N.C. homeless shelter evicts pregnant woman, three sons

[zapp]

ELIZABETH CITY (AP) — The director of a homeless shelter says he was right to evict a 21-year-old pregnant woman and her three children after the woman violated one of the shelter's rules by allowing her children's uncle to visit in her room.

"We have to have order," said the Rev. Oliver S. Robinson, director of the Tabernacle of Faith Church Outreach Center. "She herself created this situation. She is a young woman who does not want to listen to anybody. And it don't matter what time of year it is, winter time, Christmas time, cold time or whatever."

Valan Garland and her three boys were evicted Tuesday from the shelter, where they had stayed for about four months while waiting for an income-based apartment to open. She paid $50 a month as a donation.

More....
http://www.news-record.com/news/now/shelterevict_122304.htm

[davidinalameda]

1. more Christian love

WWJD?

[arwalden]

91. "Jesus-would-have-done-the-same-thing" -- Rev. Robertson.

"These people need tough love," Robinson said. "I don't feel comfortable with it. God don't get no pleasure punishing us. But he does it. Jesus would have done the same thing."

What a sanctimonius scumbag he is.

[SemperEadem]

116. so now he claims to know the mind of God, too....

pride goes before destruction and a haughty spirit before the fall.

"The devil has to put it in your heart to put children out in the night three days before Christmas."

It is cruel, evil and satanic to put a pregnant woman out in the cold with 3 small children and then proudly boast about it as if you have a hotline to God's mind.

[zann725]

129. This is what happens when Gov. social programs go unfunded, but rely on

Churches to provide "help" for people in need...who are truly at the "mercy" of those helping them out.

Reminds me why I don't go to church.

[WildEyedLiberal]

2. I wonder if that assbag has any WWJD paraphrenalia

Because I'm pretty sure Jesus definitely wouldn't throw a pregnant woman and her kids out on the street (in time for Christmas, no less.) What an absolute lack of any sort of grace, especially for a "man of God."

[ilovenicepeople]

69. Thats a great picture of the FALL GUY

You know whats his name,that guy that's bUSH's 3rd cousin.He stared in that mockumentry about an election in America,it was a pretty good movie excpt it seemed to put people to sleep.:boring: :boring: :boring: :boring:

[LynnTheDem]

3. how "christian"...

:wow:

[puddycat]

118. I wish all you Christian bashers would start your own homeless shelters

I hear a lot of Christian bashing from some of you. But no where do I see a description of what exactly the Atheists are doing to fight homelessness.

[LynnTheDem]

121. I'm not an Atheist.

I'm a Christian.

And I will keep bashing "christians" for the trash that they are.

I wish "all YOU" people who jump to conclusions wouldn't.

[jayfish]

123. Give Me Tax Exempt Status...

and allow me to accept donations for no cause in particular and I would love to. I sure you'll be happy to drop some money on the plate.

Jay

[zann725]

130. Actually I don't think it's "Atheist" vs. "Christian". I think it's more

NON-religious based social aid vs. Religious-based social aid.

Before the early 80's when the Repugs started their drastic cut of GOVERNMENT social aid programs, homelessness was almost non-existent among families groups, disabled, women...elderly. That aid was applied for and distributed on a NON-religious, application-based decision of need. It allowed a certain dignity to the needy, in that the receipt of their need was NOT dependant upon their "converting to a particular religion" in order to be fed or have a roof over their head. And did NOT put them at the one-on-one whim of Church personnel whose 'agendas' for helping people may be more money-based and self-centered on the part of the Church than originally appears....as churches now are actually rewarded (given money) to provide such services. So their "generosity" is not really so in many cases. In fact, a budget-wise Church would do well to provide such services "frugally," and therefore be able to keep some of the government pay-outs they receive for such services...and actually use them within the Church itself. So it's NOT really about religious generosity in many cases anymore, but "Corporate Welfare"...with the Church now being just another corporation seeking tax breaks, aid and special privileges for going through the motions of helping out a few needy. And then kicking them out in the snow at Christmas.

If the Truth of that "generosity" offends you, it was NOT meant to. But what people are angry about here, I think..is NOT about "Religion" itself, but the lack of even a pretense of human kindness in an institution which should stand for so much more... particularly at Christmas!

[progdonkey]

136. missing the point

Lynn's quite obviously not impugning Christianity or Christian charity in her post, but rather the stark un-Christian behavior of this supposed reverend, who would throw a woman and her children on the street because she had the nerve to allow her brother to visit her.

[VegasWolf]

4. gotta love that christian feeling. n/t

[Bertha Venation]

5. Pray God life doesn't imitate art. John Grisham novel "The Street Lawyer"

has a young woman evicted illegally from a makeshift apartment; days later she & her four children are asphyxiated trying to stay warm overnight in their car.

Shame on you, "Reverend" Oliver.

[Ripley]

6. Jesus would have done the same thing?

LOL...these people are NUTS and CRUEL.

[DBoon]

7. Nothing like "faith based" charity

A public welfare agency doing this would get all kinds of legal grief.

You privatize welfare, you remove any accountability for how you treat the clients.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. There was no room at the inn

and apparently no room in these people's hearts. That the minister said "Jesus would have done the same thing" shows that he doesn't understand Jesus or His teachings, imho.

[VegasWolf]

9. She probably missed one too many prayer services. n/t

[mzmolly]

10. OMG

:eyes:

[DS1]

133. OH NO! OMG!!

[mbperrin]

11. How very....uh....Christian?

Robinson said. "I don't feel comfortable with it. God don't get no pleasure punishing us. But he does it. Jesus would have done the same thing."

Hmm...Jesus forgave the thief on the cross, forgave the woman taken in adultery, BUT someone's uncle visiting them in the shelter? (Accompanied by the aunt as well).

OUT!!!! Yes, he definitely would have pitched 'em out!

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

12. Dear Rev. Robinson:

You are an asshat, a Christian in name only. I am sure that the services you provide do not even come close to balancing with the rules and regulations and conditions that you lumber the residents with.

A special place in hell is being created for you, as we speak.

