Chinese police break up Christmas Mass, arrest priest

[InvisibleBallots]

BEIJING A human rights center says armed police broke up Christmas Mass at an underground Catholic church in eastern China, arresting the priest, demolishing a makeshift pulpit and scattering two thousand worshippers.

The church, in a family courtyard, had previously been torn down by police four years ago, but parishioners had begun rebuilding it in defiance of Chinese law.

The Hong Kong-based Information Center for Human Rights and Democracy says police with guns came and tore down the stage, seats and entrance gate that the group had erected for the Christmas eve service.

China only allows religious activity in government-controlled churches, temples and mosques, but millions belong to unauthorized "house churches."

http://www.kristv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2734188

[InvisibleBallots]

1. anyone seen Fulan Gong lately

In New York, San Francisco, Amsterdam and Brussels lately I've seen Falun Gong people passing out literature about their persecution under the Chinese regime.

[Kellanved]

3. they're all over Berlin

Especially active in the Universities (we have quite a lot Chinese Students).

[da_chimperor]

60. In Köln as well

I was there well over a year ago and they were manning a display/ information desk in front of the Dom. I went back only a few months ago and the same display was still there. That's some determination for you.

[ckramer]

7. Fulan Gong has become tools of CIA I suspect

[InvisibleBallots]

16. their literature is top-notch

Don't get me wrong - Fulan Gong is fine my me - but as far as political propaganda goes, theirs was really top notch. It wouldn't surprise me if some groups are being used as a front here in the US to recruit assets among Chinese students for example.

I still think I should try those exercises, or Tai Chi at least!

[ckramer]

18. Tai Chi is not Fulan Gong

Oh yes, top notch political propaganda...that needs lots of money...you just wonder where do these "monks" get their money from.

But be careful before trying these excercises. I heard that FulanGong is some kind of cult. Once you practice it, you are hooked like you are on drugs; you will lose control of yourself and sell your body and soul like a whore.

[JohnLocke]

26. Chinese propaganda (nt)

[InvisibleBallots]

30. their exercises are similar

"Once you practice it, you are hooked like you are on drugs; you will lose control of yourself and sell your body and soul like a whore."

Lol! funny :)

[0007]

33. LOL!! I hope your not serious!

[ckramer]

35. Fulan Gone = China's Heaven's Gate, IMO

Except that they don't ask you go to heaven with them, they ask you be a tool of your master.

I just feel sorry for those people who fall victim to cults.

[NMDemDist2]

2. ahhh, heck they're just Catholics

and we Merikans just LOVE those WalMart low prices /sarcasm off

[DemBones DemBones]

11. Too true. People at DU think nothing of

discrimination against Catholics, don't care when Catholic churches are vandalized, etc.

[NMDemDist2]

14. did you miss the sarcasm??? it was a statement on the Freeps supporting

China for WalMart low prices

get a grip man!

[Solon]

15. You paint with too big a brush...

and to be honest, you have too big a chip on your shoulder that is frankly, annoying. I was born and raised Catholic, my mother is still a Catholic in her heart, yet SHE HATES the Church more than anything I know of. She despises the Pope and his stance on choice, as well as all the other hypocritical shit that comes out of his mouth. Yet she has never ONCE talked about Catholics in general. We both think what happened in China is wrong and immoral, everyone has the right to freedom of religion, but by all that is holy, this does not mean that the CHURCH ITSELF is sacrosanct AT ALL.

The Catholic Church and its heirarchy is not above reproach, and honestly, the laity has almost no control over them. I have not once on this board heard of anyone saying that ALL Catholics are child molesters, or any other generalization of that sort. To say that critizising the Church is tantamount to critisizing all Catholics, or to be an anti-Catholic bigot, I guess that means we are all Anti-American bigots for critisizing Georgie boy. Its ridiculious and overblown.

[InvisibleBallots]

31. Interesting post, Solon

Two points - You're a neo-pagan? And you're accusing Catholics of having a chip on their shoulder?

