Britons' Belief in God Vanishing as Religion...Replaced by Apathy--Telegra

[Gloria]

From the new World Media Watch, up now at http://www.zianet.com/insightanalytical

Tomorrow at Buzzflash.com


1//The Telegraph, UK (Filed: 27/12/2004)

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;sessionid=ABP2J5LR3EMBNQFIQMGSNAGAVCBQWJVC?xml=/news/2004/12/27/nfaith27.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/12/27/ixhome.html&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=9409



BRITONS’ BELIEF IN GOD VANISHING AS RELIGION IS REPLACED BY APATHY

By Anthony King
Anthony King is professor of government at Essex University.



To say that Britain is rapidly becoming a godless country would be too strong, but a YouGov survey provides overwhelming evidence that the British are now a largely irreligious people.



Only a minority believe that God exists and almost everyone acknowledges that Britain is becoming an increasingly secular society.



There is little or no evidence of active hostility towards either religious people or religious beliefs.

Instead, the national mood appears to be one of benign indifference. Most people give the impression of regarding religion almost as a consumer good, one to be consumed by those who happen to have a taste for it.


MORE

[Bouncy Ball]

1. That last line you quoted

"Instead, the national mood appears to be one of benign indifference. Most people give the impression of regarding religion almost as a consumer good, one to be consumed by those who happen to have a taste for it."

Makes me think of the US. The marketing part, anyway. Religion is marketed HARD here. Ostensibly to increase the membership roles of churches which increases their income.

And imagine that: a country where a person can choose to believe whatever they want or nothing at all without being hassled about it. What an amazing concept. Really wish we'd catch on to that.

(By the way, I am a Christian. And a liberal. And I don't care what anyone believes, as long as their beliefs don't hurt anyone. And I wish the crazy ass fundies would leave me and my family the hell alone.)

[PartyPooper]

7. Amen to that!

:yourock:

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

12. Yep. Religion sells stuff.

It not only fills the coffers of the churches, but of those who market all manner of religious tschotskes: angel suncatchers, "praying hands" napkin holders, WWJD teddy bears and many more, far too numerous to list.

Then there are the professionals who stick "Christian" in front of their names to target a ready-made market: Christian marriage counselors, Christian motivational speakers, Christian investment planners, Christian musicians, artists, etc. Christian hair stylists and manicurists too, no doubt. "I can minister and make money at the same time!"

I wish I could be indifferent to others' religious choices. It used to be easy to do so, but not anymore. No wonder Europeans think we're nuts.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jdj]

70. true, we can't ignore it anymore

the fascists are all in church together, this is not coincidence

[Maat]

16. Amen to that!

n/t

[MARALE]

46. I am with you all the way!!!

I am Christian, but don't want to force my religion on anyone. I guess am more of a deist. I beleive in God, not everything in the Bible. The Bible has some good things in it, but I don't think people should pick and choose what to beleive out of the Bible. If they want to beleive that the world was made in 6 days, then they should beleive that the sky is made of water. I Bible was writen by men, it is not accurate. Genisis was written by 2 men and the stories meshed together by the some church officials. They put in what they wanted and kept out what they did not want. I will not believe a book that was voted upon by a bunch of men from the church. Especially the way they put down women. As a scientific person, I think that there is some sort of deity out there and there is some sort of design to our lives. But if you don't want to beleive as I do, I don't care. More room for me in Heaven!

[Synnical]

59. My thoughts exactly

What I wouldn't give to see that line in a US newspaper. Imagine the outpouring of hate mail the paper would receive for daring to compare religion to consumerism.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

2. Apathy?

No. It may look that way to the fundies, but it's actually the blissful tranquility of freedom of the soul.

[VegasWolf]

3. Amen. Amen Amen.Amen. Amen Amen..... n/t

[onager]

4. Good. Maybe I'll move there.

n/t

[usregimechange]

23. Maybe we go to there instead of Canada? nt

[TahitiNut]

33. Well, I thought about going to the Church of Apathy ...

... but I figured "what's the use?" :eyes:

[Ferretherder]

62. What's the use?!!!!!!!

Why, just think of the possibilities!