[ilovenicepeople]

73. At what point did the Luceferian's start calling themselves Christians?

The Great Deciever sure seems to have a huge fan base lately.God please send us an angel to help overthrow this great evil that is enslaving us.

[pschoeb]

140. Well Since Jesus called himself "Lucifer" probably pretty early

Lucifer is merely Latin for Morning Star. It comes from the Christian Latin translation of Isaiah 14:12, and was left in the King James Version.

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! "

In the Greek Septuagint version of Isaiah the word Lucifer is actually Phosphoros, which means again "Morning Star".

In 2 Peter 1:19, Jesus's is made analagous to the Morning Star, using the same Greek word Phosphoros.

"So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts."

Also In Revelations 22:16 Jesus calls himself the "Morning Star" again using the Greek word Phosphoros.

"I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

Of course in the orginal context of Isaiah, he is describing the King of Babylon, who would make himself a god and ascend into the Heavans(celestial sky, not some abstract modern Christian heavan). The Morning Star is in many ways a kind of pale imitation of the Sun, Isaiah was mocking the king who hopes to be a god, because even his pretentions to worldly power are a pale imitation to the Most High.

[pokercat999]

81. And if the world is lucky you will be headed there....soon. nt

[saigon68]

83. He's a Fundie ASSCLOWN

No doubt about it.

[Ilsa]

13. These man makes me embarassed to call myself a Christian. n/t

(Edited for more appropriate verb.)

[jayfish]

14. You'd Think She Stole...

a baby Geese'us doll or something. This angers me so much that what I really want to post might be considered "unlawful"

Jay


TYPO EDIT

[NorthernSpy]

15. that $50/month "donation" sounds suspiciously like rent

I wouldn't count out the possibility of a court finding that the woman was in effect a tenant, and was due the rights of tenancy. That woman needs, among other things, a decent lawyer.

I like to see nasty little men of the cloth like this Reverend Robinson get put in their places by the civil authorities. Here's hoping that happens in this case!

[donheld]

16. "the woman violated one of the shelter's rules

by allowing her children's uncle to visit in her room." Is this uncle jack the ripper or just a "heathen"


what was that about peace on where? good will toward,,,o i forget :eyes:

[caligirl]

50. I saw this all the time when I lived in the south. had a 12 year old

having her 1st kid. She didn't understand how it happened. Also saw an old man whom had his seventh or eighth kid, I heard him tell his doctor he didn't quite understand how his wife kept getting pregant, they were his kids. Ignorance in some communities that I witnessed living in Alabama, South Carolina and Florida was shocking. Living conditions were often not good. They were all African American with little education. The attitude of at least one doctor toward them in SC was shocking and unethical. I haven't lived there for along time.

[SoCalDem]

17. Flame me, but this 21 year old, pregnant with her fourth child

needs a serious intervention by SOMEONE.. How on earth can she ever make a decent life for her and her kids?? Someone needs to take this person into their home, and help her learn how to be a grown up.. She's not capable of running her own, let alone the lives of four very young kids.. It's a dangeroous world out there for vulnerable people like her and her kids :(

[jayfish]

22. Flame...

well, 1/2 a flame anyway.

Jay

[NorthernSpy]

25. I doubt that she'll get that kind of help from the church

That would have to include things like good family planning advice, and helping her get an education and plan a career. All she's likely to get from the Rev. Robinsons of the world is sermons about "abstinence" and the joys of stay-at-home motherhood.

Drill into people's heads the message that they are hopeless sinners and that everything is in Gawd's hands, and they might actually start to believe it. To their own -- and society's -- detriment.

[SoCalDem]

27. That's precisely why she needs MORE help than a bed at a shelter

She needs a mentor.. and quickly...

[AngryOldDem]

76. I work for a church-based group

That mentors people such as this mother all the time. We give all sorts of advice, but we don't interfere. The client being mentored knows we're a phone call away, if needed.

Without knowing the situation, if the woman in this story could find affordable and safe housing somewhere, she probably would not have to live in the shelter.

That is the true outrage here -- the lack of affordable housing, especially for the poor. And who do we have, in most part, to thank for that? Bush.

[Big Kahuna]

26. I'm not going to flame you...

but I live in kind of a poor rural area, and a 21yr old mom with 4 kids is not uncommon here.

What I object to is the common "she should just keep her legs closed" attitude. Yes, women should definately take responsibilty for their bodies, and their lives. Unfortunately, there is almost no cultural pressure on the "fathers" to live up to their responsibilities.

I know many single moms who are struggling, and have made dumb descisions in life, but mostly due to a desire for a normal simple life, and a "male gene pool" that leaves much to be desired.

[SoCalDem]

30. My point is that she's in a very desperate situation NOW, and it's

not gonna get better soon, unless she gets some help to get her life back on track.. The part about child support is a real problem. "Older guys" are often preying on very young girls, and once they become pregnant, the guy splits.. There is often no "relationship" there at all, and barring DNA tests, the girl may not even know the guy's real name..

There's only a few years to help this young woman. Her kids are going to experience a very chaotic, and perhaps dangeroous life, and the damage to them will just perpetuate the chaos into the next generation.

I hope that someone intervenes and steers her towards a group home or woman's shelter, where she can get some help.

[JanMichael]

55. She's at home now at her Mom's

I just got off the phone with the minister

[Sanity Claws]

37. I was thinking the same thing

Four children by 21? There is something wrong with that picture.

[SoCalDem]

52. I have a friend who had 4 by 21, BUT her husband was a union electrician

and they went on to have a 5th before she was 25. They had a huge extended family who pitched in, and even though they were not happy that these two married at 17 and proceeded to pop out 4 kids in 4 years, they helped in every way they could.. The oldest is now 17, and my friend surprised us all with yet another baby 18 months ago.. She's now 35 and has a 17,16,15,14,12, and 18 month old..

Yes, she's very busy, but her kids are great :)..and so is she:)

(she's DONE now):)

[rocktivity]

108. Originally posted by SoCalDem (post 52)

I have a friend who had 4 by 21, BUT her husband was a union electrician...these two married at 17...

