FBI investigating laser beam directed into airplane cockpit (8,500 feet)

[RamboLiberal]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/12/29/national1714EST0641.DTL

Authorities are investigating a mysterious laser beam that was directed into the cockpit of a commercial jet traveling at more than 8,500 feet.

The beam appeared Monday when the plane was about 15 miles from Cleveland Hopkins International Airport, the FBI said.

"It was in there for several seconds like (the plane) was being tracked," FBI agent Robert Hawk said.

The pilot was able to land the plane, and air traffic controllers used radar to determine the laser came from a residential area in suburban Warrensville Heights.

Anyone have link to warning a couple of weeks ago?

[proud patriot]

1. that is super creepy

x(

[Hillary08]

120. I don't like it

Seems to me like somebody is practicing for something. We'd better find out what the rehearsal is for before we learn the hard way.

I heard it's happend multiple times recently.

[sui generis]

2. not your average laser pointer

in fact, that's one hell of a powerful laser. Was the plane flying upside down at the time? Not sure how else someone shooting a laser pointer FROM HELL could get it inside the cockpit at 8500 feet.

/skepticism

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jdj]

126. they are suggesting one flash came from 15 miles away

how would they know this and how is it possible?

[Just Me]

3. They may want to start their investigation into the Pentagon.

What other body has the resources to do something like this,...at 8,500 feet? Huh?

[RamboLiberal]

4. So is something getting set up here?

Like I said I remember a warning from a link being posted here a couple of weeks ago from the feds. :tinfoilhat:

[RawMaterials]

8. aliens from mars pissed that we sent up remote controled cars n/m

[LibDemAlways]

23. You are right.

Sounds like the military testing one of their new classified weapons.

[Just Me]

27. Well,...I don't know whether I'm right or not. Common sense dictates,...

,...that,...there are only a handful of potential "causes" for such a thing. There could certainly be other explanations,...and I am happily open to those explanations.

But, hell,...a beam at 8,500 feet? That would either require one helluva complex refractory system,...or some other direct source. I'm no physicist (wish I would have studied it more, though). Still, this is quite an intrigue to me.

[MercutioATC]

73. How high does the laser on the Luxor reach?

It's above 8,500 feet, I think.

I don't think the technology is that complex for something like this.

[Just Me]

108. "Bending" it directly into a cockpit of an airplane,...

,...would be quite a fascinating feat!!!!

Doncha' think? :bounce:

[MercutioATC]

137. Oh, I agree, I just don't think 8500 feet would require anything really

hi tech...just a lot of power.

[complain jane]

134. Yes, good idea.

[gatorboy]

5. I pilot complained about the very same thing a few months ago.

I'll have to find the story, but the laser did enough damage that the pilot had to have his eyes checked. He said someone was using the beam to target the plane as it landed...

[progressiveBadger]

16. There was a huge thread on slashdot about that.

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/09/29/1420215&tid=172&tid=99&tid=1

[saltpoint]

6. In some of the earlier reports on 9/11 --

-- the airplane that eventually crashed in western Pennsylvania was originally headed for Cleveland, I think.

Does anyone know if that's true?

And if so, is this the start of a Tom Clancy novel or what?

[RawMaterials]

12. The plane

was not going to Cleveland but was going to fly over until it turn around headed to DC

[saltpoint]

14. Oh. Thanks for the clear-up.

I thought I remembered something about Cleveland.

[HereSince1628]

7. No link but I thought the other report was from the western US

And I also thought that report said something about the driver of a car being hit with light.

[gatorboy]

9. Here's the other news article.

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595094973,00.html

Laser beam injures eye of Delta pilot

Incident occurs as airliner is getting ready to land in Salt Lake

[HereSince1628]

story from washingtontimes

as one might expect from a this paper they include the terror part of the story near the bottom.

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20040928-111356-3924r.htm

[bleedingheart]

10. The used car dealership won't be happy that they didn't stop in for the

big Deals!!!

[KansDem]

28. LOL! Good one...!

Having grown up in the Los Angeles basin during the 1950s-70s, I understood exactly what you meant...

Often on a summer's eve I'd see 2, 3, or more searchlights undulating across the sky above LA and know that at the base of each one was a BIG used car lot.

Thanks for the memory! :hi:

[IA_Seth]

41. LOL, we have one of those in Cedar Rapids, IA! n/t

[bleedingheart]

98. glad you liked it...we had the same kinda stuff here in Pittsburgh

in the 70's...always highlighting the sale of more junk...

[Richard Steele]

11. Another bit of utter BULLSHIT in the story...

"Air traffic controllers used radar to determine the laser came from..."

BULLSHIT!
You can't see a beam of light on radar! That's such an obvious CROCK of Bush.

[CoffeeCat]

17. So, what is going on???

Does anyone think this is a precursor to "terrorist activity?"

Bush took a great deal of vacation time--just as he's doing now--prior to 9/11.

On 9/11, there were damaging articles that were supposed to challenge Bush's election and spotlight that Gore won the popular vote.

Next week, will be a huge black eye for the president, with respect to his election. Conyers will contest the certification. Most likely many other Congresspeople and possibly senators will follow. Most damaging, average citizens will be out in massive force in DC to contest Bush and his fraudulent election.

We all know how Bush hates protesters or any kind of dissent. Just look at how he unraveled during the debates. Look at how he's cocooning himself away from any protesters during his precious inauguration. The man knows he can't handle tens of thousands of protesters carrying signs that embarrass him and call into question everything about him.