Second, you're a neo-pagan, but from a Catholic family? Interesting.

Three, three! points -

"To say that critizising the Church is tantamount to critisizing all Catholics, or to be an anti-Catholic bigot, I guess that means we are all Anti-American bigots for critisizing Georgie boy. Its ridiculious and overblown."

I remember a similar thread about Chinese persecution of Christians - we actually had a few posters saying things like "good, serves them right for what they did 500 years ago."

I'm not religious, but you'd have to be blind to not see some of the anti-Christian bigotry here - I suspect many are freeper trolls, engaging in their culture war - with the help of some of our homegrown bigots.

[Solon]

37. Actually I did not accuse ALL Catholics of having a chip on their shoulder

Second, my being Neo-Pagan has little to nothing to do with it, as far as that is concerned. I live in an area that is mostly Catholic all my life, and have never seen one Catholic in the area that is defensive about their religion because of some stupid shit the church itself does. Third, I did not say that it never happens, especially with disruptors, or Jack Chick followers, people of that ilk, I said it is overblown, because of misperceptions and overblown egos. If I say that the Pope is an asshat who is full of hot air, does that mean I hate my mom, or Catholics in general?

[InvisibleBallots]

38. er, Jack Chick?

I suspect there are no Jack Chick believers who know how to post on the internet.

"If I say that the Pope is an asshat who is full of hot air, does that mean I hate my mom, or Catholics in general?"

If I say all the Pagan's I've met are ex-Catholics and Christians who hate their parents, does that make me hate Pagans in general?

[The Magistrate]

40. Unfortunately, Sir

Your counter-example is not parallel, and so the demonstration falls flat.

The Pope is an individual, and to criticize the Pope is to criticize an individual, and nothing more.

Your hypothetical statement following generalizes rashly from a limited sample, and seems at the least to be laying the ground-work for a general statement about a group of people, a group which, further, is one you tend to be in dispute with on a matter of some importance to you....

[InvisibleBallots]

41. Don't call me "sir", I work for a living

The Pope is an individual, as are the Pagans I mentioned. No one is doing anything other than criticizing individuals.

[The Magistrate]

44. Unfortunately, Sir

One statement confines itself to an individual, the other tends to lump individuals into a group and promote generalization....

[InvisibleBallots]

47. I find the the title "sir" to be offensive, please refrain from addressing

me this way, it's rude.

"One statement confines itself to an individual, the other tends to lump individuals into a group and promote generalization..."

My statements have tendencies? My statement doesn't "tend" to do anything, that's just silly.

[The Magistrate]

48. Cheer Up, Fellow

Things really can get much worse....

There are persons in this world determined to find occassions for offense to themselves in the world around them, and in my experience, little point is served by attempting to placate them, as they will simply move on to find new means of gratifying their desire to experience the thrill of taking affront from something another meant no harm or insult by, and so it will remain, Sir, my general practice to act as seems best to me, and in accordance with my own sensibilities, without too much concern for what others may think of me.

[InvisibleBallots]

49. fellow, that's more like it

"There are persons in this world determined to find occassions for offense to themselves in the world around them"

I could not agree more!

[Solon]

45. Its the implication of the statement you made...

I would critisize a single man, a prominent figure no less, on what he does and say. Yet your statement was generalized enough to imply that all Pagans are that way, plus you made implications based on assumptions, unless they actually said it like you mean it.

[InvisibleBallots]

46. I criticized a group of individuals

of which I have direct experience. You criticized an individual, one that I suppose you have never met.

Would your statements about the Pope also apply to many of the bishops around the Pope as well?

"yet your statement was generalized enough to imply that all Pagans are that way"

No, it was not.

[Solon]

56. Still weak in argument...

The Pope does say some things that are stupid, I do not have to meet him to know that, he publishes it or broadcasts it himself. His opinion and influence on things such as birth control and abortion are atrocious, so me and many others can rightly call him an asshat. :)

Also, you seem to assume a state of mind about the pagans you met "they hate their parents." yet did not qualify that you actually heard it from them or not, so I assumed it was a generalization of the ones you met, was it or was it not?