Well, there's a big difference between that and having four kids, no spouse, no home, no income, and no employment prospects--they didn't expect the taxpayers to pick up the tab, and even at the age of 17, they were willing to help themselves instead of expecting their family or the government to pick up the tab.

:headbang:
rocknation

[merci_me]

114. We know nothing about the father

maybe he's like the man described in post #52 who was a union electrician. But, THIS father is living in the same BushCo world we all are living in.

Obviously, this so-called shelter wouldn't take him in, but it did take in the mother and children. Maybe he's on the streets or moving around trying to find work. But my guess is, if the PATERNAL aunt and uncle came to visit, there is more to the story about how the mother ended up at the shelter and where the father figures into the picture.

I'm curious about the fact that she was strapping THREE little ones into their car seats. What a struggle for someone eight months pregnant. It looks like she has a car and is responsible about the safety of the children.

Her mother lives in ONE room. If this is what she grew up with, maybe she wanted to have her own place and family much sooner than most of us would every want to. Her reality is different than mine and maybe yours, but it's still valid.

As to the number of children she has, maybe she believes in some fundie church teachings. Who knows the whole story. Just don't blame the victim. It's the pr!ck who thinks he speaks for Jesus who should be strung up.

Mary

[The Flaming Red Head]

98. It'd take an act of God for her to get a tubal ligation

If you're under a certain age, or a certain income, it's damn near impossible. I wanted one when I was 30 and I didn't have insurance and I called Human Services in Arkansas and they told me that I'd have get pregnant, again and deliver and then they do it after I had the baby, otherwise it'd be around 3-5 thousand dollars.

[Zomby Woof]

45. You're nicer than I am

If you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em.

[0007]

89. Who pays attention when the major urge strikes?

[Scout]

137. oh please.

"ooooh, I'm so horny, I just have to fuck! Who cares that I can't take care of the kids I have now and I might create another one ... I just have to fuck!"

If any man or woman cannot control themselves, they have serious problems.

[fortyfeetunder]

80. Mentoring vs tough love

The purpose of a mentor is to take interest and show avenues for an individual to succeed. Tough Love is a judgmental, authoritarian approach to correct at-risk behavior. That should have happened before this young woman got pregnant in the first place.

I would agree the woman needs mentoring, but tough love only goes as far with young adults. The horse so to say, is past the farm door and in the pasture. She now has the responsibility for 3 children plus pre-natal care for the child yet to be born.

[saigon68]

84. She will get the Soldier Breeding Machine Award from Chimpanzee

After all she is helping breed the next generation of poor, down and out enlistees for the U.S. Marine Corps, in their fight against the "Rag Heads", in the ever continuing, never ending 9th Crusade.

After all the poor are needed to fill body bags, transfer tubes and Halliburton's pockets-- not necessarily in that order.

</Sarcasm>

SHUT UP saigon its Christmas Eve.

[skippythwndrdog]

135. Agreed, this woman needs to keep her legs closed

and learn some personal responsibility. Of course the father(s) of these kids need to learn the same.

[Walt Starr]

18. Didn't Jesus have something to say about his?

Hmmmmm, let's look to Matthew, shall we?

Matthew 25

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:


36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.


37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?


38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?


39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?


40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:


43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.


44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?


45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.


46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

[Placebo]

19. We MUST have order, rules MUST be followed or society will COLLAPSE!

:crazy:

[AngryOldDem]

70. In a homeless shelter,

you need rules, they must be followed, or you risk a potentially dangerous and out of control situation.

That is just the way it is. Most people who use the shelters know and understand this, and readily agree to follow the rules. Those who do not are asked to leave.

[thegreatwildebeest]

119. Amusing...

This situation reminds me in alot of ways of Orwell's Down and Out in Paris and London, where he himself scrounged along inside shelters of victorian England. The obtuse, often times stupid rules they maintained were almost exactly that. They were not meant to "maintain" order anymore than to make the shelters into exactly what they are, which are prisons for the poor. The hilarious assumption here is that the homeless and the poor need more "rules" off the basis that they ARE poor and homeless. Somehow I don't see the moneybags of the world requriing "silly rules" such as who can see whom in what room, etc etc.

[RobinA]

20. Anybody on This Thread

have any experience operating a shelter for indigent women and children, or is everybody just talking through their hats?

What if the uncle has a coupla convictions for sexual abuse? Rape? Maybe he's the local drug dealer figuring those women at the shelter or easy targets for his wares. Maybe he's a sexual predator? The idea of a shelter is a place where women and children can be SAFE from the mayhem that unfortunately is frequently brought into their lives by men.

Shelters make rules crystal clear and they make the consequences crystal clear. Without enforcing them they will have the same chaos inside the shelter that the women are trying to escape from on the street. Maybe this woman should have thought of her children before she let the gut in.

[Ripley]

23. This is a HOMELESS shelter, not a battered women's shelter.

So who's talking through their hat?

[jayfish]

24. Well, Since The Story Really Doesn't Go...

into any detail about the valid concerns you bring-up, I will base my OPINION on the facts at hand.

Jay

[AngryOldDem]

77. And since the story DOESN'T go into the facts at hand,

isn't it wiser to defer to the experience of some here and say that there is not enough information to make an INFORMED opinion on whether the minister was right or wrong to expel the woman?

The only thing he should be nailed on are his dumb-ass comments.

These concerns are INDEED valid, especially when you consider that some women wind up in homeless shelters because they are fleeing abusive situations. We know nothing about this uncle. Right now, I'd err on the side of the safety and well-being of the other guests, until I know more.

[Sara Beverley]

29. I guess compassion and common sense have no role to play?

One thing for sure WOMEN do not get pregnant by themselves.

[Cruzin]

63. Then YOU take her in

She violated rules of a private entity who was giving her shelter. She knew the rules, and I bet signed her name to said rules, before she was afforded shelter. They have every right to enforce rules to living under their shelter. If she doesn't want to abide, then DO NOT RESIDE there.

[Scairp]

79. What about her children?

What did they do to deserve to get thrown out into the street two days before Christmas? This sounds like a minor violation at best, and should have been overlooked by the sanctimonious asshole who runs the place. And by you supposed liberals who believe in the spirit of the Golden Rule, but I guess not the actual implementation of it.