Scary. This administration is just plain scary.

[goforit]

32. Points well taken!!!........a great heads up.

This laser was seen on the space shuttle that went down.

The man who photographed it sent it into authorities and of course nothing came of it .....totally swept under the rug.

I feel that there is also a strong possibility that this is how
Welstone's plane went down and the 911 flight-crash in Pennsylvania.

Then you have the most recent crash, the Venezuelan plane carrying
all those Venezuelan Generals.

Yes, this administration doen't like being challanged.
They are weak, and violent resolutions are their only mantra.

[The Straight Story]

34. Here is something rather interesting I found

While looking for a link to your comment:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=30510

[goforit]

74. Hmmmm..........fascinating photos and really cool site.

The question is though, if someone would have this type of weapon in their arsenal what type of evidence would be found to direct it
to the scene of the crime?

Misuse of this weaponry has a high probability given the leaders
in this world.

[FloridaPat]

19. I was thinking the same thing. Light doesn't reflect radar waves.

Maybe that's to make the people doing it feel scared.

[ally_sc]

30. ya think, eom

[karlrschneider]

31. I'm wondering if they meant the radar tapes showed where the plane was

at the time in question and -assumed- the beam came from the ground close to a spot beneath its position...obviously it couldn't be -directly- underneath, I would think it would have to be at least several miles from that point in order to get it aimed into a cockpit window. Pretty weird in any case though...

[Boosterman]

56. Thats the only explanation I can come up with

That and the direction it was entering the cockpit. We need lots more info this is a weird story.

[americanstranger]

95. The neighborhood mentioned in the article

is 14 miles away from the airport.

And of you math whizzes out there care to compute the angle the pointer would reach, if 'tracking a plane 8500 feet in the air, travelling at about 150 MPH (avg. landing speed for commercial airliners)?

-as

[daleo]

133. I get 6.6 degrees angle.

The plane would have to be descending at a 6.6 degree angle, given those dimensions. I suspect that this is how they came up with the 14 mile estimate - they knew the plane was at about 8500 feet, descending at about 6.6 degrees, so any laser pointer on the ground would have to be 14 miles away to be able to enter the cockpit window. How likely these events are is another matter altogether (i.e. could a person on the ground even see a plane that far away?).

[purduejake]

144. That's one hell of a descent angle...

for a 737

[daleo]

146. I will defer to your superior piloting knowledge

I was just working out the simple trig problem, to see what further insights it might lead to.

[purduejake]

148. I wouldn't do that...

You put things into perspective and showed what a mystery it is. The only thing I could imagine is that the laser came from another aircraft. The position just seems impossible to pinpoint and it's really weird that they even tried.

[Art_from_Ark]

150. You're right according to my flight simulation software,

which says that average angle of descent at that altitude is about 3 degrees.

[NashVegas]

13. what was that program

some people in congress were making such a fuss about last week? something perhaps to do with satellites?

[Just Me]

26. Satellites,...satellites,...

,...would require the same level of refraction as a beam from the ground,...I imagine.

But, I'm no physicist or science whiz.

[lovuian]

15. The Pilot lost his eyesight because of it

Its about time they started investigating it!!!

[xchrom]

18. wouldn't the laser have to bend?

if it were coming from the ground?

[CabalPowered]

91. Radar used to track a laser source?

I don't think that's possible..?

[killbotfactory]

20. you can buy ultra-powered lazer pointers for 100 bucks...

wonder if someone used one of them and pointed it at an airplane

[TahitiNut]

21. Somewhere in Warrensville Heights is a house that narrowly escaped ...

... being filled with popcorn because someone dropped a mirror on the roof. :silly:

[shadowknows69]

36. a real genius reference...I love the 80's!!! eom

[TahitiNut]

38. Aww... you just like Michelle Meyrink (so do I)

:evilgrin:

[shadowknows69]

40. She was awesome did she ever do anything else? n/t

[TahitiNut]

59. Not since 1988 and not that I've seen.

I thought she was really adorable. The nerd in me was very much attracted to her. It seems she had a short career, 1983 thru 1988. As of September 2003, according to IMDb, she lives in Bowen Island, Canada, with her husband, John, and three children (12, 9, and 5). (It seems John finds her adorable, too.)


Former actor Michelle Meyrink allows viewers a glimpse into her life on Bowen Island where she and her husband John and their three children live. John and Michelle are practicing Zen Buddhists and are the subjects of a new 30-minute documentary showing Sept. 26 as part of the Quiet Mind series on Vision TV (Ch. 24).

MEDITATING in a tiny shed on Bowen Island isn't where one would think to look for an ex-1980s movie star.

But that's exactly where Michelle Meyrink can be found most mornings at 5:30 a.m - in the Zendo, meditating and practicing Zen Buddhism. It's a significantly different place from where she sat two decades ago.

Back in the early '80s, Meyrink was twenty-something when she left her hometown of Vancouver for Hollywood to plunge into acting.

Meyrink did well for herself, co-starring in such cult classics as Valley Girl as one of the four "it girls", The Outsiders as Cherry's bestfriend, Revenge of the Nerds as the Nerd girlfriend and plenty of other signature '80s flicks.

<snip>
http://www.nsnews.com/issues03/w091403/093303/artent/093303ae3.html

[Thor_MN]

64. The little squeek in her voice when she said "They're GONE!?!!"

worked for me, for some reason.

