76. I'm not taking any bait.

If you think that showing disrespect for the dead is the way to gain leadership in this country, go for it.

I guess I was just raised a different way. And, quite frankly, I'm proud of it.

[AngryOldDem]

81. And we wonder why we can't get mainstream America

to get behind the Democratic Party.

We are our own worst enemies, and this thread PROVES IT.

[lastliberalintexas]

84. Maybe because "mainstream" America

buys into the same fairy tale fables that some here have? Tillman might not deserve derision, but a hero? Why- because he was fighting in Bush's war for the OIL PIPELINE that the Taliban had denied? You do know that was the reason we invaded Afghanistan, correct? That up until they denied the request for the OIL PIPELINE, Bush, his cronies and the Taliban were on FRIENDLY terms, right? So maybe it's just that "mainstream" Americans are sadly un/misinformed, and *that's* why we can't get them to vote Dem.

Victim of this administration's greed? Certainly. Hero? I'll take my grandfather instead.

[AngryOldDem]

86. Then make your points

without the inflammatory rhetoric. Don't call a dead man a fool, a killer, or compare him to Nazis. Point out how this man died for a misguided, selfish, nationalistic cause, and why that didn't have to be.

But trashing the man because you disagree with why he was there? Sorry, but as some of us have been trying to tell you, some people find that to be a little over the top, if not downright offensive.

I agree that most of America needs a good, old-fashioned consciousness-raising. But attacking a dead man is NOT the way to go about it.

[The_Casual_Observer]

89. Sorry to have offended you.

I doubt you would give a shit about offending all of the people in Iraq that didn't do squat to deserve to be vaporized by these brave patriots.

Your argument is exactly the same as that heard over and over between 1965-1972, and so is mine. I was right the first time too.

[AngryOldDem]

90. I mourn ALL life that has been lost in this senseless war

My argument is about having respect for the dead, and being able to differentiate between the POLICIES that are sending these men into war to die and the men THEMSELVES. It makes no difference to me if they are going out of a sense of duty, as Tillman did, or are being called up to go over there.

It's really a simple distinction -- too bad some here can't seem (or don't want) to understand that.

[saigon68]

70. I guess Adolph Hitler's mom should be sad with your logic.

Tillman wanted to KILL He joined to KILL

He got what he wanted--- except it wasn't the "SAND NIGGERS" or "RAG HEADS" who greased him ---

it was some of his own incompetent POSSE who did the "GREASE JOB"

WHEN YOU "FUCK" WITH THE BULL YOU SOMETIMES GET THE HORNS.

[Moloch]

75. Tillman wasn't a fool.

He went to war to defend his country against Al Qaida after the 9/11 attacks. While I wouldn't necessarily call him a hero, I think that he is a lot better than someone who went to war in Iraq because they wanted to kill Iraqis.

[NNN0LHI]

88. He wanted to kill Al Qaida in Afghanistan? His first deployment was to Iraq

You would think that if he was so bright, he would have said, "Hey wait a minute, I want to go kill them Al Qaida thugs in Afghanistan." And then he should have asked, "Why you sending me to Iraq?"

Don

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4815441/

<snip>The brothers both successfully completed training for the Rangers, the Army’s elite infantry regiment. Pat Tillman was first deployed to Iraq in March 2003; it was not immediately clear when he was sent to Afghanistan, where he served in the same unit with his brother.

[Catchawave]

50. Please don't mistake being anti-War

is a reason to take it out on our troops! This is how things got fouled up in Kerry's Day.

I mourn the loss of every American and Iraqi life in this stupid War for Oil.

[NNN0LHI]

61. Please don't mistake me for someone who is either anti-War or a pacifist

Because I am neither. I am against un-winnable wars. I am against wars that tend to create more "enemies" than we can possibly kill.

Don

[NNN0LHI]

74. I was about to be drafted in "Kerry's Day" for your information

I turned 18 in 1973, the same year the draft ended. And getting pissed off at anyone, troops or otherwise, is not what got fouled up in Kerry's Day. What got fouled up was the those who fell for the big lie and who thought it was their patriotic duty to go kill some poor bastard on the other side of the world who never had any intention of harming America. You won't find what I just said in any history books. And if people had not gotten pissed off back then we would still be killing Vietnamese today.

Don

[SoCalDem]

64. BeliefNet believes in "Fairy Tales"

Not surprising at all.. Outfits like this conjure up "stories" all the time, and as long as they keep pushing it, the public eventually "believes" it..

It's like the old Wandering Minstrels who told and retold tales to the uneducated locals..

If the "tale" is interesting and heart-tugging, who cares if it's a big fat lie??

[HuffleClaw]

67. celebrity status does not make one a hero

that being said, i've no real problem with this. he served his nation. (ok, for the wrong reasons) HOWEVER, i feel the 'sacrifice' made by someone who joined up to suppport their family is far more worthy than that of a celebrity.

[dave123williams]

68. I just don't get it....he's more of a posterchild for the failure of the

policy, on it's face;

They said irony was dead after 9/11. I disagree. Tillman was a brave young idealistic guy who answered the call. What he didn't realize was that the call has been given from people totally saddled with false piety, arrogance and greed.

Plus, he got shot by his own guys.

[gemlake]

69. I voted for Fantasia

but I'm really shallow. Sorry! I like her CD.

[Plaid Adder]

79. Uh...wasn't Tillman an atheist?

Isn't he the guy whose brother told everyone at the funeral that Tillman was an atheist, so he wasn't in heaven, he was "fucking dead?"

Weird the way things work out,

The Plaid Adder

[RuleofLaw]

83. Time for some wisdom

To all those people who glorifies the military and solders who blindly follow their leaders, i can only quote Albert Einstein:

"He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder - Albert Einstein."


http://www.hut.fi/~jalam/home/AlbertEinstein.htm

[DownNotOut]

91. Didnt he say this

while taking a coffee break at atomic test lab one....?

"Einstein's greatest role in the invention of the atomic bomb was signing a letter to President Franklin Roosevelt urging that the bomb be built."


DownNotOut