[xchrom]

85. charming attitude

:eyes:

[Cruzin]

90. Yeah, aren't I?

Expecting a houseguest to adhere to the rules of the house that is giving her room and boarder. Really, if she chose to smoke a crack pipe, then the rest should be tolerant. It's Christmas.

*Yes, that is sarcasm you see you in rear view window*

[NorthernSpy]

122. she was paying $50 per month -- not a "houseguest"

I guess you didn't notice that part. They may have called it a "donation", but it sure as hell looks like rent to me.

Unlike houseguests, who inhabit a domicile purely on the sufference of the owner, renters have rights of tenancy under law. If I were her, I'd take Reverend Whatthefuckshisname to court.

[MadHound]

31. Yes, I've worked at several shelters over the years

And in none of them, not even the strictest, was somebody thrown out for violating the visitation policy. In fact the only rules that were immediate toss outs were drunk/possession of alcohol, drugged/possession of drugs, or violently acting out. Anything else was generally dealt with by taking away privleges, extra chores, etc etc. Yes, this woman violated a house rule, but the punishment in this case far outweighed the crime. Especially a Christmas time, when most shelters ease up a little bit for the season.

[TheWraith]

44. You're creating unwarranted assumptions.

Point one has already been made, that it's a homeless shelter not a women's shelter. Second, I base my opinion on the facts of the article, and the comments made by the director. There's no evidence that there was anything less than kosher about the aunt and uncle. Furthermore, the 'Reverend' is quite obviously on a power trip. I've seen his ilk time and again--the manipulative, 'tough love' overcontrolling crusader type, taking pleasure in his power over the people he sees as being 'less rightous' than himself. They talk about how much it pains them to inflict shame and suffering on others, but they secretly enjoy the sense of power and godliness it makes them feel. In my opinion, he's a much bigger danger to the occupants of the shelter than the aunt and uncle could ever be.

[JanMichael]

57. Those "assumptions" were spot on

I just got off the phone with the minister---the poster who you responded to was right on the nose.

BTW--the woman and children in question are at her Mother's house now, and were never on the street.

Steph

[NorthernSpy]

59. you mean he broke confidentiality about persons served by the shelter?

Actually, the fact that he would spread personal information (whether false or true or partially true) about private individuals inclines me to believe that the poster Wraith has his type well pegged.

Shocking...

[JanMichael]

60. No, dear...he did not.

I am in school to be a minister also---so, I have a clue as to what is kosher to say, and what is not.

He was up and up about the safety of the other women in the shelter--and you know what? I happen to agree with him.

The woman is at home now, btw.

Stephanie

[TheWraith]

72. Right.

"He was up and up about the safety of the other women in the shelter"

Sure he was. Didn't seem too interested in mentioning that when he was talking to the paper did he? No sir, all about the RULES. Gotta show that 'tough love'. Nor was he apparently concerned about making sure that the paper knew that the woman (allegedly) hadn't been kicked onto the street. I call horseshit. When he had the spotlight, his ONLY concern was talking about THE RULES, how you can't break the rules, how hard it was for him to deal with 'these people'--real compassionate. More self pity and self aggrandizement than anything else.

[kurtyboy]

131. I have some experience. Chair of the Board for a Shelter

for a few years. I don't know about how the shelter in this place was run, but we had pretty strict rules at ours. Something like an unauthorized visitor was a first-strike-yer-out offense in every single case I know of.

As RobinA says, the security of the women and children--all of them--is the main concern. When one of the residents threatens that safety--of a couple of dozen others (in our shelter)--the rule must be enforced rigidly.

Now, we might have gone an extra few yards and helped to arrange for alternative shelter, in consideration of the children. But that's not the prime issue.

One other comment--four months in a shelter is pretty darned nice to be able to provide. We only allowed such long stays by exception--we simply didn't have the beds, and the incoming demand was so high, that a two-month plan was the rule. The organization I work with has tried for years to be able to provide long-term "transistional housing", but we just can't get the grants and donations to make it a reality yet.

For now, its crisis management, and that type of management SEVERELY LIMITS flexibility, as far as rule-enforcement goes.

But, again, I know nothing about the shelter in question, except that the one quote at the end was one of the stupidest I've seen in print from someone who expects to continue to get public donations. Idiot!!

EDIT TO ADD:

I'll cut a minor bit of slack for the moment on the quote---it sometimes happens that a reporter spins a story against the grain, for whatever reason. The fact that safety of other residents wasn't really mentioned in the story is a curious omission to me--I wonder why the reporter didn't try to explain the reason for the rule....

And one other point---It is not impossible for her to have met wwith relatives at some place OUTSIDE of the shelter. This is the way shelter residents are encouraged to meet with family. Why she chose to meet them there is a mystery. Couldn't she have arranged to get together elsewhere? We'll not know from reading the contents of this thread--that much is sure.

[Pastiche423]

21. These people?

"These are not the easiest people to deal with"

"These people need tough love"

Who are "these people"?

The poor?

[VegasWolf]

62. You know, psst, the "poor!" n/t

[AngryOldDem]

28. This happens sometimes, sadly....

My question: Was this the first time she broke shelter rules? Has she given the staff difficulty in the past?

Shelters typically give people many, many options and chances before evicting them.

Before I pass judgment, I need to know all the facts. What is this woman's history with this shelter?

Keeping order is the number one priority in operating a homeless shelter. If that is not kept, it is disruptive to the operation, disrupts the other guests, and invites all sorts of trouble.

Shelters have strict rules for a reason. If they are violated enough times by a particular guest, that guest is asked to leave, for the good of the other guests who are there, as well as for the staff.

But, I know...it's those damned heartless Christians again.

On EDIT: One more thing. Shelter staffs that have to make the decision to permanently evict do not take pleasure in doing so. It is a process that takes a lot of thought and prior discussion. It is not done lightly. Again, I know it makes no difference to you.

