Defense chief dismisses ‘the naysayers and the doubters’

[lebkuchen]

“There’s no doubt in my mind, this is achievable,” he told troops in Mosul just three days after the devastating attack on a U.S. military dining hall here.

“When it looks bleak, when one worries about how it’s going to come out, when one reads and hears the naysayers and the doubters who say it can’t be done, and that we’re in a quagmire here,” one should recall that there have been such doubters “throughout every conflict in the history of the world,” he told about 200 soldiers of the 1st Brigade of the 25th Infantry Division at their commander’s headquarters.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6751599/

The "naysayers and doubters" are military members of Congress and US retired military war-savvy generals on down. It's beyond troubling when a CEO by trade continues, in the face of public criticism, to dismiss the advice of America's best military minds because he feels he knows best in spite of mounting evidence to the contrary.

Rumsfeld must resign or be fired!

[MercutioATC]

1. He's right.

Increasing attacks just mean we're closer to success and the "insurgents" are getting desperate, remember?


:crazy:

[mediaman007]

30. Pray that Rummy stays,

because if he leaves a new DoD will get at least a 6 month honeymoon, probably longer. With Rummy in place the criticism can be focussed and to the point.

The more stupid stuff he does and the more stupid stuff he says may get us out of there much quicker. Or, it may reach out and grab the Bush*, too.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. Rumsfeld is the poster child for the Bush Administration

he embodies the arrogance, stupidity, and greed of them all. His distain for the troops-and for the Truth-is matched and exceeded only by the Chimp himself.

[htuttle]

3. He sounds like he's channeling McNamara again

[Jacobin]

13. Yep. Old Robert McNamara Clone

They must be digging up sound bites from the 60's and 70's...oh so useful right now.

[Malva Zebrina]

4. just saw the pic on the Yahoo page

and was repulsed by it. Here is a wounded warrior lying in bed, with this despicable prick leaning over him all concerned and comforting.

My first thought was that the propaganda team is working overtime and my second thought was to spit at the screen right into Rumsfeld's face.

[Zeke]

16. Damn straight...

You nailed it.

The photo portrays Dumbsfeld as Uncle Rummy.

Total propoganda and it's all for enhancing his public image while soldiers still have no armor and are getting killed more and more.

[lebkuchen]

20. The military has expressed doubt about Bush et al for the last four years

in Stars and Stripes, which is a much less daunting forum than face-to-face with Rumsfeld & the media's cameras rolling. Rumsfeld can once again attempt to use the media and the military to his advantage, but these letters weren't written for propaganda purposes; they come from the heart.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2814737

[cliss]

31. Isn't it interesting, that in spite of

all the "naysayers", meaning probably the vast majority of the military, the CIA and other intelligence gathering agencies, THE WORLD, they still went ahead damn the torpedoes and did it.

Such renegades. And of course, if you analyze it, this means that they never believed they would need support of any kind. If you know well ahead of time that very few people are supporting your plan and you go ahead and do it anyway, it sorta assumes that you don't need their support, since you defied them.

I guess an analogy would be if I wanted to cut down a field. The neighbor emphatically begs me not to do it. The little critters like it in there. It supports a vast animal habitat. The entire town urges me not to do it. I mow it down anyway.

Surely, I can't expect the neighbor to HELP ME CUT IT? Can I? This is the strange mixed message we get from the BushCo. They vacillate between the go-it-alone strategy, then they swing back to the "help us please". Together we can clear this field. It's so psychotic.

This tells me that they probably assumed that money would take care of it. No cooperation was ever needed. They are probably huge loners.

[lebkuchen]

34. "money would take care of it"

Your comment parallels my Vietnam vet friend's comment, made after we had polished off a bottle of Christmas champagne half an hour ago,

...the problem with the Bush administration is that they are so far removed from "the soil" i.e. the workers' labor chain, that they don't know what's really going on. They can't smell "the soil," or feel its needs. All this administration cares about is profits. The military is just a means to a profitable end for the Bushies, which is the Bush administration's great weakness.

My friend's father had worked in a cotton mill for 30 years and came away with only Social Security. Now, even that is in jeopardy as a result of our WH becoming so distanced from "the soil."

The US screams for another Eleanor Roosevelt in a leadership position.

[NYC]

5. He said that the "naysayers" had predicted a quagmire in

Afghanistan, and see how nicely that turned out.

Not his exact words, but very close.

[LynnTheDem]

10. RUMSFELD was the #1 NAYSAYER to the invasion of Afghanistan

No lie too big or too small for the bushCartel.