You could mull over the choice of attending church or just telling other members that they must not have noticed you in the 'back row'.

You could put a dollar bill in the collection plate and then hastily retrieve it when you consider that the church will only use your donation to foster 'lack of interest' among the general populace - something you have little interest in.

You could endlessly attempt to overcome your general dis-interest in the goings-on of the church by trying to come up with some form of committee devoted to sparking interest into the inquiry as to why there is so much dis-interest in church affairs!

Need I go on?

[TahitiNut]

66. You must have the Church of Apathy mixed up with ....

... the Church of Ambivalence. :evilgrin: (They're in the same neighborhood.)

[Ferretherder]

71. Uh, oh yeah. You're right.

I always get those guys mixed up.

But, really, who cares?

[nolabels]

73. They are just down the street from a couple more

known as the Alter of the Small Minded and Temple of Bigots.

If all these people that said they had a practiced religion adhered to just some of the philosophies that are part of them religions, the world could be a very enlightened and peaceful place

I am a rock

A winter’s day
In a deep and dark December;
I am alone,
Gazing from my window to the streets below
On a freshly fallen silent shroud of snow.
I am a rock,
I am an island.
I’ve built walls,
A fortress deep and mighty,
That none may penetrate.
I have no need of friendship; friendship causes pain.
It’s laughter and it’s loving I disdain.
I am a rock,
I am an island.

Don’t talk of love,
But I’ve heard the words before;
It’s sleeping in my memory.
I won’t disturb the slumber of feelings that have died.
If I never loved I never would have cried.
I am a rock,
I am an island.

I have my books
And my poetry to protect me;
I am shielded in my armor,
Hiding in my room, safe within my womb.
I touch no one and no one touches me.
I am a rock,
I am an island.

And a rock feels no pain;
And an island never cries.
(snip)

Simon & Garfunkel Lyrics
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/s/simon-and-garfunkel/124809.html

:shrug:

[VegasWolf]

5. I studied an evangelical site that claims that only 22% of people

in Europe are what they term "churched". They are
seriously worried that the decline in attendence here
in the United States will seriously impact their revenue flow.

[hyphenate]

34. Awwww......too fucking bad.....

:)

I'm in agreement with most here. I believe everyone should have the freedom to believe whatever they want to believe, whether it's Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Wicca, Druidism, Taoism, Hinduism, Buddhism, or even Christian Science. I don't want them shoving it down my throat. I also think that the previous poster is right--the "Christian" leaders in the U.S. are using religion as a wedge issue in order to line their own pockets and increase their powerbase. The "Christianity" of the fundies and evangelicals is NOT Christianity by any means. It's the equivalent of a vacuum cleaner, sucking life, energy and money out of a gullible base.

I'd be happy to consider living in a country that maintained moral values by virtue of conscience and the "golden rule." I find it reprehensible that people in our very own country can not and will not treat kindness and compassion as second nature, and do it only because it is the "Christian thing to do."

[KansDem]

45. LOL--"It's the equivalent of a vacuum cleaner"

The First Church of Electrolux...

It will save your soul and carpet at the same time...

Satan and dust bunnies, beware!!! :)

[Just Me]

69. Oh, my,....I believe I am spiritually connected with you!!!

Yup!!! The fundies are black-holes,...not the "givers" of hope or inspiration. They suck the very life out of people,...for profit and power,...for their own gratification.

None of them have "faith",...since they feel compelled to shove their will upon others (which is, by all religious and philosophical edicts,...an evil, FORCING one's will upon another is EVIL).

[termo]

38. 22% sounds very optimistic

near only old people are going to church, they can even hardly find preachers...

from my point of view (east of france, old europ) they must have included people going to church once a year at christmas in these 22% !

if they start to offer free beers, they can reach 40-50% easily !!!

:toast:

[TyeDye75]

75. In Britian less than two million

Christians attend Church regularly.

I think theyre now actually outnumbered by practising muslims.