[Ripley]

33. So you think it is Compassionate to evict her on Xmas eve?

There are only 10 beds in this place. Can't they handle an uncle and aunt visiting right before Christmas? She has lived there for months. Why do you automatically defend this Reverend for being such a jerk at the most holy time of the year for Christians?

Do you really think Jesus would send her and her 3 kids into the street? For such an incredibly innocent transgression? How is it attacking Christians to label this guy for what he is? Scrooge.

[Festivito]

39. Could it be you who lacks compassion.

Suppose we have a belligerent person, a woman, mother, who bites the hand that feeds her by inviting a person of unknown background into a place with vulnerable persons. Not all uncles are avuncular.

Is your myopic compassion for the mother only? You show a lack of compassion for the others.

For some people it takes a ton of bricks they say. Are you really showing compassion for this woman by indulging her arrogance again?

Even Jesus told the arrogant to go away and give away all he had.

[Ripley]

42. What the hell are you talking about?

1. "indulging her arrogance" So because she is arrogant, it's the CHRISTIAN THING TO DO BY FORCING HER AND 3 small children and THE MOST SACRED OF ALL (according to fundies) -- A FETUS onto the streets in the winter, at CHRISTMAS?

2. My "myopic compassion"? What the hell does that mean? Should I have compassion for the Reverend who probably sleeps in a cozy bed with the heat on? What did she do that I need to show compassion for the others? The article says nothing about her jeopardizing other residents.

3. Where did Jesus tell the arrogant to sleep in their car in the cold with their innocent children? Wasn't he born safely out of the cold because someone was compassionate to his homeless mother?

[Festivito]

51. I can't yet tell which of us is in this hell of yours.

1. I think you assumed arrogance is the reason I gave for putting her out. It was not. I would think arrogance combined with an act of arrogant defiance. The act being the reason. And, if by Christian you mean Christ-like, I did give my Christ-based reason.

2. Myopic compassion I use here to mean nearsighted compassion, that is seeing only the woman and her children as objects of compassion. As to the Reverend needing compassion, I hope I always show compassion toward others. I don't see that the Reverend needs anything particular compassion. And, the article may not show the reason. It also does not say why the rule was placed either.

3. Well, obviously Jesus never ordered someone to stay in a car since there were none then. And, if the barn was compassionate to a pregnant girl arriving from out of town never seen before, then yes He did receive compassion, but, the notion here is a straw-man argument posed against a story involving someone known to give trouble before.

[MisterP]

58. tell us who we should have compassion for, then

[AngryOldDem]

66. Not necessarily a matter of "compassion"

Was this woman repeatedly warned about her behavior? Was the behavior deemed disruptive to shelter staff and to other guests? Were the guests complaining about the aunt and uncle? Did the guest in question take advantage of management at one time allowing the family to visit?

We don't know the answers to any of these questions. But if it was felt that this guest was being disruptive to the operation of the shelter and to the well-being of others, the minister was within his rights to ask her to go.

[Obamarama]

127. Oh. My. God.

Tell me you're not SERIOUS!? Is this your post meant to actually be taken SERIOUSLY?

Wow...didn't know KKKArl Rove posted in DU!?

[JanMichael]

61. He did NOT send her to the streets

I understand your knee jerk reaction; I was so mad that I called.

Please remember that at shelters the number 1 priority is safety for ALL of the residents.

Stephanie

btw--she was not out on the streets---she is at her families house.

[AngryOldDem]

64. FYI -- I work at a homeless shelter

And it's clear that you and others here have no idea how it works.

A situtation such as this eviction happens only AFTER the guest has been given ample warning -- as I said, the decision to evict a guest is not taken lightly, and comes after EVERY OTHER OPTION has been exhausted. We don't know how many times she was told by the management to correct her behavior. If a guest is openly being defiant of the rules, the shelter management do not have to put up with it. No matter WHAT the time of year is. Why? Because they have the safety and well-being of many others to look after. Read on.

1. Clients are very well aware of the rules when they come to stay. They understand that their compliance with the rules is expected, and if they do not comply, they may be faced with eviction. The homeless are not stupid, they are not children. They understand there are strict rules that are in place for their well-being. If they choose to not follow the rules, they live with the consequences.

2. Homeless shelters are not Holiday Inns. They are meant to accomodate homeless people who are in need of emergency assistance. It could very well have been the shelter needed the space for one or two more people. In any event, having a family visit a guest is highly irregular. There are other places outside of the shelter where they could meet.

3. The story did not say, but it could very well have been other guests were complaining about the aunt and uncle staying. The safety concerns of the nine other guests outweighs the wants and desires of the one guest.

4. Women guests especially are sensitive to being housed in close proximity to males, or when males are around their eating, sleeping, and bathing areas.

The story said the woman and kids had shelter over the holidays. She is free to look for other alternatives in the meantime, and it may even be that she has NOT BEEN permanently evicted from this shelter. Sometimes guests are asked to leave for a few days, but are welcomed back, as long as THEY AGREE TO COMPLY WITH THE RULES.

The safety and well-being of ALL guests are of paramount concern, which is why the rules are strict and must be followed. Otherwise, you risk disruption and possibly a volatile situation.

It is not being a Scrooge to expect an adult to follow the rules of the place that is giving her shelter.

[katinmn]

43. I wouldn't call the shelter director a damned heartless

Christian. I would call him a heartless ass posing as a Christian.

There is no mention that the mother did anything other than allow an entire family, not just a single man, visit her family. Big deal.

Why do I think the director of the shelter was heartless?
This pregnant woman had to pack up her kids, 5, 3 and 1 years old and go off to no where.

What did the kids do? Why punish them further?

[AngryOldDem]

65. Few points

1) She has found housing elsewhere.

2) If she broke the rules of that shelter, or if she took advantage of the management's allowance of her family to visit, that is a big deal. Shelters have strict rules for good reason -- mainly to maintain order and a safe environment. Order and safety are the PRIMARY concerns of anyone managing a shelter. The welfare of the other nine clients takes precedence.

And the minister who ran the shelter most likely informed the county children's welfare department of the situation.

[jellybelly]

32. Disgusting...

here is another story that I so far haven't seen posted yet on DU. Correct me if I'm wrong.

http://greenvilleonline.com/news/2004/12/15/2004121555058.htm

it's about an elderly woman who froze to death after the gas company cut off the heat and electricity.