[Scout1071]

75. Her entire "filmography" courtesy of www.imdb.com

Actress - filmography

Permanent Record (1988) .... M.G.
Nice Girls Don't Explode (1987) .... April Flowers
Tonight's the Night (1987) (TV)
... aka The Game of Love
One Magic Christmas (1985) .... Betty
... aka Disney's One Magic Christmas (UK: video box title)
... aka Un drôle de Noël (Canada: French title)
Real Genius (1985) .... Jordan Cochran
Joy of Sex (1984) .... Leslie Hindenberg
... aka National Lampoon's The Joy of Sex (USA: complete title)
Revenge of the Nerds (1984) .... Judy, Gilbert's Nerd Girlfriend/Omega-Mu
Valley Girl (1983) .... Suzi Brent
... aka Bad Boyz
... aka Rebel Dreams (video title)
The Outsiders (1983) .... Marcia



Filmography as: Actress, Notable TV Guest Appearances

Notable TV Guest Appearances

"Family Ties" playing "Jane" in episode: "Don't Kiss Me, I'm Only the Messenger" (episode # 3.10) 29 November 1984

[proud2BlibKansan]

22. This is at least the 3rd time I have heard of one of these incidents

recently. Is this really happening or are these stories cruel hoaxes?

[SheepyMcSheepster]

24. seems like whatever is doing this would have to be pretty sophisticated?

it seems like it would have to be a device that tracks the plane in order maintain a constant beam because the "window" for getting a beam into the cockpit from the ground would be pretty small?

can anyone with a decent idea/background in this kind technology tell me what the purpose of such a device would be and how sophisticated the equipment would have to be to track the plane?

i suppose it could be possible for someone fooling around on the ground with a powerful laser just seeing if they could point it on the plane using a telescope or binoculars?

weird.

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. Forget about laser beams, birds are more dangerous

Every year more than $1 billion is wasted and lives are put at risk when birds and other wildlife collide with airplanes.
*********
In 1995, an Air Force AWACS radar plane crashed in Alaska, killing 24 crewmen, after geese were sucked into one of the plane's engines. It plunged to the ground just 43 seconds after takeoff.

Listed as contributing factors to the accident were the base's failure to keep geese off the runway infield and an air traffic controller's failure to tell the jet's crew he spotted geese on the field before takeoff.

That same year, a small jet carrying then-House Speaker Newt Gingrich, his wife and two bodyguards ran off a runway in northern Michigan after hitting four geese. No one aboard the plane was injured.

A study by the Montreal-based International Civil Aviation Organization recorded an average of 5,400 reports of bird strikes each year between 1984 and 1989.

The first recorded bird-related plane accident occurred in 1911 when Calbraith Perry Rodgers -- the first person to fly across the country -- died when a gull became entangled in the controls of his Wright Brothers biplane, causing it to crash.

The deadliest U.S. accident blamed on birds came Oct. 4, 1960, when an Eastern Airlines Lockheed Electra struck a flock of starlings and crashed into Boston Harbor, killing 62 people.

A pelican or crane was blamed for a 1987 accident involving an Air Force B-1B bomber in Colorado. The impact of the bird ruptured the plane's hydraulic system, causing loss of control.

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/US/08/28/planes.birds.ap/

[TheWraith]

122. Maybe they were terrorist geese? NT.

[goforit]

29. Bush's microwwave weaponry?

[mcscajun]

33. More fearmongering and distraction.

Patrick Smith, who writes the "Ask the Pilot" column for Salon.com, addressed some of this in a recent colum.

Excerpt (emphasis mine):

Apparently a handful of laser incidents have taken place in the past few months. Most notably, a pilot was hurt by a beam shone into the cockpit of a Delta Air Lines jet on approach into Salt Lake City. After landing safely, the first officer was found to have suffered a burned retina. Two other events reportedly occurred near the airport in Portland, Ore.

But then, barely 48 hours after the laser story broke, officials began downplaying the report, admitting that it's unclear whether what happened at Salt Lake City and Portland was the work of would-be saboteurs, pranksters or errant beams from light shows like the type used at concerts.

(snip)

For the record, even a well-aimed laser would be highly unlikely to cause a crash. Hitting both pilots cleanly in the face, through a refractive wraparound windshield, would require a great deal of luck, and even a temporarily blinded crew would still have the means to avoid disaster.

(snip)

The idea of terrorists bothering with such a plan is tough to accept. Say there's a 10 percent chance of a laser causing an accident. With limited resources and personnel, it's doubtful terrorists are going to risk exposure on an operation with a 90 percent likelihood of failure. (From a technical standpoint, one thing I find interesting is the presumption that approach and landing are the implicitly apropos time for such an attack. In fact, takeoff would be the more dangerous moment.)

[funkybutt]

37. what if it was used as an aiming device...maybe in a training exorcise

*or maybe it's all bullshit trying to scare people
*or maybe it's part of this "missile defence" star wars project
*or maybe it was just some kid in the cabin bouncing it off some reflective material in the cockpit
*or maybe there was some sort of mirror in space that reflected the beam so that it could acheive the angle necessary to hit the pilots face

[barb162]

35. just heard on national news that about 8 other airliners had the

same thing happen

[SKKY]

39. Yea, and that was in the past 8 days. Something bad is about to happen...

...I have a feeling.