[twenty2strings]

61. The five freedoms?

Freedom of speech and expression. Freedom to worship God in your own way. Freedom from want. Freedom from fear. and coming soon...Freedom from religion. :bounce:

[Just Me]

6. Another headline PUSHING the religion line.

Pisses me off.

SO WHAT,...if "There is little or no evidence of active hostility towards either religious people or religious beliefs."

Is that BAD?

Is a national mood of benign indifference BAD?

BAH!!!

Even more hilarious is the line that "Most people give the impression of regarding religion almost as a consumer good, one to be consumed by those who happen to have a taste for it."

Oh yeah,...that would be "faith".

Crazy.

[Disturbed]

8. Did God stop...

the slaughter of millions in the past? Did God stop the Armenian Holocaust, The Rape of Nanking, The Euro Holocaust, The Famines in Africa, The Flu Pandemic, Aids, etc, etc.?

Why people still persist in that notion that God has any thing to do with this planet has been a question I have had for many years. Shouldn't it be obvious by now that God doesn't have anything to do with any events on this planet?

[VegasWolf]

10. The fundie answer, "god works in mysterious ways."n/t

[Just Me]

63. Yup. Man avoids responsibility by invoking God.

How sick is that?

Man excuses wager of violence upon both nature and humanity motivated by pure greed,...by invoking God.

How sick is that?

Man invokes God in order to manipulate the masses to their detriment.

How sick is that?

If I were God,...I'd be pissed.

[Liberal Veteran]

13. In truth, that is ALMOST, but not quite what we have here....

We have tons and tons of McChristians who treat religion as though it were something to cling to only at convenience. It makes them feel as if they are really good by expressing faith in God and it often gives them a shield to justify their own petty bigotries against various groups of people. They use it to justify their hatred of people who are different in any way, whether it be sexual orientation or people of different faith such as millions of peaceful muslims around the world. It can even be used to hate those who are less fortunate or stricken with disease because they can just write it off as God's will.

Meanwhile, and I have seen this time and time and time again, these same people drink, smoke, sleep around, lie, curse, cheat, and sometimes steal. They are often the incarnation of the seven deadly sins: Greed, sloth, pride, lust, gluttony, envy and most of all ANGER.

They pop into church once in awhile (sometimes more regularly) and give a little to the church and the moment they step out of the threshold of the temple they shed anything worth learning in there while clinging desperately to the easy parts.

It's a sort of fast-food type of religion that we see more often.

They also think they are the majority. The strange thing is that Jesus himself said that true Christians would NEVER be the majority:

Matt. 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Matt. 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

[Gloria]

14. Remember, it's the Telegrah...RW paper...

eom

[CJCRANE]

30. The Telegraph used to have a good reputation...

for being very factual, but like any RW paper does seem to get "planted" stories now and again.

[Demonaut]

9. My Nan never got the taste for it and she died today

I hope if there is a heaven that God will look upon her life and and judge it worthy, she saved us kids from an abusive stepfather and was always that sea of calm and an island of refuge in the chaos of our childhood....I will always love you Nan nor will I ever forget you.

[VegasWolf]

11. Demonaut, best wishes to you and your family! n/t

[Maat]

18. I know in my heart that your Nan will go on to a better place ..

her energy will migrate to a new body or a new place of enlightenment and peace. And she'll be there to protect you still - and help you in your life.

Blessings and comfort to you!

I know what you mean ... my paternal grandparents are the prime reason I have had a successful life. My parents 'dumped' us at their home from my birth until I was 15. Thank the Great Spirit. Without them, I never would have known how to create a happy, substance-abuse-free existence for myself.

[WLKjr]

67. I had grandparents like that too

except I wasn't neccessarily dumped so to speak, althought I was there all the time, having a mom that is a single parent with 3 boys and a dad that was never there in out time of need. My mom had no other choice but to leave us with my grandparents and work constantly to provide the things we needed.


And for that I am grateful, I am in college right now (almost done), working full time (even though it doesnt pay much) and just realizing what potential myself and my brothers have now with the things we were taught from them and my mom.

My thoughts are with you.