[jayfish]

34. Sounds Like Murder To Me.

But the deregulated utilities will not face even a hint of scorn from our leaders. Free market be damned, people should not have to pay to heat or illuminate their homes.

Jay

[bluedeminredstate]

35. "We have to have order," said the Rev. Oliver S. Robinson

What about compassion, empathy, decency, forgiveness and all those other attributes that separate the people with real "values" from cold-hearted, sanctimoneous pricks who only see black and white, and without guilt say "screw you if you break a rule."
The article said she had the children's uncle and aunt (you know, family) in the room. So the offense that puts her on the street with THREE CHILDREN and one on the way is just having a man in her room. Mind you, she wasn't naked or "fornicating" - consumed with wanton lust and wild abandon - her children's aunt and uncle came by to see the children.
:grr:

Here's what the director who kicked her out said in the article:
"We have to have order," said the Rev. Oliver S. Robinson, director of the Tabernacle of Faith Church Outreach Center. "She herself created this situation. She is a young woman who does not want to listen to anybody. And it don't matter what time of year it is, winter time, Christmas time, cold time or whatever."

snip

"These are not the easiest people to deal with," Robinson said of shelter clients. "We have to have rules and order."

snip


"These people need tough love," Robinson said. "I don't feel comfortable with it. God don't get no pleasure punishing us. But he does it. Jesus would have done the same thing."

I'd like him to explain that last statement in a little more detail. How does he know that? Did God tell him? It's staggering that this man calls himself a Christian. I think even Jesus would get would be pissed off that this cruelty is being done in his name!

:crazy:

[acmavm]

36. Hey, so far I haven't heard ONE WORD about the three kids and what

it must be like for them to be on the street in the cold.

What the hell is that all about? For all the people who say she's a dysfunctional woman and maybe she this and maybe she that, well maybe she didn't. Maybe this guy is just a frigging idiot fundy with his mind in the gutter like to so damn many others.

The point no one is picking up on is there are THREE KIDS being punished by this 'good Christian' gentleman too.

[Scout]

139. they are NOT on the street in the cold!

And their own damn mother is the one responsible for them not being in the shelter anymore.

She knew the rules and agreed to live by them, whether they were ridiculous or not, and she broke them. She sounds pretty irresponsible to me. It is her fault that she and her children were asked to leave.

[neverforget]

38. That's exactly what Jesus would do: throw them onto the streets

in the winter for breaking a rule. :eyes: Thou shall not break rules!

[Solly Mack]

40. Oooh, he threw a fetus out in the cold...isn't that some sort of no-no?

I'd mention the 3 children he tossed out into the cold but everyone knows it's the fetus that really matters.

Shouldn't some fundies for fetus' group protest this man?


As an aside...I'd like to give that man some tough love....I really would...

[seriousstan]

41. She should have gone to the Athiest Outreach Center.

[Divernan]

46. the Reverend should have called the County child welfare office

Or don't they have those in North Carolina? In my urban area we have an "institution" if you will, which used to be an orphanage but now houses about 400 kids up to age 18. For a variety of reasons, these kids have no family members willing or able to provide a livable environment/home for them. Of course, what this young woman needs is education to make a decent living, a job to utilize that education, and to have herself sterilized. If she lived in "Old Europe", those things would have been available to her.before she got into her current, hopeless state.

[stevebreeze]

47. not to sound hard hearted but....

(A) people get tossed out of homeless shelters all the time. Like in any other environment you have to have rules. There are consequences for not following them. As others have pointed out we don't know the whole story here.
(B) It is better to toss someone BEFORE Christmas, then after. Relatives are more forgiving before Christmas, then after.

[NorthernSpy]

53. the quality of the rule itself...

... ought to be taken into account before anyone judges this woman for allegedly having broken it.

Reportedly, she received a pre-Christmas visit from two of her relatives. One of those relatives was male, and this why the woman got the boot. Never mind that the uncle was accompanied by the aunt. A stupid, stupid, stupid rule -- and truly despicable for the unnatural things that the rule-maker assumed about the persons he imposed it on. Moralists invariably have the filthiest minds.

Strong family ties should be encouraged on the whole.

[AngryOldDem]

68. No, the rule is not stupid

>>>One of those relatives was male, and this why the woman got the boot. Never mind that the uncle was accompanied by the aunt. A stupid, stupid, stupid rule -- and truly despicable for the unnatural things that the rule-maker assumed about the persons he imposed it on.>>>

There are some women who have been abused, physically or otherwise, by men, who have a deep psychological problem about being around men, especially in sleeping quarters, etc. They need to feel safe in the shelter, and guests' well-being takes precedence over visitors, or the desires of a single guest.

As a rule, it is not good to have men around women in such a situation, for many reasons. Things could be alleged, etc., and things CAN happen. It not a prude's mind at work; it is just the prudent thing to do.

>>Strong family ties should be encouraged on the whole.>>

Yes, they should, but not within the proximity of other shelter guests. Perhaps the Rev should consider designating a gathering room, or someplace else where people can visit that isn't near sleeping quarters. But again, a homeless shelter is not a community center or hotel. There are better places families can meet.

[NorthernSpy]

124. oooh -- beware the dangerous classes!

There are some women who have been abused, physically or otherwise, by men, who have a deep psychological problem about being around men, especially in sleeping quarters, etc. They need to feel safe in the shelter, and guests' well-being takes precedence over visitors, or the desires of a single guest.

As a rule, it is not good to have men around women in such a situation, for many reasons. Things could be alleged, etc., and things CAN happen. It not a prude's mind at work; it is just the prudent thing to do.

Baloney. This was not a battered women's shelter. If the presence of men were such a turrible, turrible problem, then what the hell is Reverend Dumbfuck doing on the premises?

You -- and whoever imposed the rule -- are pathologizing and slandering the poor in order to manage them like a herd of cows. No one makes such outrageous assumptions about affluent people as a class, and they oughtn't to make them about the impecunious, either.