[NYC]

14. Did he predict Afghanistan would be a quagmire?

I can't remember anymore.

[LynnTheDem]

18. CHENEY predicted IRAQ would be a quagmire.

As did poppa bush, Powell, etc. That was their reason not to invade & occupy Iraq back in 1991.

Rightwingnuts sure do FLIP-FLOP.

Rumsfailed just wanted to get straight on with his invasion of Iraq, IIRC; he didn't want to waste time on "no good targets in Afghanistan".

[NYC]

24. Cheney said "weeks not months"

on Sunday morning television re Iraq War 2.

Perhaps flip-flop is too mild a word.

[BikeWriter]

36. Nearly everyone predicted Iraq would be a quagmire! Here's some quotes.

"Trying to eliminate Saddam...would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible.... We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq.... There was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land."
George Herbert Walker Bush,in his memoir, "A World Transformed"


http://www.thenation.com/edcut/index.mhtml?bid=7&pid=1055
We know there are rifts inside the Bush Administration, but what about the growing rift between Presidents 41 and 43? Even before the Iraq war, the schism between father and son wasn't hard to conceal. The former President (via associates like Brent Scowcroft) clearly disapproved of W's repudiation of traditional conservative internationalism in favor of adventurist neo-con extremism. (Remember Scowcroft's oped of August 2002 in which he argued that preemptive war against Iraq was an unwarranted and divisive distraction from the fight against global terrorism?)


"I think that the proposition of going to Baghdad is also fallacious. I think if we were going to remove Saddam Hussein we would have had to go all the way to Baghdad, we would have to commit a lot of force… And once we'd done that and we'd gotten rid of Saddam Hussein and his government, then we'd have had to put another government in its place… it would have been a mistake for us to get bogged down in the quagmire inside Iraq."
Cheney speech at the Soref Symposium, April 29, 1991.


"We should not march into Baghdad. To occupy Iraq would instantly shatter our coalition, turning the whole Arab world against us, and make a broken tyrant into a latter-day Arab hero...assigning young soldiers to a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning them to fight in what would be an unwinnable urban guerrilla war. It could only plunge that part of the world into even greater instability."
George H.W. Bush, in his book "A World Transformed."

A transcript of the 1992 appearance was tracked down by P-I columnist Joel Connelly, as reported in today's In the Northwest column.
"And the question in my mind is how many additional American casualties is Saddam worth?" Cheney said then in response to a question.
"And the answer is not very damned many. So I think we got it right, both when we decided to expel him from Kuwait, but also when the president made the decision that we'd achieved our objectives and we were not going to go get bogged down in the problems of trying to take over and govern Iraq."
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/192908_cheney29.html


We know the answer; for in 1992 the general himself offered us an example of the "logical process" he had in mind, analyzing why President George H. W. Bush did not order our forces to take Baghdad in 1991:
"We must assume that the political objective of such an order would have been capturing Saddam Hussein," he wrote. "What purpose would it have served? And would serving that purpose have been worth the many more casualties that would have occurred? Would it have been worth the inevitable follow-up: major occupation forces in Iraq for years to come and a very expensive and complex American proconsulship in Baghdad? Fortunately for America, reasonable people at the time thought not."
General Colin Powell
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/21/opinion/21danner.html?pagewanted=2&oref=regi

[tk2kewl]

6. Faith-Based Defense Policy

the only way to go.

Ya gotta believe baby.

:freak:

[Zeke]

17. Perfect !!!

Faith based defense?

You gotta believe?

That's laughs!

Well done!!! Damn funny.

[ernstbass]

7. Liar liar pants on fire

[LynnTheDem]

8. "naysayers" = US military brass & vets..."yaysayers" = AWOLS and Defers.

Hmmm who to believe...

Experts and veterans and top US military brass who have actually been to war and who have been DEAD RIGHT about every single thing they've said on Iraq to date...

Or AWOLs and multiple-deferments who raised twins and had other things to be doing, who have NEVER seen combat, and who have been DEAD WRONG on every single thing they've said & done to date on Iraq.

Gee. Tough one. :eyes:

[lebkuchen]

11. they ignored the advice of generals, such as four-star General Shinseki

Chief of Staff of the Army, who answered honestly when Congress asked him how many soldiers might be needed to stabilize Iraq--300,000. The Bush administration turned on him, attacking his judgment and character. Rumsfeld forced him into early retirement and was noticeably absent at the ceremony.