[Piperay]

57. R-I-P

to your Nan. :hug:

[Kurovski]

15. God fatigue

When God is moved out of the private, spiritual realm and into the political, "he" becomes as tedious as any politician.

Britain drove it into the ground decades ago.

[Maat]

17. Rev. Barry Lynn of Americans United for Separation and State..

believes that religion doesn't flourish in countries in which people are forced to participate or forced to support a church. In England, there is an official state church, and thus taxpayers support it. Kind of lends support to his argument - he believes that separation of church and state actually makes religion flourish and congregations prosper. That's why he fights to keep the separation (one of the many reasons). He believes that, if that wall of separation breaks down, in due time, religion will actually lose out bigtime.

Interesting.


And, no, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the attitude in the article. Seems fine to me.

[Smarmie Doofus]

19. But religion, or at least Christianity , is also in decline...

across western Europe. Far as I know, there's no state religion in Germany, France, Netherlands, etc.

I think there are other things at work here, besides taxpayer support.

[Maat]

20. Oh, yeah. No doubt.

I was just pointing out a point-of-view. To tell you the truth, I'd have to check out whether or not there is a state-sponsored church in a European nation. Interesting thoughts.

But I agree with Barry Lynn that weakening the wall will result in a backlash that will harm organized religion in the long run, particularly the relgious right variety.

[hyphenate]

36. Oh, hell yes.

The founding fathers framed the Bill of Rights so that there would be no state religion, because it would take that headache and give it back to the people. But the truth is, none of this radical religious right crap was as tyrannical as it was until the second half of the 20th century. While people could quietly worship or not worship as they pleased throughout our history, the churches were losing a lot of revenue. That's why there has been subtle infiltration through the years, through presidents who had a weaker side. Adding "in god we trust" to our currency was one step, adding "under god" to the pledge of allegiance was another step, and allowing evangelical, radical religious right leaders to proliferate was the next to final step. Putting a complete moronic--but evangelical--chimp in the white house was yet another step toward their final goal of putting our country under their power. Now, they are actually starting to believe the shit they spout so much, and are letting the loonies in the RRR take over the frontline. There is NO true religion within the leadership of the RRR, only godless greed, power grabbing, and heinous intolerance. The putzes on the frontline actually DO believe that they're better than most other people because their "church" encourages their crackpot ideas and lack of intelligence, saying that only the "true" ones will be saved. It's no wonder that dangerous idiots like Roy Moore, GWB, Fred Phelps, and others have managed to gain a foothold in our country.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

21. There was a state church in Germany when I was there in the 1960s

Different regions of Germany are either Protestant or Catholic, depending on what religion their rulers followed before the unification of the country in 1870.

I don't remember the details, but I remember talk of a "church tax" and how the only way you could get out of it was to officially declare yourself an atheist.

The Scandinavian countries also have state churches, and I think that the Netherlands do to.

France, however, has had a secular government since the Revolution.

[Smarmie Doofus]

22. If so, I stand corrected. Maybe there is....

something to Lynd's argument.

But viva la France !

[reorg]

72. no, there is no state church in Germany

Church taxes are collected from church members only, of course, as soon as you leave the church you don't have to pay anything.

As to the (declining) numbers of church membership and church attendance see here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1103207&mesg_id=1103325&page=

[PassingFair]

64. It's called

...evolution. Time for humanity to grow up.

[sweetheart]

27. I credit the BBC

The religion editor of the BBC is an atheist... that says it all.

There has been a campaign of secularization in the public media, with
excellent educational programming on religions and history. Honestly,
when you look at christianity historically, the real stuff about
jesus, what happened in his life, and the real origins of the bible
and the history of christianity in britain related to kings like
hentry VIII, the crusades and all that stuff... it is rather
evident to any modern student of history, that the religion of
ignorance has been driving british society for many years, centered
in churches, allowing terrible ethnocentric strife, wars of racial
repression and some really horrible criminal behaviour.