[barb162]

42. did you hear it too? I can't remember the station as I was

switching from ABC, NBC, MSNBC, CNN, blah, blah, blah. The reporter also said the government said they believed the terrorists were interested in bringing airliners down this way. I always thought living near an airport and doing a shoulder fired missile would do the job and I am surprised it hasn't been tried here yet. It was tried in Africa against that ELAL plane a few years ago. There are so many ways to bring an airliner down. It is totally frightening. We are not protecting the airports and planes like we should be IMHO

[barb162]

45. see post 44, check cnn' s web site for the full story

[jdj]

127. I can hear it now:

ground control, do you think we need to go ahead with the laser-beam story for the set up? With the tsunami coverage we have enough media cover...

yeah, just as a prelim, go ahead and seed the laser story on the cable stations... we'll see how long the Asia coverage darkens the scene, we may or may not go ahead with operation "Bride of 9/11" depending on how many more folks wash up...

[reprobate]

43. Has no one heard of the US Air Farce's airborn laser?

It's mounted aboard an air force 747, with the laser mounted on a gimble at the nose to track its target.

Haven't seen much about it lately, but last year or so it was touted as part of the missle defense system. That seems to me to be the only way that you could target the pilot of an aircraft at 8500 feet. You would alost *have* to be airborn to do that.

Look for airliners to be brought down with this. It was probably only the targetting laser that was used now, full power would destroy the plane. It was designed to bring down an ICBM, so an airliner would be no problem.

NOW does anyone doubt MIHOP?

[fortyfeetunder]

141. airborne laser is not flying now

It exists but it will be years before it flies. These systems have to undergo years of flight tests before they are deemed operational.

[barb162]

44. HERE!!! This is from CNN.com now

Lasers illuminate airline cockpits on approach
Six incidents in four days
U.S. warns of terrorist lasers

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Six commercial airliners in the past four days have had their cockpits illuminated by laser beams while attempting to land, a government official told CNN Wednesday.

The incidents have happened "all over the place" and in "kind of odd places," the official said without elaborating.
snip

The government official, who spoke to CNN on condition of anonymity, said it was unclear whether this week's incidents were the result of "kids who got a laser light for Christmas" or whether there is "some deliberate attempt to target aircraft."

snip
"Terrorist groups overseas have expressed interest in using these devices against human sight," the bulletin said. "The U.S. intelligence community has no specific or credible evidence that terrorists intend to use lasers to target pilots in the homeland."
snip

[imenja]

47. delete

delete

[imenja]

48. delete

delete

[imenja]

49. Could it be SDI?

anyone know the technology of that thing?

[karlrschneider]

99. This appears to work much -better- than Star Wars...

:eyes:

[goforit]

115. Go to comment 34..........(fascinating)

[TheWraith]

51. Odd places? Expressed interest? How fucking moronic is this?

This article sounds like it was cobbled together by brain damaged howler monkeys.

[Just Me]

52. "kids who got a laser light for Christmas"

*LOL* You have GOT to be kidding?

EW!!! We are in such deep caa caa if "kids who got a laser light for Christmas" can somehow refract lasers to cockpits of airplanes!!! *LOL*

Geez.

[barb162]

53. maybe these shouldn't be "toys"

[TheWraith]

46. This sounds like such bullshit.

For one thing, how do you track a laser beam using radar? For another, how can a laser be tracked within 'several seconds' to such a precise area?

[Art_from_Ark]

62. Here are some more big gaping holes

If the jet were at 8500 feet, it would be traveling at a high rate of speed, say 400 knots, which is approximately 600 feet PER SECOND. If kids were playing with a commercial laser on the ground, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for them to track the laser onto a pilot's eye from what would have to be several miles away, given not only the speed of the plane but also the design and position of the cockpit vis-a-vis the exterior of the plane. Any ground-based "laser attack" that lasted for more than a fraction of a second would have to be done with sophisticated equipment, not a hand-held laser.

[Thor_MN]

67. How hard would it be if thr plane coming toward you?

Make it easier, think about aiming a flashlight at a train. If the train is down the track from you, there is very little relative change in direction. As it goes past, it would be hard to keep the light on the same spot on the train, but when it's coming straight at you, it's easy because the train isn't changing its angle much.

Now it's hard to aim a laser precisely enough to shine it into the cockpit, but if the plane is coming straight at you, you just have to hold it steady. In fact, if you mounted a laser on the line the plane is descending, you could bolt it down and it would light the plane up for the whole descent, assuming the pilot or control system had the plane flying down a straight path.

[Art_from_Ark]

93. Your train scenario doesn't work here

A train would be at roughly the same level as the laser manipulator, and the track would have to be perfectly flat and perfectly straight. A jet plane, on the other hand, would be traveling at a much faster clip, 300 feet per second or so, and on a different plane as a ground-based laser manipulator, so the angle between the ground-based laser operator and the pilot would be constantly changing, thus the laser would have to be constantly and precisely readjusted to keep the focus on the eye of a pilot. This is physically impossible for kids playing with commercially available lasers, and for anyone else on the ground without sophisticated tracking equipment.

[Thor_MN]

109. You entirely missed the point.

Getting all hung up on how fast a plane is moving is completely pointless. A beam of light doesn't care a whit if the target is approaching at 2 feet per hour or 3 miles per second.

What is relevant is how fast the target is changing its angle relative to the source.

The train analogy is just a way to simplify it to 2D rather than 3D. The closer you are to the track, the easier it is to keep a light pointed at it. If you are half mile off the track, you have to keep moving the light - you have to track. If you are standing on the track, you just have to aim and hold steady - the train will not be changing it's angle (much) and it doesn't matter a bit if the train is being pushed by a mouse at a millimeter a year or it's a bullet train at 300 miles per hour.