Conversely,

Asked if Americans are prepared for a "long, costly and bloody battle," Vice President Cheney (former Secretary of Defense) replied: "Well, I don't think it's likely to unfold that way...The read we get on the people of Iraq is there is no question but what they want to the get rid of Saddam Hussein, and they will welcome as liberators the United States when we come to do that."

Vice President Cheney predicted Hussein's troops would "step aside" and that the conflict would be "weeks rather than months," a phrase repeated by other top officials.

http://www.diyprojects.info/bb/sutra47587.html

It's not as though the "naysayers and doubters" are skidrow junkies down on their luck. For that, one must look no further than 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

[jmcgowanjm]

15. Get 'em, LynnTheDem n/t

I'm looking forward to the pics coming out
of Rummy, getting as close as he can to
Fallujah.

IRR122304

Abu As‘ad ad-Dulaymi told Mafkarat al-Islam that in the last
two days the Resistance had done twice what any other
army would do to its enemy. In answer to a question
about rumors that the Resistance might pull out of al-Fallujah
in
order to let the refugee families back in, Abu As‘ad replied
that the Resistance had begun the battle in the blessed month
of Ramadan and that there is no report that the
Prophet Muhammad ever lost a battle in Ramadan, adding,
“we want to end it when God wishes it to end. This is all we
will say on the matter.”

"The insurgents have good sources in the Iraqi
interim government and sometimes in local U.S. and
coalition military commands," according to Anthony
Cordesman, a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic
& International Studies and a former Pentagon official, who
this week published a study titled "Strengthening Iraqi
Military and Security Forces."

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

9. Such a lightweight.

Not even close to the roccoco glories of Spiro Agnew's "nattering nabobs of negativism". Now there was a line of bullshit! ;-)

[Thor_MN]

12. Even the neocons are starting to distance themself from Rumdum

BTW, Bill Krystol, you POS, this is YOUR f'ing war!!! You don't get to skate saying "Rummy dropped the ball."

I just watched a teenager, a GD CHILD selling his autographed NFL jersey via E-Bay to buy himself body armor as he is shipping to Iraq in a few months. His rational is that if he equipped himself, someone else may get armor that they would otherwise not recieve. That kid has some values - the F'ing * administration has none.

Today, I detest anyone who voted for *, and I'm about to head to my freeper brother-in-law's house. I think I'm going to have to open the wine the second I hit the driveway and knock back half a bottle before I get to the door in order to make it through this evening.

[Robbien]

19. What else is this guy supposed to say? The military is stuck there.

They must be pretty discouraged.

[TahitiNut]

21. It's them same ol' "nattering nabobs of negativism" huh, Spiro?

Poppy Puke usta spray his spittle at the "naysayers" every week. His entire reign was spent finding more and more people he despised ... all American citizens who dissented. These people have been in positions of power and privilege for so long they're incapable of dealing with dissent. They demand total subservience in their authoritarian subcultures. They're worse than Saddam in quashing any kind of disagreement or opposition.

[Palacsinta]

22. He meant....."neigh-sayers"

'cause he's such a horse's ass.

[0007]

23. Man this guy has got me all fired up and now if he'd only lead

us to those WMD that he said he knew where they were hidden, I'd be convinced and I'd remove my naysayer sign, that sez "Fuck you Mr. Rumsfeld" you are a goddamn war criminal, nothing more and nothing less. You belong in The Hague.

How can the troops have any repect for this man? Or Colin Powell or junior?

[against all enemies]

25. What's "achievable" Donald? The mission has never been defined.

Finding weapons of mass destruction?
Pay back for 9/11?
Ending Saddam's government?
Peace to Iraq?
Democracy for ALL Iraqis?
Sorry Donald you don't cut it. But Bush will never get rid of him, it would be admitting a mistake. And Jesus and George W. Bush never make mistakes.

[yojon]

26. What an anal extrusion that guy is....

:hurts:

[oasis]

27. Rummy will resign in disgrace. (n/t)

[lebkuchen]

35. An exploding fuel truck full of explosives doesn't inspire confidence

in the DoD's ability to maintain security in Iraq, you've got to admit.

What will we remember most? Rummy's surprise visit or that?

[jmcgowanjm]

39. Rumsfeld’s helicopter flees Mosul base 15 minutes after arriving amidst wi

IRR 122404

Iraqi Resistance forces mounted a fierce rocket attack on
Mosul Airport at 3pm Friday. Eyewitnesses told Mafkarat al-
Islam that the missile attack was carried out at the moment
that US Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld arrived at
the airport. All the people of Mosul felt that some personage
of high rank would be visiting the airport since they had
been observing large numbers of US warplanes circling
the airbase.