[InvisibleBallots]

57. Here's something I find interesting

I don't believe I have ever read of a Christian criticizing Pagans, pagan beliefs, or Pagan celebrities on DU. Yet I read Pagan criticizing Christians, Christian beliefs, and Christian celebrities daily. Why is this?

"Also, you seem to assume a state of mind about the pagans you met "they hate their parents." yet did not qualify that you actually heard it from them or not, so I assumed it was a generalization of the ones you met, was it or was it not?"

That's quite an imagination you have there.

[Solon]

61. No of course not, we were only blamed for 9/11, shit like that...

go to the Focus on the Family website, look into what they say, or the Christian Coalition, and see what they say. Hell look up at FOTF website, use the search words, Godsmack, Wicca, Army, and see what comes up.

[InvisibleBallots]

63. ah yes Falwell, the DUer

I see

[w4rma]

62. Wrong. (nt)

[hickman1937]

4. Bob Jones finally got his X-mass gift from China.

Bet he's one happy slime tonight.

[Carl Brennan]

5. Boycott China....zzzzzzzz

Can you imagine corporate America taking a stand here on principle, hee.

[ClarkUSA]

6. Considering what the Knights of Columbus think of their leader, Bush,

I'd say China would rather not have religion become the opiate of THEIR masses,
as it is here.

[DemBones DemBones]

9. Bush** is NOT the leader of the Knights of Columbus,

as your post seems to say. He's not even a member, and can't be since he's not Catholic.

The national leadership of the K of C has been very supportive of W's alleged pro-life position; I think that's probably what you're getting at here. I wish all my fellow Catholics saw him as I do.

[madrchsod]

8. you won`t hear any of the

right wing fuck heads spewing over the treatment of the christians in china. nope not a word. it`s us liberal demorat`s here in america that is the enemy of the beloved jesus and his brother bush.

[tjdee]

12. Actually this is how the "Christians are persecuted" thing remains ongoing

Things like this happen in other countries, China is especially irritating about it. So when you hear that "Christians are persecuted" that's where it comes from.

[aikido15]

13. You won't hear it....

..because every self-hating imperialistic capitolist pig in America knows how much our government is in debt to China...lots of money, lots and lots! There is no way US is going to bash anything about China, they need them.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

10. Great. Use this as a stick against Wal-Mart.

Show it to every fundie brain-dead dolt (I know, I repeat myself) you know.

[Swamp Rat]

17. Good ammo against Wal-Wart.

Oi cara, você está vivendo aqui agora ou aí no Rio?

:hi:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

23. No Rio

Apareceu um Wal-Mart gigante na Avenida das Américas (Barra). Argh!

[Swamp Rat]

28. Fela da puta! ... Chamando ao Lampião! Chamando ao Lampião!

A gente precisa você agora, o Lampião, salvar-nos dos invasores americanos do capitalista!

[DarkSim]

19. Idiots...

I've been to the government regulated churches and the illegal ones here in beijing and they are in no way different. Why in the hell did those people choose to do it illegally when it only takes 3 weeks to get permission to have a service anywhere in china you want? The government wont do anything if you have the correct papers. Jeez, i don't get some of the westerners here... I bet these people didn't even bother asking their local town council/embassy where to get the correct papers. It's so easy, why couldn't they do it???

[solinvictus]

21. Because in a free country...

you don't have to obtain government permission to worship as your conscience dictates. Boycott Chinese goods!!

[DarkSim]

22. But they knew

they were not in a free country. Why risk being assaulted by the police when it could have been so easy to avoid? That is the point i'm making.

I love china. This is a brilliant country. I think most people should take a few years a come live here. People have such rediculous preconceptions about this place. Hell, i'd go as far as to say that in some respects (N.B some) this place is more free than america!

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[InvisibleBallots]

32. noted DarkSim

loud and clear

[AliciaKeyedUp]

59. More free than America?

Let's see how many people here would rather live in China, a totalitarian state.