Essentially, if the target is approaching you, the angle is changing very little. If the target is not approaching you (moving tangentally) the rate of angle change is high.

Aiming is a difficulty as I stated, but tracking is much less important if you are on the flight path. If you don't believe me, go to the airport, get in line with the runway (if you can find a spot like that) and watch a plane land. While it is still at altitude, it will not be moving across the sky, just getting bigger. Contrast that to watching a child ride a bike down your street from your window. It's going to be MUCH harder to track the kid.

My point was that is if the laser is in the line of flight, tracking a plane for a few seconds is merely a matter of holding steady. The story does not indicate where in relation to the plane's flight path the laser was, making baseless conjectures about how hard it would be to track a plane because they move fast is a bit silly.

[Art_from_Ark]

125. How many kids are going to know flight paths?

And then are going to find a spot that will be in direct line with an incoming plane?

As far as that goes, how many planes travel in a straight line while making a descent?

Finally, as you mentioned, but failed to follow up on, the angle between a fixed point on the ground and the pilot's eye is always changing-- the same is not true for a train on a flat, straight track and a fixed object directly in its path. The train and the ground point are essentially on the same geometric plane-- this is not the case for an airplane and a fixed point on the ground. In the case of the airplane, its angle relative to a fixed point on the ground is always changing, so the laser, to be precisely focused on such a small "target" as a pilot's eye, would have to be constantly readjusted. Sorry, but this is way beyond the ability of kids playing with store-bought lasers.

[Thor_MN]

147. Buy a dictionary and look up "simplify"

How are kids going to know flight paths, I don't know, maybe get inline with a runway? Note that I never stated that kids with laser pointers could do this. I'm just saying that you don't have to have some fancy guidance system to light up a plane for a few seconds.

Are you maybe thinking that a laser is going to be a pinpoint at a distance of a few miles? The target is not the pilot's eye, it's the cockpit and the beam is going to be spread out that far at that distance.

Just because you can't imagine how a plane that moves so fast could possibly be illuminated by a laser doesn't mean that it's not possible.

Maybe we should all run out and buy some welding goggles to protect our vision, and better replace that duct tape and plastic sheeting while we are at it, thea dhesive in the duct tape eventually hardens and the sheeting becomes brittle.......

[Art_from_Ark]

151. Perhaps you should learn something about lasers

One of the characteristics of laser light is that it is collimated, meaning that there is almost no spread over long distances. In order words, a laser beam shined at a cockpit a few miles away is still going to be very narrow when it reaches the cockpit. This is one reason why looking directly at laser light is so dangerous.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/optmod/qualig.html#c7

Here's some information about laser properties and safety:

http://www.cat.ernet.in/others/lasinfo/safety.html

[chenGOD]

153. Umm you need to check your facts about beam divergence.

Yes lasers are collimated. Good lasers have a beam divergence of about 1 milliradians, which equals to an increse in diameter of 1mm per meter traveled. Gas lasers which are more powerful (and more expensive) have a smaller beam divergence, approximately 0.5 milliradians.

So 8,500ft=2590m. That gives an increase in diameter of (assuming a good semi-conductor laser with a beam divergance of 1mradians) 2,590mm or 2.59m. Which of course is quite an increase and hardly exact enough to blind a pilot. Assuming of course that the person holding the laser could refract the beam to shine into the cockpit in the first place, which, as you pointed out, would be next to impossible.


PS: i am agreeing with you on the ridiculousness of the idea of someone with a laser pointer refracting it into the cockpit. But lasers to have beam divergence, and they need to be focused to cause retinal damage.

[Art_from_Ark]

154. Thanks for the mathematical figures

But I think we would have to use the distance shown by the hypoteneuse of the triangle formed by the airplane, fixed ground point (laser), and moving ground point immediately under the plane, rather than the distance between the ground and the plane. That would mean even greater divergence for your hypothetical laser beam, but the diameter of the beam would still be so small that the plane, at 250 knots/hour, would pass through the beam instantaneously and, as you noted, the beam would hardly be intensive enough at that distance to cause problems for a pilot's eye.

[chenGOD]

155. Ahh yes...that's probably correct...

:)

[MercutioATC]

70. A correction to your "holes":

A plane below 10,000 feet is restricted to 250 knots or less.

That's still really fast, but it's not 400 knots.

[Art_from_Ark]

88. Even at 250 knots,

the ground speed would still be more than 300 feet per second, and the "target" would be far away, making it extremely difficult for rank amateurs to maintain a steady focus on the plane, much less the eye of a pilot

[MercutioATC]

94. As I said, it's still pretty fast...

[karlrschneider]

102. Oops, didn't notice your post from last nite, I pointed it out just a bit

ago...

[karlrschneider]

97. One small correction: the "speed limit" is 250 Kt. below 10,000 feet.

No airliner would be (legally) going 400.

[buddysmellgood]

123. Where would you have to be in order to shine a beam of light over the nose

of a plane that is about mile and a half up? Three miles away, four miles? I guess it could be done from a tall building in the path of the aircraft. Smells like bullshit.

[Must_B_Free]

50. Electronics Depot

Cleveland has the largest electronics surplus store I have ever seen. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they had an industrial laser available, pulled from some industrial application that was salvaged.

[fooj]

55. OMG!!

You guys are freaking me out! If this is suppose to scare the crap out of me...it worked! What do you think they're up to?:shrug: Is this some sort of sadistic ritual for them, or what?