The US defense secretary landed in a helicopter at the
base, whereupon Resistance fighters unleashed a barrage
of 83 rockets of various types at the US airfield. The
Mafkarat al-Islam correspondent reported that 15 minutes
after its arrival and in the midst of the rocket assault, the
same helicopter lifted off again. The correspondent was
unsure as to whether Rumsfeld was in the helicopter when
it took off that time or not, but the helicopter left under heavy
US air escort.

[Flagg]

28. ” one should recall that there have been such doubters “throughout every c

onflict in the history of the world,”



Like Vietnam for instance.

[VegasWolf]

29. "Naysayer's" sounds like a good christian bible thingy word. n/t

[Kablooie]

32. When we pull out the liberal media and Democrats will be blamed

Because we spread disenheartening propaganda that the war wasn't going well and broke the spirit of the American people. If only we would support Herr Furor (sic) Bush, America would have been gloriously successful.

[liberal N proud]

33. They will never fire rummy, he is part of the band of brothers that

run shrub.
Between rummy, dickless cheney and wolfowitz Oh and don't forget KKKarl, bush makes absolutly no decisions on his own. Not even when to shit.
There is now way that rummy will ever give up the post he hold.
He knows that, therefore, he can say and do anything he wants especially now the shrub never needs to worry about another election.

[Pithy Cherub]

37. After being rightfully criticized, Rummy decides to name call!

How typical for a nay saying jerk who is doing a professionally horrible job.

[truth2power]

38. Strap on some ammo, Rummo...

and get over there and show us how it's done.

Rummy is a POS. He should quit and get a job as a giant spider in one of those low-budget horror flicks! :mad:

[jmcgowanjm]

40. "Near Fallujah", Hell, Baghdad's near Fallujah-IRR122404

Any pics of Rummy outside near Fallujah?
It's not that I don't... It's just that I don't
believe you.

If these Resistance Reports are true,
I can't post it all here, Local USCommanders are starting to
cut deals w/ the Resistance.

Either the USTroops ignore their gungho commanders
or they are going to get hurt.

Meanwhile, 9am Friday was zero-hour for Iraqi
Resistance attacks on the five main bridges of the city that
have been closed by US occupation authorities for seven
straight days. Witnesses reported that the Resistance
attacks struck the command posts on three of the
bridges, setting a tank ablaze and destroying four Humvees
on Baghdad Bridge, destroying a tank and a Humvee
on az-Zaytun Bridge. Then all the bridge were opened. Each
of the bridges had had four US tanks and four
Humvees stationed on them.

Under these Resistance attacks on the ground and by
missiles from the air, US forces retired to outside the city,
iving the Resistance control of about 60 percent of the city
of Mosul – Iraq’s third largest city – just days after a
martyrdom attacker killed some 160 Americans when he drove
a 12-ton Mercedes truck into the US mess hall on the local
base, and just hours after Donald Rumsfeld fled the city
amidst a rocket
barrage.

The Mafkarat al-Islam correspondent reported that
the Resistance had advised the local puppet police
and “national guards” not to pick fights with the Resistance or
to challenge them in areas under Resistance control.
The puppet police forces responded to this advice by pulling
out of those areas at 4pm
Friday.

[Redstone]

41. Now he's not so sure...

According to the DoD website, RumDumb further pontificated:

...And any attempted intimidation of law-abiding Iraqis, Rumsfeld pointed out, "is a factor that has to be considered in watching how this thing tips."...

Hold on just a cotton-pickin' minute, here. "How this thing tips?" And you've been telling all along about how you had a plan????

Well, I guess that "watching," while our soldiers and Iraqi civilians continue to be slaughtered, to see "how things tip," sure, I guess that could be defined as a plan, kinda sorta, in a way, actually....

Fuck you and the horse's ass you rode in on, Rumplefeldskin, you lying son of a sack of shit.

Redstone

[indepat]

42. Can't speak to every conflict in history, but this conflict is a first for

this young nation for while admittedly it has often fought around the globe in the post-WWII era to stem the spread of godless Communism, it heretofore has never invaded another nation on another continent, seemingly in the eyes of a good part of the world, for the purpose of securing that nation's natural resources and providing a base from which to possibly stage other ventures. When survival is at stake, the doubters are likely very few in number whereas....