The U.S. has its many, many flaws, but it's not as bad as China.

[StoryTeller]

24. Not idiots.

As I understand from a personal conversation with a leader of one of the unregistered Chinese churches, registered churches lack a significant amount of free speech. They basically become mouthpieces of the government. Not that unregistered churches particularly wish to spend time criticizing the government, but if they register, they are restricted as to what parts of the Bible they may teach from and are required to preach from their pulpits the official party line from the government. The "house church" movement does not necessarily condemn all registered churches, and they do acknowledge that there are some really excellent ones available. But they firmly believe that a church should not be the tool of any government. It seems to be a lesson some of our churches in America need to learn.

[JohnLocke]

25. People shouldn't need the fucking permission of the government to worship

"Each according to the dictates of his own conscience"

[InvisibleBallots]

39. the major difference I see between the Commies and the West

and this goes for the ex-USSR and the leftover commie states like NK, not just China - they simply do not allow the freedom of assembly.

Here in the US, and mostly (with big exceptions) in the EU, you can assemble, organize, and start a group about anything you want - religion, atheism, science, culture, music, or just to hang out and drink beer.

The Commie states regulate and control any kind of assembly. It's nothing short of a major violation of human rights, but it's the only way totalitarianism can survive. Even free speech isn't quite as dangerous as assembly - any loudmouth can say anything they want, it hardly makes a difference until you have a group of people behind him.

Just rambling...

[The Magistrate]

43. A Little History Might Be In Order Here, Sir

Government regulation of religious practice in China long pre-dates Communism. This is in large part because the Imperial governance was itself a religious form, with the Emperor acting essentially as the chief priest of a national shamanistic cultus that things like good weather and such depended on the proper practice of. Rebellions generally originated in heterodox cults, and so any religious practice outside the established parameters was watched closely.

China's first sizeable encounter with widespread Christian belief (as opposed to diplomatic and other foreign lodgements in the Imperial court itself) was the Tai-Ping Rebellion shortly after the Opium Wars. This was one of the most cataclysmic events of human history, lasting for decades and killing someting on the order of forty million people, roughly ten percent of China's total population at the time. A certain official gingerness towards the belief system, even in the present day, is understandable, though it is certainly unpalatable to our own views here....

[InvisibleBallots]

50. if China were alone in Communist nations to interfere with the freedom

of assembly, or religious groups being the only they refuse to allow assembly to, that might be relevant. But it's a common characteristic of totalitarian states, especially including the former and current "Communist" states. And your rude insistence on addressing me as "sir" - after I requested you not do so - is duly noted.

[The Magistrate]

52. Well, Sir

As noted above, if you insist on taking offense where none is meant, there is really nothing to be done for you.

Nor, for that matter, is there much that can be done for you if you are genuinely of the feeling that the particular elements of background in a quite foreign culture, with a very, very long system of traditions of statecraft and civilization that has marked points of difference with our own, is not relevant to an understanding of its current government's actions in some matter, particularly where there is a handy tar-brush labelled Communism laying nearby....

[InvisibleBallots]

53. that's hardly a specific trait of China

If regulation of religion was unique to China, if government was often of a religious nature in only China, then perhaps their repression of assembly - including assembly of a completely secular nature - would be best explained by their specific history. Obviously, the history of a society is important to its current policies, no one has claimed otherwise. In this case, their repression of assembly seems very much similar to the same repression of assembly in other Communist countries specifically, and totalitarian states in general.

As for the handy tar brush labelled Communism laying nearby - nothing I say could ruin the reputation of those governments that have called themselves communist even a tiny bit compared to their own actions.

"if you insist on taking offense where none is meant, there is really nothing to be done for you"

Actually, it would be very simple - just refrain from addressing me as "sir". It's polite to address people they way they wish to be addressed, and insisting on using terms they find offensive is rude.

[The Magistrate]

54. As You Wish, Dear

In human history, you will find little that is unique, at least if a broader view of matters is taken, and you will certainly find nothing unique if an attitude that inquiry into particulars is a thing you can aford to remain oblivious to.