WHAT ARE THEY HIDING???????:think:

[Just Me]

60. Awwww. Don't be frightened.

This is just,...stuff,...reality.

"They" operate on different terms (unfeeling capitalistic).

It's all "small stuff" in their world (destroying millions in their path).

I apologize in advance if I seem crass towards you.

[fooj]

66. no worries!

I try to keep my focus on what's important and then I see shit like this and for a brief moment I just want to run outside and scream my head off!! Then, I pull my head out from up my *** and I'm a more determined warrior than ever! PEACE!!!!

WHAT ARE THEY HIDING?????

[fooj]

68. Is anybody out there?

CAN ANYONE MAKE THESE EVIL BASTARDS GO AWAY?

WHAT ARE THEY HIDING????

[Just Me]

69. Wish a FOIA request could reveal,...

,...but the boilerplate "national security" thingy gets in the way.

[goforit]

116. Go to 1600 Pa. avenue.

[TheWraith]

76. Hell, you can buy industrial lasers on eBay.

That's the LEAST ludicrous part of this story.

[Just Me]

111. Are you suggesting that "industrial lasers" could do this,...

,...without some fairly goshdamned complicated SKILL? My brain is exploding. No personal offense to you.

I just do NOT comprehend, possessing the most basic math and human skills, how on earth anyone could possibly aim a laser directly into the cockpit of NUMEROUS PLANES, several thousands of feet OFF the ground, going several hundreds miles an hour.

THAT IS INCOMPREHENSIBLE TO "JUST ME". And to freakin' suggest that some kids with a new laser toy could possibly do this,...is beyond outrageous.

I mean, DAMN!!!!

Wow.

[TheWraith]

124. Not at all.

Quite the opposite. Acquiring a high-power laser would be the easiest part of doing this. You're right that hitting such a small target, moving so fast, from so far away, with no assurance that you're actually hitting it, would be next to impossible without about a million dollars worth of equipment.

[MADem]

54. Sounds like a STRONG ARGUMENT

...for cockpit cameras. Of course, the PILOTS wouldn't like it, but if one could go to the images and pinpoint the location of the plane and the aspect of the beam, it would enable them to get a halfway decent idea of where the damn thing was REALLY coming from....unless, of course, someone in our illustrious leadership ALREADY KNOWS....

[Lizzie Borden]

113. MA Dem, That's just what I suspect.

Our government knows just exactly what's going on. It's easy to keep the population in the frightened mode.

[allalone]

57. well if it's been happening a lot lately

sounds like they may as well scrap any plans to use it to take down planes because it obviously doesn't work.

[Minstrel Boy]

58. I don't understand how, at 8,500 feet, it could have

been directed into the cabin from the ground, particularly with such accuracy that it could shine into the pilot's eyes.

And using radar to track a beam of light? WTF?

[ozone_man]

63. What is the descent angle when preparing to land?

The only way I could see a land based laser getting into the pilots line of sight is during descent, where presumably, he is able to see the airport. If he can see land, then a ground based laser can see him.

[MercutioATC]

71. Planes land nose-high.

They're never in a nose-down attitude (well, not normally, anyway). If they want to descend, they reduce power.

[w4rma]

61. A good way to bring down a plane and have it blamed on "bad weather". (nt)

[goforit]

117. Ahhh....right down memory lane of Welstone.

[RamboLiberal]

65. Now Green Lasers on landings at Colorado Springs

Federal officials are investigating reports from two pilots who say bright lights were aimed from the ground into their cockpits as they headed into the Colorado Springs Airport.

Both planes landed without problems on Monday night.

Federal officials issued a warning this month that terrorists might try to down aircraft by shining powerful lasers into cockpits to blind pilots during landing approaches.

http://www.kktv.com/home/headlines/1309846.html

[Catchawave]

72. Were any fighter jets scrambled that night?

First thing I thought of when I first heard these bizzaro stories, and thinking they might have a "shiny light" to lock on their target before they lob a missile at it.

:tinfoilhat: But hey, how else can you shine a light into the cockpit?

[Dem2theMax]

77. Sounds like we're gettin' ready for 9-11 Part Two.

Just in time to get all that noise about election fraud drowned out.

Brought to you by our KKKompassionate EvilDoers in Wash. DC Amerika.

Get out that duct tape and plastic. Be the first in your neighborhood to be prepared for ANYTHING. :crazy:

[neweurope]

79. Yes... somehow this idea seems most likely. Turn demonstrating

crowds at the "coronation" into cheerleaders for the chimp. Oh my God I'm scared even sitting here in Germany...

[sarcasmo]

80. The next 9/11 will not happen until the last year of BUSHCO

In the last year of BUSHCO there will be chaos. The next 9/11 will happen in the last year so he can claim martial law and there will not be an election under martial law which he can start and never end, all hail BUSHCO.

[Lerkfish]

114. why? once martial law declared, does it matter when?

since it would continue indefinitely, he could declare in 4 years or next week. There is no political disadvantage to declaring it early....because once declared, there is no expiration date except good judgement of those declaring it...which we already know doesn't exist.

[alexisfree]

78. Battlestations...Arm photon torpedos. use the vulcan deathray its all bul

i bet bush is getting ready for another sept 11 only much sooner. I will never fly again

[Lost4words]

82. America has often tested new weapons and tech on its own

military and citizens. Theses tests cant be performed in Iraq cause there is no Iraq air force. Ant other nation might get pissed or see the radar signature of what ever did this, it almost has to be another aircraft. I dont see how a satellite could do it. It probably easier for them to cover it up here in the usa.