It strikes me that britain has, as a culture, has learned. British
christians i know, are quite authentic, believing in charity,
goodwill towards all people and all the good stuff. The organized
church of the state deserves to decline, and the religious guys in
the house of lords should be purged along with the formal definition
of the monarch as the head of the state church... its all long
overdue, and the media has been setting the ground for the shift
towards total separation of church and state.

This is a quote from the official british publication for would-be
citizens:
...A belief grew that an individual's conscience was closer to
God than the authority of priests and bishops. Gradually, the Church
of England became more prodestant, although never as extreme as,
for a while, in Scotland. Scottish preachers believed that God spoke
directly to congregations of believers who elected their own
ministers and rejected the authority of bishops.
- Life in the United Kingdom: Journey to Citizenship, pp 23, by the
Home office.

You can see in the quote, that believing god speaks directly to
one's church or self, is "extreme". You can see in the example how
secularization is the editorial position of government in the UK,
no matter the bishops and whatnot.

[muriel_volestrangler]

82. The Church of England doesn't get any taxes

it is, however, a large landowner, and it obtained that land with the support of the monarchy (rather than the land being given to barons who fought for the king). Originally the land was given to the Roman Catholic church, but Henry VIII confiscated it and gave most of it to his new Church of England.

[daleo]

25. The Telegraph recently lost their libel case with Galloway

I hope I got the spelling correct. He is a British member of Parliament that was against the war. The Telegraph claimed that their reporter found papers in an Iraqi government building shortly after the invasion that showed Galloway was getting money from Saddam Hussein. Galloway sued The Telegraph for defamation and won. I believe The Telegraph had to pay him 300 thousand pounds for their lying. It is always well to remember this, whenever The Telegraph is used as a source.

I wouldn't believe them if they reported that the sun was made of hydrogen.

[AP]

26. I believe this is a consequence of having a state religion. If America...

....really wanted to destroy Christianity they could do it by making it the state religioun.

When people feel that religion is something imposed on them from the outside rather than something that comes from an internal conviction, that's when they stop going to church on Sundays and stop believing in god.

[Divine Discontent]

28. there is a plethora

of historical evidence of the lives of the disciples, Jesus, and the early Christian church, so for me, I put faith (as that's what faith is) that Jesus died for my sins as a man. we all are horribly sinful and don't do as much good as we'd like to or should, it's just fact.

every one has the right to ignore Christ or other religious beliefs, and sadly, this administration and millions of americans DON'T want that to be, they are way judgemental and intolerant, and that is why europe has drifted some from religion in general, along with the fact these are the end days of this earth, and why not, look at all the HORRIBLE things we do as nations?

ps - my heart goes out to the DU'er who lost his loved one above. peace be with you...

[sweetheart]

29. What you call a fact is a sad abuse of language

It is not a fact that "these are the end days of this earth", or
"that we are all horribly sinful and don't do as much good as we'd
like to or should." That is conjecture, a postuation, your untested
moral theory on humanity, but definitely no fact.

The earth will outlive humanity by a gazillion years, and as elments
of dust in the universe a buzzagazillion years... certainly not the
end days of the earth.

As well, you view life as sinful and not sinful, which is a theory
on which you are collecting evidence, and judging yourself and others. Perhaps your theory is wrong, and life just is. Your theory
is less substantial than the theory of evolution, as there is
empirical evidence for the latter.

British secularism does not dispute that there was once a man named
jesus, that he was a felon, had 70 or so regular disciples and a pack
of people who came to see him. The evidence in question is why
accounts of the time, by scribes of christ, like phillup, were
omitted from the bible. And for this, look at how biblical christianity
has been used as a tool of repression and horrible strife, from
the batty wankers who govern america, to the crusades and invasions
authorized by the ethnocentric view that the "one" true religion
empowers warmongers to kill heathens... that even today, that
thinking is prevalent in the iraq invasion.

"Jesus died for my sins as a man" is also pure conjecture... jesus
died. That is a fact. It seems, rather that he was killed for
teaching people to be free, beyond the political rulership of the
time, and that this threatened the establishment. The facts portray
a political murder. The conjecture, erases the harder truth for the
wooly feel-good died for our sins thinking, supported by nothing but
fluffy pillows, and a pamphlet issued by middle ages propagandists.