The woman paid her 50 bucks a month. She was, quite arguably, a renter. Really, she needs a lawyer.

[AngryOldDem]

67. That is SO true

<<<Relatives are more forgiving before Christmas, then after.>>

Makes you wonder where they are the rest of the year.

[benburch]

48. Self-deleted

[benburch]

49. Self-deleted

[genieroze]

54. Jesus would have done the same thing?

Happy Holidays you sick f**k.

[wicket]

56. I cannot BELIEVE he said Jesus would have done the same thing

Who the FUCK does this guy think he is???? His a Rev. and it doesn't even sound like he's ever read Jesus' words.

[iamjoy]

71. Do We Know Enough To Judge?

Either the shelter or the woman?

What if the woman had violated rules before and been warned? What if the policy when she moved in was clear, no male visitors in the room under any circumstance?

Rev Robinson is running a homeless shelter, it is hard to think of him as heartless. And somehow, the notion that religious intolerance or hypocrisy may have been a part of it doesn't seem to fit the situation.

On the other hand, the Reverand was wrong to say Jesus would have done the same thing, and seems to be acting very self-righteous about the whole thing. Was there a better way to handle the situation? It doesn't seem as if this woman was flagrantly violating the rules or behaving in a manner that showed no consideration for others, couldn't he have given her another chance?

[AngryOldDem]

75. His comments were tactless,, but...

>>>On the other hand, the Reverand was wrong to say Jesus would have done the same thing, and seems to be acting very self-righteous about the whole thing. Was there a better way to handle the situation? It doesn't seem as if this woman was flagrantly violating the rules or behaving in a manner that showed no consideration for others, couldn't he have given her another chance?>>>

Maybe he did give her another chance. Maybe many such chances. We don't know, and this just adds more questions to an already incomplete picture. Too many people are too willing to jump his case, when in fact he may have had good reason to do what he did.

I'm not taking a side one way or another, but I am willing to give the reverend the benefit of the doubt, until it's proven otherwise.

[iamjoy]

78. I Mostly Agree With You

I mean, from a logical standpoint, it seems like the man may have been right.

But my heart just goes out to the woman - Would the reverend have allowed her to stay if she didn't have relatives to take her and the children in?

Maybe those of us sitting in our nice, comfortable homes who are not actively involved in taking care of the homeless have any call to judge this man. Having read your other posts, AngryOldDem, it sounds like you have first hand knowledge, so perhaps you have a better (or at least more complete) perspective.

We Liberals are often called intolerant by the Conservatives, especially toward religion. I hate to think it is true, but perhaps sometimes our fear or anger gets the best of us and we give that impression.

[AngryOldDem]

92. I wish I knew more about this particular case

I know, though, that it is hard when a guest is asked to go. But sometimes, the guest leaves shelter staff no other option. And -- at least where I work -- they are given many chances to get their acts together before the final step is taken.

Most of the homeless, unless they are severely mentally ill, are a very resourceful lot. Most of them do have other options when they can't, for whatever reason, go to the shelter. Some, too, have families in the area. The reasons the families don't often help are far too many and complex to get into. But it looks like this woman's relatives are stepping up here.

It does indeed sound heartless when a homeless person is tossed out of a place that is supposedly there to help him or her. However, we are talking about (for the most part) a very unstable part of society -- members who have different abilities, backgrounds, aptitudes, what-have-you -- which, when mixed, could create a very volatile situation. A tightly regulated atmosphere is imperative in a homeless shelter, which is why I really can't come down too hard on the minister without knowing more about what exactly happened.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

74. "Are there no prisons?"

"At this festive season of the year, Mr. Scrooge," said the gentleman, taking up a pen, "it is more than usually desirable that we should suffer some slight provision for the poor and the destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir."

"Are there no prisons?" asked Scrooge.

"Plenty of prisons," said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.

"And the union workhouses?" demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?"

"They are, still," returned the gentleman, "I wish I could say they were not."

"The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour then?" said Scrooge.

"Both very busy, sir."

"Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course," said Scrooge.

[saigon68]

88. Very insightful Congratulations

SAIGON AWARD FOR POST OF THE DAY

DECEMBER 24, 2004 ANNO DOMINI

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

117. I'm honored

What do I win?

:evilgrin:

(Sorry, I couldn't resist. Now I suppose you have to take it back...)

[saigon68]

120. The admiration of the Blog trouble makers-- Its priceless.

Seriously we have some real talent for critical thinking and sarcasm here.

And my personal thanks for sharing your Wit and Wisdom !!!!

[Tsiyu]

113. Ah, Number Six

Great Literature illuminates for generations......

I refuse to believe that an aunt and uncle visiting a room in a shelter would traumatize others significantly. These guests have to encounter men every day on the street.

Of course at the holidays, there should be places for families to meet. What is so heartless about those of you who find that a strange activity days before Christmas? When all the facts are in, we'll find the reason, but still very little heart here....

[pinniped]

82. There's a new commercial out and the message is that Jesus never...

turns anyone away.

[xchrom]

86. there goes those poor folk again

giving decent folk trouble and not wanting to obey the rules.
those poor folk get all the damn breaks.
if only she were more humble, grateful and pliant --
you know -- less human.

[indepat]

87. Break our silly rules and you and yours will be given what's tantamount

to a death sentence.

[AngryOldDem]

100. Not likely

This woman went with family after she left the shelter.

As for the "silly rules" -- when you are dealing with a mix of population such as what frequents homeless shelters -- perhaps the most disparate cross-section of society you could ever want to find in one place at one time -- you need "silly rules" to prevent all hell from breaking loose. And really, they are very simple rules, very easy to follow, and most guests at shelters do abide by them.

Also, as I've said, it could be the case too that she will be allowed back into the shelter after a few days. She knew the rule, she openly defied it. Shelters cannot put up with that behavior for very long or else they risk all sorts of problems with other guests and staff. At all times the safety and welfare of ALL who are at the shelter takes precedence.

[Neshanic]

93. Extreme Jesus has no problem with "order".

Well Reverend....order you got. Just let Jesus know you turned someone away in the cold and dark. There should be a story about that. Why is there not a story about a pregnant woman not getting a room at the inn? You would think that would be a great story about that...it would be timeless.