After all what is a few lives when the defense of the nation is at stake?
They can justify anything to themselves under the guise of national security.

86 43

[imabadman]

83. Subject: Does eye protection exist for these things? n/t

[w4rma]

92. Tinted cockpit windows? (nt)

[Ms_Mary]

84. I've never flown commercially and I'm not inclined to start now

The idea of being felt up at the airport or detained for forgetting to take my swiss army knife off my keychain was bad enough. Nevermind blinded pilots.

[The Stranger]

85. UFOs!

We are not alone.

[IA_Seth]

86. The same "UFOs" that are flying over Iranian nuclear facilities maybe! n/t

[Javaman]

87. Didn't this happen once before, earlier this year?

[maduroftime]

89. I will have to seriously consider

flying again in the near future. The coincidences are just getting a little to "coincidental" for me.
1.Presidential vacation
2.9/11
3.Presidential vacation
4.Inaguration under the suspicion of fraud
5.Lasers in cockpits

What's next? I think this is just preparation to re-direct the attention of the hypnotically coerced general population away from the obvious fraud being perpetrated on the american people for a second time.

[theHandpuppet]

90. The part I truly don't understand...

... is how anyone could actually AIM a laser with enough accuracy to hit a specific area of a fast-moving target at 8500 feet! That would bespeak more than the 100-buck backyard laser that some have suggested. Some kind of tracking device?

[this_side_up]

96. I don't see how

it would be possible to do this.

I think this is the replacement for the orange, yellow
terrah! terrah! terrah! alerts.

Next up will be buses, trains, transit malls,
shopping malls and grocery stores or groceries.

Either way, I will not fly and subject myself to
being groped or when they put in the full-body
scanner that shows everthing yet the manufacturers
have been exempted from any and all possible
injuries caused by the machines. Since BushCo
was so quick to exempt them, they must know exactly
how dangerous they can be when they malfunction.

It will be interesting to see which Republicans
wind up owning which airline.

[Algorem]

100. First time anyone thought Cleveland was too flashy.

[shadowknows69]

101. tin foil hat time

I noticed the FBI supposedly tracked it to a residential area. could this be a ruse to allow the gestapo to run a Patriot Act search frenzy of a given neighborhood that the FBI tracks one of these lazers to? There's just no way johnny with a laser pointer is hitting these planes in the cockpit. Something sinister this way comes.

[Jr_Samples]

103. An amateur astronomer could do it

Granted, the amateur would have to have a few thousand invested, but it'd be easy to set up:

a green laser beam. (e.g., http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=53141&item=3862475733&rd=1)

one of those kits to have your telescope track stars (for photography)

a GPS

a map of commercial air routes.

[shadowknows69]

104. So what branch of the Gov do you work for?

;-)

[Just Me]

112. I AM an "amateur astronomer"!!!! No freakin' way I could do it!!!

Stop messin' with us,...you silly poster *LOL*!!!

:bounce:

The precision necessary to refract a beam directly into that small window in space,....is definitely beyond any novice's grasp.

Give us a break,....please,...

[old blue]

121. I am a professional astronomer, and there's no frickin way I could do it!!

[theboss]

105. Maybe it was from a frickin' shark

With a frickin' laser beam on its frickin' head.

That's two references in a row. I'm on a roll.

[Selatius]

106. You'd probably need a computer and electronically controlled motors

To keep a beam on a jetliner steady at the distances mentioned. The laser beam would probably have to be mounted on something, preferably portable, that would be guided by the motors controlled by the computer (a good laptop perhaps). The hand is too unsteady to do it alone. 8,500 feet would require a laser that you probably wouldn't find at the average Radio Shack.

If it is accurate and powerful enough to directly point a beam into a cockpit window 8,500 feet away from the point of origin, you potentially have yourself a very potent aiming device.

[PSUDem]

107. The Laser itself is actually pretty easy to find

This site carries plans for one that might do the job:

www.amazing1.com/laser3.htm

About the tracking, I have no idea

[LeftofU]

110. It happened in Colorado Springs also.....

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~53~2625514,00.html

[njbuddy]

118. Also happened in NJ last night

I just saw it on the local news.

TRENTON, N.J. (AP) -- The FBI is investigating an incident in which lasers were apparently aimed at a pilot preparing to land at Teterboro Airport.

The pilot, who has not been identified, reported that three green lasers were pointed into his cockpit Wednesday night. They were believed to have originated in the vicinity of Willowbrook Mall in Wayne, said Bill Maer, a spokesman for the Passaic County Sheriff's Office.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/N/NJ_LASER_BEAM_AIRPLANE_NJOL-?SITE=NJHAC&SECTION=HOME

[Minstrel Boy]

119. Seven times just since Christmas

December 30, 2004, 10:53 PM EST


WASHINGTON -- The FBI, concerned that terrorists could use lasers as weapons, is investigating why laser beams were directed into the cockpits of seven airplanes in flight since Christmas.

...

The FBI is looking into two incidents in Colorado Springs, Colo., and one each in Cleveland, Washington, Houston, Teterboro, N.J., and Medford, Ore., according to federal and local law enforcement and transportation officials, some of whom spoke only on condition of anonymity.

...

"It's not some kid," said Paul Rancatore, a pilot who serves as deputy chairman of the security committee for the Allied Pilots Association. "It's too organized."

...