We agree that the principals that jesus taught during his life have
been grossly misunderstood and misapplied. Any serious student of
facts and history surely must raise and eyebrow at the rhetoric
extending from the american government. Jesus and his life are
grossly misrepresented by these cretins... and if we were to view
this in the historical context of jesus of nazareth himself, the
entire american mainstream, and british mainstream would be deemed
phairasees.

Using factual analysis to understand history context is very powerful,
and sadly the religion most prevalent in the world is ignorance.

[mithnanthy]

31. Sweetheart....

I agree.

[Divine Discontent]

77. nice theories

there is no way of knowing that the world will "outlive humanity by a gazillion years" as you state, also. the news of the earth going off it's axis for a short period is an example that we have no true knowledge of when & where the days as we know them, end, and Christ's reign, imo, begins.

fluffy pillows or not, my thoughts have been well thought out, as yours have.

every single person commits acts against humanity in cruelty, judgement, bending of the truth, and some do worse (inquisition, warfare, rape, murder).

we all must answer, imo, for a priceless liberty where we choose to do things to help others or not & follow Christ's principles that he spoke, everyone one of them.

I believe Christ has touched my essence to allow me to see the proverbial light, as they say, & dealing with the Bush junta daily, it's a comforting realization for me. to me, to say the fact is there is no definite truth, right & wrongs, is in itself stating a belief in that being a fact/truth, so I choose to believe, or better yet, have faith, in a higher power named Jesus. there is good & evil, I've seen it when it rears it's ugly head in the form of wars, plagues, & murders (like Matt Shepard's for example).

We aren't here for long, maybe 100 years, and I believe we were created to go on for longer than that, in some form.

THANKS for your response. it's great to see there are people who are able to converse on here.

[sweetheart]

78. Jesus Christ as the basis of knowledge & process theology

If we dispense with radio-carbon dating and other forms of measuring
the earth's age, surely it is as admisable that the earth was
created out of modelling clay 200 years ago, and that god implanted
the memories of previous history in to a generation, so they would
forget that they were really created by god 200 years ago, and that
the earth is really 200 years old.

I'm sure american schools will be teaching the new truths soon, given
how uncredible radioactive dating is. ;-) I myself believe that radio
dating might be wrong, and that perhaps the halflife rates themselves
decay. That said, the rock where i live is several hundred million
years old. I'm sure that the human species will be long extinct in
such another long period.

Funny you mention the earth's axis. It changes constantly, and quite
frankly, it is human hubris to presume that there is any constant axis,
as what science does tell us, is that the axis has done nothing but
change. But that is the human mental fallacy, trying to make something
that is in a constant state of flux, appear constant by the mental
snapshot we hold of it.

The only fact is this moment in time, our awareness of it. In to this
are the empirical facts introduced by our sensory experience, such as
the sun is rising, to apriori facts we "know" such as the meaning of
"equality" and "justice" which are simply words for something already
innate in the human consciousness. Measured against this unverifiable
internal benchmark for truth, the outer world is a mirage, an illusion. All of this percieving of the world, however is done with
the senses which are themselves ephemeral to the vehicle of perception,
the human attention field right now.

So rather, if we accept all perceptions as unverifiable, and only
our immediate awareness as truth, then descarte was wrong, and it
is sum ergo cogito" "I am therefore I think." So then, if we
call the "I am" consciousness of all human beings the "christ consciousness", and its evolution in form, its life process, then
easily it appears that all of life is molded of christ, and that
any departure in to sensory experience, to believe it true over
the root truth of the miracle of existance is "falling away" from
the truth of god. And like lucifer, sense-percievers are brilliant
and clever with what they get up to, believing the reflection of
senses to replace the original "I am" consciousness, when in fact
they are never separate, and if they surrender their attachment to
being a perciever in the world, they are absolved by the still
awakeness that is already there to be at one with God.