[The Flaming Red Head]

94. That's why faith based social services are a bad idea

I know quite a few horror stories. The worst part is that they tend to favor the men over the women in abusive situations.

The churches can be very mean to women and children and have no problem turning away destitute single parent families.

[AngryOldDem]

97. Please cite your statistics on this

When it comes to dealing with the poor on a day-to-day basis, I'd take a church-based group over government bureaucracy any day.

[The Flaming Red Head]

106. My friends and I have lived it. I don't have to cite statistics. nt

[LisaL]

95. I feel sorry for her children, but for the life of me, why

does a woman with no means of support has 4 children by the time she is 21 years old? How do you feel sorry for such a woman? I sure can't.

[The Flaming Red Head]

96. Wait until they reverse Roe. It's going to get worse.

[murray hill farm]

101. Compassion vs enabeling self destructive behavior?

she knew the rules..she chose to break them..and chose to flaunt it. She had a family who took her in..probably because it was xmas..u can bet that this family has had it with her too...and have chosen not to enable her long term destructive behavior..for not just herself, but her children. There is a difference between helping someone...and helping someone to continue to self destruct.

[The Flaming Red Head]

107. What does that have to do with making BC and abortion, an option?

The religious right is going to make situations like this even worse very soon.

[murray hill farm]

111. responded in wrong place..sorry!

I totally agree with you...will just make it much worse. And it is the kids that suffer. In this case, this woman did not opt for abortion, anyway...it seems!! I hope this situation causes enough of an outcry so that, at the least, social services will look into finding for these kids in this situation..a safer environment than that which their mother provides for them.

[against all enemies]

99. The south sucks.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

102. As a Southern Gentleman, I have to wonder what the best way to

say FUCK YOU is.

[against all enemies]

103. You are no gentleman, "Fuck You , Sir", would be acceptable.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

104. LOL... You are correct. Fuck you, sir.

[against all enemies]

109. Thank You, Have a very Merry Christmas, and a Happy New Year!!

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

110. You too! I wish the best for you and yours.

(We'll get back to it on the 26th)

:toast:

[rocktivity]

105. Real "tough love" would be putting her kids in foster care

and her into a job training program until she got herself together. But then they'd be out that $50 a month donation.

I don't see how cutting off contact between the children and the rest of their family helps. There's no reason to assume that every visitor to the shelter is planning to do a home invasion robbery. Even hospitals and prisions have visiting hours, mainly because they're good for the detainees' morale.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Tsiyu]

112. I'm just proud he didn't cut the fetus out of her first

And to those whining that DU "is intolerant" toward Christians:


I follow Christ's teachings.

Mnay here do.

When we say "Christian" in a pejorative way, we are referring to Christians like "Brother Oliver" here, who doesn't have a compassionate molecule in his soul.

We might say 'Christian INO' ( In Name Only) or 'fundy' ( which goes to their interpretation of Scripture but is still a useful moniker), or 'Right Wing Christian.' We will usually try to qualify.


In all my travels through DU, I have met only one or two who refuse to believe there are many good Christians. No one needs to prove or disprove anyone else's entire faith here on the forums.

We MUST call out those who claim to live by those faiths yet who show no signs of understanding what those faiths are all about.

True Democrats understand the difference.


"I desire mercy, not sacrifice." God

[SouthernDem2004]

115. What are you doing to help?????

I see so many so quick to jump on religious people that at least try and help people. Take a look in the mirror, what are you doing to help the homeless or anyone else for that matter???????

[Divine Discontent]

125. very true.

what are each of us doing to help? I think each of us making some sort of time effort, or cash effort, to help homeless would a great holiday gift to those in need (which could be one of us very easily one day in Bush's Merikkka)

God bless them, they're getting more prayers now than they could have imagined due to that twisted man's horrible thought process.

All Christians are created equally, some just drink kool-aid and ruin it for the rest of us.

[jayfish]

128. Pardon Me, but...

what does what I'm doing to help anyone have to do with some control freak tossing five(for the pro-lifers out there)people out on the street. Now, the only reason religion was brought into this discussion is the fact that the good Reverend decided to use it as justification for his actions.

"I don't feel comfortable with it. God don't get no pleasure punishing us. But he does it. Jesus would have done the same thing."

What a bunch of bull-shit!

Jay

[Tsiyu]

132. Personally? What am I doing?

Well, the best I can do. I made around $3000 this year. My kids added to that about the same each. Right now, I have a kid living with me who has no parents. They're deceased.

I'm trying to give him a life, teach him some stuff. I've helped him get his first two jobs. He was just laid off, but I'll feed him and love him and keep him going til he gets the next one.

I will be donating some stuff to the local family help center next week, as I have before ( as well as donating time and music for benefit and researching grants....)

Everyone should do what they can. But that doesn't mean the helpers are better than the helped.

Sometimes the former learn from the latter.

[The Flaming Red Head]

138. And sometimes the helpers live off of the funds more than the helped

and don't acknowledge it.

A lot people who actually live off of charity and welfare are the ones doing the distributing and they don’t even know it.

They tried to cut my federal grant to attend nursing school and the little girl at the office was so smug and said "Well, all you want this grant money for is to live off of it" and I told her "Well you're living off of it too" and she said her salary was not paid by federal money and I told her, "Yes it is" and I asked her if she had been following C-Span and what was going on at the time in the US House and she said, "Uggh we have nothing to do with that" And I told her, "You need to follow it, because your job is about to be gone because of it. She didn't believe me.

I called her supervisor, and verified that I was a student in good standing and continued to receive my grant until I graduated from Nursing school and found employment. About a year later the grant office called me from a bigger (different) city to see how I was doing and I asked what had happened to the local employees in my town and was told that they had been phased out due to cutbacks at the federal level.

This rant isn’t directed against you; what you said about the helpers not being one bit better than the helped made me think about this anecdote in my own life.

[Obamarama]

126. This does not amaze me.....

Given the locale, I mean.

[imabadman]

134. Wow!

That is pretty bad!