"What we're talking about is a fairly powerful visible light laser that has the ability to lock onto a fast-moving aircraft," Thompson said. "That's not the sort of thing you pick up at a military surplus store."

Thompson said a piece of equipment that could do the things the FBI suspects would be "fairly expensive and fairly sophisticated."

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ats-ap_us12dec30,0,878750.story?coll=ny-top-headlines

[bpilgrim]

128. so what are they waiting for?

if they are terrorist... are they trying to warn us by getting caught?

:shrug:

peace

[shadowknows69]

136. or laughing at us for chasing ghosts. n/t

[The Judged]

129. Great reason for the military to take over the passenger flight industry!

I hope we are not being prepped for some true to life disasters to start again here in the US.

Notice the timing?

Real progress being made slowly but timely in the election debacle, and suddenly doomsday is getting closer?

If I was ever wrong, then I hope it is now.

[frustrated_lefty]

130. www.thinkgeek.com

Guess what, they have a laser pointer which is visible for 2 miles. Not just the point at the end, it'd visible from point to end for the entire 2 miles. Hell, I'm buying one later this year for a presentation just to be different.

Could be wrong, but I suspect this is what people are freaking out over.

FL

[bpilgrim]

131. LINK

Features of this unit include:

* Extremely bright green laser at 532 nm wavelength
* Output power of <5mW (Class IIIa Laser Product)
* Range of approximately 9,000 ft (2600 m) in darkness
* 1.1 mm beam diameter at source
* Momentary push button switch
* Solid, heavy duty construction
* Constant wave output (as opposed to pulse output)
* Takes 2 "AAA" batteries (included)
* Class IIIa Laser
* Can be used for skypointing, projection on low clouds, signalling, detecting explosives
* 90-day warranty


more...
http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/lights/5a47/

peace

[Minstrel Boy]

132. From the Newsday story in post 119:

"What we're talking about is a fairly powerful visible light laser that has the ability to lock onto a fast-moving aircraft," Thompson said. "That's not the sort of thing you pick up at a military surplus store."

Thompson said a piece of equipment that could do the things the FBI suspects would be "fairly expensive and fairly sophisticated."

[frustrated_lefty]

135. Ask yourself this:

with a plane within a few miles, could you point at it for a few seconds? Espescially since you see the light from point to end? For the moment, I'm chalking this laser story to fear propaganda.

FL

[old blue]

138. There is no way anyone could do this by hand

Get yourself a laser pointer and stand across a large room from a dime you tape to a wall. Then see if you can hold the pointer such that the beam stays on the dime for more than a tiny fraction of a second at a time.

The angle subtended by the cockpit window at 9000 feet is much smaller than even the dime across the room. You'd need a mount for the pointer to hold it steady. But then, the plane is moving, so your mount would have to track. Would have to track a moving plane.

[old blue]

139. ok, just ran some numbers on that

To aim steadily at a cockpit window 2ft by 2ft at a distance of even 9000 ft (which is only the altitude of the planes in question, so the actual distance must be even larger), would be equivalent to aiming steadily at a dime from 200 ft away.

[Guaranteed]

140. It's pretty clear that with the distances involved, amateurs can't

do this.

[theHandpuppet]

142. That's exactly what I was thinking

It's one thing to simply operate a laser, but quite another to hit the cockpit of a fast-moving plane at 8500 feet!

[barb162]

143. industrial lasers on tripods???

[lovuian]

145. FBI Investigates Laser Beam Directed Into Aircraft Cockpit

http://www.wcpo.com/news/2004/local/12/29/laserbeams.html

The episode in Cleveland had to involve a fairly sophisticated laser
and a system that could track the airplane as it traveled 300 mph at
8,500 to 10,000 feet, Hawk said.

Hawk did not know what type of laser was directed at the airliner. He
would not identify the airline, except to say it was a commercial
flight
more...
1. They couldn't pin point where the Lazers are???

2. And this has happened repeatedly

[ladyrae416]

149. John J. Nance's book, "Blackout!"

This book also mentions flying a 747 into the World Trade Center - a full year before 9/11!!

Editorial Reviews

From Publishers Weekly
Arguably the king of the modern-day aviation thriller, Nance is in top form in this white-knuckle adventure about terrorism and heroism in the air and on land. From the jungles of Vietnam to the forests around Seattle and on several harrowing plane trips in between, FBI Agent Kat Bronsky and Washington Post reporter Robert MacCabe investigate why American jumbo jets are falling out of the sky. All the crashes have striking similarities: pilots were either killed or left blind by bright flashes that exploded just in front of the cockpit while the planes were in midair. Equally confusing is the appearance, then disappearance, of a corporate jet in the vicinity of all the crashes. And whoever is orchestrating the fatal air campaign has neither taken credit nor made any demands. After weathering many attempts on their lives by a shadowy terrorist group, Bronsky and MacCabe finally figure out what's happening: the terrorists are using a special ray gun stolen from the government to disable airplanes in flight. Their intent is to cause so much panic in the travel industry that it will disable the U.S. airline fleet. But why? The author's seventh aviation thriller (Pandora's Clock; The Lost Hostage) features, as usual, a completely new cast of characters who mix like old friends and enemies amid the non-stop action, never-say-die theatrics and stealth conspiracies. While the silly romance between MacCabe and Bronsky should have been jettisoned on takeoff, Nance continues to craft brilliantly hair-raising in-flight emergency scenes and brings this turbulent ride to a rousing, well-developed finale that comes together smoothly on final approach.

[aikido15]

152. Holy crap!

Have to read that one!