So it seems, in a true analysis of facts and the root of knowledge,
one might very well come to discover jesus as all things. And from
that position of faith, see all things as reflections of that. In
sanskrit, "samsara is nirvana". The ephemeral existance IS the
unmanifest pure eternity of all of life, separation and judgement
being only reflections of a sensory mind.

In this regard, the process of awakening to the truth of life and
one's self is itself the core of religion, and a greater appreciation
of christ awakening as alive beyond a pamphlet of rules, takes no
fluffy pillows at all. Everything is right now, and the thoughts and
forms of religion and science just mental conjecture for writers. :-)

[JPace]

44. "they could do it by making it the state religion"

I think the destruction would happen in the process of choosing which religion to nationalize. Can you imagine the free for all that would take place between the churches to become "THE CHOSEN ONE"?
All hell would break loose!

[Vogon_Glory]

32. With The "Example" We Americans Set, Small Wonder...

Even if many of us (myself included) are Christians of one sort or another, small wonder that Christianity doesn't seem that appealing in the UK these days. Thanks to relentless right-wing American fundamentalist/evangelical propaganda, Christianity is becoming inexorably linked to a reactionary social and political agenda that seeks to force women back into kitchens, revoke any protection the state may extend to the poor and downtrodden, and revive social Darwinism as a governing philosophy, and make religious and social bigotry acceptable practices. Is it surprising that so many Britons want nothing to do with it?

Anyone trying to speak up for Christian beliefs with a more liberal bent must have an uphill struggle these days.

[Texas Transie]

35. god is real

he is everywhere and he loves you

[hyphenate]

37. Boy,

that disruption had a quick end! :)

[termo]

39. humans created gods

oem

[strobetoad]

41. God has a funny way of showing his "love"

If we treated our children like God treats his, we'd all be in prison for child abuse - and rightly so.

The Bible God will eventually end up on the slag heap of discarded gods and myths.

[sweetheart]

47. very nicely put

Thanks texas transexual. Sadly more gay and trans people
are eschewed by the official republican cardboard god.
When you're right, that there are no exceptions in
unconditional love.

Welcome to DU. :-)

[JNelson6563]

40. It seems Europe is far ahead of us

on some points of evolution. Remember, America is "in its infancy." From what I know of history this is true and there is likely a new and improved "dark ages" awaiting us as soon as we wrap up the imperialism stage we are experiencing.

All I can say is there are some who will be disappointed to find that after the next "fall of Rome" it won't mean the end of the world with them being swooped up into paradise. It will be more like the world of Mad Max.

Julie

[BiggJawn]

42. I wish we could afford to be "apathetic" here in Murka...

Perhaps they don't have the problem in England of Fundy nut-cases trying to get twisted theology incorporated into Law over there.

I think that's how we have found ouselves in the mess we are in here. For too long, we've been complacent, we've either ignored or laughed at the Dominionists, christian Identity people, Jerry Foul-Well, Ralph Reed, and the rest of them. Sure, what they talk about is fantastic bullshit, but you can't take away that they believe it completely.

And now they want YOU to believe it too, under pain of punishment...

[Sara Beverley]

43. I think the US Republicans and RW-conservative Christians have done more

to destroy Christianity than any group on earth. They have made Christianity into an intolerant, racist, sexist, homopoobic, ignorance-worshiping, money-grubbing, cult. Nothing like the teachings of Jesus Christ who would have none of it. I no longer feel comfortable being, let alone saying I am, a Christian. I want to call myself something else. We are not only witnessing the destruction of a great nation, but a great religion as well.

[ozone_man]

48. Europeans are way ahead of us as usual.

"Instead, the national mood appears to be one of benign indifference. Most people give the impression of regarding religion almost as a consumer good, one to be consumed by those who happen to have a taste for it."

This is precious.

[Bigmack]

49. Europe....

... and the rest of the developed world believes in Science. That pretty well rules out fundie-type religions.

(Yes, I've read many of the tiresome "science and religion can co-exist" posts on this forum. Science and faith are two different worlds. One requires proof, and the other blind belief.)

[VegasWolf]

50. No wonder the fundies hate europe, France in particular! Gotta

have the fundie god in all aspects of human life.