One thing that does strike me as unique about China in the modern era, and is the source of much of my fascination with the place and its history, is that is the only sizeable and powerful jurisdiction in which the most ancient forms of human governance survived intact into the age of steam and wireless and internal combustion. Besides the invaluable window into the whole human past this offers, it suggests to me that something in its cultural forms operates to preserve continuity in an extraordinary degree, and that therefore, in attempting to understand what occurs there today, it is best to be familiar with the whole weight and pattern of past practice, as these would seem to offer the soundest basis for understanding. If you would prefer to discard the great patterns of inertia discernable there, in favor of some minor perturbation imported recently from Europe, you are of course free to do so, but would be well advised to resign yourself to a degree of surprise, and accept that there will be a pretty poor fit between your view of events and developments there, and what is actually occuring.

[InvisibleBallots]

55. thank you, dear!

I find "dear" to be much more tolerable.

Your comments regarding China are interesting. Thanks. Perhaps China's repression of the freedom of assembly has more to do with their specific history than their recent communist history. Then again, perhaps not. Communist nations do share this trait of repression of the freedom of assembly, as most totalitarian governments do, so perhaps it's a mix of both, and the result of communism government finding common ground with their past.

[thegreatwildebeest]

58. Actually...

Actually there is a major difference, particuarly if you're Catholic. The Chinese Masses are illegitimate, for the simple fact that the official Catholic Church of China is made up of Bishops not appointed by the Pope. That makes the Mass, and by virtue the Communion, absolutely invalid. For people who take their religion seriously, the idea of attending an illegitamate Mass is unthinkable.

Overall the tone of your post is disgusting, since you're blatently approving of the Chinese governments crackdown on peoples fundamental religious rights. Calling people "idiots" for standing up for something is disturbing on all accounts, but particuarly in the case of a government that has a long history of human rights abuses. If you want to support such oppression I suggest you post at freerepublic, where such brutality is encouraged.

[Behind the Aegis]

20. Disgusting!

This is outrageous and sad. Even as bad as this is, it is nothing compared to the oppression they face here! :eyes:

The next time I hear someone bitching about how they are so oppressed here, I am going to direct them to this article so the can really understand what Christian persecution is!

[goforit]

64. As Christians slaughter Islamics in Iraq...........ya talk is cheap.

[Bono71]

67. Unreal and typical.

[Lost4words]

29. thats where wall-mart gets all the crap they sell.

so all you republican business sell outs dont mind moving all our manufacturing over to china???

For many years I bought USA even when it was more expensive, but I wanted to support my country . Now that my country has sold me out, who will I buy from now??

My next new car,if I ever get out of this jobless financial mess, will be from any company that has nothing to do with american automakers.

Hondas look real good to me and they are a better value and better made.
Or even Subaru.

[sweetheart]

34. This religion repression makes china more evil than the USA

Otherwise, there is little moral difference on the scale between the
two these days. That greedy business filth have paid ANY money or
trade with a regime that is so regressive in human rights terms
truly amazes me.... and it seems nixon's triangulation was only
temporarily effective, and that these days, the rise of the ugly
bush americans have created a simulaneous rise of an even uglier
chinese version that has been there all along.

Fuck china for this sort of stuff... and the EU is foolish to support
china with military embargo dropping until this sort of basic
human rights concerns are properly handled. That a criminal
nation like that is allowed to manufacture goods for western markets
is sick.

[Democrats_win]

36. ironic! China bans xmas but sells it. eom

[NNN0LHI]

51. Not ironic. It is bidness n/t

[hollowdweller]

66. Yeah Where's the Fundamentalist Push to Embargo China?

They are too busy buying Chinese Christmas ornaments at Wal Mart and eating after Church at restaraunts that violate the Sabbath.

[The Stranger]

42. Maybe . . .

armed police broke up Christmas Mass at an underground Catholic church

. . . they were Protestants.

[mutius]

65. it's going to happen here too.

mix religion with the state things change.