[onager]

51. Yep, the old joke is absolutely right...

"England sent its criminals to Australia and its religious fanatics to America. We're still trying to figure out how Australia got first choice."

I remember a literal "marketing campaign" the Church Of England put on a few years ago. A poster from the UK would know more about it.

But as I remember, one slogan was "As If!" e.g., "Jesus meek and mild--as if!" The whole idea was to re-package Jesus as a sort of dynamic, modern, action-figure kinda guy. This message was trumpeted on posters in the Underground, etc. etc.

The campaign was a miserable failure, and didn't achieve the aim of bringing more people into the pews. In fact, I think church attendance actually went DOWN...again.

[VegasWolf]

52. The best headline during the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal was from a

Sydney, Australia newspaper whose headline read,
"Thank God They Got The Puritans."

[manly]

53. gimme that old time religion

The faster and more completely religion vanishes from the face of the earth, the better. All religions.
Religion has been the greatest scourge against humanity in history, the greatest purveyor of ingnorance, enemy of free thinking, creator of hatred and prejudice, hypocrisy and sexual deviance, and intolerance.
If I believed in the existence of God and the Devil, I'd have to say the Devil has won.As it is, all I can say is that mankind has failed.

[Piperay]

54. I really believe most people in America

do not believe in God (anyway they don't live like they do) but they are afraid to admit it. The few who do believe are the ones who have a voice here and control everything.

[Johnny Noshoes]

60. Try this

experiment sometime. Casually mention to a group of friends that you are in fact an atheist - even if you aren't - and watch the reaction.

"When you trade your values for the hope of winning, you end up losing and having no values....so you keep losing." Howard Dean 2004

[goforit]

55. Well, duh!!...After watching the US Religious Right, religion is nauseat'n

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

56. Is it any wonder....Britons are smarter and have common sense.

Religion is the opiate of the masses, and a vast majority of Americans are junkies.

Hats off to the Brits! Death to theocratic government bullshit.

JB

[VegasWolf]

58. Hell, even Canadians have more common sense than Americans!

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

65. Canadians aren't rabidly religious, are they???

Most democratic societies, in which religion takes a backseat, tend to be well-adjusted, more intelligent, egalitarian, and giving to those in need...

...that's funny, the more these societies remove themselves from religous doctrine, the closer they start to model the TRUE GIFT of Jesus and other prophets.

FUCK ORGANIZED RELIGION.

JB

[goforit]

68. Well said!!!

[u4ic]

81. We're on par with the UK

http://www.canada.com/national/features/census/story.html?id=EC8D699B-434F-4491-8C91-18E956E828E5

Amusingly, the latest census figures also show 20,000 people declared themselves followers of the Jedi religion -- the guardians of peace and justice in the Star Wars movies.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1052830198299_40?s_name=&no_ads=

The scary thing is that the fundies are starting to invade. An old friend who I hadn't heard from in years called me up while she was in town, and we started to have a lovely visit until she started on at me about taking Jesus into your heart, blah blah, and very pushy. Although she gave me her number, I never contacted her, nor did I answer her calls. Just that hour was enough to turn me off.

My family is Catholic, but faith is private to them. I don't think they would accept gay marriage, but other than that, they volunteer, donate, don't piss on the less fortunate, etc. They don't even know that I'm Pagan, because it's never come up. Christmas is a time to get together; for them, church is the place for religion. They believe in both evolution and the bible, and nobody sees a conflict.

[TyeDye75]

74. I live in England

and I only know one person who goes to church and one person who goes to mosque.

The only time ive ever been to Church is a handful of weddings funerals and christenings, I myself am not christend

[aikido15]

79. sounds like a good place to be

England, away from the evangelicals...I am so sick of them and thier hateful rhetoric. I thought I would lose my mind with them calling liberals "the grinch who stole Xmas." Steal Xmas?? How does one do that?

[TyeDye75]

80. The ironic thing is

your ancestors (well some of them) fled our Island because of religious persecution.

Circle of life.

[leesa]

76. Good for them! Escape from hurtful fantasyland.